To ALL pascal coders

No, I do not use Pascal for work, I use C++

And that's already the reason why I still use Turbo Pascal. It's a friendly language that makes it easy to write a quick program without fiddling too much with makefiles, compiler options, libraries etc. I grew up with TP (I started with the first version) and still love the environment.

When I talk to my kids about programming we use Pascal ( so do many schools ) because of it's ease to use and it's very straight forward programming ... nothing fancy needed.

=====
Werner

Pascal is great as a teaching tool.  It enforces many of the constructs of good programming.  It is a relatively simple language.  

If you go back and look at why Wirth developed Pascal it was as a teaching tool.  He never intended it for serious usage so he left many of the more advanced concepts out.  I can use Pascal to demonstrate the beginner and intermediate programming constructs.  After you learn to program (not learn a language) you can write code in any language after you learn the syntax.

mlmcc

That's not what i was asking...

Why does this Pascal section exist, why not Object Pascal which is what all the free compilers use these days including Delphi (which is not free) i used Pascal and i moved on, there's a dedicated pascal section here at EE, what's it for, homework? or do people actually still use pascal to develop for their jobs?

There are free versions of Delphi out there.

Borland released some of the early versions.

> do people actually still use pascal to develop for their jobs?

Yes.  If you need an app that deals with small text files, then Pascal is ideal.  It's called horses for courses.  If you were writing a huge database app you'd possibly use COBOL  or Oracle or something that fitted the job.

And people still use DOS.  The GUI is not king of everything.

I for on elove pascal and delphi but I must admit. Even DOS has had its day with most of the IT world I see. I check this page once a week just to have a look.

I think one of Craigs points were does pascal get actually used in the work place and for that, in my opinion, sadly not that much.

"Long live Delphi" Just one more point. I love delphi but I have had to learn C cos the UK doesnt adopt Delphi the way it should.

Regards
Smurff

in Delphi's defence, i can write a 16k win32 application (console) fine, it's not DOS and it will only run under Win32, but you're not constricted to the 64k limit when you can can access up to 2gig or whatever it is..

All i am saying is, why use Pascal when free 32 bit compilers such free pascal and pascal dev exist.. in 20k you could create an array of 10 million chars, something which is not possible using Pascal (16bit)

as for small text files it too can be done in Delphi without the VCL, but back to my point, why do people still use Pascal, i assume it's for old systems that still use pascal and / or homework ;)

I personally would never go back to BP7 (which i used before moving to Delphi)

>>I personally would never go back to BP7

That's your choice. As you heard, there are people who use it to teach programming. For many of us folks it is more convenient to use a environment we are used to. No hassle of installing a new compiler, fiddling with flags etc. You know what you deal with, you know the limitations.

For the TA ... I guess there was a request somewhen to have it and it was created. You certainly noticed that it's not too busy <LOL> and yes, most of the questions are homework.

=====
Werner

Note that the TA already existed in 1997, which was in the time that Delphi 2 just hit the market and DOS and 16-bit stuff was still the majority on the market. In these days, BP was used quite a lot, because it allowed to develop DOS, DPMI and Windows (16-bit of course) applications using just one compiler. Great stuff (for the time being) indeed.

Delphi 1 - which was 16-bit - didn't strike very hard, even though it already implemented many of the higlights from today's Delphi versions. I guess the problem was that BWCC code couldn't be easily migrated to Delphi. Streaming, components, the fundament of OP, all was already in D1.

Aah, the good old times... *g*

FOR FUN !

I still use my old computer (486 SX 25Mhz w. BP7) to do 'some programming' on. Tried Linux on it, but still to slow / not much improvement. Working on a limited system keeps you 'sharp' for optimization, etc. Before I start using some big, pre-coded library (components) I first want to know how things are working, have some thoughts over it. Did a full 3D simulation environment on it before I moved to Delphi/OpenGL. Now I'm going through all kinds of RFC's to build a FTP/HTTP server to get a grip on Internet protocols, etc. When you know (a little of) the basics techniques it's easier to understand how they're working and why they're working that way. What's possible and what's not. A 'raw' system (without all kind of gadgets, API calls, etc.) is ideal for such programming. In BP7/DOS you're in control of every bit in the (ok, limited) memory. Do your DMA access, Ethernet card, mouse & keyboard tricks, etc. Delphi is great for rapid development, good looking, easy to use programs, but it takes 'the fun' out of programming (I'd rather spend 2 days coding/optimizing some inner-inner-inner loop in assembler, than moving buttons one pixel to the right, looking for 'cool' images, or trying to get the interface of that one stupid MS API call. And for asembler: just get the latest Intel docs and you can code for whatever machine you want, use every register there is, etc.

To get short: I use Delphi at work, Pascal at home !

- Rob.

Pascal is a learning language, a so called beginner's choice. Pascal (Borland) is nothing more than a museum language. You can't write 32bit programs with it. FreePascal instead create 32bit programs and can still compile Borland programs with less code corrections. That's why Pascal won't extinct.
Delphi is the choice of lazy programmers in my eyes :-) Many components and examples for windows, support of many external API's and it also works in most cases for Linux (Kylix).

But if you want to program with most effience you must use C/C++. It's the most powerful compile on earth.

Bye, TDS.

The most powerful, and thereby also the most error-prone (for human errors, not machine ones)...

About 90% of all the IT security problems we have nowadays is because of unsecured buffers which can overrun, stack corruption etc. All these problems are by far easier to control in other languages than C or C++. Newer manged environments reduce this probem a lot by doing taking the diry work away from the programmer, like memory deallocation, boundary checks etc.

We have around 12 megabytes of Pascal source. That's CAT Pascal from old Norsk Data machines. The language has Modula-2 like modules without the "uses" mechanism which does not allow modules a and b to refer to each other. And a lot of other extensions but no OO. Finding a compatible cross platform compiler to replace ours would be a nightmare. On the other hand asking a question in this forum would be pointless.

We had our app running on various Unixes in the early nineties, Windows when win95 came out and now we deliver on all Window and also on various Linux platforms. All from the same source kept on Unix and made with "make".

Frankly, at the time, Turbo Pascal DOS/Windows, BP7 and the first versions of Delphi were toys.

Only recently can Delphi run on Linux.

Commercail software takes years to become obsolete. That's why so much is written in C and why it's so buggy.

That's why languages like Perl ("you can do this in another completely different way") and Python ("that's not obscure enough") have been so successful. Quick, easy and platform independant. When we started in the eighties our Pasal was a world leader and that's why we choose it over C.

Perhaps in twenty years time, you'll post a question in the Perl area "why are you lads using such a crap language like Perl? Larry Wall has retired!"

I learnt programming in TP and BP. Also used a bit of Free Pascal. I even learnt OOP with TP. Then I learnt C in no time, and C++ also in no time. Then I started using Delphi, and I only had to learn my way around the IDE, but I already new over 90% of the language. I was even in a condition to grasp the concept of "event handlers" in no time, because I already knew about procedural types and passing proc/functs as params...
I've heard a lot of criticism about teaching programming in Pascal instead of C/C++ but being one of the alleged victims, I have no complaints.
I think that if I had learnt straight off with Delphi, I probably would have had a very hard time trying to understand a lot of stuff which, after having programmed in such a structured language, and doing everything almost from scratch (as opossed to using the VCL) is now a piece of cake.

I don't know if there are   m a n y   companies using and maintaining legacy code in Pascal. I know there are some. Perhaps that justifies the existence of this TA, or perhaps it doesn't...

But I know for sure that there's a host of schools, colleges and universities teaching basic (and not so basic) programming skills with Pascal.

And I believe that this, alone, is more than enough justification to keep this TA here.

It is indeed homework. And so what? Nobody is doing no one's else homework. Novices are   l e a r n i n g    from the experts at night time just like students (in all probability, the same as persons as the novices) are learning from the teachers during daytime.

And that, is one clear case of one generation passing on it's knowledge, wisdom and technollogy to the next generation.
And that is probably nothing less than the true key to civilization, bold as it may sound. (Just think what would have happened if the first "perhaps just a monkey" that learnt to lit a fire hadn't taught that to his offsprings or what would happen if every generation of congressmen had to write all the law from scratch, without even having a bit of Roman Law around to guide them).

So, without trying to imply that the whole civilization would be destroyed should this TA cease to exist, I still believe that even if it's "just for homework" it still is indeed important.

Of course, all this is just a humble opinion from a programmer. Don't take it for the last word in anthropollogy. And don't blame it on me if this page is taken down and civilization collapses. =)

Best regards to all:

Jack

LOL how can craig_capel contact you if his account is suspended.

And as for this thread, it's an open-ended question, it can not be closed off.

Annie just how long have you been coming to experts-exchange and what is your status on here?  

I would like to know who is threatening me so much on this board.

>>do people actually still use pascal to develop for their jobs?
Heard of legacy code?
I had worked on a commercial app that used to call fortran and pascal exes in my previous job!!
And to hide the fact that 16 bit code is used, the MS-Dos window that popped up was covered by another "window".
The reason: the code was TOO complex filled with gotos and not programmer wanted to convert it to Win32 code.
That's the story of one tiny organization somewhere in India. There would surely be MANY more.

...Shu

snehanshu - you are exactly the reason why i did not close off the other 10 questions..


Because as hard as it is for some mods to comprehend the fact people DO COME BACK WEEKS EVEN MONTHS later to answer questions / comment to them..

If this had of been closed,  snehanshu would never have posted, it's possible that he may have answered my question, but since this is not a question, he can not.

but it happens, closing threads simply means that I may have to go and ask the same question later. it's easier not to solve my problem.

tobjectpascal,
Well, I reached this thread because I was looking at craig_capel's history after reading a question in CS. Pascal is a TA I hardly visit.
I found the discussion interesting, so posted here.
It's none of my business, but since you've used my example to attack mods, I would like to say that I don't agree that waiting for a post from "some one some day" is a good reason for keeping a thread in a programming TA open for ever.
...Shu

>>it's possible that he may have answered my question, but since this is not a question, he can not.
I've been a member for hardly 6 months, but as fas as I understood the culture here, such never ending discussions have to be posted in the Lounge where there's less moderation.
And, if at all you need to post it here, it doesn't hurt to post in CS a list of questions you feel need to be kept open for some more time.
I don't think accounts are suspended just for having open questions: it happens because of how one responds to the reminders.
...Shu

Thanks Annie,
  I am not old enough at EE yet to begin hating moderators :-)
  I can understand why some mod would have had to suspend the account.
...Shu
P.S.
  Hey, if i HAD to get involved in this discussion, I could as well have posted in the CS question! I had not realized that posting here would get me involved in tobjectpascal's "war against the mods" :-)

This is not a war against the mods.

This is about being able to keep questions open in hope that one day someone will answer it.

This is about me signing up to and agreeing to something which did not state that I MUST delete any question that is not answered in X amount of time. and because of that i refuse to delete them.

If there was a new agreement, i never read it, nor did i get an email telling me to read it, i never read it so i will continue to use the old agreement for my other account.

I've no objection, but who's going to get the cheese?

Well, they better tell me how to get a refund on my $30 i gave them then...

because i refuse to be appart of this, i will not be bullied!

>>because i refuse to be appart of this, i will not be bullied!
The first thing you do after getting the new mwmbweship is post a question about craig_capel.
Then, when someone posts in his old old threads, you want use that as an example to prove strange things to mods.
And then, you want to feel you are being bullied!!
Infact, you paid $30 to tell things people no body believes or wants to listen. So, you want your money back.
...Shu

I am craig_capel.

I can understand that tobjectpascal is craig_capel.
And what I said was that you paid $30 in hope thet people would listen to your story and who knows what, but when people didn't like it, you are feeling bullied.
If you were not prepared to read other's views of your actions, you shouldn't have started your "injustice to craig_capel" campaign.
...Shu

No. you are assuming things, you are wrong.

I did not pay for this, my wife got it me as a valentines pressie, so please stop before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

>>I did not pay for this, my wife got it me as a valentines pressie, so please stop before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Then blame your wife, but don't blame us of bullying you.
Ref:
Comment from tobjectpascal
Date: 02/16/2004 04:44PM IST
Well, they better tell me how to get a refund on my $30 i gave them then...

because i refuse to be appart of this, i will not be bullied!

You're the one who involved yourself, i did not attack you now did i, go away.

going...
gone.

pascal is mostly used for teaching purpose, get students into programming with simple understandable language, and pascal is powerfull enough to do that.

Pascal is a very powerful utility.
It is easy to create readable and, easy to modify code, so if there is need to do some modifications or research, this language is very good choice.
Especialy mixed with assembler instructions.

The only weakness is memory management, and stack limit.

I've created the manager over ARJ archiver in TP 7. Capable of creating copy of working Windows 9x. The key feature is possibility to dearchive Windows using DOS and not losing long filename information. This solution has greater funcionality than partition image, because there is no need to destroy other folders. Only Windows and Program Files folder are Backed up and restored.
It's great tool created in Turbo Vision.

Thanks to this project I developed library, that gives access to long filename manipulation using standard pascal procedures and functions. That was possible by adding int 21H Dos service routine, which is diverting all standard calls to new system services implemented in windows 9x.

During battle with year 2000 problem, I created a small software solution, which added a shift between system clock and C-mos clock, giving older machines oportunity to work fine after year 2000.
The final code was created in assembler, but i prooved funcionality of the idea in pascal. It was easier to manipulate with code during development process.

Let's see... I started about 20 years ago with Turbo Pascal 3, although I'd learned Pascal at school before that time, on a mainframe system on Minix. I've been developing in Pascal ever since but am using mostly Delphi 5, Delphi 7 and Delphi 8 at this moment. (The last two for my personal projects, the first one at work.)

The thing is, while standard Pascal is very powerful and while Delphi still allows you to limit yourself to the Standard Pascal programming style, the ability to create objects just make the language so much more powerful. The re-use of objects and grouping of data with related functions makes the code more readable and easier to maintain.

Do I still write simple standard Pascal programs? Sure. Sometimes I do, but mostly because I just need to create a small console application, performing a single task. For larger projects, the use of objects just improves the speed at which I can develop the final code...

I am still a student. I think turbo pascal is a fast and easy. I think about speed. My computer is not so strong, only 850MHz and 192MB RAM, so it takes me about 40s to open Delphi but about half a second to open TP. In TP I can easily write the output to screen and take a look but in Delphi, I must use something like edit or memo (I am not talking about command app, but about normal app). In my country IO, we use TP and TC but most of us use TP. I think memory limit is have a good point, that we must I think about the better solution for a problem. It 's a part of training, I think. I myselft use Delphi in most of my App but I still have to deal alot with TP. Esp. at school.

We work with many programming languages. I use Delphi as it's less visual and allows a lot of control over what actually happens in your programs. Coding in VB or Visual C++ usually needs long winded install programs whereas Delphi can do what I need it to with less use of external components.

The .NET framework will, inevitably, obliterate the need for Delphi in the owrkplace unless borland or other companies come up with something pretty special pretty quick.

I completely agree with you my friend.