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New TAs make it more confusing?  How about this!

Posted on 2004-04-18
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Last Modified: 2013-11-16
I was chatting with NetMinder, and I think the new arranegment does NOT make sense.  Certainly, this new TA is very badly organized... Domino Admin under web development? No!  If anything, Domino Programming goes under Web Development, not Domino admin.  Domino admin could go under the old area, which had been primarily about programming questions.  I would say it was 5-10% admin questions, <5% user questions.  The old TA was somewhat busy -- active, but not overly busy, with what -- about a dozen questions a day, typically?

By breaking it apart, we dilute it into a very unbusy admin area, a still active programming area.  Plus, with the way things are buried, what admin is ever going to find this TA to post questions in?

So, here's what I propose...

Three TA's, under the same hierarchy as before:

Applications/Email/Lotus - a "group" TA, approximately where the old topic area was, and will hopefully become inactive, except for user-level questions

Applications/Email/Lotus/Administration - replaces this TA

Applications/Email/Lotus/Programming - if the mix remains the same, this is where the bulk of the questions end up

By naming them functionally instead of product-wise, I think it lifts any confuson over what goes where, and by putting them in the same hierarchy, it makes it likely that someone can recognize them and make a good decison as to where to put a question (instead of whichever one is found first).  Plus, since the /Lotus area will have very few questions, you don't end up with someone putting a non-programming question together with the programming questions, just because it is seen first and it is active.  "Demoting" the prgramming area makes the other areas more accesible.

Eventually, I would like to see the whole hierarchy move up to the Applications/Lotus instead of Applications/Email/Lotus, since the Email organization part is a non-sequitir for most of what goes on here.  Then, we would have:

Applications/Lotus
Applications/Lotus/Domino Administration
Applications/Lotus/Programming Notes-Domino
Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite

...or...

Applications/Lotus
Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino
Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino/Administration
Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino/Programming
Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite

...or maybe even...

Applications/Lotus
Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino
Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino/Administration
Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino/Programming
Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino/End User Questions
Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite


...not buried under e-Mail as it is now!  Fairly obvious, as well, is what goes where.  EE also supports "cross-linked" topics.  Today, Web Development/App Servers/Lotus Notes/Domino already takes you to Applications/Email/Lotus Notes/Domino (the renamed "old" topic area).  We could add Programing/Web Development/Lotus Domino area, but clicking on it would take you straight to Applications/Lotus/Programming Notes-Domino (or Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino/Programming).

What d'y'all think?

Best regards,
qwaletee


P.S. I apologize for the seemingly reversed puntuation in teh question subject, but I thought it presented the idea better.

P.P.S. This question is cross-referenced in http:Q_20958342.html (http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/Email/Lotus_Notes_Domino/Q_20958342.html), but I am keeping the main discussion here, if only to build a little interest in the now-empty TA.
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Question by:qwaletee
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by:CRAK
CRAK earned 110 total points
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I do like the idea of having smartsuite with notes/domino TA's together under Lotus: the reason why I'm currently ranked #1 in smartsuite is that to many questions are misposted notes ones (being a PE now, that'll come to an end!).

Can't decide on the number of Notes/Domino related TA's though or worse: where to put them. Personally I'd love to have them together, but questionners ("Askers") probably have their own logic to find the right spot in EE.
Lots of people equal Notes to mail. Others think is part of the Smartsuite; a different sub TA of apps. A number of users have trouble with web development in Notes and (perhaps) desperately post their questions in a wrong TA there. And then there's Admin (as recognised now).

I do think that the askers (first time visitors etc.) should benefit best of any new structure. We already know our way around!
Just for fun: act like a 1st time visitor with an Admin question. Start at the homepage and don't look at the "all topics" area. Where would you go....?

In your cross referenced post, you mentioned "aliasses" for TA's. That would certainly be a good thing to continue, but aren't we drawing too much attention with our relatively little TA's if it gets aliassed in 2, 3 or perhaps 4 places?

500pt.... you consider it a though one, not an ungent one, don't you!
I agree!  ;-))
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by:RanjeetRain
RanjeetRain earned 200 total points
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Qwaletee,

Good attempt! Actually if we look at the emtire TA hierarchy, the whole hierarchy looks confusing at places. But, thats the way it is! Good thing is that and that we can find the stuff we are looking for, and that should be the objective. Basically to sort out this one, we have to be clear about our goals. What are our objectives? We have three of them:

   1. To bring 3 distinct areas in Lotus Domino domain to existence
   2. To make them appear at right places (so to allow them to be intuitively accessible)
   3. To make them mix well with the existing TA hierarchy

Step 1 is done(?), thanks to the keenness Netminder has shown. We are doing step 2. But the real problem is step 3. There are two things we might opt for. A product wise grouping, like you suggested in your group 2. But unfortunately, here at EE we do not have a trend of grouping TA's after products rather we group them by functionality. So, keeping in mind the existing trend, we should opt for this arrangement:

1)      /Applications/EMail/Lotus_Notes/                        For User questions (Exisiting)
2)      /Web/Application_Servers/Lotus_Domino/                  For admin questions
3)      /Web/Web_Servers/Lotus_Domino/                        Alias to (2)
4)      /Programming/Programming_Platforms/Domino_Development/            For development questions
5)      /Web/WebDevSoftware/Lotus_Domino/                        Alias to (4)
6)      /Applications/Lotus_Smart_Suite/                        No change

Or may be we can approach it in the novelest of all the ways.

7)      /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Notes_Client
8)      /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Administration
9)      /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Development

Or we can we can do all of the above with hierarchy in the second group being the "original" location and hierarchy in first group being all the aliases. Additionally, we can create HOME/Groupware/Lotus_Domino/ to accomodate "everything else" e.g. Sametime, Domino Document Manager, Domino Workflow, Websphere etc.





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by:RanjeetRain
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CRAK, I'm gonna get points for it (so the more the better) ;-)
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by:CRAK
CRAK earned 110 total points
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Yeah... sure!
<GRIN>
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by:qwaletee
ID: 10863147
There's a VERY good reason for bringing them together... you can search against a topic area and its subtopics, but against disparate topic areas.

The aliases are already there, at least in one case for Domino.  They are used pretty thoroughly throughout all of EE's TA's.  There would be no problem aliasing the old:

/Applications/Email/Lotus_Notes

...to the new:

/Applications/Lotus/Notes_Domino
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by:pgloor
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My vote:
7)     /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Notes_Client
8)     /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Administration
9)     /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Development

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by:qwaletee
ID: 10903443
Eh, then you'd have to put EMAIL under GROUPWARE, and I don't think that flies.
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by:CRAK
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I'm afraid that yet another TA, like notes client, will only confuse people.
Currently people may have questions regarding something that they can't classify as "Domino Admin" or "Notes/Domino". I've been creating a list of questions to move to Admin... some are just hard to decide on.
For "ordinary" users it'll only be harder. The other day there was someone asking for a paperclip button to add an attachment to e-mail. If a user assumes there must be some setting that only an administrator can handle, we'll have a post in the wrong TA. If he/she expect a developer to bring a solution: same thing.
And be honest about it: how many questions do we get regarding "Notes Client"?

Also considerthe location of Smartsuite. Since a large number of notes users (not Admin or Dev) consider Notes a part of Smartsuite, I prefer to keep these close together.
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by:CRAK
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qwaletee,

No comment has been added to this question in more than 21 days, so it is now classified as abandoned.
That means that I'm supposed to make a recommendation for cleaning up.
But what should I do? I have good reasons to split amongs the participating experts, but since this is not really an Admin related question and of of no use to visitors, we might as well delete it.
And you probably intend to provide feedback on your survey to Netminder....

Please close or advice.

CRAK
Page Editor
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by:
CRAK earned 110 total points
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I have been asked as PE for Lotus TA's to contribute to a list of TA's / sub TA's that, based on the questions we see or otherwise deem appropriate. Aliasses were not mentioned.
Based on qwaletee's earlier suggestion, added with (based on a recent single event) Smartsuite apps. split up, I came up with following:

01) Applications/Lotus
02) Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino
03) Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino/Administration
04) Applications/Lotus/Notes-Domino/Programming
05) Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite
06) Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite/123
07) Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite/WordPro
08) Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite/Freelance Graphics
09) Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite/Approach
10) Applications/Lotus/SmartSuite/Organizer

Should I mention "WebSphere" or should that go under "Programming". I have no knowledge at all about it.
Anything else?
I've been told to feel free and play God of EE TA's for a few minutes..... ;-))

I considered Notes/Domino "Application" rather than "Web" (like html, js, css or php) or "Programming" (like VB, C or Java).

I need your suggestions by Monday. I'll delete this question and refund a day later.
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by:Struang
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ID: 11294952
As a newbee I feel inclined to join in this discussion.

I only stumbeled apon /Web/Lotus_Domino_Admin/ becuase a someone suggested moving a question to it from the Applications/EMail/Lotus_Notes/

I would be tempted to go with something along the lines of (maybe useing IBM instead of Lotus so the strucutre can continue down through sametime, websphere, Tivoli, and DB2

01) Applications/IBM
02) Applications/IBM/Notes-Domino
03) Applications/IBM/Notes-Domino/Administration
04) Applications/IBM/Notes-Domino/Programming
05) Applications/IBM/SmartSuite
06) Applications/IBM/SmartSuite/123
07) Applications/IBM/SmartSuite/WordPro
08) Applications/IBM/SmartSuite/Freelance Graphics
09) Applications/IBM/SmartSuite/Approach
10) Applications/IBM/SmartSuite/Organizer
11) Applications/IBM/WebSphere
12) Applications/IBM/WebSphere/Administration
13) Applications/IBM/WebSphere/Programming

Can we then not get the old TA's to display a "We Have Moved" sign

I certainly like the idea of the grouping together of the products and the seperation of Admin and development/programming questions
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by:madheeswar
ID: 11385435
Guys,

Frankly speaking, I like to have all the Notes issues(Admin/Client/Web) in one TA. IT makes easy to browse in single place.Now it became difficult to open another browser and look for admin questoins.

I did not liked the idea of separating Lotus Notes into 2 TA's.

If possible place a new TA with all Lotus Notes related questoins at one place.

Thanks
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by:RanjeetRain
RanjeetRain earned 200 total points
ID: 11385989
>> IT makes easy to browse in single place.Now it became difficult to open another browser and look for admin questoins.

The perspective of participating experts! Ease of use in answering question. One TA means, easy accessibilty of questions at one place. Consolidated points in one TA and so on. But where does a question asker go?

Easy it will be if it were one TA, isn't it? Then why not have just one TA for all questions people ask. No pain for asker to decide where to ask a question, no pain for experts; they can enjoy it all at one place.

It is about individual perspective too. Someone will not mind 10 windows as long as it is individual thread window. That is justified and not inconvenient because it earns money. But one additional window is a pain in the back! Because, that is an overhead. What do you call that syndrome?

Browsing many pages in one window is just a matter of using an add-on like MyIE2. But, infact, true experts don't need that even. I have a page which offers me a control panel and allows me to select which TAs I want to check and how frequently I want to check and whether I want a manual advancement mechanism or automatic and blah blah blah. It works just like another webpage and requires no installation. Its that simple!

>> If possible place a new TA with all Lotus Notes related questoins at one place.

That is always possible. A majority of questions are still asked in the old/original TA.

What to say when a person asks a Lotus Domino question in MS Access TA or Lotus SmartSuite TA. Should be club them all together?

What do we want? We want to build a knowledgebase here? Or we want to offer the participating experts ease-of-use? (Ever heard of QuickPost?)
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by:madheeswar
ID: 11386181
>>What do we want? We want to build a knowledgebase here? Or we want to offer the participating experts ease-of-use? (Ever heard of QuickPost?)<<

Knowledgebase and ease of use for all users and not only for experts.

Look at endusers point of view. There are lot of people who doesn't have knowledge of Lotus Notes and they are unable to decide where to post. Even they don't know that there is Domino Admin TA(Ofcourse it will take some time to know).

If you are talking about a single software which has all the capabilities let us have in the same way. So, Lotus did not differentiated Admin and Client and Web as three different categories. It is all in a single umbrella. So, I prefer either to have a single TA like old verision or create a new TA like:
Lotus \Development
Lotus \Admin
or
Lotus\Client
Lotus\Web
Lotus\Admin
Lotus\Others

By Seeing the above, it is very difficult to go each TA and browse for answers. And if I want to search on any keyword, I have to go individually in each TA and search or I need to Select in All Topic Areas.

And if you are thinking where this TA to be placed,  I prefer it to call under Application.

So, let us maintain in a Single TA. But it should not be in Email TA.
It should be like
Applications/LotusNotesDomino

>>What to say when a person asks a Lotus Domino question in MS Access TA or Lotus SmartSuite TA. Should be club them all together?<<
Yes you are true. When I first visited this site, I had very difficulty to know where Lotus NOtes is. I never thought it will be under Email.


And the biggest questoin is how many new questoins are posted under DominoAdmin? When you separate TA's you should be aware of how many new quesoitns will be asked per day.
We know that a new TA has been added in WEB called Domino_Admin. From the day it is implemented, how many new questoins has been asked?
We will be getting questions every day in Programming (Client and Web) and a very few questoins per week in Admin.

So, what is the use of having a separate TA for Admin.

Let us have a totally new TA for Lotus Notes Domino, which  will have all the quesoitns related to it. Except Smartsuite.


Thanks.
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by:RanjeetRain
RanjeetRain earned 200 total points
ID: 11386336
I do not think clubbing everything together is a solution.

It is possible to search in a certain TA/a TA and its sub-TAs/All TAs.

There are many TAs at EE where the average is less than what can be mentioned here. So, if no representation sounds better than some presence, should we drop them? Lotus SmartSuite has had 10 question is this month so far. Why not drop it? Why not?

If I have a problem with my JavaScript code, why on earth would I ask it in Lotus Notes TA? Or if my Java code got a bug why would I ask it in Lotus Notes TA? People should be driven by the need. If I need help with LotusScript I know which place to go. If I need help with JavaScript I know which place to go. If I need help with administration I know which place to go. I do not need to spend even 10 seconds if I have to take a bus for some destination as long as i know where I have to go. I can choose instatntly even from 1000 routes. But if I do not know where I want to go, or which routes buses ply on, i will be standing like a stupid. If you do not know what you are asking, sorry, you need to get better. People can help you solve a problem that you know well. If you do not know what your problem is, I am sorry for you!
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by:RanjeetRain
RanjeetRain earned 200 total points
ID: 11386627
>> So, Lotus did not differentiated Admin and Client and Web as three different categories.

Lotus does have three different type of clients.
1. For end users aka Notes
2. For developers aka Domino Desginer
3. For administrators aka Domino Administrator
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by:madheeswar
ID: 11386713
You tell me one thing. Did you not encountered people who are asking without knowledge in LND?

Do you think they are clear what they are asking? Every person is not necessarily be as good as you.
Every one visitng this site not necessarily know where to place a question.

I know it is having different types. But it is called Lotus Notes Domino.That is my point.

if you are so much interested to have different TA's, go ahead. But in proper locations.

As Qwaletee pointed out. Domino_Admin is in wrong place and same to Lotus Notes(in Email).

So, first confirm in which Main category you want to place.

Think for a while and forget about busses, categories, etc.,.

I want to outsource to company to develop in SAP and LN.

Your company supports only LN. If another company B offers both, then where will I go? Which is easy for him to communicate, maintain relatoinship?

I am not objecting that you should not have different categories. But if everything is in a single TA and called as LOTUS NOTES DOMINO, there won't be confusion for users like me where to go.

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by:madheeswar
ID: 11386977
In SAP we have different modules.

But is it covered in one TA. What about that? Else we can have as Oracle.
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by:RanjeetRain
RanjeetRain earned 200 total points
ID: 11387330
There are two ways in life to move. (1) Down and (2) Up. First one is easy. A lot of people take that route because that is easy. They lead a comfortable life, but are never counted among people who made a difference. But, some people have the energy/stamina/skills/vision to think beyond the obvious. They are the ones who choose to take the second path. Clearly, they are the ones who make the difference.

Ignorance is not a sin, the lack of will to learn is.
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by:RanjeetRain
RanjeetRain earned 200 total points
ID: 11387356
EE is not ***free of defects***

The hierarchy of TA and placement of certain TAs is ofcourse a debtatable issue. Possibly there is a lot of scope of improvement in it.

And most people are concerned about the right placement of TAs here than the existence or non-existence of it.

New TAs for SAP: No one bothered about it. If you do, please post a question in Experts Input/Feedback/New Topic Area. You will get your due consideration.
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by:madheeswar
madheeswar earned 40 total points
ID: 11387387
Arey yaar!!!!

thum hum ko dant rahe ho kya?

For me anything is OK.

And yourself has recommended:
7)     /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Notes_Client
8)     /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Administration
9)     /Groupware/Lotus_Domino/Development

And I recommended:

Lotus \Development
Lotus \Admin

And I did not opposed for it. So what made you so angry???????????????????????

Today Ranjeet is upset with his work in office. So, he is taking on me.


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by:RanjeetRain
RanjeetRain earned 200 total points
ID: 11387584
>> Today Ranjeet is upset with his work in office. So, he is taking on me.

Thas right :( I caught hold of the right guy, isn't it ;-)
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by:madheeswar
madheeswar earned 40 total points
ID: 11387615
I became bakra here.

Poor madheeswar..

Ranjeet cool down. If you are upset then come to Bangalore and spend some time in this cool atmosphere.


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by:RanjeetRain
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ID: 11387764
Mady, can you make it an official (read all expense-paid) trip? Ask your company to hire me for two three days for technical consultation ;-)
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by:madheeswar
ID: 11387778
Ok. It can be done. After your visit they will throw me out.
Instead give me some time, I will call you personally.
OK.
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by:RanjeetRain
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Okay, done!
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by:qwaletee
ID: 11392661
I vote with Ranjeet... we're not here to help someone who just wants a free ride, and organizing the questions actually makes it EASIER to browse and search.  After all, the search engine here is not that great, and at least by restricting the search to category, it will be easier in teh future to weed stuff out.

I'm going to give most of the points to Ranjeet.
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by:RanjeetRain
ID: 11393074
Thanks Q! I really hope we all continue to work to make Domino a better known and mass use product!

Thanks to everyone for participating. Participation from everyone helps brings out the best conclusion!
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by:CRAK
ID: 11393520
But how (and who) are we taking our results up to Admin?
Good that we have come to some kind of a conclusion, but if no one else knows.....
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by:qwaletee
ID: 11393561
Hey, shouldn't that be your job?
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by:RanjeetRain
ID: 11396170
I will email Netminder to bring his attention to this.
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by:CRAK
ID: 11396331
Not neccessarily. I help people to find their way in EE and get their questions answered. You've already contacted NetMinder, but community support is another good place to drop our opinion.
But its fine with me if you want me be the messenger... I may have a few more contacts.

It's hard to tell if we have all a agreed on a certain structure though. You have accepted my suggestion as answer, but instead of a "Lotus" as TA "IBM" is also mentioned. Good point if websphere gets included....
Most important conclusion is that we would like all of the Notes subtopics together in order to search these together and to have Smartsuite on the same level and close to Notes to reduce the number of misposted questions.

In short: what do you want me to suggest on behalf of all participants here?
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by:CRAK
ID: 11396338
That was typed when Ranjeet had not yet posted.....
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by:RanjeetRain
ID: 11396358
It makes sense to group Notes and other end-user applications at one place. IBM or Lotus but they should be under one main TA. Websphere and Java seem to be the next thing IBM is gearing up for. So, forward thinking would be to have a TA for WebSphere as well (I'm not sure if there is any at the moment).
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by:CRAK
ID: 11396379
Perhaps websphere questions are now dropped under java?

I do think we should summarize our conclusion before we ask anyone to read all of this.... I bet NetMinder has better/more things to do! ;-)
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by:RanjeetRain
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Agree to that! So, are you doing that :-)
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I thought I just asked the questionner to summarize....
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