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Moving Groupwise 5.5 from old hardware to new hardware

Posted on 2004-05-02
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Last Modified: 2012-06-27
Old hardware.
Netware SBS 5.0 sp6 w Groupwise 5.5 sp5

New hardware
Same Netware.  Same Groupwise.

How do we get the email messages, calendars, and address book from the old system to the new, as quickly as possible?

Do we move post offices?

Do we create the new server in the same tree/context/server name and simply reinstall the OS, Groupwise, move the po and domain info over and reinstall the agents followed by tricky grafting?

The TIDs I've come across leave a lot to be desired, unfortunately.

TIA
Luke
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I have not really dealt with GroupWise in a SBS environment, so I'm not sure this would work. However, what I would look at doing is putting the new server in the same NDS Tree as the original one, and adding the GroupWise as a Secondary Domain of the existing GroupWise system.

Once that was set up, I would create my POs in the Secondary Domain and Move the existing user mailboxes from the Primary to the Secondary. Once everyone and everything (Distribution Lists, Resources, etc.) was moved, I would Promote the Secondary Domain to Primary, then delete the now-Secondary Domain.

I've only done this with regular NetWare and standalone (i.e. not part of the OS install) installs of GroupWise. I have no direct experience with SBS so I don't know if there's something about SBS that would prohibit this.
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by:pgm554
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Get a hold of a copy of Server Magic or Portlock.You can copy the ENTIRE server to new hardware without losing anything.After the copy ,just install the correct device drivers for the new hardware.
A no brainer..
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berni1234
10010617 is a little too vague.  10007622 (and 10009349) is much better at explaining the details i'm looking for but even then it left out key elements (like you need to use ncopy, ndir or gwbackup? to keep the permissions etc. intact across servers)
10024917 is promising.  If it were only our own server to mess with, I'd go for it.  Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of messing with a production server.  In case anything goes wrong, we would have 2 disfunctional boxes.  Hence we're looking for a failsafe approach - create an identical box as far as the users are concerned, but if it fails we can simply put the other one back and continue on with life until a solution is found.
2950390 is interesting.  I am acutally using 10009349 and 10007622 in our test lab.  Unfortunately they both leave you hanging wanting for more.  Why do I need to change the NDS User Object ID?  And what's with the last line - "Next step will be to merge this new domain with your main GroupWise system".  Huh?  This is my main Groupwise Domain!
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PsiCop:

Your solution appears to be a very elegant one.
One that is very interesting to me.
One that I might actually risk doing in a production environment because it seems foolproof.
However, the greatest number of servers I've ever played with in Netware at a time, has been one.  :)
I've tried adding a server into the same tree.
But then what?
There are no shares on it.
No volumes I can access.
Kinda stuck there.

Luke
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pgm554

There are a lot of probs on the old server that they want to leave behind, configuration, weird stuff happening that may or may not be attributed to the various pieces of software and modules that were installed on that system over the past 6 years.  Besides, the budget has already been spent on this one.  Dropping another $400 on Portlock or $650 on Server Magic will be an absolutely last resort.  And if I humbly go that way, you'll get full marks.
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Luke,

Of course it doesn't have "shares"...its NetWare, not Windoze! :-)

Seriously, tho, the term "shares" is a Windoze-specific one. Now, if you had NetWare v6 with Native File Access Protocol (NFAP) installed, then it could *emulate* Windoze shares (think of the Windoze aspect of NFAP as "SAMBA for NetWare"), but that's not available on NetWare v5.0 (there is an upgrade to NetWare v5.1 to put NFAP on it).

The server DOES have a filesystem. GroupWise is using it. If GroupWise is installed in Client/Server mode, then you may not see it thru GroupWise, but it IS there.

At the server's console prompt, type --> VOLUMES

That will list the Volumes (filesystems) that the server has mounted. One will be "SYS:", I can't predict what the others will be (hopefully there is at least one more).

To see the filesystem(s), use a workstation with NetWare Client 32 installed (do *not* use the garbageware Micro$oft Client for NetWare, it is deliberately crippled by Redmond) and MAP a drive letter to a Volume. You can accomplish that by right-clicking on the red N in the System Tray and selecting Novell Map Network Drive (note that I am making a number of assumptions concerning your workstations, their OS, what you have loaded on them, and how your network is set up) and browsing to the server Volume. Naturally, you need to be authenticated to the NetWare environment using credentials that have appropriate access (note that if you have to change filesystem permissions, then unlike Windoze, such permission changes are immediately effective without having to log back in).

Now, on to the core of your concern. I confess to never having used the SBS version of NetWare. v5.0 is so old that its been EOLed, as well. Hopefully, during the install, you will be prompted as to if you want to set up the new server in its own tree, or if you want to install it into an existing tree. This is the point where you would install it into the existing NDS tree, and thus create an environment where the two servers can exchange information fairly freely. When you installed GroupWise subsequent to installing NetWare, you would tell it you wanted the GroupWise to be part of an existing GroupWise System as a Secondary Domain.

Again, I have never worked hands-on with the SBS version of NetWare, so I do not know if there is something about SBS that will keep you from doing these things. They are perfectly possible in the regular version of NetWare, but with SBS you trade some flexability away for getting all those apps in one bundle.

If SBS proves not to offer these choices, then you may still be able to accomplish what you want to do. I know the GroupWise v6.5 documentation outlines a procedure to transfer mailboxes between two GroupWise systems on different NDS trees. I would visit the GroupWise v5.5 documentation page (http://www.novell.com/documentation/lg/gw55/index.html) and start searching there for a similar procedure.
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The problem with SBS 5.0 is that you cannot have more than one server in a tree.With 6.x and above you can.

As for the "funkiness" of the install ,remember that 5.0 was almost a beta release(first real attempt at IP only from Novell)and was replaced in less than a year by 5.1.A lot of the issues with 5.0 will never go away simply because they quit supporting it years ago.

As for Server Magic,try Ebay,you may be able to pick up a cheap copy.SM 3 should work with 5.0 as long as all volumes are traditional.
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Ah. Well, there ya go, Luke. I was afraid of something like that. That is a hazard in continuing to use such an old version of the product.

Have you considered SBS v6.5?
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No. Unfortunately there are no more funds in the budget this year.  We have to work with what we have.  A brand spanking new server, with an older NOS.

On the bright side of things, I can get SBS up and running in a couple of hours, with Groupwise receiving and sending email through the GWIA (another question coming up for this one - it is a huge smtp relay hole - one that we're getting around by simply throwing unsolicited email into the bit bucket).

I'm going to try the 2nd server in the tree.  I'll get back to you where I'm with that.  Later 2nite I'll be doing more "brute force" stuff pushing the email into an identical tree|context|server_name with hopefully the results we're looking for.

thanks guys
Luke
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PsiCop:

On the 2nd server in the same tree theme, since I'm trying to replace the original server, after placing the "temporary" server in the same tree, I was given a licensing error.  Will I still be able to attempt the post office shuffle with such an error or do I need more licenses?

Luke
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Well, the problem is that you can't have more that one NetWare v5.0 SBS in the same tree, as pgm554 stated above. If you continue what you're doing, you run the risk of screwing up licensing for BOTH servers. I urge caution in the extreme.

Have you investigated migrating the mailboxes between completely separate GroupWise systems on different trees? Like I said, GroupWise v6.5 has a procedure for that, and research into the v5.5 documentation may yield a similar procedure for that version. Or the procedure described in the v6.5 documentation (page 199 of the Admin Guide, as I recall) may work.

Another possibility, altho it is very crude and would not be viable (in a time and effort sense) if you have a lot of users, would be to use the Archive FID Editor. Basically, people on the current system would Archive everything, then you would copy the Archives to the new system, fix the GroupWise FID with the editor, and then they could unArchive what they wanted. The issue here is that you can only move the contents of each individual mailbox, you lose tracking information, global Distribution Lists, etc. etc. But you'd preserve E-Mail and calendar items. The viability of this option depends on how many people you have and how much time you have. The Archive FID Editor is available for free from Novell (http://support.novell.com, search on "FID editor").

I know your money is tight, but use of such old tools (NetWare v5.0, GroupWise v5.5) is really limiting your options - SBS looks like it limits you even more. With v6.5 of GroupWise, you could support IMAP on the POA and use that as a migration path. There are some MAPI-based mail migration tools, but honestly I can't think of a one right this moment.
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PsiCop:

I was able to add the server to the tree.  I didn't add any licenses (didn't have any to add).  I was able to log in with a workstation and see the sys: volume on the second server but was not able to log in with a second workstation (licensing) to push over the Software Distribution directory.  I suppose Novell might be able to assist us with this one, knowing that we simply wish to push the mailboxes from the old server to the new and then get rid of the old server, but the time and effort required is quickly approaching non-efficient limits here and from my limited knowledge of EOL products, they may not be even able to (or allowed to) help w legacy product like GW 5.5 and SBS 5.0.

Looks like the brute-force methods (TIDs 10007622 and 10009349) may be the only way if we wish to build a brand new server.  I'll get back to you how the bf methods went.

There is of course Server Magic or Portlock as suggested by pgm554.  Unfortunately, Ebay doesn't currently have either software for sale.  If anyone knows about an older version of either for sale, please let me know.  In the end, we may have to spend the extra funds to get the solution we desire.

I've come across some posts here and there about migrating between trees.  I'll try that avenue as well and let you know.

thanks for all your help folks!
Luke
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I think GroupWise v5.5 is still supported. I'm sure that NetWare v5.0 is not, however.
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I don't know if the migration wizard will work on SBS, but I consider that to be the preferred method for hardware migration...
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The migration wizard that came with SBS 5.0 only will upgrade from 3 or 4 to 5.  Not 5 to 5.  Is this the migration wizard you speak of?

On a side note, I am trying to back up the MAIL data on the old server, then bring the tape to the new server and restore the MAIL directory.  At which point i will be applying the methods of TIDs 10007622 and 10009349.  Again, the problem that I saw with applying these two methods literally, was in "xcopying" the MAIL directory from the original tree/context/server over to a Win98 workstation and then xcopying back the MAIL directory to a duplicate "new" tree/context/server was that the permissions wound up to be all "admin" centered (ie. different than the permissions in the original MAIL directory).  This allowed the admin account access to admin email, however everyone else came back with "820c" errors which led me to comparing the permissions between the old and the new servers.  Wouldn't be a problem if every user had only 1 file to change.  No such luck in Groupwise.  They have literally thousands of attachments in associated "attachment" folders.

I am led to understand that the permissions problem is because of the "xcopy" which loses all the important attributes during the copying process.  I am also led to understand that a "true" backup of the files, and a subsequent restoration will retain those permissions.  I am using Arcserve 6.0 for backup/restore.  Will this software backup method finally get me my desired result?

Luke
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Yes, using XCOPY to a platform like Windoze, which has file permissions that are a crude subset of those in NetWare, will destroy information like file ownerships and permissions. However, such destruction is impossible to avoid in any case, since you are moving from one tree to another - the uderlying account information (specifically, Object IDs) has changed even if the names remain the same (.Joe.Some.Company.Tree1 is not the same as .Joe.Some.Company.Tree2).

However, it shouldn't matter, as the GroupWise NLMs run as "root" (to borrow a *NIX term) on the servers. Thus they don't really care about ownership of the files.

The only time the ownership comes into play, as I recall, is if you're using Direct Connect mode for the clients (which you really shouldn't be using) instead of Client/Server mode. Direct Connect mode is a holdover from GroupWise v4.x (and earlier) days where the GroupWise client directly accessed and manipulated the GroupWise system files. Inevitably, this led to database corruption and comcommitant system stability issues. Starting in GroupWise v5.0, Client/Server mode was introduced, where the GroupWise client talks over an IP connection (TCP:1677) to the GroupWise NLM, and the GroupWise NLM handles accessing and manipulating the GroupWise system files.

Client/Server mode eliminated the problem you're seeing now (820C errors) as well as giving the admin a generally more stable and reliable environment. Apparently, some 5 or 6 years after it was introduced, you're still not using it, for reasons I can only imagine. Step 0, before migration, is to get your GroupWise clients on Client/Server mode, using a DNS name for the server. Then when you move the files, ownership won't matter, and re-directing the clients is merely a matter of changing a DNS entry.
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If you want to copy files and permissions to another tree ,try nwcopy ,a shareware program by Nick Payne.

It's $50.00 and does an excellent job.Search Google for nwcopy.
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The current migration wizard (or at least version 6, the last one I used) will migrate 5.x to 5.x and 6.x to 6.x.  Don't know if the current one will migrate 5 to 5.
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xcopy isn't good because it doesn't copy file system trustee data.  

I'm not sure if it's still around with 5.x, but 4.x had a good dos-prompt tool called ncopy, which was essentially an xcopy for NetWare that retained trustee data.  Don't know why it went away, other than the over-reliance on gui tools.  It was great because it turned the copy function over to the server(s) rather than passing the data through the client PC.

In my opinion, the migration wizard is the best tool for a hardware migration (it doesn't only do OS version upgrades and upgrades from Windoze to NetWare) because it'll handle things a straight copy, of any kind, won't.
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ShineOn:

So VERY close.  You're right about the latest version.  7.1 won't even touch Netware 5.0.  The only other download is Migration Wizard 6.5.  That one ALMOST did it.  Unfortunately the target server has to be Netware 5.1!!!  I was SO hoping it wouldn't care, but it did :)  

This from the documentation for Migration wizard 6.5:

"Valid destination servers must be running NetWare 5.1, 6.0, or 6.5 if migrating from a NetWare 3, 4, or 5 source server."

Apparently the version we need, is Migration Wizard 6.  It WILL handle migrations from 5.x to 5.x, or in our case 5.0 to 5.0!

This from the documentation for Migration Wizard 6:

"The source server is the NetWare server that contains the files, volumes, and NDS objects that will be copied to the NetWare destination server. Valid source servers can be running NetWare 4.11, 4.2, 5.0, 5.1, or 6."

Where can I get this puppy?  It apparently came on Netware 6.0 cds...

Gotta get me some!  :)

Thanks for all your help people!
Luke
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PsiCop:

How do I change the current server's Groupwise from direct mode to client/server mode, if that is in fact what the Groupwise is running?

How can I tell?

TIA!
Luke
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ShineOn:

Found MigrtWzd.exe.
Here:
http://www.arelcentrum.cz/download.html
Beauty.
Keep you all posted.

wfc
Luke
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In ConsoleOne, go to the GroupWise View and select the Post Office object (not the POA object). Right-click and select Properties. On the GroupWise tab, select Post Office Settings. The Access Mode setting specifies how clients may connect to the Post Office - the 3 options, in order of reliability and security, are "Client/Server Only", "Client/Server and Direct", and "Direct Only".

I suspect your setting is either "Direct" or "Client/Server and Direct".

You can set (or keep) it on "Client/Server and Direct" while changing the GroupWise client software to use Client/Server. [Note that I am I *assuming* that you have TCP/IP bound to the server and the workstations] You can force the client into Client/Server mode by putting the /ip command-line parameter on the icon. For more ideas, see Novell TID #10053227.
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ShineOn:

Does the act of using the Migration Wizard, kill the old server?

Ie. Worse case scenario.  I go thru the entire process and something is NOT working as it should be on the NEW server.  Can I simply power the NEW server down and power up the old one and keep going?

BTW, the test lab migration didn't go as planned.  The SOURCE server had NDS issues (I'd been adding servers to its tree, removing them, they're not around anymore, etc.).  The NDS migration stopped at 90% and then reverted back to its old self.  Will recreate two servers w Groupwise on primary, rerun the migration and and let you all know.

tfayh
Luke
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PsiCop:

1. How does changing the settings on the Post Office object affect the current server?
Ie. Will mail keep coming in?
Will mail still go out?

2. Can I back out of this change safely?
Ie. If I do it and I don't like the results can I simply change back to the old way?

tia
Luke
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PsiCop:

Beautiful.  You were ABSOLUTELY correct about the NDS rights on the old server and its need to be in CLIENT/SERVER mode exclusively.  G'job! :)

I was able to create a test server in the lab, where I went from a mixed environment (CLIENT/SERVER and DIRECT), to  CLIENT/SERVER model only.  The only difference it appears for the client was that Groupwise logins had to point to an <ip_address and port 1677>.  Other than that logins went smooth.  Before I copied the MAIL dir, I also went into the PO/Membership area and clicked on "Remove Access Rights".  I figured this was important if I was to get rid of the rights problems, allowing me to xcopy the files over to the new server.  As long as I was working in CLIENT/SERVER mode, the access rights missing, should make no difference.  It didn't :)

I then created a second tree/context/server.  Worked it according to TID 10009349 and 10007622.  I xcopied the MAIL and the GRPWISE subdirs to a workstation from the OLD server.  I then logged into the NEW server.  Xcopied the dirs over to the NEW server.  Installed a base GRPWISE installation according to 10009349.  Loaded nwadmin32.  Connected to the newly copied GWDOM (mail\gwdom).  Able to see the users in Groupwise view.  Grafted the domain, post office, and users.  Installed MTA and PO.  Installed GWIA.  Changed all references to OLD UNC paths in MTA and PO and GWIA to the NEW paths.  Started the agents and GWIA.  YES!!!  All the users can now see their email!

I am at the last part of TID 10009349.  It is asking me to do the following:

1. Rename the NDS User Object ID
2. Synchronize
3. Test the accounts (New User Object ID w Old Mailbox ID)
4. Rename Mailbox ID to whatever you renamed the NDS User Object ID to?
5. Synchronize

I think this is tied in with the errors I'm still seeing on the MTA.  The MTA currently is reporting that it had an "Error validating PO members (NWDSCode:-603).

I'll be doing trial and error on the lab servers.  But if someone knows why the above is needed, an explanation would be greatly appreciated.

tia
Luke
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PsiCop:

I believe the promised land is in sight.  I have the users logging in, receiving email and accessing their calendars in the new tree.

I managed to get the MTA going with the help of TID10067084 ("Groupwise POA stops communicating with the domain MTA via the MTP process").  Whew!

My last question regarding the whole process, is do I have to rename the NDS User Object and subsquently the Mailbox ID as outlined in TID10009349?  I don't want to have the users logging in as someone else - the consequence of renaming the NDS User Object.  I'd also like to avert having to have them sending as someone new - the consquence of renaming the Mailbox ID.  Unless there is something I've missed...

Another thing I found during this process was that in order to log into the newly renamed Mailbox ID, the user had to retain the "old name" (USER|other name|...|add).  Without the past reference, you get all sort of error messages back at Groupwise login.

thanks again
Luke
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Luke,

I'm glad to hear things are workig out so well. As you've no doubt discovered by now, the Post Office mode can be changed at will, and the only major impediment is getting the clients to use the mode you want. The Post Office mode also only affects the communication between the Client and the Server, not between Servers (POA, MTA, etc).

I'll research the TID you're asking about and get back to you on it.
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PsiCop:

We pulled it off in the production environment!  Everything went very smoothly.  Much more smoothly than in any of my Lab experiments.  One small hitch - during grafting of users and distribution lists, the wizard picked up on the fact that I'd already had SMS installed on the "target" server.  So it wouldn't let me put the "old" SMS into the primary context - but then it wouldn't let me put it into the GroupWise context either.  So I had to back out of the Grafting of Users and Distribution Lists (Novell's version of NT's GROUPS), highlight the new server's version of SMS (there because I'd installed Arcserve 6.0 earlier to test backups/restores) and delete it.  On the subsequent Grafting of Users and Distribution Lists, it went right past the SMS problem and copied all the files into all the right places.

The questions that I had earlier, I was now able to answer on the fly:

1. Do I need to rename the users NDS User Object ID at the end of all this?
Answer: Apparently no.  But I did keep the "NEW" tree|context|server name the same as the old one, to minimize problems.  So far, so good.

tfayefforts
Luke
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