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Motherboard/CPU overheating?

Posted on 2004-09-05
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Last Modified: 2008-01-09
Hi,

I just built a computer from the ground up and some of my games crash every now and then.
Specs:

-P4 3.0 Ghz 1MB L2 Cache, 800 Mhz Front side bus
-MSI Motherboard 865PE Neo 2-P (for Intel Northwood/Prescott Processors)
-1 gig of RAM
-ATI Radeon 9800 XT (256 megs)
-(didn't overclock the CPU, don't know how to anyway, but Core Center tells me i'm runing at above 3000 Mhz)

If I were to leave the computer off for a while and turn it back on the temperature reading is around 127 F
If after a game crashes, it kicks me back to Windows XP, and the temperature is then around 147 F

My computer doesn't reboot itself, just kicks me back to Windows.
Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Chris
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Question by:Trancedified
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by:adamdrayer
ID: 11986400
most people say that 147 is a little too hot, and that it is above the acceptible levels, but if the game crashes but windows does not freeze, then it is most likely not a heat issue.

It sounds like either a memory leak from the game or a driver issue(games usually have issues with video and sound drivers)

I would recommend visiting windowsupdate.microsoft.com and making sure you have all the latest patches.  Then I would also ensure that you have all the latest video and sound drivers for your hardware.

Which game is it?  is it only this game that crashes?  

You may also want to check your system and application logs in the event viewer.  The event view is located in Administrative Tools in your Control Panel.
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 11986655
allong with what game.   What video drivers do you have?  What sound drivers do you have?
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 11986672
Just a note, if it was a heat issue then your computer would shut down and reboot.  

147F is a lot high for a P4.  P4s should run in the 40-50 during game play like this.  You might need to work on your case cooling solutions.  The stock fan and heatsink for P4 is very good and should not have a problem keeping your CPU cool as long as the case temperature is not too hot.
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by:adamdrayer
adamdrayer earned 100 total points
ID: 11986689
40-50C  which is 104F-122F  but most people say anything over 60C is bad.  That's 140F


FTemp = (CTemp * 9/5) + 32
CTemp = (FTemp - 32) * 5/9
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 11986736
Thank you for fixing the confusion adamdrayer.  147F = 64C



So besides getting the game to run you need to work on your cooling.  If you had an AMD processor, then your temperature would not be anything to worry about.  However, with an Intel processor that temp. is something to worry about.
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by:Trancedified
ID: 11986973
adamdrayer, buckeyes33, thanks for responding so quickly.

I went ahead and checked the event viewer and I got a few of these for the game Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic:

Details
Product: Windows Operating System
ID: 1000
Source: Application Error
Version: 5.2
Symbolic Name: ER_USERCRASH_LOG
Message: Faulting application %1, version %2, faulting module %3, version %4, fault address 0x%5.
   
Explanation
The indicated program stopped unexpectedly. The message contains details on which program and module stopped. A matching event with Event ID 1001 might also appear in the event log. This matching event displays information about the specific error that occurred.
   
User Action
If an error report was generated for this error, you might be able to obtain more information about the error by sending the report to Microsoft for analysis.
 
The updated version of that game is 1.03.514077 English, I just updated my video drivers today to: ATI Catalyst Control Center- Version 1.0.1676.38180
For video drivers I have Sound Blaster Live! Value, and I just downloaded the newest drivers (haven't tried it yet, but i will after this)
This is the only game that crashes and Doom3, a much higher demanding graphics game is fine so far.

I am alittle concerned, about the airflow in my case. It does get rather hot and I can tell by touching the outside of it. The top part above the DVD Burner is hot, so is the two side panels.

The fans I have:
-The one that came w/ the CPU
-350 Watt Power supply (came w/ it)
-Side panel fan
-Video Card fan (came w/ it)
-1 Fan below the power supply that sucks air out

Do I need more power?
Thanks for your tips! I'll keep you guys updated.

Chris

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buckeyes33 earned 100 total points
ID: 11987022
wow, you are running a 350W power supply with that system.   With the computer running open up the case and touch the power supply and see how hot it is on the outside.  If you have a temperature monitor or something like that take and tape the sensor to the power supply.  If the power supply is extremely hot, then I would suggest that you get a new higher powered supply as this will greatly decrease the heat of the power supply.  I would not be suprised one bit if your power supply is to hot or close too to hot to touch.

Make sure that the fan on the side of the case is blowing air into the case.  You should have a fan in the front bottom of your case so that it blows air in.  Make sure that you have wires and cables out of the way.  If you have flat ribbon cables then I would suggest that you get round cables as they are cheap and will allow much better air flow.  You should also clean out your case with a can of compressed air and a vaccum cleaner.  


Back to your problem

have you made sure that you have AA turned off.  Also do you have AF turned off?
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 11987025
I also looked on the ATI website and there are no known issues with your game and that card.
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 11987027
Does that game use OpenGl or directx?
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by:Trancedified
ID: 11987044
Wow so 350 watts is NOT enough? Or it's fine? I'll try to find a traditional mercury thermometer and tape it to the power supply. What would be an unacceptable reading (in Fahrenheit?)

Yes the fan on the side panel is blowing sucking air from the outside in.

No fan in the front bottom (by the harddrive, though)

Ok so back to the game crashing thing:  (multitasking...I'll try out the soundcard w/ new drivers) in the meantime, what's AA and AF, and how do i go about fliipping them on/off?

Chris
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by:Trancedified
ID: 11987052
wow you're fast! Looking at the bottom of the game box, it says it needs an Open GL graphics card, but it has DirectX 9.0b included in the game CD's.
I see that in my ATI control center i can flip to either open GL or directx

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by:buckeyes33
ID: 11987098
>>Wow so 350 watts is NOT enough
power wise it probably is enough, it is running your system.  The problem I could see though is that you might be putting a lot of stress on the power supply which can cause heat.  This could be one of the main reasons your CPU temp is really high.  Exspecailly if you have a smaller case and the power supply is right above the CPU.

A good temp would probably be 15F above your ambient temp.

AA is Antialiasing
AF is Anistropic filtering

basically the settings make things crisper.  

I can't tell you exactly how to turn them off, I have not had an ATI card in a while.   So you will have to look.  The settings will be in the catalyst settings.  If you have the little catalyst thing in your start bar, if you click on it to bring up your properties it will be in there.  I guess that would be your ATI control center.  
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 11987100
>>it says it needs an Open GL graphics card, but it has DirectX 9.0b included in the game CD's.
That is strange.

The game should open in opengl if it uses opengl.  Maybe you can try putting it in opengl mode and see what happens.
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by:will_scarlet7
ID: 11989765
Trancedified,
    What type of case are you using and what is the fan configuration? Just from my personal opinion... If I was running those temps (even on an Athlon) I would probably think of getting a different case, one that can give me better airflow.
God bless!

Sam
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by:stockhes
ID: 11989886
Your CPU with 1 Mb l2 cache is a prescott also known as the "TOASTER" , you guess why !

It is "famous" of running in the 70*celcius range in games

Other things might suffer from the heat apart from CPU is MB, GFX and even HD' s.

Power :

All driven by 12 volt line: CPU ~ 80 watts
                                     GFX~ 75 watts
each Drive 2 X 10 watts            20
each fan    2 X 6 watts
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by:stockhes
stockhes earned 100 total points
ID: 11989928
sorry for previous post:-(  I Hit the "Call return" by mistake

Your CPU with 1 Mb l2 cache is a "prescott" also known as the "TOASTER" , you guess why !

It is "famous" of running in the 70*celcius range in games

Other things might suffer from the heat apart from CPU is MB, GFX and even HD' s.
To check if heat is the issue then - sidepanel off and if you have a fan that can blow air into the case it would be great


Power :

All driven by 12 volt line: CPU ~ 80 watts
                                     GFX~ 75
each Drive 2 X 10 watts            20
each fan    2 X 6 watts              12  
                                             187 watts / 12 volt = ~ 16 amps

so absolute minimum capacity from PSU is 16 amps on the 12 volt line and to be on the safe side I would say 20 amps.

Should be labeled on a sticker on the PSU.


 



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by:adamdrayer
ID: 11990705
>>The indicated program stopped unexpectedly. The message contains details on which program and module stopped. A matching event with Event ID 1001 might also appear in the event log. This matching event displays information about the specific error that occurred.<<

Was there a matching #1001 is your event logs?
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by:Trancedified
ID: 11991252
will_scarlet7,
This is my case (The Guardian) w/ the fan config on the bottom: http://www.artecusa.com/products-case.html

adamdrayer,
yes, there is an event matching 1001:

This one is an "application error"
Details
Product: Windows Operating System
ID: 1001
Source: Application Error
Version: 5.2
Symbolic Name: DW_BUCKET_LOG
Message: Fault bucket %1.
   
Explanation
A fault bucket identification number is a number assigned by the system to identify specific types of errors. This number is used by Microsoft to identify a particular program error when you send an error report.
 
   
User Action
If an error report was generated for this error, you might be able to obtain more information about the error by sending the report to Microsoft for analysis.

What to expect

Microsoft actively analyzes all error reports and prioritizes them based on the number of customers affected by the error signature contained in the report. When a report is submitted, Microsoft will try to determine the cause of the error, categorize it according to the type of issue encountered, and send you relevant information when such information is available. However, because error reports do not always contain enough information to positively identify the source of the issue, Microsoft might need to collect a number of similar reports from other customers before a pattern is discovered. Although Microsoft may not be able to provide a solution for your particular error at this time, all information submitted is used to further improve the quality and reliability of our products.
 
***************************

buckeyes33,
The power supply isn't too hot to touch after a few hours of gameplay (and a few crashes), most of the time the game crashes during "load screens" but thankfully not during battle or just walking around. I'll try the openGL setting, AA, and AF in a sec.


Chris

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by:buckeyes33
ID: 11991279
>>isn't too hot to touch
that is good then,  You need to make sure that you put a fan in the front of your case and clean wires and make them neat as this will increase air flow.  I have not heard of those boards having problems with temps.  If you look at the MSI site they might have  a bios update that could fix the temp reading if there is a problem.  
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by:will_scarlet7
will_scarlet7 earned 100 total points
ID: 11991543
Hi Chris,
    That is a very cool looking case, though in my opinion a bit lacking on the "cooling" side of the design (lacking the option for a fron intake fan). One thing you could try and see if it helps the temperature any is to buy a third 80mm fan and install it in the empty fan space in the back (in looking at the pictures of this case on newegg.com it looks to have space for 2 fans back there). If you end up looking for a new case I would personnaly recommend one with 2 120mm fans (one in the front & 1 in the back) as these have been tested to move a lot more air through the case without adding as much noise as some of the other cases that employ 5 or 6 fans. I don't own one yet myself, but I am personnaly interested in the following models:

Athenatech's A602 & A605 Models, both of which come standard with a 120mm fan installed in the rear of the case and space to install a second 120mm fan in the front, as well as a air duct over the CPU enabling your CPU fan to suck cool air directly from outside the case onto the CPU heatsink.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-190-035&depa=0
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-190-030&depa=0

the ANTEC Solution Series SLK3700. Similar the the Athenatech models except without the side vent duct. But if you are into building your computer a much nice interior layout. Also if your are in the US and buy it today newegg has it on sale for Labor Day. (I'm in europe otherwis I probably would have bought one today).
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-129-122&depa=0

If you are in Europe there is a model that is actually my favorite (except for the fact that it is a little more expensive than the 2 listed above). The Cetus  & Scutum models from a company called Yeong Yang. They come with a rear 120mm fan installed and a place for a 120mm fan in the front, a Duct ofer the CPU and have an excelent interior layout.
http://www.pc-cooling.de/catalog/artikeldetail.php?cPath=6_169&products_id=1674
http://www.pc-cooling.de/catalog/artikeldetail.php?cPath=6_169&products_id=349

Well, that's my 2 cents on cases. Try first the second fan in your current case. If it works that would be cheaper than a brand new case.

God bless
Sam.
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by:opsrcs
opsrcs earned 100 total points
ID: 12020537
The default PSU with that case is subpar at best.  Replace it with something along these lines:
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/about/index_whatnew510.htm  Power and stability from your PSU will never be an issue again.

I would also look at your chipset drivers, or that installation thereof.

When you put your PC together for the first time you should have followed the below steps:

1. Install Windows
2. Install Chipset drivers for MB
3. Install latest Direct X
4. Install Video Card drivers

Most people tend to leave off step #2, or often do it later in the cycle.  If you want to absolutely make sure you are not having a driver issue follow those steps in that order.

The problem you have is pretty common. Swap out the PSU and follow the above steps if you didnt the first time you put the PC together.
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by:opsrcs
ID: 12020652
Forgot a few comments.

PSUs were orginally designed to also be the main cooling system for your case.  Which is why you will see some Dells, Gateways, etc. often with no other fans outside of the PSU, the cases were engineered to be cooled by the PSU (which also controls the noise factor).  Aftermarket cases are often designed without regards to cooling at all.

As a general rule of thumb for fans (exculding the PSU in this), you want more exhaust fans (pulling out of the case) than you do intake fans (pulling into the case).  If you end up with more intake on the CFM, you can cause the hot air inside the case to not be vented out, just circulated around.  With a subpar PSU its just going to add to the heat instead of removing it.

Exhaust CFM needs to be as high if not higher than intake CFM.
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by:will_scarlet7
ID: 12020711
opsrcs,
    No offence (and I don't yet have enought experience to have an opinion of my own) but the issue of "More Output than Intake" regarding the fans is debateable. I have read many experts who say they prefer the have a positive pressure inside the case as long as the exhaust is moving the air out fast enough to keep things cool (which is why I prefer the cases with the 120mm fans in the front & the back).
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by:Trancedified
ID: 12020889
To all,

I replaced the power supply from 350W to 500W's. The game crashes less, but still once in a while. I heard that game from other players is "buggy" and kicks you to windows every now and then. In anycase the outerside of the case is still pretty hot, air being pushed out from the power supply isn't as hot as my 350W one. I'm looking into a cooling sys. for my video card only, and then a fan to put on 1 of my CD expansion bays.

I'll keep you guys updated!

Chris
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by:opsrcs
ID: 12021444
Fans in the CD bays tend to be worthless other than generating dust and noise.  The fans are so small they have to be run at a higher rpm to generate any kind of acceptable CFM, it will sound like a turbo-prop attached to the front of your PC =).

Take a good hard look at your case itself and see if there are any spots to drop in extra case fans.  They will be your best bet.

Havent had my hands on one of the guardian cases in a while, but my recollection was all that plastic on the front did not allow for much airflow into the case to begin with.

Adding a cooling solution to the video card isnt going to ease your troubles as much as you think.  You still have a basic intake/exhaust problem that needs to be addressed first.
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 12022357
I will agree to the fact that the cd-rom slot fan systems are junk and will not help your system.  Intake and exhaust fans our your best bet.  Along with good cable management.
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by:Trancedified
ID: 12022366
Yes sirs! :) I'll drop the CD fans
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by:opsrcs
ID: 12022461
Will,

You do realize by having two identical fans, 1 as intake and 1 as exhaust (whether 120mm or 80mm) you are creating a negative pressure system because the PSU also acts as an exhaust fan.  You are agreeing with me and didnt realise it =).

Buckeyes33 hit on a good point being cable management.  If you using the flat ribbons cables keep them folded out of the way of the airflow as much as possible. Rounded cables are a better way to go for sure.  Try to keep the main "veins" of cables zip tied together and as far away from the general flow of air coming from the fans as best you can.  You can never have to many zip ties!
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by:will_scarlet7
ID: 12024482
opsrcs,
You are correct. I concede the point.
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by:Trancedified
ID: 12093047
Hey guys,

My heating issues have been fixed, the fan in the front side dropped the core temp 10 degrees (Fahrenheit). I moved my harddrive down 2 slots to keep the heat away from the CPU. I have a big case, so i stuffed most of the wiring below the two optical drives so more air can "fly around" the mo bo, CPU and video card. I replaced the 350 W power supply to 500 W's, and after a few hours of gameplay the exhaust heat isn't has hot as the 350W.

Thanks for all your tips, if i didn't do anything my computer might have blown up or fried :) haha

Chris
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by:buckeyes33
ID: 12093299
>>if i didn't do anything my computer might have blown up or fried
it sure would not have lasted as long
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by:will_scarlet7
ID: 12094718
Glad we could be some help.
God bless!

Sam
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