Browser Wars
Well, it looks like Google might be working towards making its own browser: http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3412931
Also looks like Microsoft has started real work on IE7.
The question is this:
For all web developers that know the programming, it's been a real headache with IE that everyone uses it but it doesn't support CSS fully--yet IE does have some useful Javascript features that are not "standard" but of which could provide much more flexibility, and of course, with SP2, it's all been quite a mess. That's where Mozilla comes in with great CSS support, png support, amongst other things. Of course, you'll miss things like onbeforeunload, but that can't be helped,
But it might be possible that in a few years, a new browser war will be started. I'm asking for your opinions on these things:
Some things to consider:
1) What do you make of Google and its "possible" browser? Could it be real competition, or will it fall short of Mozilla's open source model?
2) IE might increase security, will that make it less of a headache? If IE continues to be different from other browsers in support to CSS, etc., but develops better security, there's now a less of an urge to switch away from IE. No one's going to listen to a web developer complain about CSS if IE gets tabbed browsing, etc. amongst other things.
3) Which browser do YOU think you will be using after all the dust settles with the current information?
Also looks like Microsoft has started real work on IE7.
The question is this:
For all web developers that know the programming, it's been a real headache with IE that everyone uses it but it doesn't support CSS fully--yet IE does have some useful Javascript features that are not "standard" but of which could provide much more flexibility, and of course, with SP2, it's all been quite a mess. That's where Mozilla comes in with great CSS support, png support, amongst other things. Of course, you'll miss things like onbeforeunload, but that can't be helped,
But it might be possible that in a few years, a new browser war will be started. I'm asking for your opinions on these things:
Some things to consider:
1) What do you make of Google and its "possible" browser? Could it be real competition, or will it fall short of Mozilla's open source model?
2) IE might increase security, will that make it less of a headache? If IE continues to be different from other browsers in support to CSS, etc., but develops better security, there's now a less of an urge to switch away from IE. No one's going to listen to a web developer complain about CSS if IE gets tabbed browsing, etc. amongst other things.
3) Which browser do YOU think you will be using after all the dust settles with the current information?
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More like Firefox supports Linux, which is good
By biased, I don't mean what you're saying, I mean that for instance, let's say miraculously IE7 suddenly becomes Firefox * 2 or something, then we'd have a harder job of switching to IE since many of us like Firefox and hate Microsoft and IE.
Another point is that let's say Google browser finds a way to match Firefox (I think it's safe to assume Firefox is pretty much the standard to look up to right now), we might still stick with Firefox because we're familiar with it.
Regards...
By biased, I don't mean what you're saying, I mean that for instance, let's say miraculously IE7 suddenly becomes Firefox * 2 or something, then we'd have a harder job of switching to IE since many of us like Firefox and hate Microsoft and IE.
Another point is that let's say Google browser finds a way to match Firefox (I think it's safe to assume Firefox is pretty much the standard to look up to right now), we might still stick with Firefox because we're familiar with it.
Regards...
I think the Google browser is going to have to do more then matching the abilities of Firefox, it is going to have to surpass it. That said at this point in time i really cannot see how it can, Firefox has everything i could ask for in a browser and more and even then there is the extensions which can expand its capabilities even further. Do Google really think they can out something into their browser that will make it a serious competitor.
I expect they will be looking to integrate the GMail service into it but other then that i cant currently think of anything Google can do to give their browser the edge.
I expect they will be looking to integrate the GMail service into it but other then that i cant currently think of anything Google can do to give their browser the edge.
I dont use firefox because i'm forced to, i dont use it because i like the logo's or the ideas...
I use it because IE is **** and firefox is the current best.
If IE7 is the best when it's around, sure I will use that... But only if it IS the best.
Where things match each other as you say... lets say if the Google browser is identically desirable to have then people will go either way... Some will stay with firefox because they're used to it or they use it in a linux environment or they'll use Google because they want something fresh...
Personally i feel the google browser is just a google attempt to stop MS coming back in the seach engine world, because MS are crying that they dont have have enough share of that market... They're proving this by their focus on integrating their own search technology into Longhorn - taking peoples choice away like that is sick... So i dont think people will go for it...
Linux will become more user friendly and companies will switch their workstations over - that's about it... That's the end of MS...
I use it because IE is **** and firefox is the current best.
If IE7 is the best when it's around, sure I will use that... But only if it IS the best.
Where things match each other as you say... lets say if the Google browser is identically desirable to have then people will go either way... Some will stay with firefox because they're used to it or they use it in a linux environment or they'll use Google because they want something fresh...
Personally i feel the google browser is just a google attempt to stop MS coming back in the seach engine world, because MS are crying that they dont have have enough share of that market... They're proving this by their focus on integrating their own search technology into Longhorn - taking peoples choice away like that is sick... So i dont think people will go for it...
Linux will become more user friendly and companies will switch their workstations over - that's about it... That's the end of MS...
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Which is better? A9 or Google?
A9 is saves your information and that is not good as it saves everything what I searched before.
Well, I feel like my privacy is taken away.
Talking about google and privacy... it is total long talk...
no idea which is best.
---Pinal
A9.com is better if you use that Amazon will give you pi/2 eq 1.57 % discount in books.
---Pinal
Well, I feel like my privacy is taken away.
Talking about google and privacy... it is total long talk...
no idea which is best.
---Pinal
A9.com is better if you use that Amazon will give you pi/2 eq 1.57 % discount in books.
---Pinal
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Heh, never heard of A9 before this. Yes, this is pretty much speculation, but it's fun speculation. There's a lot of things gbrowser.com can be, but you never know. Overall, I just got nothing else to do
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hey, I'm not really angry, just a little angry :)
does anybody know the first big disapointment of peolple in when Google first came to the stock market...? I just don't want to go off the topic...
David, as a fellow (newly converted) web-standard developer I have to agree I really dont care who does what AS LONG AS they all standardise their ideas on what a border/width/height/attrib
I've been hacking my CSS for IE for the last 6 hours and I'm still going...
If you feel like helping at all, post back saying and i'll open up a 500p question for some help doing things I want to do in both browsers...
I've been hacking my CSS for IE for the last 6 hours and I'm still going...
If you feel like helping at all, post back saying and i'll open up a 500p question for some help doing things I want to do in both browsers...
OloWarner, it would be nice if you post it here, just for us to have fun with...
> I've been hacking my CSS for IE for the last 6 hours and I'm still going...
I'm going to give you a good logical advice, forget it, leave it for today, just before you close your eyes think about that problem, think about more solutions and tomorow... first thing in the morning I guarantee you'll look back and laugh about how easy it was... :)
> I've been hacking my CSS for IE for the last 6 hours and I'm still going...
I'm going to give you a good logical advice, forget it, leave it for today, just before you close your eyes think about that problem, think about more solutions and tomorow... first thing in the morning I guarantee you'll look back and laugh about how easy it was... :)
Well its one thing really...
I've setup a nested selector (i dont know the right names for these things yet)
#subnav dl>dt>a, #subnav dl>dt>a:link, #subnav dl>dt>a:hover, #subnav dl>dt>a:active {}
That give you the basic idea, i've tried, as you can see using the child hack to stop IE using it, and for now it seems to work, but its not what I want...
#subnav dl dt a, #subnav dl dt a:link, #subnav dl dt a:hover, #subnav dl dt a:active {}
that was my original line, but IE was formatting things with this dude's attributes that were actually:
#subnav dl ul li a
Does ie just skip things when it feels like it? it seems to have listened to the first and last thing I wanted, but skipped out the bit where i ask that it only formats things in the dt tags, not in uls...
I've setup a nested selector (i dont know the right names for these things yet)
#subnav dl>dt>a, #subnav dl>dt>a:link, #subnav dl>dt>a:hover, #subnav dl>dt>a:active {}
That give you the basic idea, i've tried, as you can see using the child hack to stop IE using it, and for now it seems to work, but its not what I want...
#subnav dl dt a, #subnav dl dt a:link, #subnav dl dt a:hover, #subnav dl dt a:active {}
that was my original line, but IE was formatting things with this dude's attributes that were actually:
#subnav dl ul li a
Does ie just skip things when it feels like it? it seems to have listened to the first and last thing I wanted, but skipped out the bit where i ask that it only formats things in the dt tags, not in uls...
also, IE doesnt align things against my bullet points in my ULs right...
There a fix for that too?
There a fix for that too?
no, i dont believe it is...
here's a sample of what its applied to:
<div id="sidebar"><div id="subnav">
<dl>
<dt><a href="#">tool box</a></dt>
<ul>
<li><a href="#">proxy list</a> </li>
<li><a href="/tools/ip2isp/">ip 2 isp</a></li>
<li><a href="/tools/map/">uk mapper </a></li>
<li><a href="/tools/anonymail">an
<li><a href="/tools/hamster/">ins
<li><a href="/tools/momma/">yo momma database</a></li>
</ul>
and here's the current temp location:
http://www.cagedguru.com/test.php
remembering that IE doesnt use the code i want it to yet becuse i protected it, how do you think i can hack it so it doesnt touch the UL/LI and only the DT
here's a sample of what its applied to:
<div id="sidebar"><div id="subnav">
<dl>
<dt><a href="#">tool box</a></dt>
<ul>
<li><a href="#">proxy list</a> </li>
<li><a href="/tools/ip2isp/">ip 2 isp</a></li>
<li><a href="/tools/map/">uk mapper </a></li>
<li><a href="/tools/anonymail">an
<li><a href="/tools/hamster/">ins
<li><a href="/tools/momma/">yo momma database</a></li>
</ul>
and here's the current temp location:
http://www.cagedguru.com/test.php
remembering that IE doesnt use the code i want it to yet becuse i protected it, how do you think i can hack it so it doesnt touch the UL/LI and only the DT
ASKER
Heh, don't worry about going off topic, you know me, half the time my head's up in the clouds. Post whatever you like here--only reason I didn't put it in lounge because this could be relevant to anyone who comes here in the future. I won't accept the off topic posts anyways.
I wonder if they're still updating Hotjava lmao
I wonder if they're still updating Hotjava lmao
Yeah sorry about going OT... But for the record, I fixed my issue... IE has been slain...
Well you know the score as far as things go...
Closed source software just doesnt cut it when there are people that want to hack your software open...
Open Source will always find and fix the bugs before theres a problem...
You should read the page I posted up there earlier: http://www.cagedguru.com/test.php
I had a good rant on there earlier about IE... Plus you can tell me what you think about the design... :)
Well you know the score as far as things go...
Closed source software just doesnt cut it when there are people that want to hack your software open...
Open Source will always find and fix the bugs before theres a problem...
You should read the page I posted up there earlier: http://www.cagedguru.com/test.php
I had a good rant on there earlier about IE... Plus you can tell me what you think about the design... :)
ASKER
Design looks pretty good. If you need any help with the login, registration, user account stuff with PHP, you know where to ask :)
It's a great design, but I'm sad that you ate all the files I wanted to view. Perhaps you can regurgitate them soon?
It's a great design, but I'm sad that you ate all the files I wanted to view. Perhaps you can regurgitate them soon?
Heh... its actually a design to replace my current one at http://www.thepcspy.com
All the behind-the-scenes is done... in ASP/ASP.net... but thanks for the offer anyway...
All the text is just dummy text until I get it in place and plug all my code into it...
Did you see how much i reckon I'm going to be saving in bandwidth by using web-standards? ~30 gigs a year... That's just crazy...
All the behind-the-scenes is done... in ASP/ASP.net... but thanks for the offer anyway...
All the text is just dummy text until I get it in place and plug all my code into it...
Did you see how much i reckon I'm going to be saving in bandwidth by using web-standards? ~30 gigs a year... That's just crazy...
Currently the best browsers in the world are built on the Mozilla code. I don't see anything on th ehorizon that changes that. If Google builds a Mozilla based browser it won't cut it for the same reason Opera does not cut it. They will put ads on it or charge for it. Google has to generate enough revenue to keep investors happy. Mozilla does not ahve to do that.
As for IE, any new browser is going to have the same problems as IE 6. To support the M$ products and .net, the security model has to be allow easy bondary crossing, and the is the achilles heal that has made IE just plain unsafe to use.
The biggest issue for me is standards. I work close to the standards. Mozilla is the most standards compliant browser, and that is why we have moved 60,000 of the 80,000 users we support to Mozilla. The other 20,000 will be moved by the end of the year. Most of the code conversions we had to do were to get rid of the IE crap that was necessary to get our apps to look like they were written to standard.
I think Gbrowser is a great idea because it will get us closer to IE be ing history. In the end open source standards complaint browsers will win. I don't care if it is Firefox of something else; as long as I have something that consistently follows the standards so I don't have to hack around deficencies.
BTW,
The slopcode developers that have thousands of pages out there that assume IE by using document.all to reference the dom, will not be a problem with the release of Mozilla 1.8 which includes undetected support for document.all
Cd&
As for IE, any new browser is going to have the same problems as IE 6. To support the M$ products and .net, the security model has to be allow easy bondary crossing, and the is the achilles heal that has made IE just plain unsafe to use.
The biggest issue for me is standards. I work close to the standards. Mozilla is the most standards compliant browser, and that is why we have moved 60,000 of the 80,000 users we support to Mozilla. The other 20,000 will be moved by the end of the year. Most of the code conversions we had to do were to get rid of the IE crap that was necessary to get our apps to look like they were written to standard.
I think Gbrowser is a great idea because it will get us closer to IE be ing history. In the end open source standards complaint browsers will win. I don't care if it is Firefox of something else; as long as I have something that consistently follows the standards so I don't have to hack around deficencies.
BTW,
The slopcode developers that have thousands of pages out there that assume IE by using document.all to reference the dom, will not be a problem with the release of Mozilla 1.8 which includes undetected support for document.all
Cd&
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Well, M$ say they only hire the best--I'm willing to bet the IE code is a force to be reckoned and would take all those smart people to figure it out. Any jump start on IE7is bound to take awhile while they sort out the code so it shouldn't be a problem--IE just has to fool the relatively computer illiterate fools out there who can't tell a small increase in security to total security.
The good news is that if IE gets tabbed browing in its next release, we can feel good that they're copying from Mozilla, Opera, and about every other browser that has tabbed browsing =)
The good news is that if IE gets tabbed browing in its next release, we can feel good that they're copying from Mozilla, Opera, and about every other browser that has tabbed browsing =)
and are m$ ever going to release a browser which features ad-blocking routines? with the amount of money MSN rakes in from ads, I doubt it.
Mike
Mike
In SP2 IE blocks popups...
But that's about it...
But that's about it...
ASKER
Disabling IE is so hard. I try to make batch file that will start Firefox everytime my icon is pressed. Deleted the iexplorer.exe but it keeps friggin coming back dammit
You cant remove IE from windows...
Explorer and Internet explorer are joined at the head and there's no chance of separating them...
What you can do is only use explorer for doing windows nonsense, and set firefox as your default browser...
Explorer and Internet explorer are joined at the head and there's no chance of separating them...
What you can do is only use explorer for doing windows nonsense, and set firefox as your default browser...
Go into Control Panel, Add/Remove Programs, Windows components.
uncheck Internet Explorer
This removes access to IE via the startmenu and desktop.
Launch firefox and make it the default browser
Place a shortcut to firefox on the desktop, rename to Internet Explorer and change it's icon to the blue E from c:/prog...iexplore.exe
copy this shortcut into your startmenu.
Gotta love lUsers
Mike
uncheck Internet Explorer
This removes access to IE via the startmenu and desktop.
Launch firefox and make it the default browser
Place a shortcut to firefox on the desktop, rename to Internet Explorer and change it's icon to the blue E from c:/prog...iexplore.exe
copy this shortcut into your startmenu.
Gotta love lUsers
Mike
ASKER
Bahahahahaha lol, thanks frugle heh
I've got some good news here people, Red Hat bought Netscape from AOL, but I don't think that they bought the whole company, I think what news said this morning was that, Red Hat bought Netscape Security and I'm a little confused what thry mean by that... BTW, I really didn't like to see netscape in AOL's hands. :)
Redhat have entered into a definitive asset purchase agreement with AOL - not bought them completely...
The products to be acquired are derived from the Netscape Enterprise Suite and include Netscape Directory Server and Netscape Certificate Management System. Red Hat plans to start marketing these products as part of its Open Source Architecture over the next 6 to 12 months.
What this means for Microsoft's stranglehold on ldap and certification I have yet to find out, but anyone taking anything off a company like AOL has got to be buying a lemon - I can't see them giving up anything of value easily.
Mike
The products to be acquired are derived from the Netscape Enterprise Suite and include Netscape Directory Server and Netscape Certificate Management System. Red Hat plans to start marketing these products as part of its Open Source Architecture over the next 6 to 12 months.
What this means for Microsoft's stranglehold on ldap and certification I have yet to find out, but anyone taking anything off a company like AOL has got to be buying a lemon - I can't see them giving up anything of value easily.
Mike
yeah that's right, AOL paid 10 mil. for whole netscape and sold only part of it for 25 mil. yeah... I would say so too...
But netscape (navigator) is just a poorly modded version of mozilla...
ASKER
NN is definitely NOT a poorly modded version of mozilla. Mozilla is just an exception version of NN :)
ASKER
Ah, oops, I meant exceptional
I bought a PC from PC World a couple of years ago for £1000 - I'll sell you the hard drive, power switch and internal speaker for £250,000.
Mike
Mike
ASKER
Hmm... How much will they be worth in 30 years? As much as my silver penny?
ASKER
Well, this discussion looks like it will be coming to an end :) Time to award points
Thanks Zyloch. It was an interesting thread. :^)
Cd&
Cd&
For sure Zyloch,
It was great thread.
Thank you,
---Pinal
It was great thread.
Thank you,
---Pinal
ASKER