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Mac machine on a PC network with files that have PC wildcards

Posted on 2004-11-03
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Last Modified: 2013-11-15
I have only 1 user on my network that uses a Mac, he is using a g4 with OSx 10.2.8(i think).

We have a server that he used to store all his artwork on that runs Windows NT4, He inherited alot of old artwork and quark files that have PC wildcards in them *'s in particlular.

My problem is we need to remove this machine off the network, and want to move all his data to the HP SAN that we have, my other co worker copied all his files to the san one night and the file associations broke so he could not open the quark files. We took an older mac that he keeps just for emergencies like this, and we have gotten everything to work, the files copy over using the mac and the associations stay for the newer machine.

the problem with this scenario is that ALOT of his files have wildcards in the names *'s mainly so they will not transfer to the new SAN, the old NT4 machine does not have ANY PC-MAC software on it that i can tell.

does anyone have any suggestions on what we can do to get this to work?

500 points since its extremely important that this gets done
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Question by:mesach
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by:Lee W, MVP
ID: 12486628
Install NT 4 Services for Macintosh - provided the server is in the same subnet as the client, this should work - in addition you MAY have to install the Appletalk protocol.  (Again, this assumes the NT4 system is NT4 SERVER and not WORKSTATION).
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by:mesach
ID: 12486681
the nt4 machine is a Server(old member server) the new machine is a 2003 file server

How was the original art director able to put these files on the system without these services being on...

and i do not see appletalk protocol in the list of available protocols, WOW NT4 is OLD, im so not used to working on it, is there somewhere i can get protocols?
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by:Lee W, MVP
ID: 12486754
Appletalk for NT was an included protocol - just install it as if you were installing NetBEUI or TCP/IP.  You might have to install Services For Macintosh (SFM) first, but maybe not (it's been a while for me too).

NT4's Appletalk did not support Appletalk over IP, so if the client is in a different subnet, this won't work or you'll have to switch subnets.  Perhaps they used DAVE, FTP, or some other method of file transfer.  

BTW, do you mean that when you look at the files under Windows they appear to have ? characters?  If so, this is typically Windows' way of dealing with a mac file name that, for example, includes a / character - which windows reserves.  I had a lot of people like to name files after dates with file names like:

Journal 11/14/02

From the Mac, this looked fine.  From the PC, it looked like this:

Journal 11?14?02

Also note, SFM stores Mac file resource forks in streams - streams are weird things, only supported under NTFS file systems.  Sometimes moving files with Windows looses the streams, causing your lost associations.  This is especially true if you move the file from an NTFS drive to a FAT/FAT32 drive.
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by:mesach
ID: 12486825
from the mac they are

boxj9332* fullfront
or
EP S020189 HR. b*w Merged

on the server they show up with a 

and the PC doesnt like it because * is a wildcard
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by:mesach
ID: 12486844
Services for Macintosh is on but appletalk is not available, is there anywhere i can download it? I am going to have to set all this up on the new server too.
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by:Lee W, MVP
ID: 12487802
Have a look at this (I know it was included somewhere with NT4 Server).
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by:Lee W, MVP
ID: 12487805
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by:JonSh
ID: 12488323
an idea occurs to me:  Use renamewiz from a Windows machine to change all those '*' to a hypen or something else, then copy them?

http://www.renamewiz.com/

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by:mesach
ID: 12488345
only problem with renaming is that it will break all the associations within the quark files.
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by:JonSh
ID: 12489313
Mesach, I'm not sure of that.  I thought the way the mac os` did it was looking at the resource fork inside the file.  Are you saying that CLI file actions (Copy/rename/etceteras) destroy the resource association?
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by:Lee W, MVP
ID: 12489360
Resource forks are stored within streams - I mentioned this before.  Some programs may not be stream aware and in turn not copy the stream info.

Don't know what streams are?  See:
http://www.macwindows.com/NTunsolv.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/170965/EN-US/
http://win32.mvps.org/ntfs/streams.html
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by:JonSh
ID: 12490081
Um, I see the problem  I'll just be quiet unless I think of something useful :)
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by:Lieven Embrechts
ID: 12492009
Ok, let's solve this problem:

(1) you need to set up your nt4 machine (network service for apple file & print sharing) to get access from the chooser.

(2) you need to change the filenames to get rid of illegal characters
     i use http://www.sigsoftware.com/namecleaner/  to do this job automatically

(3) it's true that the linking inside quark files will be broken.
if all linked files are within 1 folder, quark will propose to relink all other files automatically after the first relink.
if all linked files are scattered over many folders, it will be more work to relink as a result of no discipline in naming files and no discipline in structuring folders. (no input = no output ;-)
it's not necc. to relink all projects, only do that when you have to update a project.

(4) mac users aren't used to any discipline and working together with other departments. if they store files on windows servers, it's better to start some discipline in naming files, adding file extensions and structuring linked files in a project folder.

give a yell if you need more info on any of these points.
you can also email me at el@bulo.be
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idarmadi earned 2000 total points
ID: 12511583
Mesach,

Macintosh Service on Windows (any version).
(http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/WindowsServ/2003/standard/proddocs/en-us/Default.asp?url=/resources/documentation/windowsserv/2003/standard/proddocs/en-us/sag_SFMtopnode.asp)

It  is just nothing but pain. Period.
http://www.macwindows.com/Win2003.html

The problem is in the file naming.  OSX 10.2.8 can access Windows2003 via smb://, but it will not accept the wild card OR other illegall character issues.  Thus to preserve those wildcard/illegal characters, you have to use Mac Service.  I know the problem you're facing.  Renaming file is not an option as it will break all those links.  We have a network with majority of Mac, but with a Windows 2000 Server.  Some of the mac are used for graphics using Freehand, and PageMaker, which relies on links to other files.

You said that he inherited A LOT of files.  Just how many is 'A LOT'?  In Windows2000 Server, Service for Mac, the perfomance will degrade alot if you have directory size more than 2GB (cmiww) or 65k files.  And MacFile service has a mind of their own, the service will shutdown and restart at its will.

It is better to use smb:// to connect to windows server, but you can't because of the naming issue.

If the purpose of the HP NAS is just for backup only, I suggest you to get an external HD for the mac.  Other Windows computer if they want to share the files, Mac can serve as a windows file server.

Starting from now, have the mac guy to have a habit of saving files without illegal characters not limited to *, but including ()/\?and others....

Good luck.
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by:Lieven Embrechts
ID: 12513035
"It  is just nothing but pain. Period."

I don't agree.  If you want that Mac and Windows work together, you can add tons of products to keep mac and windows users do whatever they want, but you will always have major problems.   By getting rid of the illegal characters once and by educating users a bit, most problems can be avoided from then on and working together will become much easier.  Fixing it once and introducing a little discipline is in my experience the best way to keep all users happy.

just my 2 cents.
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by:billmercer
ID: 12632248
This problem is as old as Windows itself. I have to remind my Mac users on a regular basis not to put bullets and sqiggly symbols in file names. The problem is compounded by software that uses cute file and folder names.

With respect to the broken links in the Quark documents, that's caused by the file names being changed, and has nothing to do with file associations, which Macs don't use. There's an Applescript utility that makes fixing broken links easier, but there simply is no way around renaming the files if you want to coexist with Windows.

I'm interested to hear what the asker has done about this issue.


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