Old routers work on my line, not new ones?! I'll give 1000 points to who ever solves this...

I have a real poser here and will double this questions points if anyone can solve it (that is 1000 points). This means give me the reason and a reasonable fix that does not cost me more than say $25. If after you read this you need more info or more product model numbers let me know.

Some background … I have a very odd setup for internet access. I live in Montana where I have no real broadband service available here as we are well over 15 miles from the CO for DSL, too far for ISDN and cable service comes nowhere near the house. I did not want the expense of Satellite either. They have wireless broadband service available in Helena (the closest city) and I found that the top of out property has line of sight to 2 of their transmitting towers.

So I had a tube placed 3 feet underground from the house to the top of our property (2200 feet back and about 500 feet up) and ran power from the house up the tube and a fiber optic line as well. On the hill top we have the antenna that receives the signal, where it is converted to Ethernet. The Ethernet runs into a Linksys 5 port workgroup switch (model EZXS55W) and 2 lines come off the switch. One of those goes to an Axis 2120 camera I have up top (http://mtncam.coolcybercats.com/local/index.html - this is the camera, live). My ISP has given me 2 IP addresses, and the camera takes one. The other network cable goes into a converter where it is converted into a fiber optic signal and shot to the house. At the house the fiber line gets converted back to Ethernet and runs up to the next floor and into an older (4 year old BEFSR41) Linksys 4 port router that has a Netgear access point on it.

This setup works perfect. However I want to consolidate the router and access point. SO I bought a new Linksys 4 poirt wireless router and it did not work. I exchanged it and went through 4 of these models and spend at least 10 hours with there bad foreign support. I then went to a D-Link 802.11b/g router and it also did not work. I have tried a NetGear as well. It seems the older equipment works (I tried an old DLink router) though. When the network cable is plugged into the new ones it does not see any signal. 3 separate notebooks also work when plugged directly into the Ethernet cable that goes into the router. I also took the routers to where the fiber gets converted to Ethernet and plugged a new 15 inch cable into the fiber converter and the new wireless routers still do not work or see a network, but notebooks do. I tried a cross over cable as well, nope.
Then I took a second LinkSys 5-port workgroup switch (like the one on the mountain) and plugged that into the Ethernet off the converter and put my old router off the switch. Works. Put the new ones on, nope. What the hell!?!?!?

I am at a loss on this one! I want to consolidate the equipment. Any one have any clues?
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rhawkAsked:
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grbladesCommented:
Hi rhawk,
So when you plug the notebook directly into the cable which normally plugs into the wireless access point it works but when you plug it into a new access-point it doesn't?
If this is the case then it sounds as though it is a crossover network issue.

The access point is basically wired as a swith. Connecting a switch/router to a PC requires a straight through cable. Connecting a switch/router to a switch/router or a PC to a PC requires a crossover network cable. Some equipment can automatically detect and use either cable and this is where I suspect your problem is coming from. The old access-point might auto detect but the new one cannot.

I suggest getting a network cable 'coupler' which allows you to join two cables together and a short crossover network cable. You can use this to convert a normal cable to a crossover and vice-vera (two crossover cables joined equals a normal cable). Use this if you cannot get a connection to see if it helps.
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rfgkevCommented:
it could also be that your isp has recorded the mac address the old router was using, try cloning this onto your new router and see if that works.
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
rfgkey: Nope. They do not do this. And beyond them telling me so, since I have changed from router to router to notebooks the mac addresses of the ones that worked all al different and there was no problem. I also reset the system (in case you thought the local equipment might need it after changes) with the master power between each change in case that was it. :)
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
grblades: Hi. No, take the access point out of the picture. If I connect the notebook directly to the ethernet off the fiber converter it works. If I connect older routers to that line they work. If I connect a new router (wireless/4 port) they do not see the network at all and insist there is no signal,

I have also tried a cross over from the fiber converter to the new routers and they still see nothing. It is the damnedest thing.
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mikebernhardtCommented:
It definitely sounds like a crossover cable issue. A notebook or any PC will be have its send and receive pairs the opposite of a standard switch or hub port. It will be the same as an uplink port on a router though. So if you are using the uplink port on the router, it should work. Some new equipment has a button to cross and uncross the uplink port pairs.

A correctly configured crossover cable should have pins 1&2 crossed with pins 3&6. Usually this is the green and orange pairs.

I don't know what kind of fiber connector you are using, but one thing you could do to test the crossover theory is to just swap the fiber strands at the converter if the connector allows it. If it works, you're done. Or you can swap it back and get a proper copper crossover cable.
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
mikebernhardt:
Yes, I am using the uplink port (Internet as the new Linksys routers call it and WAN/Internet as my older one calls it).
I know all about crossover cables and tried it as well. I even tried the ethernet cable right to the non link connection on the new router and nothing as well.

The converter lets me unplug the strands, and I also tried that in addition to the crossover cable.

See? THis is a humdinger. My ISP is not trying to help and they have given an interesting possibility that I plan to try over the next dap or so. THey think the new equipment does not auto-negotiate well with the fiber converter for some reason, and want me to try setting the speed and duplex directly in the router and try different settings. I try this by the weekend.
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mikebernhardtCommented:
That's a possiblity, but it seems unlikely in new equipment...

It could be a speed mismatch between the fiber converter and the new routers- but again they should autonegotiate...
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gjohnson99Commented:
Hey I seen this kind of thing before.  

What is the speed of your fiber connection ?   What is the duplex set to ?
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TronstekCommented:
LAN TCP/IP Setup

Seeing as how both top and bottom routers are currently LinkSys one or both of them will have settings for this that are not default.  192.168.1.1 is the LinkSys default if memory serves. (Netgear person here)  Set the LAN side IP settings to match the old router.  If the top router is set to default, this is why the new routers do not work.  Although the Netgear should have, they’re defaulted at 192.168.0.1, if this was the only setting not correct.

The LAN TCP/IP would be the most likely culprit, but it concerns me that the Netgear didn’t work so I may be missing something.  You may have to go through each menu on both old and new routers, using 2 pc/laptops side by side would be easiest if possible.  The routers do not need to be hooked up to the outside Ethernet for this part.  


If you cannot log into the old router using the default log in IP given in the manual try looking at the IP address of the PC you have connected, say it is 192.168.1.3, replace the last number with the number 1.  So it would read 192.168.1.1.  
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gjohnson99Commented:
If the fiber conncetion is a 10 mb

and you pluging it in to 10/100 concection a lot 10/100 can't handle the old 10 md stuff.

It thinks 10 mb conection is a 100 mb and fail that why you don't get lighs.  
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
mikebernhardt: The fiber converter does not have any controls to adjust the ethernet speeds. I verified this with my ISP who set it all up. I will look up the make and model and see what speed the ethernet coes out at and what duplex. I will be out Thursday and Friday so cannot post any info till Monday though....
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
gjohnson99: See my last comment about speed and duplex. I do not know it now but will find out....
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
Tronstek: No, no. There is only 1 router. The top (mountain) just has a switch to divide the incoming signal between the camera and ether-to-fiber converter. No router up there. And even if there were a lower router would work with it set to DHCP with my setup.
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
gjohnson99: The speed and duplex may well be it. Hard to say yet. As I said above I need to look up the equipment and then I'll post the info. In the mean time, I am going to Missoula (2.5 hours drive) Friday and there is a Best Buy there. I may well buy another Wireless Router and play more. I would rather get the LInksys 802.11b or the D-Link 802.11b/g units, and D-Link is higher on the list. Do you know if I can set the connection speed and duplex in either of these? If one does and not the other it will affect the decision on which to get.
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gjohnson99Commented:
Do any of switchs/routers have management on them were can line speed and duplex (IE. Change it to match the converter like 10 mb full duplex).

If you get a new one get one with management.
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
gjohnson99: The mountain top switch is fully automated and cannot be managed. Being it is before the fiber I assume it does not even factor into the picture?
Back at the house the fiber converts to Ethernet and there is no way to manage that either. My old befsr41 linksys router does not seem ot have any way to adjust the speed that I can see. Since this one works I gues it matters not. THe new linksys and d-link routers have been returned after months of trying to get it working. I do not remember if they can be managed on speed and duplex.
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gjohnson99Commented:
When you connect your pc to the fiber connector what speed dose it  connect at ?
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wjc7662Commented:
you said that you've attempted connecting a switch on this side of the fiber then connecting the new router to the switch.  when you do this, do you get connection lights?  if so, and it still doesn't work, then it's not a speed/duplex problem.  If not, which one(s) don't have connection lights?  fiber?  Router? if you have lights, have you attempted resetting your fiber tranceivers and your wireless receiver?  Even though your ISP doesn't monitor MAC addresses, other devices do.  For instance, cable modems will associate their connection to the ethernet device (router/pc) to the devices MAC address and need to be reset to refresh their ARP tables.  As I have never used wireless ethernet, I'm not sure whether the equipment has this type of memory.  I know this doesn't sound like the issue since you can connect multiple other devices to the connection successfully, but obviously anything's worth a shot.
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
gjohnson99: Hiya. I am back now, but did not have a chance to try the speed test with the notebook. I will get to it by the weeks end. :)
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
wjc7662: When I connect a switch between the fiber converter and router I get the connection light on the router, but nothing else. It still fails to see the connection. So I tried to connect the router to the switch and nothing else to the switch and the router lights up from that too, so that is a dead end I suspect.

I have tried to reset all the equipment when connecting them, and the converter and switch on the mountain top do not hold MAC address anyway (though they were reset).

Sigh. THis issue is annoying me to no end!
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wjc7662Commented:
Well, I guess the next thing to check is to see if your ethernet cable is following the 568-a/b diagram.  If you have a cable that isn't its extremely possible that you'd get lights but not data. For instance, if you have a cable that runs
::
wh/or
or
wh/gr
gr
wh/bl
bl
wh/br
br
::
on both ends (or some variation) then either the transmit pair or the receive pair is not in a twisted pair.  For ethernet to work properly over UTP send pairs must be twisted together, also the receive pairs must be twisted together.  so pins 1&2 together and 3&6 together.  The acutal wiring schematic is as follows:
::                                  ::
wh/or                            wh/gr
or                                 gr
wh/gr                            wh/or  
bl                ::or::          bl
wh/bl                            wh/bl
gr                                 or
wh/br                           wh/br
br                                 br
::                                 ::
So check your cables and see if they are correctly wired.
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rhawkAuthor Commented:
OKay, my notebook connects to the converter at 100mb fullduplex.

ALso the cables are good. In case they were not I tested with 3 other cables (1 I made, 2 I bought). Grrrrr.... I hate this problem!
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harbor235Commented:
Do the new devices support auto MDI/MDIX? if so make sure it is turned on.
This technolgy auto detects the cable being used and configures the port to utilize any cable. If this is turned off, orif its default operational mode does not support that type of cable ( or is a like device) there could be a problem.
Shot in the dark ! I love the property !

harbor235
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PAQ_ManCommented:
Closed, no points refunded.
PAQ_Man
Community Support Moderator
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