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Can you tell me pros and cons of using Microsoft Publisher to create HTML documents

Posted on 2005-04-19
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Last Modified: 2013-12-16
To get the ball rolling...  

Publisher utilizes css - is this code well constructed?
Please give input on the other aspects of the code which publisher creates.
Is the code redundant?  (taking up unecessary space?)
In the world of dial-up -- could the web page/s be done in a more efficient way?
If someone was limited to using Frontpage would it be wise to reconstruct the publisher document from scratch?

Pros:
Some people love publisher - and it gives a one step process to creating HTML.

Cons:
Publisher converts tables into images - making it difficult (from an html editor standpoint,) to edit the text within the table.

As I understand it some HTML editors do not handle some of the nesting which occurs when trying to open a html file created by Microsoft Publisher.
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Comment
Question by:C_Wit
  • 8
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19 Comments
 
LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:ranganathan_gp
ID: 13822986

 
  How to Create a Web Page Using Microsoft Publisher  
Design and create Web pages quickly and easily using Microsoft Publisher, a simple desktop publishing program.
 
   
 
 
  Steps:  
1.   Start Microsoft Publisher. If the New Publications wizard doesn't start, select New from the File menu and choose Publications by Wizard.  
 
2.   Scroll down to the Web Sites category. Choose a style from the examples at right and click Start Wizard.  
 
3.   Follow the steps in the wizard, choosing the color scheme, layout, forms, sounds and other Web page components. Click Finish to complete the wizard.  
 
4.   Enter text in the text frame areas or create new text frames using the toolbar. Add clip art and other components as desired.  
 
5.   Select Web Properties from the File menu to create the title of the page and other information, such as keywords.  
 
6.   Use the Website Preview command from the File menu to view the page before saving. This command will start the default Web browser and show the page.  
 
7.   Select Save As HTML from the File menu when you're done.  
 
 
  Tips:  
 If you have the Microsoft Web Publishing wizard installed, you can use the Publish to the Web command under the File menu. The wizard is available on the Windows 98 CD or the Microsoft Publisher CD.  
 
 You can click on the Web Site Wizard bar to change any component, such as color or layout, at any time.  
 
 After you've saved the page, you can upload it to your Web site.  
 
Hope this will helps u solve the problems

Ranganathan.p
 
0
 

Author Comment

by:C_Wit
ID: 13824039
Sorry Ranganathan - not quite what I'm looking for - but thank-you anyway.  I'm really looking for someone who knows HTML - and would be able to analyze the code produced by Publisher.  I'm hoping that person can tell me what Publisher does right and what it does wrong (again referring to the code that it produces.)  What would an experienced programmer do differently to generate the same "product."
0
 
LVL 30

Assisted Solution

by:GrandSchtroumpf
GrandSchtroumpf earned 200 total points
ID: 13824158
The answer is quite simple:  There are no WYSIWYG html editors that produce optimimal html code.
The only way to correctly code html is to do it by hand in a text editor.
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LVL 29

Accepted Solution

by:
rdivilbiss earned 1000 total points
ID: 13824170
Like me, I doubt anyone with the experience you are looking for would have a copy of publisher handy to examine the HTML output.  When I have seen any HTML output from a MS Office product, it is so bloated and non-W3C compliant I just shake my head in disgust.

I have not looked at the HTML output from Publisher XP or 2003.  The one thing that really caught my eye with Publisher generated HTML was the absolute volume of code and the overuse of graphics.  The bloated page would take forever to load for a dial-up user.

If you want to publish an example page we can offer more specific comments.

Reagrds,
Rod

0
 

Author Comment

by:C_Wit
ID: 13824363
:)   Thank-you  GrandSchtroumpf and rdivilbiss, I'm pleased with your feedback so far,  thank-you.  Your answers are starting to give me what I want.   (I'm including some sample code from a friend - I believe it was generated by Publisher 98)

<!doctype html public "-//IETF//DTD HTML 4.0//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Publisher 2000">
<title>Page Title</title>


<style type="text/css"><!--
A:link    { color: #0066ff }
A:visited { color: #6633cc }

#NormalF {
PublisherStyleName: Normal;
font-family: Times New Roman;
font-size: 10.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#NormalP {
text-align: left;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt1F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt1;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 18.0pt;
color: #000080;
letter-spacing: 1.0pt;
}
#PubSt1P {
text-align: left;
margin-left: 7.2pt;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt2F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt2;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 8.0pt;
color: #000080;
letter-spacing: 1.0pt;
}
#PubSt2P {
text-align: left;
margin-left: 7.2pt;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt3F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt3;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 12.0pt;
color: #000080;
letter-spacing: 1.0pt;
}
#PubSt3P {
text-align: left;
margin-left: 7.2pt;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt4F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt4;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 12.0pt;
color: #000080;
}
#PubSt4P {
text-align: left;
margin-left: 7.2pt;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt5F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt5;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#PubSt5P {
text-align: left;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt6F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt6;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#PubSt6P {
text-align: left;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt7F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt7;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#PubSt7P {
text-align: center;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt8F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt8;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#PubSt8P {
text-align: center;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt9F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt9;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#PubSt9P {
text-align: center;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt10F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt10;
font-family: Times New Roman;
font-size: 10.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#PubSt10P {
text-align: right;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt11F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt11;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 12.0pt;
color: #ffffff;
}
#PubSt11P {
text-align: right;
margin-right: 7.2pt;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt12F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt12;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 12.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#PubSt12P {
text-align: right;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt13F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt13;
font-family: Times New Roman;
font-size: 12.0pt;
color: #000000;
}
#PubSt13P {
text-align: center;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt14F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt14;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 12.0pt;
color: #ffffff;
}
#PubSt14P {
text-align: center;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

#PubSt15F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt15;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 12.0pt;
color: #ffffff;
}
#PubSt15P {
text-align: center;
margin-top: 0.0pt;
margin-bottom: 0.0pt;
}

--></style>


</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" link="#0066ff" vlink="#6633cc" text="#000000"  topmargin=0 leftmargin=0>
<a name=top></a>
<div id=div320 style="position: absolute; left:0px; top:0px; width:816px; height:48px;">
</div>
<div style="position: absolute; left:0px; top:0px; width:816px; height:48px; background-color:#4d4da6; padding:3px 3px 3px 3px;">
<table width=810px height=42px border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td valign=top align=left bgcolor=#4d4da6>

<p id=NormalP><span id=NormalF><br></span></p>

</td></tr></table>
</div>
<div id=div322 style="position: absolute; left:96px; top:48px; width:720px; height:96px;">
</div>
<div style="position: absolute; left:96px; top:48px; width:720px; height:96px; background-color:#cccccc; padding:3px 3px 3px 3px;">
<table width=714px height=90px border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td valign=top align=left bgcolor=#cccccc>

<p id=PubSt1P><span id=PubSt1F>Missisquoi River Basin Association<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt2P><span id=PubSt2F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt3P><span id=PubSt3F>A Vermont/Quebec Watershed Alliance <br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt3P><span id=PubSt3F>in the Lake Champlain Basin</span><span id=PubSt4F><br></span></p>

</td></tr></table>
</div>
<div id=div324 style="position: absolute; left:96px; top:143px; width:192px; height:130px;">
<img width=192 height=130 border=0 src="img0.gif"></div>
<div id=div331 style="position: absolute; left:609px; top:143px; width:192px; height:130px;">
<img width=192 height=130 border=0 src="img1.gif"></div>
<div id=div335 style="position: absolute; left:417px; top:143px; width:192px; height:130px;">
<img width=192 height=130 border=0 src="img2.gif"></div>
<div id=div338 style="position: absolute; left:286px; top:143px; width:131px; height:130px;">
<img width=131 height=130 border=0 src="img3.gif"></div>
<div id=div329 style="position: absolute; left:801px; top:144px; width:15px; height:129px;">
</div>
<div style="position: absolute; left:801px; top:144px; width:15px; height:129px; background-color:#cccccc; padding:3px 3px 3px 3px;">
<table width=9px height=123px border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td valign=top align=left bgcolor=#cccccc>

<p id=NormalP><span id=NormalF><br></span></p>

</td></tr></table>
</div>
<div id=div333 style="position: absolute; left:102px; top:276px; width:306px; height:738px;">
</div>
<div style="position: absolute; left:102px; top:276px; width:306px; height:738px; padding:3px 3px 3px 3px;">
<table width=300px height=732px border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td valign=top align=left>

<p id=PubSt5P><span id=PubSt5F>The Missisquoi River Basin Association is a non-profit watershed alliance committed to the protection of the Missisquoi River and its tributaries.</span><span id=PubSt6F><br></span></p>

</td></tr></table>
</div>
<div id=div328 style="position: absolute; left:432px; top:276px; width:364px; height:738px;">
</div>
<div style="position: absolute; left:432px; top:276px; width:364px; height:738px; padding:3px 3px 3px 3px;">
<table width=358px height=732px border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td valign=top align=left>

<p id=PubSt6P><span id=PubSt6F><br></span></p>

</td></tr></table>
</div>
<div id=div337 style="position: absolute; left:419px; top:282px; width:1px; height:732px;">
<img width=1 height=732 border=0 src="img4.gif"></div>
<div id=div334 style="position: absolute; left:102px; top:1023px; width:694px; height:23px;">
</div>
<div style="position: absolute; left:102px; top:1023px; width:694px; height:23px; background-color:#ffffff; padding:3px 3px 3px 3px;">
<table width=688px height=17px border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td valign=top align=left bgcolor=#ffffff>

<p id=PubSt7P><span id=PubSt7F>All Content </span><span id=PubSt8F>&copy;</span><span id=PubSt7F> 2005 Missisquoi River Basin Association</span><span id=PubSt9F><br></span></p>

</td></tr></table>
</div>
<div id=div330 style="position: absolute; left:0px; top:48px; width:96px; height:1008px;">
</div>
<div style="position: absolute; left:0px; top:48px; width:96px; height:1008px; background-color:#4d4da6; padding:3px 3px 3px 3px;">
<table width=90px height=1002px border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td valign=top align=left bgcolor=#4d4da6>

<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>Home<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>Calendar<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>Contact<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>History<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>Links<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt12P><span id=PubSt12F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt14P><span id=PubSt14F>Member<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt14P><span id=PubSt14F>Of<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt14P><span id=PubSt14F>Trout<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt14P><span id=PubSt14F>River<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt14P><span id=PubSt14F>Network</span><span id=PubSt15F><br></span></p>

</td></tr></table>
</div>
<a name=bottom></a>
</body>
</html>

0
 
LVL 29

Expert Comment

by:rdivilbiss
ID: 13824513
It is so bad it is hard to say where to start, but an obvious clue to how really bad this is, would be the following very useless set of tags....

<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt10P><span id=PubSt10F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>Home<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>Calendar<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>Contact<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>History<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt11P><span id=PubSt11F>Links<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt12P><span id=PubSt12F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt13P><span id=PubSt13F><br></span></p>


A total waste of bandwidth.

0
 
LVL 29

Expert Comment

by:rdivilbiss
ID: 13824702
The divides provide no useful function:

<div id=div324 style="position: absolute; left:96px; top:143px; width:192px; height:130px;">
<img width=192 height=130 border=0 src="img0.gif"></div>
<div id=div331 style="position: absolute; left:609px; top:143px; width:192px; height:130px;">
<img width=192 height=130 border=0 src="img1.gif"></div>
<div id=div335 style="position: absolute; left:417px; top:143px; width:192px; height:130px;">
<img width=192 height=130 border=0 src="img2.gif"></div>
<div id=div338 style="position: absolute; left:286px; top:143px; width:131px; height:130px;">
<img width=131 height=130 border=0 src="img3.gif"></div>
<div id=div329 style="position: absolute; left:801px; top:144px; width:15px; height:129px;">
</div>


The stylesheet ignore inheritance and has useless tags:

#PubSt7F {
PublisherStyleName: PubSt7;  <-- useless (except for publisher)
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10.0pt;
color: #000000;
}


There is no need to give four paragraphs with identically formatted contents, for different styles.  You can set the style on the paragraph so the span is unnesccesary, having HTML attribute without quotes opens you to XSS attacks.  Why is their a paragraph with a unique style, and a span with a unique style just to wrap a line break which is non visable???  41 characters to represent what only requires 4 characters???  That is so stupid I shall stop looking at this now.  It appears 75-80% of this can be eliminated and still get the same page output.


<p id=PubSt1P><span id=PubSt1F>Missisquoi River Basin Association<br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt2P><span id=PubSt2F><br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt3P><span id=PubSt3F>A Vermont/Quebec Watershed Alliance <br></span></p>
<p id=PubSt3P><span id=PubSt3F>in the Lake Champlain Basin</span><span id=PubSt4F><br></span></p>

Regards,
Rod
0
 
LVL 30

Expert Comment

by:GrandSchtroumpf
ID: 13824900
The code is absolutely horrible but the worst part of it is that it's not valid html.
You can go here to check html validity: http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/direct.html
(do not include that silly doctype in the input).
0
 
LVL 4

Assisted Solution

by:Fuzzyfish1000
Fuzzyfish1000 earned 400 total points
ID: 13824992
Yeah, in agreement with almost all the above - there are no 'visual' web dev tools out there, including dreamweaver (which is the best by far) that produce well formatted, valid html. If I'm in a hurry sometimes, I'll draw the layout in dreamweaver, then switch to code view, and fix it all... The microsoft offerings are scaryingly bad - the code they output are messy, impossible to read, and extremelly wasteful. If you're after pixel-perfect code, then it has to be by hand. I think you'll find the majority of professional web-dev companies don't use visual tools to build sites - I simply won't employ anyone who can't hand-code pixel perfect pages...

Just my pennies worth ;-)
0
 
LVL 4

Assisted Solution

by:RonHoffmann
RonHoffmann earned 200 total points
ID: 13825084
I have tried Publisher, Frontpage, Visual studio's visual interdevelopment environment, Microsoft word, Notepad, other programs that are not worth mentioning and I've come to the conclusion that the best approach to get exactly what you want is a plain old text editor.
I usually use notepad but sometimes I use visual studio although I only use the source view and the quickview if I use the design view it's automation will usually mess up some of my code so I try to avoid it as much as possible.
My opinion of publisher is; use it to produce printed matter and leave it at that.
Most web development programs that I've used or seen are great for beginners who want to create a cool looking page with out really knowing what they are doing. But if you want something really practical, efficient and reliable, don't be lazy, use a text editor and your programming skill and you'll get what you want.
I think the publisher code that has been posted here helps make my point.
Feel free to agree or disagree these are my thoughts on the matter.

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LVL 14

Assisted Solution

by:Hedley Phillips
Hedley Phillips earned 200 total points
ID: 13826034
Sorry, that was a rubbish answer, here is what I meant to type:

Good lord,

that code is horrific.

I wouldn't let that anywhere near my site even if I was desperate, and to find out that it is not valid comes as no surprise.

Upload a page to http://validator.w3.org/ (the W3C validator and have a look at the results.

I have been producing sites for over 8 years now and there are only two applications I would recommend for HTML, a text editor (ie UltraEdit) and Dreamweaver. None of the others have ever come close to giving me the control and flexibility I require.

If the reason you are asking about Publisher is that it is a well known Microsoft app that staff may be happy to use, then I can understand where you are coming from. but saying that, it does not take long to train someone in basic html editing using Dreamweaver (2-3 hours) and if you ever need to edit the code later on or get an outside aggency to tie it into a backend, with Publisher, you will just have to write it all again.

/Heds
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Author Comment

by:C_Wit
ID: 13826173
Wow! -- I can't contest your comments.... I think they all sound valid... Thank-you very much.  (Heds - no problem - I fully appreciated the value of your comments.)

I definitely want the pixel perfect pages - In fact I need to create that pixel perfect page as soon as possible.  I have some experience with Frontpage, HTML, and a little javascript.  I think I want to stick within bounds of W3C HTML 4

I've been thinking about DreamWeaver for a while - but most of the people I help use Frontpage (yuck - I know.)

While your comments have been added - I've been attempting to recreate the publisher document using Frontpage 2002 - Page layout and spacing is such a problem!  I'm having problems deciding when to use shared borders, or navigation bars.  I would use shared borders / Nav Bar for the obvious reason that I want uniformity and the ability to change one page and have all the other pages change, however if it's only going to complicate things - I'll pass for now.

Pixel perfect spacing of "color bars" pictures and text is my biggest challenge right now.
Some general questions: Should a "color bar" be constructed by doing something like making a cell with background color, or should it be a .gif placed with absolute positioning -- I'm open to suggestions here!  

Ok -- I think in fairness I need to award points and look at PAQ's or open another question.  Anyone object if I split points?

If I open another question I'll post a link to it very soon...
If I find a PAQ -- I'll post that link here too - for others.
Thanks again.

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Author Comment

by:C_Wit
ID: 13839025
OK after about an hour of effort here's a little tally of links and information regarding positioning and spacing in Frontpage -- caution - some of these posts are quite dated... so I will probably ask a more comprehensive question for the latest answers.


Moving pictures around in FrontPage
asked by gguzman on 04/12/1997 11:16AM PDT
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web/WebDevSoftware/Authoring/Q_10007827.html

Answer from ed@learnx.com
Date: 04/14/1997 10:52AM PDT
The current incarnation of FrontPage does not allow "pixel level control" of images (maybe a future release?). To get exact spacing you have to use table (setting pixel specific sizes) and/or spacer/transparent images. sorry.
Ed

C_Wit
Date: 04/21/2005 03:04PM PDT
Perhaps (many years after original post, note listed dates!) this would be solved by using absolute positioning -  sorry I don't have time for a more elaborate solution - may be found in PAQ's?



Spacing between left shared border and body with FrontPage site
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/FrontPage/Q_20886899.html

Is it possible to eliminate the 24 pixel space that is added by FrontPage extended servers between a left shared border and the body of an html page?

In summary people have listed four approaches to getting rid of the 24 pixel space...

Approach 1:
coreybryant stated:
The best way would be to eliminate the shared borders & use Server side includes.  You can control a lot more & they are not relying on FP extensions.

Approaches 1 & 2:
seanpowell stated:
"Either SSI, or using the FP Include Page Component (which don't require the extensions), are the best possible alternatives to your situation."

Approach 3:
MrsDeagle:
 "just change your outside table width to 100 percent and it will work fine in any browser with any resolution."

Approach 4:
craisin:
"Just simply go into Frontpage and select the entire unwanted column column in the border and press "delete". This will remove it from the "_borders/left.htm" file and coding within the pages in question (Frontpage will update all pages concerned)."

C_Wit:
I found more information about doing "approach 2":   FP INCLUDE PAGE COMPONENT
This additional information was found at:
Title: Spacing between left shared border and body with FrontPage site
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/FrontPage/Q_21268894.html

In the above mentioned post hhammash give details about how to include a page component in FrontPage:
By alternative means I prefer that you create your own borders.

What FP does is:

- Creates Shared borders
- Stores them in a folder
- Include the borders automatically when a new page is created

Why don't you do the same (by the way you will have much more control)
- Create the left.htm as you like
- Create the top.htm as you like
- Store them in a folder called "includes"
- Create a new page with a table that has top, left and body
- Include left.htm in the left table column
- Include top.htm in the top table column
(How to include the file:  Put the cursor in the cell which will be a row in the top or bottum, Select Insert, Web Component, Include Content, Select Page from the right panel, Browse for top.htm or bottom.htm ..etc, Press OK, Then the page will be included in the cell)

- Save the page as MySiteTemplate.htm

Now whenever you want to create a new page
- Open MySiteTemplate.htm
- Save it as the name that you want to give to the new page
- Close it and work on the new page

This way you will have the same effect of the Shared borders, and in addition you can have full control and make sure that no surprises are coming ahead.  Sometimes shared borders misbehave,  and when they do,  they are irrecoverable.

This is the end point of hhammash's comments for this particular post.

More comments by me, "C_Wit":
I'm still curious if "Approaches 3 and 4" (listed above) are valid or how effective they are?



Line space height in frontpage
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/FrontPage/Q_10846261.html

Frontpage 2000 Double? Spaces  (Double line spaces)
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/FrontPage/Q_10326680.html


formating a table
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/FrontPage/Q_20651560.html
asked by rralph on 06/17/2003 04:42PM PDT
I am using frontpage XP.  How do i adjust the table width so it stretches across the whole browser with no space on either side?

Accepted Answer from coreybryant
Date: 06/17/2003 05:53PM PDT
Grade: A
Right click on the page - choose page properties.  Under the margins tab - choose left margin & put  zero in there.  

You can also add rightmaring in the body tag:
<body leftmargin="0" rightmargin="0">

Corey



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Author Comment

by:C_Wit
ID: 13839085
From C_Wit to rdivilbiss
Hi rdivilbiss... just wondering... Could you (please) tell me a little more about"
"having HTML attribute without quotes opens you to XSS attacks."
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Author Comment

by:C_Wit
ID: 13839187
I'm about to award points for the first time since joining EE:

GrandSchtroumpf - 50 pts. for recommending text editor and validator.

Rdivilbiss - 250 pts. you answered most of my questions and gave me good tech info!

Fuzzyfish - 100 pts.  repeated text editor comment, said Dreamweaver best code for visual, but also gave background and made me confident in your answers.

RonHoffmann - 50 pts.  backed up previous comments - expanded a little.

Madcowz - 50 pts. backed up previous comments - expanded a little.

I hope this looks fair.... Thank-you all.

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LVL 29

Expert Comment

by:rdivilbiss
ID: 13839403
rdivilbiss to C_Wit (et. al.)

I'll do my best within the confines of the membership agreement, e.g. I won't post real code, just an overview and none to specific.

Let's say you have an e-commerce site and you didn't quote your attributes.  I'm a phisher and I frame your site (hiding my frame), do a little URL spoofing (common knowledge) and basically coax people to your page within my frame.  We all know that is possible.  Happens every day, especially with banking sites.

I could, for example, use a little HTML injection to add additional handlers into your unquoted event attribute... say you have a mouseover/mouseout for highlighting the currently focused input, I can add that the value of the field is sent to my frame...usefule for credit cardnumbers.

A small example and I don't think I gave you enough detail to exploit it or even prove it is possible.  The best examples I saw were in an article I'm having trouble finding, however Writing Secure Code 2 has some examples.

You can have a lot of fun with "src" attributes in embeds, objects and images.

Searching for "HTML injection", and "html attribute XSS" on google will find some good examples.  Unfortunately you'll also have to wade through a lot of discussion relating to posting HTML in forumns, etc. which is not what we are talking about here.

Even if you negate the HTML injection/XSS aspect, you should still quote all attributes for validity reasons.

Strictly speaking you are non-compliant (4.01 strict) without the quotes and you must have them for XHTML and XML so you might as well get in the habit.

Hope that helps some.

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Author Comment

by:C_Wit
ID: 13839439
Wow - I really appreciate that -- If you want some points - I'll create a question and we could copy your input to it... (I think this is fair - in terms of your effort and that the questions and answers recently posed are very different from the original question in this post.  Good for people legitimately interested in protecting themselves too.)  I just did a quick search of XSS in the EE PAQ's - looks like the subject may be covered - (not sure how well.)  But if I relate it to confirmed case of Publisher creating that kind of vulnerability - It would probably be original.  What do you think?
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Author Comment

by:C_Wit
ID: 13839590
I just posted a question titled:  

XSS vulnerabilities created by Microsoft Publisher and other applications - what to look out for, how to prevent it.  Here's the link:  http://www.experts-exchange.com/Security/Q_21398270.html


and while I was at it:
I just posted this "question" too:
Postitioning in FrontPage - an overview of possibilities, tips, tricks to get better pixel position.  Here's the link:  
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Applications/MS_Office/FrontPage/Q_21398258.html
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