Janice Cook
asked on
I want to illustrate and self-publish a book. Which software should I learn first, Illustrator or Photoshop?
I have Adobe Creative Suite, which includes the InDesign module. I also have a month-to-month subscription to Lynda.com, not the one year that allows access to membership files.
I can't afford to have someone illustrate OR publish for me, so I've taken on this daunting task myself. Adobe has a steep learning curve, so I need some really good guidance. I know that the final graphics have to be in vector format, but Illustrator seems much harder than Photoshop. So, which one should I learn first?
Also, is there something better for the money ($25/month) than Lynda.com? Let me know. Thanks.
I would appreciate a thoughtful answer with some good links, so I am assigning 500 points. It's also pretty urgent.
I can't afford to have someone illustrate OR publish for me, so I've taken on this daunting task myself. Adobe has a steep learning curve, so I need some really good guidance. I know that the final graphics have to be in vector format, but Illustrator seems much harder than Photoshop. So, which one should I learn first?
Also, is there something better for the money ($25/month) than Lynda.com? Let me know. Thanks.
I would appreciate a thoughtful answer with some good links, so I am assigning 500 points. It's also pretty urgent.
Or you can use Macromedi Flash :)
Allow me to echo the concerns of of billmercer regarding the steep learning curve. And Illustrator was the hardest for me to learn. I do recommend video training. Videos have taken years off my learning curve so I highly recommend them. As you get more advanced, you can follow more advanced print tutorials as well.
Best wishes on your project.
Best wishes on your project.
ASKER
billmercer, I took a comprehensive course (the kind that glosses over everything and you really learn nothing) in desktop publishing. The best thing about the course was being able to purchase the Adobe Suite for under $400.
The course was given in a vocational school setting, and the instructor had a complete printing press facility, where students learned whatever they have to learn to produce the actual printed product. He told me that to self-publish, I had to submit artwork in vector format, and that this was absolutely a requirement. He also told me the cheapest way to have my book printed (by the way, it's a children's book, based on my pet dog) was to do all the work with Creative Suite and have it actually printed overseas. Publish-On-Demand companies charge less, but keep most of the profits from sales, assuming the book does sell. For example, BookSurge would publish by book for around $600, and do the artwork for me, but essentially all I get for the money is a copy of my book and a contract that gives everything to them.
The pictures would be something similar to what you would see in a Disney book, with cute characters and simple colors. I've even considered making the illustrations line drawings without color, so it would be a combo coloring/storybook.
seifip, what would be the advantage of Macromedia Flash?
thinkwelldesigns, which videos would you recommend?
The course was given in a vocational school setting, and the instructor had a complete printing press facility, where students learned whatever they have to learn to produce the actual printed product. He told me that to self-publish, I had to submit artwork in vector format, and that this was absolutely a requirement. He also told me the cheapest way to have my book printed (by the way, it's a children's book, based on my pet dog) was to do all the work with Creative Suite and have it actually printed overseas. Publish-On-Demand companies charge less, but keep most of the profits from sales, assuming the book does sell. For example, BookSurge would publish by book for around $600, and do the artwork for me, but essentially all I get for the money is a copy of my book and a contract that gives everything to them.
The pictures would be something similar to what you would see in a Disney book, with cute characters and simple colors. I've even considered making the illustrations line drawings without color, so it would be a combo coloring/storybook.
seifip, what would be the advantage of Macromedia Flash?
thinkwelldesigns, which videos would you recommend?
Macromedi Flash is very easy to use... its powerfull vector graphic tool. You can also use bitmap graphic in it. The only disadvantage is price :/ You can export the files to eps/pdf or other formats to edit/improve them in photoshop/illustrator or other program.
You can also try Macromedia FreeHand - somethink like Illustrator.
Vectorkid - the best Flash graphic. At his page http://vectorkid.com/ he explain what are the advantages of illustrating in Flash and shows his examples...
You can also try Macromedia FreeHand - somethink like Illustrator.
Vectorkid - the best Flash graphic. At his page http://vectorkid.com/ he explain what are the advantages of illustrating in Flash and shows his examples...
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>The pictures would be something similar to what you would see in a Disney book, with cute characters and simple
>colors. I've even considered making the illustrations line drawings without color, so it would be a combo coloring/
>storybook.
The most important question is, how good an artist are you? No matter how well you know the software, you need some artistic talent to produce nice illustrations. I'm very proficient with both Illustrator and Photoshop, but I suck when it comes to actually drawing a picture. If you can draw, you're 90% of the way there. You don't HAVE to use all the sophisticated features of AI, you can just draw pictures.
Get a tablet if you don't already have one.
>colors. I've even considered making the illustrations line drawings without color, so it would be a combo coloring/
>storybook.
The most important question is, how good an artist are you? No matter how well you know the software, you need some artistic talent to produce nice illustrations. I'm very proficient with both Illustrator and Photoshop, but I suck when it comes to actually drawing a picture. If you can draw, you're 90% of the way there. You don't HAVE to use all the sophisticated features of AI, you can just draw pictures.
Get a tablet if you don't already have one.
Oy, I got a headache reading what your instructor told you. I think the others already made the correct points, but just to re-iterate from a printers perspective:
Art is art. The type of art should determine the file format. Period. Determine the art you want, and then use the proper tool(s) to create it.
If you have a photograph, grayscale image, (also known as continuous tone images), then a bitmap format is the correct one to use. Photoshop, of course, would be the best application for modifying these images.
If you have line art, such as most logos are generated from, then vector is the best way to go. Vector art allows smooth lines without stepping patterns that you might get from bitmap. I prefer illustrator, but as was pointed out, freehand and, uh, well, ok, corel draw (I have a bias against corel, but we won't go there again...).
For a children's book where you have to make the illustrations, you need to decide what KIND of images you want. You could paint, draw or whatever and scan those images in to Photoshop, and keep them as bitmap, or you could create in Photoshop using its 'painterly' tools. On the other hand, if you want crisp, linework images, sort of like cartoons, you might go illustrator.
BUT, it all determines on the type of art you want to create. Don't allow some moronic instructor to tell you to put the cart before the horse. Determine what you want to do first, and then use the proper tools.
You wouldn't use a watercolor brush for oil painting and vise versa... (thats just an example, I just know some artsy fartsy person is going to take issue with that! ;-) )
BongSoo
Art is art. The type of art should determine the file format. Period. Determine the art you want, and then use the proper tool(s) to create it.
If you have a photograph, grayscale image, (also known as continuous tone images), then a bitmap format is the correct one to use. Photoshop, of course, would be the best application for modifying these images.
If you have line art, such as most logos are generated from, then vector is the best way to go. Vector art allows smooth lines without stepping patterns that you might get from bitmap. I prefer illustrator, but as was pointed out, freehand and, uh, well, ok, corel draw (I have a bias against corel, but we won't go there again...).
For a children's book where you have to make the illustrations, you need to decide what KIND of images you want. You could paint, draw or whatever and scan those images in to Photoshop, and keep them as bitmap, or you could create in Photoshop using its 'painterly' tools. On the other hand, if you want crisp, linework images, sort of like cartoons, you might go illustrator.
BUT, it all determines on the type of art you want to create. Don't allow some moronic instructor to tell you to put the cart before the horse. Determine what you want to do first, and then use the proper tools.
You wouldn't use a watercolor brush for oil painting and vise versa... (thats just an example, I just know some artsy fartsy person is going to take issue with that! ;-) )
BongSoo
Most of what I would say has already been said. But, here's what I suggest:
Find your printing company first, and ASK how they want the files formatted. Then you can think about how to get them what they want.
I concur on hidden costs in overseas outsourcing. There are a wide range of alternatives available, you don't have to go with a self-publishing company, you can find a printer who will do it here (wherever here is for you), and a lot of them will assist with the process of getting a USBN and listing as a publisher on Amazon, etc.
Here's a decent overview of the alternative routes available to you: http://www.fearlessbooks.com/PublishingGuide.html (it's from a publisher, so be aware, but it's reasonably unbiased and straightforward). Here's some good information from About.com: http://freelancewrite.about.com/od/selfpublishing/
Don't try using Flash for print work. Illustrator is pretty standard and the Adobe CS has InDesign, where you can do your page layouts, etc, which you will likely need if you are self-publishing.
Beyond that, I am a strong believer in learning by doing. Start trying to do what you want to do, and come back here as you have questions or get frustrated. Better yet, start answering some questions, and learn how to do things in order to answer the questions... you'd be surprised at what you learn in a few months time. :)
Cheers,
LHerrou
Find your printing company first, and ASK how they want the files formatted. Then you can think about how to get them what they want.
I concur on hidden costs in overseas outsourcing. There are a wide range of alternatives available, you don't have to go with a self-publishing company, you can find a printer who will do it here (wherever here is for you), and a lot of them will assist with the process of getting a USBN and listing as a publisher on Amazon, etc.
Here's a decent overview of the alternative routes available to you: http://www.fearlessbooks.com/PublishingGuide.html (it's from a publisher, so be aware, but it's reasonably unbiased and straightforward). Here's some good information from About.com: http://freelancewrite.about.com/od/selfpublishing/
Don't try using Flash for print work. Illustrator is pretty standard and the Adobe CS has InDesign, where you can do your page layouts, etc, which you will likely need if you are self-publishing.
Beyond that, I am a strong believer in learning by doing. Start trying to do what you want to do, and come back here as you have questions or get frustrated. Better yet, start answering some questions, and learn how to do things in order to answer the questions... you'd be surprised at what you learn in a few months time. :)
Cheers,
LHerrou
Holy cow, talk about information overload... ( hey the more informed you are the better :-)
Ok, heres the breakdown, super simple.
-----
Photoshop: Use for Editing and croping photos and raster material. Dont use for text exept for like headings or special text if you want, and keep ti vectorised.
Illistrator: Use for building any vector eliment thats not super simple. Dont use it for laying out your book or publication. Especialy a book.
In Design: Use it to lay out your pages and flow your text. Its like quark, exept not as sucky. ( Although I was forced to use it for years :-P )
Flash: Its usefull, but you wont need it. The only way its usefull outside of web development is when experts use it for vector art or for motion graphics in After Efects... blah bla - Dont use it...
-----
By "Build it in vector" your printer probably meant, just dont build the publication in Photoshop. He is right. You need to lay out a book in a program like In Design, as Illustrator is horrible to learn how to manipulate and flow text. Another point is, that it cost alot more to print somthing in full color process. So if your book is going to not have photos or raster graphics, then by all means stick with vector and save a bundle on printing.
Luckily, Photoshop, Illy and In Design are all very friendly with each other, so once you get the hang of it the workflow is smooth.
(or smoothish)
Here are some tips:
- Use High Resolution Photos and raster art from Photoshop.
- Pay attention to linking vs imbeding artwork.
- save often and make backups.
- Convert all non-standard fonts to outlines at the publishing stage. (remember macs are standard in alot of print shops...)
- Always convert a copy to outlines :-P
- Ask away on EE when you hit snags, just be specific to each problem and explain very clearly.
my 2 cents,
Ben McNelly
ASKER
This IS information overload for me, especially since I'm not familiar with many of the graphics programs and what they're for. The point that photographs appearing in publications and aren't vector really struck me, and makes me wonder about the advice my instructor gave me.
I have some talent for drawing....I can copy Disney cartoons like Bambi, or pretty much any line type drawing without any trouble. Adding texture is where I run into trouble.
Seifip, I went to vectorkid.com, and downloaded a couple of sample tutorials, but can't play/view/open the .fla file types. What software do I need to do this? I have to admit, I particularly was impressed with the tomatoe example. The quality was unbelievable. But again, this might be something for the future, as the emphasis was "for the web", and not for print.
Slynky, I would really appreciate if you would post links to the products you mentioned.
I guess the real issue is I have a real life, adorable, furry dog whose ways and personality inspired a book. My original idea was to use pictures of him, modified digitally, and "insert" him into the make-believe, cartoon setting. The second choice was to "cartoonize" him, which I don't have the artistic skills for, hoping that a graphics program would help me accomplish this.
If I can copy Disney characters by eye, how much Illustrator would I need to know? I do have a Wacom tablet (just purchased, absolutely necessary as working with mouse feels so strange).
I have some talent for drawing....I can copy Disney cartoons like Bambi, or pretty much any line type drawing without any trouble. Adding texture is where I run into trouble.
Seifip, I went to vectorkid.com, and downloaded a couple of sample tutorials, but can't play/view/open the .fla file types. What software do I need to do this? I have to admit, I particularly was impressed with the tomatoe example. The quality was unbelievable. But again, this might be something for the future, as the emphasis was "for the web", and not for print.
Slynky, I would really appreciate if you would post links to the products you mentioned.
I guess the real issue is I have a real life, adorable, furry dog whose ways and personality inspired a book. My original idea was to use pictures of him, modified digitally, and "insert" him into the make-believe, cartoon setting. The second choice was to "cartoonize" him, which I don't have the artistic skills for, hoping that a graphics program would help me accomplish this.
If I can copy Disney characters by eye, how much Illustrator would I need to know? I do have a Wacom tablet (just purchased, absolutely necessary as working with mouse feels so strange).
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Sheana11,
Renderosity: http://www.renderosity.com/
DAZ 3D (Toonimal Puppy for Poser): http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=1132
Animation Master: http://www.hash.com/
Poser 6: http://www.e-frontier.com/go/poser_hpl
Poser 6 + the Toonimal Puppy allow you to make cartoonish images with a 3D mesh. It's called Poser because you can set the facial expressions, move the feet, legs, ears...a lot of body parts, and then render the image to a still. Poser 6 does pretty good cell work. In Renderosity, you can look at the Poser galleries and do a search for Toonimal Puppy and see what all can be done with him. If you don't want a background, that's easy, too. A bit of learning curve, but Renderosity has bunches of help and you'll find people use it to make comics, still art, as well as annimation.
Since you are artistically inclined, you can ink your drawings and EASILY fill them in with shading with different programs. For some tips on that, here is ONE OF THE BEST (his site and a few tutorials): http://www.seanellery.com/
Yes, it IS information overload but you're traveling down a daunting path. Hope your extensive replies here have helped.
Slynky
Renderosity: http://www.renderosity.com/
DAZ 3D (Toonimal Puppy for Poser): http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=1132
Animation Master: http://www.hash.com/
Poser 6: http://www.e-frontier.com/go/poser_hpl
Poser 6 + the Toonimal Puppy allow you to make cartoonish images with a 3D mesh. It's called Poser because you can set the facial expressions, move the feet, legs, ears...a lot of body parts, and then render the image to a still. Poser 6 does pretty good cell work. In Renderosity, you can look at the Poser galleries and do a search for Toonimal Puppy and see what all can be done with him. If you don't want a background, that's easy, too. A bit of learning curve, but Renderosity has bunches of help and you'll find people use it to make comics, still art, as well as annimation.
Since you are artistically inclined, you can ink your drawings and EASILY fill them in with shading with different programs. For some tips on that, here is ONE OF THE BEST (his site and a few tutorials): http://www.seanellery.com/
Yes, it IS information overload but you're traveling down a daunting path. Hope your extensive replies here have helped.
Slynky
Yikes! I MUST disagree with Slynky on the 3D stuff.
3D animation and rendering software is WAY overkill for someone who wants to do simple line drawings. Poser, 3D Studio, etc. are great tool for doing 3D animation and renderings, but they are totally inappropriate for creating simple line art for print purposes. The asker has already indicated she's intimidated by learning Illustrator. Adding even more different software packages to the mix isn't going to help. Also, the whole conceptual framework for 3D rendering is totally different.
Sheana11, you do not need to purchase ANY additional software to achieve your goal. Creative Suite has absolutely everything you need, and more. Your goal is to produce a children's book with simple line drawings and a story. You don't even need Illustrator. A simple and fast way to achieve your goal:
- Draw your illustrations on paper.
- Scan them at high resolution (ask the printing company what they recommend)
- Make any adjustments or changes in Photoshop (change colors, clean up smudges, etc)
- Insert the finished images into InDesign pages
- Add your text to the document
- PDF and send to printer
No need to learn Illustrator in a hurry, no need to do vector art whatsoever, no need to buy anything.
If you WANT to use Illustrator, you can take your scanned images and use Illustrator's tracing tools to create vector art, or even manually trace your drawings with a tablet. But this isn't mandatory, and if you're in a hurry, don't bother.
Your goal is to publish YOUR drawings, not to learn how to create a new and completely different type of drawing.
3D animation and rendering software is WAY overkill for someone who wants to do simple line drawings. Poser, 3D Studio, etc. are great tool for doing 3D animation and renderings, but they are totally inappropriate for creating simple line art for print purposes. The asker has already indicated she's intimidated by learning Illustrator. Adding even more different software packages to the mix isn't going to help. Also, the whole conceptual framework for 3D rendering is totally different.
Sheana11, you do not need to purchase ANY additional software to achieve your goal. Creative Suite has absolutely everything you need, and more. Your goal is to produce a children's book with simple line drawings and a story. You don't even need Illustrator. A simple and fast way to achieve your goal:
- Draw your illustrations on paper.
- Scan them at high resolution (ask the printing company what they recommend)
- Make any adjustments or changes in Photoshop (change colors, clean up smudges, etc)
- Insert the finished images into InDesign pages
- Add your text to the document
- PDF and send to printer
No need to learn Illustrator in a hurry, no need to do vector art whatsoever, no need to buy anything.
If you WANT to use Illustrator, you can take your scanned images and use Illustrator's tracing tools to create vector art, or even manually trace your drawings with a tablet. But this isn't mandatory, and if you're in a hurry, don't bother.
Your goal is to publish YOUR drawings, not to learn how to create a new and completely different type of drawing.
Sorry Slynky, I missed this part of your comment:
>Since you are artistically inclined, you can ink your drawings and EASILY fill them in with shading with different programs.
>For some tips on that, here is ONE OF THE BEST (his site and a few tutorials): http://www.seanellery.com/
This is great advice, and I'd recommend you give it a try. The site has some great examples of how to "colorize" line drawings digitally using Photoshop, which as you've found, is generally easier to learn than Illustrator.
>Since you are artistically inclined, you can ink your drawings and EASILY fill them in with shading with different programs.
>For some tips on that, here is ONE OF THE BEST (his site and a few tutorials): http://www.seanellery.com/
This is great advice, and I'd recommend you give it a try. The site has some great examples of how to "colorize" line drawings digitally using Photoshop, which as you've found, is generally easier to learn than Illustrator.
billmercer,
At the questioners last request, I posted links. At the time I mentioned those options, we had no knowledge of the questioner's skill level in doing the art herself (?). Even WITH art skills, both AM and Poser will do cell shading (saving additional steps). I agree there is some learning curve there but in addition to answering her request, I also looked to the future in that there might be follow-on books and knowing how to use one of those tools speeds things up nicely.
I will agree with you, that it might be overkill in additional money and learning but (1) the questioner should make the decision on how to approach the project and, IMO, having a lot of options to ponder over is better than only a few replies and suggestions. As to Poser, buying (for example) the Toonimal Puppy and loading it into Poser is as simple as installing a program (with DAZ's procedure). After that, one need only start Poser, find the puppy in the list of 3D items and load it. At that point, it would probably only take one evening of tinkering around before a person could learn to rotate, for example, the head with a dial, lift a paw with the paw dial, etc., and render a still with default lighting. Any refinement would take further learning but the Renderosity forum for Poser is the biggest in the world and they always help out.
Considering the skills of the questioner, I'd suggest more strongly that she (?) look into Sean's site for what can be done with line art and Photoshop. Here, we both agree rather heartily.
We are all here to help the questioner and I take no offense at your disagreement...I'm just explaining why I listed what I did. I think everyone here has offered some good advice to think about. And lest anyone think I hopped in here (a tad late) because I'm a point monger, I'll request the questioner leave me out of any points. I was sufficiently motivated by the questioner's interests in self-publishing a book to "hop in late" to offer what little I could.
Cheers!
(Slynky)
At the questioners last request, I posted links. At the time I mentioned those options, we had no knowledge of the questioner's skill level in doing the art herself (?). Even WITH art skills, both AM and Poser will do cell shading (saving additional steps). I agree there is some learning curve there but in addition to answering her request, I also looked to the future in that there might be follow-on books and knowing how to use one of those tools speeds things up nicely.
I will agree with you, that it might be overkill in additional money and learning but (1) the questioner should make the decision on how to approach the project and, IMO, having a lot of options to ponder over is better than only a few replies and suggestions. As to Poser, buying (for example) the Toonimal Puppy and loading it into Poser is as simple as installing a program (with DAZ's procedure). After that, one need only start Poser, find the puppy in the list of 3D items and load it. At that point, it would probably only take one evening of tinkering around before a person could learn to rotate, for example, the head with a dial, lift a paw with the paw dial, etc., and render a still with default lighting. Any refinement would take further learning but the Renderosity forum for Poser is the biggest in the world and they always help out.
Considering the skills of the questioner, I'd suggest more strongly that she (?) look into Sean's site for what can be done with line art and Photoshop. Here, we both agree rather heartily.
We are all here to help the questioner and I take no offense at your disagreement...I'm just explaining why I listed what I did. I think everyone here has offered some good advice to think about. And lest anyone think I hopped in here (a tad late) because I'm a point monger, I'll request the questioner leave me out of any points. I was sufficiently motivated by the questioner's interests in self-publishing a book to "hop in late" to offer what little I could.
Cheers!
(Slynky)
>At the questioners last request, I posted links.
Yep, and apparently I missed that part the first time through. Sorry...
Yep, and apparently I missed that part the first time through. Sorry...
ASKER
I want to thank everyone for the time and effort they put into helping me with my question. You have all provided me with some wonderful guidance and then some. When it comes to awarding points, I wish there were more to go around, but I'll have to make my decision based on what is most practical for me now.
Yes, billmercer, my goal is to publish my book, using what I already have, Creative Suite, and to incur as little extra cost as possible, whether that be in regards to where or who publishes my book, or investment in new software. That is THE most important issue.
Slynky, Seifip, thanks for the great links and not only opening my mind to other possibilities, but giving me a small glimpse into what's possible with the amazing technology out there.
I feel like I'm giving a thank you/acceptance speech at the Oscars! But everything I said is true, and I'll be back with lots more questions because I need all the help I can get. Well, the music's starting to play and the man with the cane is coming!
Yes, billmercer, my goal is to publish my book, using what I already have, Creative Suite, and to incur as little extra cost as possible, whether that be in regards to where or who publishes my book, or investment in new software. That is THE most important issue.
Slynky, Seifip, thanks for the great links and not only opening my mind to other possibilities, but giving me a small glimpse into what's possible with the amazing technology out there.
I feel like I'm giving a thank you/acceptance speech at the Oscars! But everything I said is true, and I'll be back with lots more questions because I need all the help I can get. Well, the music's starting to play and the man with the cane is coming!
"Well, the music's starting to play and the man with the cane is coming!"
I'm just glad "Crash" won! I've been telling people about that movie since I saw it over half a year ago.
OK. I'm done. (smile)
I'm just glad "Crash" won! I've been telling people about that movie since I saw it over half a year ago.
OK. I'm done. (smile)
>I'm just glad "Crash" won!
Ya know, I still haven't seen it yet.
In fact, this year's list of nominees is remarkably similar to my current NetFlix queue
Ya know, I still haven't seen it yet.
In fact, this year's list of nominees is remarkably similar to my current NetFlix queue
What sort of illustrations are we talking about? What sort of book is it?
You say the final graphics must be vector. Why?
Is this a requirement from a service provider? Is it just a personal preference?
If the art MUST be vector, then you pretty much have to go with Illustrator.
Photoshop and InDesign have some limited capabilities for working with paths and vector art, but they're nothing in comparison to what Illustrator can do.
How much time do you have? I agree that Photoshop is easier, but it's not the right tool for vector art.
Illustrator is IMHO the toughest app in the suite to master, and you need to realize the magnitude of the challenge you're taking on.
If you need results quickly, and have some drawing/painting talent (I don't have a drop myself) you might want to draw your ideas on paper first, then scan them and bring the raster images into Illustrator. From there, you can use some nifty tools like the live trace feature to partially automate the creation of a vector illustration from your sketch. The results can range from hideous to amazingly good, depending on the nature of your drawing, and the style you're trying for.
If you're looking for online resources, there are lots of great tutorials, tricks, and tips available for free. You may want to start here for the basics...
http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/illustratortutorials/
I'd also suggest you start reading some of the forums and newsgroups devoted to AI. That's where you'll encounter real-world advice from folks actually using the apps.
http://groups.google.com/group/adobe.illustrator
http://www.allgraphicdesign.com/illus.html#resources