jamroc2000
asked on
I'M A WEIRD guy! I WANT to BREAK my MOBO!!!
I have a Soyo KT-400 Ultra Platinum Plus (Silver colored board) that is broken - boots to CMOS (also will enter and allow changes to CMOS) but will give "Hardware error, please see manufacturer" error and that's it. Never even get's to "No boot device found".
Anyway I'm teaching an advanced computer class and I WANT TO BREAK IT!!! Permenantly - I don't even care if I blow the Power Supply in doing this deviouse deed. (I SWEAR I'm not nuts!)
What I want to end up with is a machine that, when powered up, does nothing. No beeps, no video display (or garbage on screen would be fine). Seriously broken!
It would be cool if the green power LED mounted on the mobo would still come on so they become even more confused (I have'nt taught power yet so I don't want them to just ahead to that as a possible cause if possible)...but I don't want to see CMOS setup screen or anything (extent of damage really doesn't matter). This is obviously for diagnosis.
A friend suggested shorting pins 2 or 3 to ground for a few seconds (with CPU, RAM and VID removed of course). He said NOT pin one or any corner pins, nor any "center pins (of the four sides, don't short the middle pin). I mean the pins on the chip that is (the only) removable - maybe one inch square - BIOS right? Although it does NOT say Phoenix or Award or whatever and I forget what it DOES say. But knowing that the BIOS chip is replacable by the comsumer (can be ordered from Soyo and obviously no soldering involved) that must be it, right?
Any suggestions? A better way? Of course the more deviouse the better!!! hehehehe
Anyway I'm teaching an advanced computer class and I WANT TO BREAK IT!!! Permenantly - I don't even care if I blow the Power Supply in doing this deviouse deed. (I SWEAR I'm not nuts!)
What I want to end up with is a machine that, when powered up, does nothing. No beeps, no video display (or garbage on screen would be fine). Seriously broken!
It would be cool if the green power LED mounted on the mobo would still come on so they become even more confused (I have'nt taught power yet so I don't want them to just ahead to that as a possible cause if possible)...but I don't want to see CMOS setup screen or anything (extent of damage really doesn't matter). This is obviously for diagnosis.
A friend suggested shorting pins 2 or 3 to ground for a few seconds (with CPU, RAM and VID removed of course). He said NOT pin one or any corner pins, nor any "center pins (of the four sides, don't short the middle pin). I mean the pins on the chip that is (the only) removable - maybe one inch square - BIOS right? Although it does NOT say Phoenix or Award or whatever and I forget what it DOES say. But knowing that the BIOS chip is replacable by the comsumer (can be ordered from Soyo and obviously no soldering involved) that must be it, right?
Any suggestions? A better way? Of course the more deviouse the better!!! hehehehe
"... no beeps, no video display ..." ==> Why bother to break the motherboard ... just put in a bad CPU (or ZAP an old CPU and then install it). If the CPU's not running, you'll get nothing -- good board; bad board; or whatever !!
hehehehe interested ! why dont solder bridging the CPU socket on bottom side?
Why not get a screwdriver and break some of the tracks on the back of the mobo that go to the power plug. Just keep chopping one by one till it does nothing but the power light is still on.
Or you could hook it up turn it on and flick the switch on the back of the PSU, the voltage selection one, usually it has a sticker over it.
Have Fun
Or you could hook it up turn it on and flick the switch on the back of the PSU, the voltage selection one, usually it has a sticker over it.
Have Fun
Here's my help in your other duplicate post:
FriarTuk wrote in http:Q_21842902.html#16636481 "Boot to CMOS and no further...CRAZY!!! NOT a normal "No boot device found".":
> ==========================
> Comment from FriarTuk 05/08/2006 09:28PM
> ==========================
> try taking the mobo from the pc that's not working & try putting in
> into one of the other computers (keep only cpu, ram, video, & hard
> drive. if it can boot in another box fine then it could be the pwr
> supply in the old box.
>
> i say this because i ran into this problem on my son's soyo board & i
> did everything you had so far. when the soyo tech had me remove the
> board from the box, leaving it lay flat on cardboard, the pc booted
> fine. however, if i stood the box up the system (leaving mobo where
> it was) the system would restart back to the bios screen & not detected
> my hard drive.
>
> anyway worth a shot.
FriarTuk wrote in http:Q_21842902.html#16636481 "Boot to CMOS and no further...CRAZY!!! NOT a normal "No boot device found".":
> ==========================
> Comment from FriarTuk 05/08/2006 09:28PM
> ==========================
> try taking the mobo from the pc that's not working & try putting in
> into one of the other computers (keep only cpu, ram, video, & hard
> drive. if it can boot in another box fine then it could be the pwr
> supply in the old box.
>
> i say this because i ran into this problem on my son's soyo board & i
> did everything you had so far. when the soyo tech had me remove the
> board from the box, leaving it lay flat on cardboard, the pc booted
> fine. however, if i stood the box up the system (leaving mobo where
> it was) the system would restart back to the bios screen & not detected
> my hard drive.
>
> anyway worth a shot.
nevermind as i was thinking your were trying to repair this (hence your other post)
you must first decide what you wish to teach the class, & then find a way to disable that feature, if you want to do major damage, scratch off the soldered connection, or break off or pull out pins, hook up a car battery with jumper cables (that'll short it out) - go nuts! lol
you must first decide what you wish to teach the class, & then find a way to disable that feature, if you want to do major damage, scratch off the soldered connection, or break off or pull out pins, hook up a car battery with jumper cables (that'll short it out) - go nuts! lol
Find and locate the EEPROM that stores the BIOS, and damage that in some way. Either try to cook it with 12 volts across random pins, or use a scalpel to lift/cut some pins that go to the motherboard. If you can find a datasheet for the EEPROM, you can focus on the power supply pins.
ASKER
I don't want the damage visible - So no way can anything be soldered. The best solderer will still leave discolored areas where the iron touched the board. It's got to be some kind of short that damages something. Why not the BIOS as my friend suggested? It will come up totally dead then right? And besides, these guys are good.
As far as repair suggestions I already swapped out EVERYTHING, known good CPU, memory, vid card, all of it. Power supply is fine. It has to be the motherboard.
As far as repair suggestions I already swapped out EVERYTHING, known good CPU, memory, vid card, all of it. Power supply is fine. It has to be the motherboard.
Nemesis:
> Or you could hook it up turn it on and flick the switch on the back of the PSU,
> the voltage selection one, usually it has a sticker over it
I expect that that would be more likely to (dangerously!!) explode the power supply.
> Or you could hook it up turn it on and flick the switch on the back of the PSU,
> the voltage selection one, usually it has a sticker over it
I expect that that would be more likely to (dangerously!!) explode the power supply.
I don't see any learning value in this plan.
.
.
If these guys are good they will know straight away that the motherboard is screwed.
One thing I learnt early on is that there are usually 16 parts to a computer - it is pretty simple to swap them out and isolate the dead component
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One thing I learnt early on is that there are usually 16 parts to a computer - it is pretty simple to swap them out and isolate the dead component
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Much easier : short the reset pins on the front panel connector
^ Winner!
If you want students to learn how to identify what's wrong, you should have several malfunction boards I guess, with each its own problem,
some errors could be repaired, some only can be identified.
Then you would have for example a board with defective processor, one with blown parts, memmory, wrongly flashed bios.
Try to get you hands on a serie of older company-computers, all similar in build, so you even have spare material.
I think to present a broken and molested PC to your students will not be very educative. They can't repair it, and since it won't work they cannot properly diagnose it. It would be a waste of time.
some errors could be repaired, some only can be identified.
Then you would have for example a board with defective processor, one with blown parts, memmory, wrongly flashed bios.
Try to get you hands on a serie of older company-computers, all similar in build, so you even have spare material.
I think to present a broken and molested PC to your students will not be very educative. They can't repair it, and since it won't work they cannot properly diagnose it. It would be a waste of time.
For electronics training we used to run a bunch of wires to various points in the equipment. The wires went to switches that would either open or short a circuit in in some cases add a resister or even another circuit. (Some of the points were clipped or lifted leads with wires to each side running to the switch.)
The wires all ran into a box so the students couldn't see what they went to or did.
(All they could see was the wires to the board. Everything else was hidden the box. There is no way for them to tell which wires are actively doing something for the given fault and which had the switch set to normal.)
This enabled us to simulate dozens of different problems on one platform by using different switch combinations.
The instructor should document the switch combinations for various faults for later re-use.
The students are required to document their troubleshooting efforts on a form as they go for instructor review.
As in::
I saw this symptom...
So I checked this.......
I got this result.....
So I checked this next.....
-- and so on --
.
The wires all ran into a box so the students couldn't see what they went to or did.
(All they could see was the wires to the board. Everything else was hidden the box. There is no way for them to tell which wires are actively doing something for the given fault and which had the switch set to normal.)
This enabled us to simulate dozens of different problems on one platform by using different switch combinations.
The instructor should document the switch combinations for various faults for later re-use.
The students are required to document their troubleshooting efforts on a form as they go for instructor review.
As in::
I saw this symptom...
So I checked this.......
I got this result.....
So I checked this next.....
-- and so on --
.
ASKER
Thanks maduropa, about the only response who seems to grasp this as being a little more than a five year old with a bag of resistors and a power supply smoking them one by one.
I already DO have 5 motherboards, all at ariouse stages of "discontent". What I don't have is a board that won't POST. If they know the PSU is fine and the motherboard 5volt LED is on, I am assuming they are going to start pking around for a bad/shorted CPU/socket, bad ram, etc. when in fact what they should be paying attention to from the moment they short the power on pins that if the damn thing doesn't beep within the first couple minutes of troubleshooting then they have basically already sort of blown it - that pulling the CPU/RAM/VID, etc. should immediatley rsult in post code beeps.
Sounds basic to US but I want them to immediatley think Mobo or Components - verify that first! I'm not sure that's clear nough but I hope you get the idea.
I have the day set up so that between lessons the CPU will get swapped out with a bad one, same with other components. I modified a PSU so I can drop the voltages down to very unhealthy voltages (3.3 to 1.2, +5 to 2.5, 12 to 6...etc. It's variable so I can tweak it until it screws up exquisitley!
I already DO have 5 motherboards, all at ariouse stages of "discontent". What I don't have is a board that won't POST. If they know the PSU is fine and the motherboard 5volt LED is on, I am assuming they are going to start pking around for a bad/shorted CPU/socket, bad ram, etc. when in fact what they should be paying attention to from the moment they short the power on pins that if the damn thing doesn't beep within the first couple minutes of troubleshooting then they have basically already sort of blown it - that pulling the CPU/RAM/VID, etc. should immediatley rsult in post code beeps.
Sounds basic to US but I want them to immediatley think Mobo or Components - verify that first! I'm not sure that's clear nough but I hope you get the idea.
I have the day set up so that between lessons the CPU will get swapped out with a bad one, same with other components. I modified a PSU so I can drop the voltages down to very unhealthy voltages (3.3 to 1.2, +5 to 2.5, 12 to 6...etc. It's variable so I can tweak it until it screws up exquisitley!
Try leaving the CMOS reset jumper in the CLEAR position - that should prevent booting and is an actual thing they should be looking for.
A colleague of mine mentions the following.
Power on the computer and use a metal object to connect all bios-pins together to short it out.'
A damaged bios should not be able to start a post.
To verify this, you might take out the bios-chip, and see if it boots into any post when you juice it up.
Maybe you can alse destroy the chip outside the board with some high voltages.
disturbing a flash in progress won't help, because a part of the bios remains intact, and enables the trick with the disk bios-repair.
Power on the computer and use a metal object to connect all bios-pins together to short it out.'
A damaged bios should not be able to start a post.
To verify this, you might take out the bios-chip, and see if it boots into any post when you juice it up.
Maybe you can alse destroy the chip outside the board with some high voltages.
disturbing a flash in progress won't help, because a part of the bios remains intact, and enables the trick with the disk bios-repair.
sorry, too enthusiastic after I talked with my colleague,
reread and you allready talked about the bios.
Well, your friend mentioned it, and my colleague confirmed it, (used it to return a heavily malfunctioning moherboard).
try to boot without the chip, and see what happens,
reread and you allready talked about the bios.
Well, your friend mentioned it, and my colleague confirmed it, (used it to return a heavily malfunctioning moherboard).
try to boot without the chip, and see what happens,
Why not use my suggestion : Much easier : short the reset pins on the front panel connector
I assume that you tried CMOS reset and emergency BIOS flash while troubleshooting board.
If you can get an emergency BIOS flash to run, drop power while BIOS is flashing. That should scramble the BIOS.
If you can get an emergency BIOS flash to run, drop power while BIOS is flashing. That should scramble the BIOS.
Why don't you just disable power to the BIOS chip then.
Break off or disconnent a lead.
Cut a solder trace.
Very easy.
Just have to look up the pinout for your BIOS chip.
.
Break off or disconnent a lead.
Cut a solder trace.
Very easy.
Just have to look up the pinout for your BIOS chip.
.
No beeps: Just unplug the PC Speaker connection
No video: take out the memory
...done... and nothing broken!
No video: take out the memory
...done... and nothing broken!
steveiam ...how is this so dangerous? maybe if you flicked the switch with your tounge, but it didn't hurt me or anyone else that I know has done it. Sure you usually get a pretty blue spark out of the PSU but thats all part of the fun. Plus, do you think that this huge power surge would have no effect on the MOBO...? This way, you provide a heafty surge to all parts of the MOBO. Its pretty likley to do the trick.
Although I've seen a system run perfectly for years to come with only a new PSU. AND jamroc2000 said in the very first post that ha would be willing to sacrifice a PSU.
Although I've seen a system run perfectly for years to come with only a new PSU. AND jamroc2000 said in the very first post that ha would be willing to sacrifice a PSU.
You can always hook it up to a car battery....will fry most every circuit on the MOBO...then when you replace the power supply, they can test that and it will work fine....you may or may not get the green light on the MOBO, but I guarentee it doesn't turn on again.
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and it never will post again !
i.m.h.o. you can repair the wrongly flashed bios with a boot-disk that automatically flashes the bios again, so I'm not sure it rules out a post or beep.
The first lines of a bios cannot be flashed, they contain a procedure, that accesses the floppy and simple graphics, so an emergency flash could be started in case a flash went wrong. This answer comes up many times in forum-questions, "Help, I did something wrong while I flashed my bios"
Could be this procedure doesn't work anymore with present motherboards, but I've seen it working in the old days.
Good luck.
btw.
also re-read the comments, Willcomp mentioned the accepted answer also, but a little bit earlier.
The first lines of a bios cannot be flashed, they contain a procedure, that accesses the floppy and simple graphics, so an emergency flash could be started in case a flash went wrong. This answer comes up many times in forum-questions, "Help, I did something wrong while I flashed my bios"
Could be this procedure doesn't work anymore with present motherboards, but I've seen it working in the old days.
Good luck.
btw.
also re-read the comments, Willcomp mentioned the accepted answer also, but a little bit earlier.
Hmmmm!! Same suggestion I gave earlier, but got no credit for.
Good suggestions get no credit . . .
You all knew the risks of joining a question starting with;
Title: I'M A WEIRD guy! ..... :)
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Title: I'M A WEIRD guy! ..... :)
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jamroc2000, why me??
willcomp got in first with this - I missed that post & only saw the "putting sharp metal objects inside the case" solutions.
I'm sure Callandor could help with reallocating the points for this if you leave a note here.
Thanks
M :o)
willcomp got in first with this - I missed that post & only saw the "putting sharp metal objects inside the case" solutions.
I'm sure Callandor could help with reallocating the points for this if you leave a note here.
Thanks
M :o)
Thanks folks. Whatever happens, I appreciate the support.
everyone likes to get credited for his efforts . . even if it's only points
Yes,, no kidding..
If you bridge 50 connections randomly, you are bound to hit something good! :)
But, isnt the board stuffed already? If it doesnt boot now with a weird error, what more are you hoping for?
The other thing you could do (which I always enjoy) is splitting a power cord **** WARNING HIGH VOLTAGE, NO RESPONSIBILITY TAKEN **** and then just dragging around the active and neutral leads across the board - BOOM
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