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Ive already asked to a degree, but I have a further question.

Posted on 2006-05-13
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Im about to purchase a new fan - Fatal1ty 120mm CPU fan.

1.) I understand this is the best for Socket 478


2.) My processor is a P4 3.0mhz 1GB L2 Cache Hyper-Threading


3.) I have tried two fans - the stock P4 and a CoolMaster, and neither of them see to bring the temp below 55 C ..


4.) On boot up I run at about  52-60 C (from BIOS)


5.) Normal operating conditions run at 55-68 C -- I am told this is too high

So my basic question is .. is there anything else that could be causing the temp to be so high? OR does this really just require a more powerful fan?

I have a great exhaust system setup too, so the are is in and out (exhaust fan).

If anyone could guide some light before I buy the new fan, I would apprechiate it.
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Question by:w3developing
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by:w3developing
ID: 16673795
General room temp is 50-60 F, so I don't think that is an issue.
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by:smiffy13
ID: 16673814
Who says that 52 - 60C is too high? My 2.8Ghz runs at these temps without any problem. According to Intel you should be aiming to have a case temperature of 40C or less and the CPU will adjust the CPU fan accordingly: http://support.intel.com/support/processors/pentium4/sb/CS-007999.htm
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by:w3developing
ID: 16673847
Well.. the guy at CompUSA told me I should be running at 42-45 C ...

Several other guys told me the same thing .. I don't need to mention names, but I think this my be turning into an opinion based problem where the fact is ... maybe it's really not a problem at all.
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by:w3developing
ID: 16673858
From the Pentium documentation:

" if the factory programmed thermal design temperature is exceeded (see Table 2 or the Pentium 4 Processor Datasheet for complete thermal specifications.). While the Thermal Monitor feature is active, the system's performance may drop below its normal peak performance level."

When the CPU temp gets around 70 C, I have noticed my system starting to choke up a bit, so I think this might be due to internal CPU mechanisms.. I would rather not have this issue ..

Anyhow, would the new fan I mentioned above bring down the temp w/out question?
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by:jhance
ID: 16673921
>>.) Normal operating conditions run at 55-68 C -- I am told this is too high

Whoever told you this is an idiot.  Sorry, but this is quite normal and quite acceptable.  The P4 is rated by Intel to run NORMALLY at MORE THAN 70C.  68C is well below that.  I think you're worrying a lot about nothing.
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by:smiffy13
ID: 16673994
I agree: you'd be advised to rely on what Intel publish rather than the opinion of someone that wants to sell something. As I said before - my 2.8 Ghz runs up to 68 - 70C without any problems, initially I thought that was too high, then I read the Intel documents and realised that if my case was well ventilated and kept within Intel specs then the stock P4 fan would do it's job. So.. what kind of case do you have? or more importantly what is your case temperature? what sort of case fans do you have?

Buying a new CPU fan will not reduce your CPU temperature. Your current CPU is normal and within normal expectations for that CPU.
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by:rindi
ID: 16674036
According to the intel site that or at least a similar CPU has a thermal spec of 70°. You should be fine.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/scripts/details.asp?sSpec=SL6WK&ProcFam=483&PkgType=ALL&SysBusSpd=ALL&CorSpd=6581
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by:w3developing
ID: 16674128
CoolMaster CPU fan, and an external fan (pulling air out)

Case is a SI-1 ATX-Tower Case 400 Watt Power supply

CPU 54 C
GPU 46 C
GPU Ambient 40 C
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by:Lee W, MVP
ID: 16674188
Guys working at compusa may be well meaning and nice and even intelligent... but they are working at compusa on the sales floor - they WANT you to spend money... and because they want you to spend money, providing accurate information is not something the company on the whole cares about.  Quite simply, DO NOT take the word of a compusa guy as fact.  Others have provided links to INTEL documentation on max heat... this link, though dated, still includes a CPU over 3 GHz and shows that nax tenmps are no less than 69 C.
http://images.tomshardware.com/2003/02/17/benchmark_marathon/cpu_chart.gif
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by:garycase
ID: 16674191
w3developing --

"... I understand this is the best for Socket 478 " ==>  NO !!  The Fatality is a nice unit, but the CNPS-9500 is better.   You have to get the LED version to get the Socket 478 mounts, but it's simply a better cooler.   The Fatality has a thermal resistance of 0.17 °C/W ==> the 9500 has a thermal resistance of 0.12 °C/W.   This means, for example, that if your CPU is dissipating 85 watts it will run about 4 °C cooler with a 9500.   Not a huge difference -- but it is a difference.

"... Normal operating conditions run at 55-68 C -- I am told this is too high " ==> It IS too high, assuming by "normal operating conditions" you're not referring to running CPU-intensive programs.   For example, my 3.4GHz P-IV is, at this moment, running at 39 °C, and it never exceeds 42-43 for office-type applications, web browsing, etc.   When running very CPU-intensive applications (video rendering, for example => or, if you're a gamer, intense games), then it is normal to get to the high 50's or low 60's.   But I would hardly call 55-68 "normal".

"... The P4 is rated by Intel to run NORMALLY at MORE THAN 70C " ==> NO !!! (at least not for any modern P-IV.   Earlier models did have higher thermal specs, but every current P-IV is rated below 70 °C)    The chart I referred you to in a previous question related to this clearly shows that the thermal specification for 3.0GHz CPU's ranges from 66 °C to 70 °C.   These are the MAXIMUM temperatures your CPU should ever be run at.   They WILL run at higher temperatures - but it is NOT a good idea.  Here's the complete set of thermal specs for P-IV's:  http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/asmo-na/eng/products/box_processors/desktop/proc_dsk_p4/technical_reference/182403.htm

smiffy13 -- if your 2.8GHz CPU is an older, socket 478 CPU then it's thermal spec is 75 °C and the temps you're seeing (68 - 70) are okay (as long as these are 100% CPU utilization temps and not "normal operating" temps);   if it's a newer CPU then the thermal spec is 67.7 °C and you should consider improving your cooling solution.
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by:smiffy13
ID: 16674201
OK - it's not the greatest case around but it's doing the job! I don't think the CoolMaster fan is doing anything more then the stock P4 will do, but as I (and others have said) your CPU temperature is within normal specs and certainly matches what I'm getting with my 2.8Ghz.
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by:garycase
ID: 16674205
... if your local CompUSA doesn't have the 9500LED, here's a good source:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835118223
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by:smiffy13
ID: 16674279
Garycase: I've got an 820 in a Thermaltake Armor case, the case has 2 x 120mm fans, 2 x 90cm fans, plus a fan in the power supply. I've just been through an Australian summer with indoor temperatures reaching 38C, I'm running with a stock Intel CPU fan and my temps meet the Intel specs: http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/asmo-na/eng/products/desktop/processor/processors/pentium-d/tech/216412.htm - which in summary says that the air intake maximum should be 39C and maximum case is 64.1C. Show me a site that says that my CPU temp shouldn't exceed 67.7C.
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by:garycase
ID: 16674314
r.e. your comment about this being "... an opinion based problem where the fact is ... maybe it's really not a problem at all." ==>  Many discussions on this forum obviously involve divergent opinions.   Where or not this is "a problem" is, to some extent, an opinion -- but if your "normal operating conditions" do not involve intense CPU activities then the range you've indicated (55 - 68) IS a problem.   In a well-cooled system a modern P-IV should NEVER reach 68 °C.   As an example, the highest temp I've ever seen on my system -- after 6 hours of DVD Shrink (a VERY CPU-intense application) -- is 64 °C.    ... and that was when I hadn't "blown out" the dust bunnies for a couple of months.   Normally it won't exceed 60 or 61 -- even with hours of 100% CPU utilization.

Intel publishes thermal specifications for a reason -- pay attention to them :-)

By the way, I wouldn't pay much attention to the "Boot Up" temperatures.   While the system is booting, the CPU is not being throttled at all (e.g. it's running at effectively 100%); so it's normal to have a fairly high temperature immediately after the system boots up (mine's usually about 50).   But after it "idles" for a few minutes, it should stabilize at a lower temperature (typically the low 40's for a P-IV ==> mine's very well cooled, and stabilizes around 38 a few minutes after boot-up).
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by:garycase
ID: 16674362
Smiffy13 -- r.e. "... Show me a site that says that my CPU temp shouldn't exceed 67.7C." ==>  Well, since you asked ...

The chart I linked to above doesn't include the dual-core thermal specs, so here's the thermal specs for those:
http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/asmo-na/eng/products/box_processors/desktop/proc_dsk_pd/technical_reference/216413.htm

Note that the thermal spec for your 820 CPU is 64.1 °C

... so at 70 °C you're running your CPU at 10% OVER its rated temperature.
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by:garycase
ID: 16674369
... Intel's comment on running CPU's over their thermal specifications:   "... Allowing processors to operate at temperatures beyond their maximum specified operating temperature may shorten the life of the processor and can cause unreliable operation."  
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by:garycase
ID: 16674420
... as an example of what a really good heatsink can do, consider this:  For an 820 CPU (like smiffy13 has) that dissipates 95 watts of power, a heatsink with a thermal spec of 0.12 °C/W will result in a temperature increase of 11.4 °C => this will be the difference between the "idle" temperature and the "100% load" temp.   This will easily keep the CPU well under the thermal specification.

Note that the actual performance will typically not be quite as good as the theoretical capabilities for a couple of reasons:  (1)  there are other components in the area of the CPU that can be contributing additional heat (voltage regulators, Northbridge, Southbridge, etc.) to the system that is not removed by the heatsink;  (2)  the ambient temperature can reduce the effectiveness of the heatsink;  and (3) as dust accumulates on the heatsink fins the efficiency is reduced.   #3 is often the worst of these problems; but is fortunately also very easy to control:  simply blow out the "dust bunnies" every month or two.   It's also easy to know when it's time to do this if you monitor your temps -- when you notice the system's running a couple of degrees warmer than "normal", it's almost certain that you need to blow it out !!
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by:garycase
ID: 16674485
... by the way, the thermal resistance specifications Zalman publishes are very accurate.  My system typically idles around 38 - 40.   If I run a 100% CPU utilization application for an extended time (10 minutes is plenty, but it doesn't change if it runs for hours), my temps rise to about 60 ==> an increase of 22 °C.   My heatsink is a Zalman CNPS-7000, with a thermal resistance spec of .29 to .22, depending on fan speed.   My CPU has a design power of 89 watts.
So the "expected increase" in temperature should be between 20 and 26 °C => right in line with the 22 °C I'm actually seeing.   My temps are obviously well-controlled, and well under my thermal spec of 68 °C.   If they weren't, I'd swap my heatsink for a 9500 :-)
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by:garycase
ID: 16674858
smiffy13 -- just in case you didn't notice the details in the Intel link I posted earlier, the 67.7 °C thermal spec is for the 511, 520, & 521 CPU's => all of which are also 2.8 GHz.   You hadn't initially mentioned yours was dual-core, so I assumed you had one of these.   The dual-core CPU's have lower thermal specs, as Intel is working hard on reducing the temperatures their CPU's run at, and is designing them to run cooler.
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by:Gendaru
ID: 16675347
I don't think the temp should be as high as 60C in BIOS.  P4s have very good idle efficiency, and use very little power when not in use (such as while sitting at a bios screen).  Have you checked to see what the voltage is set at in bios?  Even extremely minor voltage increases can have a large impact on the cpu temperature.  Also, how are you applying the thermal paste when you replace the cooling device?  It should be spread paperthin, evenly onto the entire surface of the CPU's aluminum IHS, not on the heatsink.

If that thing is starting up at 60C, it's definitely likely that it could get hot enough to start throttling during high loads, and nowhere has the OP mentioned using any software to monitor the temp during operation.  He could be checking it only in BIOS, which would give him about 70C after the reboot time if it's getting up to 80C where P4s start to throttle.
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by:garycase
ID: 16828923
w3developing -- Did you ever replace your heatsink?   ... if so, how are your temps now ??

smiffy13 -- Did you do anything to your system to get the temps down to Intel's specs ??
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by:smiffy13
ID: 16829490
garycase: no I didn't do anything, now I'm in the Australian winter my CPU rarely exceeds 50C.
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by:garycase
ID: 16829541
50's a lot better than the 68 - 70C you indicated before  ("... my 2.8 Ghz runs up to 68 - 70C ...").
As long as it's working well, it's not a big deal to be a little above the thermal spec ==> but your initial thought ("... initially I thought that was too high ...") was absolutely correct;  and I'd at least be sure to blow the case out with compressed air (dust on the heatsink notably reduces its efficiency) and possibly even remove the heatsink and remount it -- after a good cleaning -- with Artic Silver 5.   A good project to tackle before the next Australian summer :-)    With a thermal spec of 64.1 I would not want to run a CPU at 70 (or even 68) !!   My CPU's thermal spec is 68, and the hottest it's ever been was 66 -- and only one time at that (I very much needed to blow out the heatsink that time).   I know that because I've got a thermal alarm set at 66.



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by:w3developing
ID: 16829566
Yes. I did get it resolved. My motherboard actually had something wrong with it, and as a result there were issues in relation to my fan - among other things. Im running the same load now, and my CPU runs 61 at peak. Im thinking this is ok.
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garycase earned 2000 total points
ID: 16829882
Good, glad it's resolved.   A 61 peak at max load is fine -- that's well below the thermal spec.   Don't forget to close out this question (by either "Accepting" an answer or Splitting the points).
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