Editing and Content Requested

Greetings folks,

As many of you may recall, I've posted (reposted) a lengthy comment on backup in the past.  Well... I think I've finally gotten the web page nearly done.  Of course, I don't want to stop with it being "ok" - I want it to be great.  So, I'm asking for your help.  

Here's what I'm looking for:
*Editing - corrections for typos OR for factual errors
*Differences of opinion (but please, make them well thought out - if you disagree with something I've stated or recommended, please explain why)
*Content - specifically, if anyone REALLY knows the ins and outs of Linux backup, Solaris backup, Macintosh Backup (OS X and Pre OS X), BeOS backup (get the picture?).  You don't have to make it sound link I wrote it, BUT expect me to edit it somewhat to fit the style of how the page is written.  Also, don't try to provide detailed instructions on how to do a given backup - I've written this as a guide to best practices and methodologies... not a how-to for various products.
*Links - links to REALLY good articles on backing up SQL, Exchange, MySQL, Oracle, Windows, Linux, MAcintosh, etc.  No discussion group threads though.  I want nicely written/formatted stuff (at least as nice as what I wrote/laid out - which shouldn't be too difficult to find - I'm not a web designer.).
*Links to backup products, such as software and hardware vendors (but major ones - Cobain backup is nice, but a something I'm PROBABLY not going to list).

Here's what I'm offering:

*A share of the points of this question.
*Credit - I'll link to your EE profile with a note about what you contributed.  For example:
    <link to your ee profile>eeuser</link> (Most of the info on Linux Backup)
    <link to your ee profile>useratee</link> (Editing assistance)
*An open invitation to reference the link any time any place (you could without my open invitation, as it is a publicly available link, but I'm just saying, I won't even think of objecting even when used against me here on EE).

Final note:
By posting your ideas, thoughts, etc, you are granting me the right to non-exclusively use your material on my website.

Final note 2:
You can, of course, write up your own.  More power to you, should you decide to go that wrote.  It's not impossible that your words wouldn't be better than mine, that's why I'm asking for the help.

You can find the 30K or so page at:
http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/backup.asp
LVL 98
Lee W, MVPTechnology and Business Process AdvisorAsked:
Who is Participating?
 
callrsCommented:
OK finally done (I think lol).
Here's a TEMPORARY link: http://www.geocities.com/callrs/lwcomputingGrammarEtc.rar.zip. (It's a rar file needing the free winrar www.rarlab.com . Name changed to .zip since yahoo doesn't like the better rar format :-p)

If someone can provide me with a more permanent link to place the file at (does EE allow us to upload files?), then all the better.

Mostly advice on grammar, readability, and the like, with many sentences scrutinized & alternatives given. But some comments on content too.
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callrsCommented:
benefitted --> benefited
preconcieved -> preconceived
consistant -> consistent
habbits -> habits
practical to do on on a daily basis --> (delete second 'on')
milage -> mileage
requirments -> requirements
iOmega -> Iomega (3 occurrences)
perodic -> periodic
seperately -> separately
accesssed -> accessed
frisbie -> Frisbee

Search for a post titled "Spell check" at www.quickmacros.com/forum, currently under the "Computer World" sub-forum, for info & a nice tune about spelling : )

Does the program you used to edit your web site have a spell check?. If not, let me know what program you used & I'll pull up some spell-check resources to use with it.

I'll see if I can comment on the content of your web page later.
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Duncan MeyersCommented:
And forth -> fourth - three lines up from Software.
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callrsCommented:
I'm over half way through editing your write up. I caught the 'forth' error, and a bunch of other grammar & readability issues, but instead of posting individually, I will post as a collection. Do you prefer I send it by e-mail, or post here?
-R.S.
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pjedmondCommented:
1.    In the index, subparas for software uses a 'diamond', whereas links uses i,ii,etc - uniformity?
2.    Might want "Contents" to be bold and capitalised to match the other PARA titles.
3.    Other thoughts:

May wish to add the following backup solutions:

Legato (Big player at the top end of backup solutions):

http://www.legato.com

Other areas possibly to touch on in software:
tar
rsync
cpio

USB sticks (or perhaps mention them under removeable hard drives)

HTH:)
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Lee W, MVPTechnology and Business Process AdvisorAuthor Commented:
You can upload files to www.ee-stuff.com

Still half asleep right now, but thanks for the help so far.  Will actually read the details a little later when I'm really awake.
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
I'll leave the spellcheck and grammar corrections to others, since those seem to be well in hand.

My overall thought is that it's an excellent overview of the traditional backup terms and processes.   The one place I think it falls short is in not discussing the various synchronization options available with many modern backup utilities.   With any tape or other removeable media you have to use one of the traditional backup techniques => full, differential, or incremental.   But with an online backup (another disk), you can run daily synchronizations and your backup is ALWAYS current.   Many utilities support this today.

But having a nicely done web page that provides all the detail one might wish to read is a MAJOR improvement over the stock "list" you have frequently posted in the past.    I think questions are MUCH better addressed with a focused answer and background links than with very long posts that talk in generalities and don't specifically address the question at hand.

VERY nicely done :-)
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
... as you know, I also don't think a single backup is sufficient => there should always be an off-line copy (whether tape, DVD, floppies, punched cards :-), or whatever) in addition to the primary backup.   ... and of course an off-site disaster recovery backup.
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Lee W, MVPTechnology and Business Process AdvisorAuthor Commented:
I know I said I'm looking for people to write parts on areas I'm not familiar with.  If your really not comfortable doing that, that's fine... but I'd love to see you write up something and post it on your site - I'd be happy to link to it.

That's what I get for writing this and then asking the question at 3am my time.  I should have run a spellcheck myself - though a few things still wouldn't have been obvious.

callrs,
I haven't looked over the RAR'd file yet, but I will tonight or tomorrow.

> benefitted --> benefited
fixed.

> preconcieved -> preconceived
fixed

> consistant -> consistent
fixed

> habbits -> habits
fixed

> practical to do on on a daily basis --> (delete second 'on')
fixed

> milage -> mileage
fixed

> requirments -> requirements
fixed

> iOmega -> Iomega (3 occurrences)
fixed

> perodic -> periodic
fixed

> seperately -> separately
fixed

> accesssed -> accessed
fixed

> frisbie -> Frisbee
fixed
-------------------------------------------------------------
meyersd,
> And forth -> fourth - three lines up from Software.
fixed
-------------------------------------------------------------
pjedmond,
> 1.    In the index, subparas for software uses a 'diamond', whereas
> links uses i,ii,etc - uniformity?

Good point - fixed.

> 2.    Might want "Contents" to be bold and capitalised to match the
> other PARA titles.

Excellent note.  I also intend to come up with a title (hoping for 4 words or less...)

> 3.    Other thoughts:

> May wish to add the following backup solutions:

> Legato (Big player at the top end of backup solutions):

http://www.legato.com

Was about to when I clicked the link - they are now owned by EMC - EMC makes Retrospect as well.  Didn't see and clear links (in the 2 minutes I looked) for Legato products.  I'll include them if you can find one (I'm looking for a direct link to the product's page at the company's site (like with Acronis True Image).


> Other areas possibly to touch on in software:
> tar
> rsync
> cpio

Correct me if I'm wrong - these are largely *nix based utils (I know there are Windows versions).  I could mention them... and I still might... but I'm hoping for a volunteer to come up with a few paragraphs specifically on Linux, Solaris, and Mac, so I'm going to hold off for now.  
 
> USB sticks (or perhaps mention them under removeable hard drives)

I'll try to work this in in the next couple of days.  Thanks for pointing it out.
---------------------------------------------
garycase,
> My overall thought is that it's an excellent overview of the traditional
> backup terms and processes.   The one place I think it falls short is
> in not discussing the various synchronization options available with
> many modern backup utilities.   With any tape or other removeable media
> you have to use one of the traditional backup techniques => full,
> differential, or incremental.   But with an online backup (another
> disk), you can run daily synchronizations and your backup is ALWAYS
> current.   Many utilities support this today.

I think I unconsciously avoided this as I don't consider those as backups that should be relied upon.  Things like Volume Shadow Copy - that is what you are referring to, right?  But it is a fair point and one that, the more I CONSCIOUSLY think about it, the more I agree, it should be discussed.


> But having a nicely done web page that provides all the detail one
> might wish to read is a MAJOR improvement over the stock "list" you
> have frequently posted in the past.    I think questions are MUCH better
> addressed with a focused answer and background links than with very
> long posts that talk in generalities and don't specifically address
> the question at hand.

Trying to avoid debate (ok, maybe not trying that hard), but I posted that because in many, many cases, people don't understand how backups are done and things that should be taken into consideration when implementing them.  Even in the stock post, I tried to provide at least an intial intro to it to address some potentially specific questions.

> ... as you know, I also don't think a single backup is sufficient =>
> there should always be an off-line copy (whether tape, DVD, floppies,
> punched cards :-), or whatever) in addition to the primary backup.  
> ... and of course an off-site disaster recovery backup.

I should emphasize this more.  I'll give some thought on how to do that.
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
Having lived in Europe for several years, I became quite accustomed to the British spellings of many words.  Benefitted is an anomaly, as we (Americans) accept it either way -- but the Brits would always use two t's (benefitted) ==> as they would use double l's in many other words (cancelled, fuelled, labelled, travelled, etc.)


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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
It may have both listed, but no self-respecting Brit would only use one "t"  :-)
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CallandorCommented:
Perhaps include a section on the features that some backups programs have and why you would use one over the other?
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callrsCommented:
Re "callrs, ... fixed...fixed...fixed...fixed...fixed..."
For efficiency, I prefer "callrs,... all fixed" : )
Spell check was just a super-quick preliminary edit. The rest is in depth & seemed too long to list here (16k file)..

I have a passion for language. Feel free to comment about my edits. (by email if you want; email in profile).
-R.S.
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GnsCommented:
>> 3.    Other thoughts:
>>
>> May wish to add the following backup solutions:
>>
>> Legato (Big player at the top end of backup solutions):
>>
>> http://www.legato.com
>
>Was about to when I clicked the link - they are now owned by EMC - EMC makes Retrospect as well.  Didn't see and clear links (in the 2 minutes I looked) for Legato
>products.  I'll include them if you can find one (I'm looking for a direct link to the product's page at the company's site (like with Acronis True Image).

The product family is named "Networker" and was bought by EMC quite some time ago. It chanegd name to EMC Networker, instead of Legato Networker, not that long ago.
As it is, EMC being the "shop-happy" types they are, EMC totes at least three different backup solutions catering to slightly different crowds.

The Networker product is mainly for semi-big iron... Both *nix and windows.

Now, I've not read through your paper in-depth, just had a quick ogle, but it seems aimed at rather small-ish types of setups. You are pretty low on tape-changer, SAN and dedicated backup-to-disk/cloning-to-tape-for-off-site (yeah, all the rage, in the "enterprise backup" end of the market:-) shemes:-):-). That would probably be where the Unix stuff would come in:-). What type of detail would you need? Finished docu-style guides? Or just pointers to products and manuals?
If it is something somewhere in between, I might be able to type something up late tomorrow, or monday.

-- Glenn
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pjedmondCommented:
http://software.emc.com/products/software_az/networker.htm

for what was Legato Networker. This is the BIG end of backups for Storage Networks, Huge tape arrays, and other Data Storage Centre type solutions for bank transactions, the stock exchange etc where there are huge amounts of data. They also have modules to allow 'hot' backups from the most commonly available databases that are required to run 24x7.

I agree - the emc site is c**P, and slow......need to send an expert around to sort them out! ;)
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GnsCommented:
Did I forget the link? Obviously:-).

Actually, Legato-turned-EMC Networker is most common in non-Solaris Unices, while the Veritas products used to hold sway in that end... "Solstice backup" used to be a rebranded Veritas product (if it was Netbackup or Backup Exec, I neither remember nor care:-). Still, a fair amount of sites use Networker on Solaris (it used to be the primary development platform), for many a good reason. Stability, versatility and compatibility come to mind... Very good platform support has been a very good point, while generally sh*tty support has been ... rather negative. With EMC now at the rudder, we're looking at some betterment there though.

-- Glenn
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rindiCommented:
Good work, leew. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. An incremental backup can make sense when using Disk 2 disk 2 Tape backups. The backups on the Disk can be kept for a full backup cycle (next full backup), and since a full backup and all incrementals are on the same disk, you don't have to play disk or tape jockey when restoring.

2. DVD backups, make a difference between standard DVD's and dual layers, as the price of dual layer DVD's is still rather high.

3. Maybe explain or link to something about GFS.

4. In the recovery price, which includes the time to restore the data, also include the time to get the backup media from off site (might mean a drive of 2 hours, or access to a bank vault where the devices are stored, which may be closed on weekends or after hours...).

5. Say something about D2D2T, which (in my point of view), is a very good combination of different technoligies, or D2D2D, where the 3rd Disk would be the one you take off site.

Personally I'm still new to linux and backup, but will be looking into that, so I might give some input on that some time later.
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Lee W, MVPTechnology and Business Process AdvisorAuthor Commented:
rindi - thanks for the comments - I do intend more work on the page soon.  At the moment I'm more concerned with accuracy than ommissions, but I DO want this to be as complete and accurate as possible, so I will certainly take into consideration your comments (actually have an HTML comment in the page to include something of D2D2T)

All - I hate to close this question as I feel still more good information may be forthcoming - but I did promise you all a share of the points, so I'm closing it now.  I am going to try to keep this question unlocked so additional comments can be left.  If you have further information you feel would be useful to include, please contact me via the web site or the email address in my profile.
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