Faxes interrupt Internet traffic.
We have a customer with a standard ADSL connection in the UK. They are using a router which works happily & the line is shared with a fax machine. There are two extensions to the phone line & the ADSL itself remains stable when no faxes are being sent or received. Whenever there is fax traffic, the Internet access slows to a crawl, often breaking connections. The router shows no sign of there being any drop in the connection rate nor is the Internet access ever dropped. Both of the telephone extensions are filtered - one with BT's own ADSL filter at the socket and the other with a standard Belkin filter.
This isn't the first customer we've experienced this issue with, thankfully the other customer doesn't use the Internet very much at all, so they've elected to live with it. I'd much appreciate any kind of solution to why this is occuring - this second customer relies on their Internet connection & we can't explain why the faxes interfere when the connections are filtered - we're 100% sure the filters are working.
This isn't the first customer we've experienced this issue with, thankfully the other customer doesn't use the Internet very much at all, so they've elected to live with it. I'd much appreciate any kind of solution to why this is occuring - this second customer relies on their Internet connection & we can't explain why the faxes interfere when the connections are filtered - we're 100% sure the filters are working.
Hello Barthax...Have you contacted your ADSL provider to have them take a router snapshot to make sure they've got it right.
Check ' Network Control Panel' for excess protocols i.e.: NETBuIE, IPX/SPX, NDIS WAN, ICS, etc. Have you disabled 'Internet connection sharing' for the LAN connection? Also you can try using a Ethernet cable to connect the ADSL router up,(no filters, no surge protectors, and no phone extension cable), the ADSL signal attenuates on phone cables much more than on Ethernet. How far is the FAX machine from the Router? EMI can cause problems like slow browsing..I hope this helps...Booda
Check ' Network Control Panel' for excess protocols i.e.: NETBuIE, IPX/SPX, NDIS WAN, ICS, etc. Have you disabled 'Internet connection sharing' for the LAN connection? Also you can try using a Ethernet cable to connect the ADSL router up,(no filters, no surge protectors, and no phone extension cable), the ADSL signal attenuates on phone cables much more than on Ethernet. How far is the FAX machine from the Router? EMI can cause problems like slow browsing..I hope this helps...Booda
ASKER
The fax machine is a Brother FAX-T96. I've not yet had chance to look it up - so I'm not sure if that counts as "digital fax".
The ADSL provider (BT in the UK regardless of the ISP) have performed their "full line check" - this essentially means didly squat here in the UK, other than "it should work".
The router, currently, is a Draytek Vigor2600V - it's the customer's third router, so we're sure it's not the router itself. The LAN sits behind an SBS server with ISA 2004 filtering happily. The router plugs directly into a split-socket filter on the wall - installed by BT so we have no control over what's behind the box. The fax machine sits across the room from the router on a seperate socket (obviously an extension of the first).
Ethernet cables were in use - they've just had a rewiring by BT so they're out (the problem existed with Ethernet cabling also - we just hadn't pinpointed it back then: hindsight being 20-20).
The ADSL provider (BT in the UK regardless of the ISP) have performed their "full line check" - this essentially means didly squat here in the UK, other than "it should work".
The router, currently, is a Draytek Vigor2600V - it's the customer's third router, so we're sure it's not the router itself. The LAN sits behind an SBS server with ISA 2004 filtering happily. The router plugs directly into a split-socket filter on the wall - installed by BT so we have no control over what's behind the box. The fax machine sits across the room from the router on a seperate socket (obviously an extension of the first).
Ethernet cables were in use - they've just had a rewiring by BT so they're out (the problem existed with Ethernet cabling also - we just hadn't pinpointed it back then: hindsight being 20-20).
Just to check the obvious, there are ADSL filters installed on ALL of the telephone/fax extensions?
ASKER
Hi Ian,
Yep:
> Both of the telephone extensions are filtered - one with BT's own ADSL filter at the socket and the other with a standard Belkin filter.
Yep:
> Both of the telephone extensions are filtered - one with BT's own ADSL filter at the socket and the other with a standard Belkin filter.
Sorry to state the obvious!!!
It is an issue i have come across, but as i said, the only solution we had was to move the fax machine to a seperate BT line (Fortunately the office had another external line available) this immediatley solved all problems withe the ADSL abnd faxes could be sent and received without interupting anything...
Is it possible for you to try this?
It is an issue i have come across, but as i said, the only solution we had was to move the fax machine to a seperate BT line (Fortunately the office had another external line available) this immediatley solved all problems withe the ADSL abnd faxes could be sent and received without interupting anything...
Is it possible for you to try this?
ASKER
Not possible in the short term, no - the number in use on that line has long been the company fax number & they do a reasonable amount of business that way. Transferring the ADSL will require installing another phone line with it's associated setup costs and line rental - not an option. Transferring the ADSL to their main line would be the only seperatation possibility & that's got various costs associated so isn't a route they're willing to go down: mainly because everything works except when the fax is active.
you may have this problem if the fax is digital and operates within the DSL frequency.
another issue could be faulty filters - test without any phone OR filters connected (ONLY the fax)
there should be NO FILTERS on the line to the modem!
another solution is a 'home run'. basically a splitter with a filter installed at the nid that has one half going straight to the modem and the other filtered to the telephones and the fax (they wont need filters at that point)
last and most important.. if this is a roll over line such as pbx, the dsl will have these issues and require to be installed on a separate line.
another issue could be faulty filters - test without any phone OR filters connected (ONLY the fax)
there should be NO FILTERS on the line to the modem!
another solution is a 'home run'. basically a splitter with a filter installed at the nid that has one half going straight to the modem and the other filtered to the telephones and the fax (they wont need filters at that point)
last and most important.. if this is a roll over line such as pbx, the dsl will have these issues and require to be installed on a separate line.
EDIT:
^^^^line 2 above -- only a filter on the fax --- no other phones /filters connected
^^^^line 2 above -- only a filter on the fax --- no other phones /filters connected
ASKER
The line is a direct analogue line (no PBX involved). The modem must be on a filter in the UK - the filter itself performs the split that would otherwise occur in the NID in other countries & the modem is plugged into the DSL portion of the filter.
actually, dsl is NO different in the UK than in the states. the device you are using is a SIMPLE splitter with one side filtering the phone signal from the DSL frequency (NOISE).
try removing the splitter/filter totally, also try removing the other devices. ONE by one add them and test fax each time. it could be a filter not performing to specs
try removing the splitter/filter totally, also try removing the other devices. ONE by one add them and test fax each time. it could be a filter not performing to specs
ASKER
As it happens I now know the wiring due to research prior to registering this Q. Note that both my & your initial descriptions show no explicit expertise in this department (regardless of any actual expertise), so clarification is understandable in both directions: you really don't NEED to describe in THAT way - etiquette & all that. :)
The set up was changed yesterday morning to be a single socket with a single filter - that's it's current state. Additionally, the DSL functions as-is without filters and the fax behaves as-is with filter when tested seperately. When combined the faxes work and the DSL doesn't get dropped but is adversely affected (to the point of TCP connections loosing their state & being dropped). The router statistics show no traffic being active during that time.
I'm hoping to get a syslog set up from the router to diagnose a little further, but then the only syslog recipetion available is external to their site currently so I'm not expecting much. :(
The set up was changed yesterday morning to be a single socket with a single filter - that's it's current state. Additionally, the DSL functions as-is without filters and the fax behaves as-is with filter when tested seperately. When combined the faxes work and the DSL doesn't get dropped but is adversely affected (to the point of TCP connections loosing their state & being dropped). The router statistics show no traffic being active during that time.
I'm hoping to get a syslog set up from the router to diagnose a little further, but then the only syslog recipetion available is external to their site currently so I'm not expecting much. :(
well I saw a similar situaltion after my cat had p!ssed on my splitter
so internet would be ok use the phone and internet stops
so internet would be ok use the phone and internet stops
ASKER
Eloquently put IanTh, but there's two filters available & it's the same scenario on each. Besides, there's no cat in sight. :)
excuse my rudeness, (if I reread it I still cant see what I said that was rude- but I am sorry if offended)
From my expertise as a dsl installer technician, digital phone technician, remote monitoring technician, router provisioning technician; I can say your problem does sound familiar, its obviously a noise problem, your filters are suposed to block it. It is entirely possible one, or more, or even ALL of them are bad. This can cause the symptom you are explaining. If this worked at one time, it is probably not a distance issue nor your fax. It could even be the wiring of electricity close to your tel wires. Filters CAN go bad. This is why I suggested the homerun option. I would leave it to the phone company to identify and repair. If they say its not them, insist on a supervisor or lead technician to be dispatched and see what they say.
From my expertise as a dsl installer technician, digital phone technician, remote monitoring technician, router provisioning technician; I can say your problem does sound familiar, its obviously a noise problem, your filters are suposed to block it. It is entirely possible one, or more, or even ALL of them are bad. This can cause the symptom you are explaining. If this worked at one time, it is probably not a distance issue nor your fax. It could even be the wiring of electricity close to your tel wires. Filters CAN go bad. This is why I suggested the homerun option. I would leave it to the phone company to identify and repair. If they say its not them, insist on a supervisor or lead technician to be dispatched and see what they say.
ASKER
Hi Craig,
Hehe, it's not rudeness, just etiquette: using all-caps is the same as shouting in person. :) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt :
"Use mixed case. UPPER CASE LOOKS AS IF YOU'RE SHOUTING.
"Use symbols for emphasis. That *is* what I meant. Use
underscores for underlining. _War and Peace_ is my favorite
book."
The problem has long been an issue. The modem was originally situated near the customer's three-phase electricity input! Naturally, we urged them to move it away from there. Now it has been moved, we've ruled out other devices. The modem sits under a wooden table & the fax machine on top of the table (both at one end of the desk next to the wall socket) with a photocopier at the far end of the desk. So far they are on their third router & *plenty* of DSL filters - some of which have been our own filters which know to be working. :(
Hehe, it's not rudeness, just etiquette: using all-caps is the same as shouting in person. :) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt :
"Use mixed case. UPPER CASE LOOKS AS IF YOU'RE SHOUTING.
"Use symbols for emphasis. That *is* what I meant. Use
underscores for underlining. _War and Peace_ is my favorite
book."
The problem has long been an issue. The modem was originally situated near the customer's three-phase electricity input! Naturally, we urged them to move it away from there. Now it has been moved, we've ruled out other devices. The modem sits under a wooden table & the fax machine on top of the table (both at one end of the desk next to the wall socket) with a photocopier at the far end of the desk. So far they are on their third router & *plenty* of DSL filters - some of which have been our own filters which know to be working. :(
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When there's quite a few posts it's difficult to know the resulting situation. This phrase caught my eye:-
>The router plugs directly into a split-socket filter on the wall
There's been much talk about filters. Has the BT "supplied and fixed" filter been changed? Has the Router been tested by moving it onto a different socket, maybe even the one with the fax machine on it?
(Sorry if I'm repeating something that's been tried already).
>The router plugs directly into a split-socket filter on the wall
There's been much talk about filters. Has the BT "supplied and fixed" filter been changed? Has the Router been tested by moving it onto a different socket, maybe even the one with the fax machine on it?
(Sorry if I'm repeating something that's been tried already).
ASKER
I've not dropped the ball on this one - I've been tied up on other matters. Sorry for not getting back just yet. :(
any luck? whats the status on this?
ASKER
Hi Craig,
Thanks for your patience - we' had a torrid past week: of the four engineers we have, three have been ill and the fourth is an apprentice! We're just picking up the pieces & I plan to contact this particular customer later today.
Thanks for your patience - we' had a torrid past week: of the four engineers we have, three have been ill and the fourth is an apprentice! We're just picking up the pieces & I plan to contact this particular customer later today.
ASKER
Two weeks & the customer has done nothing. Sorry guys, there's an amount of protocol involved with this customer which is dictating the progress - very fast reporting the problem & pointing it out regularly, but give them something to try & it's slow work. :(
:) I love protocols
It's always good to have one's balls in someone else's court
ASKER
Hi guys,
The protocol with this customer has hit a bigger snag than just their time keeping. Craig certainly has been the most use & therefore accepted as the solution. Many thanks for the comments, one and all, fromt he humourous to the repetative. :D
The protocol with this customer has hit a bigger snag than just their time keeping. Craig certainly has been the most use & therefore accepted as the solution. Many thanks for the comments, one and all, fromt he humourous to the repetative. :D
Is it a new style digital fax?
I have had a lot of problems with faxes causing internet connections to drop in the past and the only way i have got round it is to remove the fax from the line altogether.
I am pretty sure the filters will not solve the problem.
:-)