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Migrate GroupWise 6.5 to Exchange 2003

Posted on 2007-03-19
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Hi we have a Novell Netware/GroupWise environment.
Are moving to Microsoft Windows 2003/Exchange 2003 environment, Windwos 2003 is loaded on test Server, Exchange 2003 on it as well.
Now the tough part!   Need to move, migrate GroupWise 6.5 sp5 mailboxes to Exchange
In Exchange we have alraedy created the AD users.....
I have no idea where to start.... on how to move all mailboxes, address lists, contacts  to Exchange

HELP!?!?!?
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Question by:nutekconsultants
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by:Michael S
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by:ShineOn
ID: 18749305
I feel sorry for you, but that's life I guess...  Follow the link to that technet article jay_dale posted.

Note that if it's like previous migration documents from Microsoft, it will want you to set up an Async Gateway, which is "so Microsoft."  Sure, the Async Gateway will function within a GW6.5 environment but it's really not been updated much since the dark ages and will only do so much for you.

I'd suggest, if you're going to do an orderly migration/cutover rather than a brute-force replace, to set up Novell's Gateway for Exchange, which will let you do two-way sync, with the only real issue being sync of meeting requests, IIRC.

It will take a while before you have things leveled out to the point where you might say "well, that's ALMOST as good as we had it."  One caveat up-front - don't expect AD to behave like a mature directory service, or even like an x.500 directory service at all, except in naming of some object types.  Take it as it is, and work within its limitations, and you'll be less frustrated.

I don't know how many times I've bemoaned the shortcomings of AD, wondering at how, after directory services have been tried-and-tested by so many companies before Microsoft started looking at doing one themselves, they decided to reinvent the wheel by forcing their tired domain structure into a hierarchy of sorts, and then behaved as though for some reason it was a superior design...

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by:jabber_wolf
ID: 19245945
Thought it was time to start replying and leaving info to questions.

First Bravo for you making the move.
While groupwise might be a great email system for just that, in an office with now more and more MS servers, a single point of authentication and profile management makes moving to exchange the logical choice. Not to mention  there are oodles of smaller things in outlook that you just can;t do in the groupwise client.

First how many mailboxes are you moving? the above is correct, the Syncing feature with MS or any other 3rd party feature may work but you'll wind up with a headache in the end.
Not to mention if you have archive folders from groupwise ( they make this a pain, seemingly intentional, to make it difficult to switch to anything else). Use "Archive To Go" to get an encapsulated version of these or the migration utility from  www.transend.com to get those items.

Again the answer to your question seriously depends on how many users you have.

1st for test production:
Usually the MSDSS feature from microsoft  and the migration feature from
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/301542  is good to populated the MS directory.
Remember to use the one way from novell NDS to MS Active directory as MS tends to leave junk behind when going both ways.
From this you can create populated email stores for each or a few users, and test logging in, roaming profile, programs that actually integrated with outlook, etc...

2.Once your happy, cut the Syncing and tier you're active directory the way you like it with every user in office groups, staff, whatever.

3.Weekend move
Use a 3rd party program to migrate mailboxes to users in Active Directory. Again you'll have that GroupWise archive problem to deal with, so that will be another job.

4.And finally workstation upgrades. The best idea is to roll out new images for the office and adding the computers to the domain, then booting up with an administrative install that reflects user login names for outlook profiles. This is assuming you've tested the image out to make sure any kinks are gone and also that you've saved IE favorites, desktop, my documents, and anything left over from users.

Fresh, clean AD directory, workstations uniform and added to AD, and complete management.

I still don't understand these GroupWise zealots, that for some reason love the multiple authentication with workstations and network logins. My feeling is that they don't deal with imaging machines, roaming and other things AD directories take for granted!

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ShineOn earned 250 total points
ID: 19247078
What multiple authentication?  GroupWise has had single sign-on longer than Exchange/Outlook.   GroupWise has provided the admin centralized mail client profile management for over a decade.  Exchange/AD only just started to provide that capability a few short years ago, and they still don't have it quite right, IMHO.

Why do you feel that imaging machines, roaming and other things have any bearing on the relative merits of GroupWise vs Ex/Outlook?  Besides exposing OLE API's to other Microsoft Office applications (good or bad depending on your point of view), what can Outlook do that GroupWise client can't?  Oh yeah - expose your users to all of the vulnerabilities of IE and then some, and act as one of the biggest vectors of email-spread viruses and worms.

As to those that must have the bleeding wound of Outlook instead of the secure GroupWise client, GW7 allows native access via the Outlook client.  Not perfect - close, but not perfect... but what non-Microsoft ISV ever *can* get from Microsoft all of the API's needed to make their product really work well with a Microsoft product?

What I don't get is why Exchange zealots tout their "complete management" with AD, as though it's not something that Novell has had with GroupWise and eDirectory (and NDS before it) for years before AD was kludged together to make LanMan domains look like X.500, despite the fact that it takes a few dozen "MMC" consoles to manage AD.  Not to mention that Exchange licensing is usurious, and it takes Exchange Enterprise to scale to the mailbox and mail store size that GroupWise handles easily, without having to pay extra for the privilege...

Once again, marketing wins over common sense.
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by:jabber_wolf
ID: 19247226
Simple because what are workstations ... XP .. do they have the same authentcation?  NO!

Roaming profiles allow machines to be swapped out easily with almost no configuration with user downtime to a minimum.

AND NO .. groupwise did NOT.. never had.. never will have management over Windows desktop!!

And sorry rolling out reg-edits in scripts is NOT Directory Management !

AND SORRY REAL LIFE AND ACTUAL ADMINISTRATION WIN OVER THEORETICAL ZEALOTS.

Now if workstations were NOVELL and NOVELL had a desktop OS.. THEN it would make sense.,,, but sorry the only place Groupwise makes sense is where its only an email system for something like a University where admins DO NOT have to worry about desktops and desktop management, rollouts... etc. AND with THAT.. yes I would prefer groupwise over Exchange !

Talk to the IT people that have to do the rollouts.... they will tell you why and it has nothing to do with marketing. Not to mention GW's archiving sucks and might as well use MS outlook express!?!  Try email retention policies because GW sucks over a enterprise !

And again yes Outlook is the dominant emailing program as is XP over OSX with viruses specifically meant to spread through the most populous program.  Lets see just today, document management system that archives emails as well as documents in the same system. No one supports this for groupwise function. Outlook has out-of-office AND rules, rules are limited in GW.  
Choice of Multiple signatures...
Archiving into 1 file instead of a MESS  that you need a 3rd party program to save for later review.
Proxying others mail boxes rather then viewing everything at once... for got that one.
GW treats address book as a separate program almos which is annoying as hell.
um... printing labels from address book  is a pain.
Some HTML functions decide not to work sometimes ... it kinda decides sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't!
And I can go on because everyday there is something new that bugs me about GW.

The only plus I have found is that GW has a neat little date calculator... that is all.
This is from GW 6.5 and I refuse to go to 7 because they are always playing catchup with outlook which has had these functions for ages. In fact GW 7 is trying its best to look LIKE OUTLOOK !

Mind you this is just in MY industry, who knows what other industries have their issues.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 19249153
Uhm, workstation management has nothing to do with GroupWise OR Exchange.  You're using oddball "excuses" for Exchange being better than GroupWise that have SQUAT to do with Exchange.

And, uh, Novell DOES have a desktop OS - it's called Novell SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop.  Of course you blue-pill-swallowers continue to ignore the phenomenal growth in Linux on both server and desktop that has Microsoft so worried they're dredging up old FUD tactics again...

OSX doesn't have an Outlook client.  Microsoft ended Outlook for Mac with Outlook 2002.  It has "Entourage" now, a crippled almost-Outlook that relies on WebFolders and iCal.

"document management that archives emails as well as documents in the same system."  ???  GroupWise has had DMS built-in for at least a decade...

"Outlook has out-of-office AND rules, rules are limited in GW"  - out-of-office IS a rule.  Rather than a blanket "rule are limited..." it'd be nice to know where you think they're limited as compared to Outlook rules.

Multiple signatures?  Proxying?  Archiving to one file?  What planet are you on...

Address book is a separate system in Outlook/Exchange.  "PAB" anyone?  Calendar is also a separate system in Outlook/Exchange.  Calendar, messages, notes - all part of the same data store in GroupWise.

Using HTML in email is fine for the casual home user, but it's unwise in business email, as HTML mail is one of the bigger virus vectors.  Why do you think Outlook blocks image downloads by default now?  

GroupWise has had functionality that Outlook/Exchange is playing catch-up on.  Like OWA for example.  Finally almost as good as GWWA.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 19249227
When I referred to "policy management" I was talking about centralized control over the GroupWise client/email policies, not workstation policies.  Things like automatic archive and auto delete and such - which only recently was added to Outlook/Exchange...

One more thing GroupWise does that Exchange/Outlook doesn't:  It allows you to log in to GroupWise and get your email/schedule/etc. on any PC no matter who is logged in at the time, without requiring you to have another user profile on the computer.  Even with Roaming Profiles, you'd still have to log out of the NETWORK and re-login to pull down your roaming profile to get your mail/appointments with Outlook/Exchange.

Another thing GroupWise does that Exchange/Outlook doesnt: it lets you have a choice.  Its server agents run on Windows, NetWare or Linux, and has a Linux/Mac/*nix client.

GroupWise was ahead of Exchange in supporting mobile devices and PDA's too.  Another area where Microsoft is playing catch-up.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 19249252
To nutekconsultants, sorry we're going off-topic here.  

The GroupWise Gateway for Exchange only has problems with busy search of appointments in Exchange/Outlook from the GroupWise side, and that's a Microsoft-supplied API shortcoming.  They have to do *something* to prevent clean coexistence...  don't want you just connecting your GroupWise and Exchange systems, and finding it works well enough to just put the whiners that "just gotta have Outlook" on the Exchange system, leaving the rest on GroupWise where they're easier to manage and have a better eXPerience ;)
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by:jabber_wolf
ID: 19249270
First No its the SAME and integrated with Desktop rollouts and configurations and AD.
Again you just showed that you AREN'T part of the IT team that has to deal with that.

Linux enterprise desktop ( ok sides are hurting from laughing now) yes OH SO MANY programs are made for that!! HAHAHAAA

Document management for accounting firms, lawfirms, other industries not personal ones GEESH!
And sorry take a look when managing archive folders compared to 1 simple PST file with outlook. I mean GW is about as organized with that as outlook "express" is.. actually worse !

OSX? I was comparing you "virus free" analogy not supporting Outlook for OSX !

Rules limited - ok, try this, have an auto-away messages that replies to every message sent and not just 1 reply to an email address when activated.

Yes Proxying ( viewing others mailboxes/calendard/address books) WTF planet ARE YOU ON?!
Do you know how groupwise works in an office?!?!?
PAB?! Thats PERSONAL ADDRESS BOOK ,,, and not the same in outlook when using it in ENTERPRISE !! and yes I hate PABs too!

And sorry many businesses have to deal with slight advertising in the emails, and GW tends to loose stuff when forwarding on emails.  Don't believe me- try it !

OWA in GW sucks !! lol  
Exchange for 2003 (thats 4 years going now) is almost like working in outlook on the desktop.

Again all these reasons are why people are leaving GW in mass.

If you are just managing email systems and dont have to worry about desktop, then YES I would recommend GW over Exchange. But that's the only circumstance.
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by:jabber_wolf
ID: 19249351
Auto archive has had that for ages now... not sure what you're talking about.

Yes GW does let you get to your email on anyone's computer, by making the user login every single time they need to get to email?!??!!!!!!!!
And that need rarely if every comes up for users to be in others to get their email and other things.
If that's the case, I'll give them a link to OWA, they have to do the same thing, LOG IN !!
I'll roll that out to everyone's desktop next week in case they need that, but I think users will ask me the same question... when does anyone need to do that!?!

You have a point about outlook only really being made for MS desktops true.

PDAs? Sorry the market is saturated with 2 groups.
Blackberry users and Active Sync (since 2003).
GW PDA connect has been riddled with problems!!


YES we are off topic but would love anyone else to joining in :)
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by:ShineOn
ID: 19252881
> First No its the SAME and integrated with Desktop rollouts and configurations and AD.
Again you just showed that you AREN'T part of the IT team that has to deal with that. <

Wrong.  You obviously have no practical experience outside the Windows little box.  Outlook is not Windows.  Not yet, anyway, until Microsoft figures out a way to tie them together like they tied IE to the OS, such that the antitrust lawyers can be duped again.

You can do desktop rollouts SO many ways it's not funny, and in no way EVER is Exchange Server a required, integral, or key  part of the process.  The ONLY way it has ANY bearing is as *just*another*application* you can install the client for, as part of the image or application set.  

I have supported Microsoft OSes on the desktop since MS-DOS 3.  I have done network-based workstation management since Windows 95, using ZENworks.  ZEN *still* does Windows desktop management better than Microsoft products.  You can have AD and still use ZEN to manage your desktops, better than you could with native AD tools or even with SMS (or whatever they call the latest version.)

Again, has nothing AT ALL to do with the relative merits of GroupWise vs Outlook/Exchange.

>Linux enterprise desktop ( ok sides are hurting from laughing now) yes OH SO MANY programs are made for that!! HAHAHAAA<

Again, obviously limited in your scope.  Linux has thousands of applications available to it, and the list is growing.

>Document management for accounting firms, lawfirms, other industries not personal ones GEESH!<

Geesh yourself.  First off, the DMS in GroupWise is not a "personal" DMS.  It's enterprise-class.  For many companies, it's a good fit.  For law firms, the biggest one is Worldox, which, IIRC, doesn't really have to integrate or connect with a mail client.  Or are you saying that you can add your Exchange inbox to a DMS and have enterprise-wide check-in, check-out, version control and metadata search capabilities on your email?  Naaah, that'd be silly.  Of course, Microsoft likes to do silly things that nobody needs and then tries to convince us we do...  More likely there's some kind of way to archive directly to a DMS.

Second, your original statement implied that Outlook had a built-in, unified DMS.  I guess you were actually talking about third-party DMS.  I suppose it's possible that someone in the DMS arena has added email archival and retention hooks into Outlook or Exchange, since Sarb-Ox and other regulations have changed the landscape for retention and retrieval in recent years, and figured it'd be a good selling point to add that functionality.  If you have a DMS that complies with government regulations like Sarb-Ox and HIPAA, then it makes sense, but if your DMS isn't archiving to permanent media like WORM or DVD, you're better off using an email archival tool.  These do exist for GroupWise, as well as Ex and Notes and others.  To pick a 3rd party tool and use that as a benefit to using Outlook is silly, though, unless you have a business NEED to use that 3rd party tool and there are no other options.

>And sorry take a look when managing archive folders compared to 1 simple PST file with outlook. I mean GW is about as organized with that as outlook "express" is.. actually worse !<

"1 simple PST file..."  ha!  You can have as many PST files as you decide to make.  You can create them in "current" Outlook format or in Outlook 97 format.  You can encrypt them with a password chosen by the user - that's smart, have archives encrypted so they can't be retrieved easily if you terminate the user...  Further, Microsoft doesn't support network-drive storage of PST files, making things "interesting" for backup/restore and retention, requiring the admin to either back up local workstations somehow, or figure out a not-supported-by-Microsoft method of syncing the data back to a server, in a more efficient way than what's provided by briefcase / offline files.  

Sure, if you don't place any controls on your archive process, it can be a mess with GroupWise too, but that's true for Outlook/Ex and Notes and any other email system that might have archiving of mail items.  The difference with GroupWise, way before "central control" of Exchange was conceived, is that you can specify a network location for the GroupWise archives within the archive policy.  It doesn't have to be a mess if it's managed properly, just like any other system.  I guess you never figured out how to manage it properly.

To compare GW to OE is just silly on the face of it.  No further comment necessary.

>OSX? I was comparing you "virus free" analogy not supporting Outlook for OSX !<

I suppose.  Doesn't read that way, but I see now that you were trying to say that OSX is less virus-prone than XP because there are more XP installs in the world at large.  Hahahahaha....  Good one.  You 'softies like to claim that it's all because of being a big target, and it has nothing to do with the inherent security flaws in Microsoft systems in general.  That has been disproven over and again, so that's all I'll say on that...

>Rules limited - ok, try this, have an auto-away messages that replies to every message sent and not just 1 reply to an email address when activated.<

?  

That's a simple rule.  Why do you think GroupWise can't do it?  Maybe you never learned how to use GroupWise rules.
One thing that IS true is that when GroupWise sends a rules-based reply, it keeps track of who it sent it to, and only sends ONE reply TO THAT USER, FOR THAT RULE.  It doesn't keep sending "I'm not here today" responses to the same person if they keep sending emails after the first rule-based response.  Why would that be desireable?  It's a feature that Outlook apparently doesn't have, that you're trying to make out as a shortcoming in GroupWise.  Typical.  Why would you want to SPAM your correspondents with "I'm away today" replies when they already know from the first "I'm away today" reply?
Can you set Outlook to only reply once to a sender even if they send 10 emails a day while your "away rule" is in effect?

>Yes Proxying ( viewing others mailboxes/calendard/address books) WTF planet ARE YOU ON?!
Do you know how groupwise works in an office?!?!?<

Yes, I do, but apparently you don't.  Proxying has been a feature of GroupWise for over a decade.

As to the address book in "enterprise" - the GAL is still a separate entity from the message store.  Just as the GW System Address Book is a separate entity from the GroupWise message store.  The Outlook address lists aren't much different than the GroupWise address books.  It can include all sorts of things - PAB, contacts, etc - besides the GAL.  True, the GW address book was based on the WordPerfect address book, and has had some legacy issues, but the Outlook address book has its problems too.

>And sorry many businesses have to deal with slight advertising in the emails, and GW tends to loose stuff when forwarding on emails.  Don't believe me- try it !<

First, "loose" is the opposite of "tight."  I think you mean "lose" as in the opposite of "find" or "obtain."

Second, I don't know what "slight advertising" and forwarding emails have to do with each other.  As to GW tending to "loose" stuff when forwarding, that depends on what you're looking to do.  If you want it to behave like Outlook and send things "ugly," then true, a forward tends to drop headers of the forwarded email.  It's a feature called "flat forwarding" and is intended so that a forwarding rule would drop the headers of the empty forwarder message and send the forwarded message from/to using the original message header.  It's intended to be used for when you want to forward your mail to an external account and not see a bunch of emails from yourself but rather emails from the sender.

Can Outlook/Ex do that?

>OWA in GW sucks !! lol  
Exchange for 2003 (thats 4 years going now) is almost like working in outlook on the desktop.<

What GWWA (OWA is Outlook Web Access..) version did you use?  The GWWA in GW5.5 sucked, but not as bad as the OWA in Exchange 5.5.

GWWA from 6.0 on was much closer to the GW desktop look-and-feel, kind of like OWA in Ex 2003 is closer to the Outlook desktop - years before Ex 2003.  GWWA in GW7 even lets you have your proxy access.  Do you get to see the shared mailboxes you've attached to your Outlook in OWA?

OWA for Ex 2003 looks a lot like GWWA 6... hehe...

>Auto archive has had that for ages now... not sure what you're talking about.<

Not "for ages."  Just since GPO support was added, to give central administrative control over auto-archive.  And it's still not managed as easily as it has been in GroupWise - for ages.

>Yes GW does let you get to your email on anyone's computer, by making the user login every single time they need to get to email?!??!!!!!!!!<

Wrong.  It can be done on an as-needed basis, or on a case-by-case basis, or simply by adding a shortcut with the command-line parameters that indicate the user needs to log in.

>And that need rarely if every comes up for users to be in others to get their email and other things.<
Not true for a shared workstation or kiosk.  Microsoft's way forces you to log in as the new user, to pull in that profile, or to use OWA.

>If that's the case, I'll give them a link to OWA, they have to do the same thing, LOG IN !!<  
OWA, although much improved, still does not have all the features of the full Outlook client.

>I'll roll that out to everyone's desktop next week in case they need that, but I think users will ask me the same question... when does anyone need to do that!?!<
Why would you roll anything out to all the users if they don't need it?  Oh, yeah, Microsoft LIKES for their users to have a bunch of stuff they don't need.  That way, if they start using it, then they'll think they DO need it and create more vendor lock-in.

>PDAs? Sorry the market is saturated with 2 groups.
Blackberry users and Active Sync (since 2003).<

You forgot Goodlink.  They work with both Ex and GroupWise, as an intermediary between the email system and smartphones.  Not limited to those that work with PocketPC/Active Sync either.

ActiveSync is Microsoft's answer to Palm HotSync Manager.  It's for the Pocket PC OS and its successors...

BlackBerry supports Exchange, GroupWise and Notes, all with their own server product, not "natively."

>GW PDA connect has been riddled with problems!!<
Another one of your ad-hominem blanket statements.  That's like me saying "Outlook has been riddled with problems!!"  While my statement is true, it adds nothing to the conversation.  

I'm not talking about PDA Connect (which also was ahead of the game) so much as the GroupWise Wireless Access support, which has been available since GW5.5EP.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 19253008
One more thing.  As to giving everyone a link to OWA as a workaround to MS tying the Outlook account to the active user profile:

If you have Integrated Windows Authentication enabled, you won't get a login dialog if the computer is in the domain and the user is authenticated to the domain.  You'll go directly to the logged-in user's mailbox.

So, if you want to do the multiple-user-workstation workaround by using OWA, you have to make sure that authentication method is not enabled.
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by:jabber_wolf
ID: 19255462
"You forgot Goodlink.  They work with both Ex and GroupWise, as an intermediary between the email system and smartphones.  Not limited to those that work with PocketPC/Active Sync either."
-- GREAT have them pay outragouesly more for something that comes standard with Exchange.

"ActiveSync is Microsoft's answer to Palm HotSync Manager.  It's for the Pocket PC OS and its successors..."
Figures someone still running groupwise would probably have palm OS! lol

"Wrong.  It can be done on an as-needed basis, or on a case-by-case basis, or simply by adding a shortcut with the command-line parameters that indicate the user needs to log in."
Again same with with an OWA. Why would you need to have people log in at their own station every single time, again you would have to have AN ADDITIONAL ICON with the added switches.

The below we all know is your excuse for GW not forwaring correctly and dropping code. And sorry legally trying to drop information is not what most people want for verification and functionality.

"Second, I don't know what "slight advertising" and forwarding emails have to do with each other.  As to GW tending to "loose" stuff when forwarding, that depends on what you're looking to do.  If you want it to behave like Outlook and send things "ugly," then true, a forward tends to drop headers of the forwarded email.  It's a feature called "flat forwarding" and is intended so that a forwarding rule would drop the headers of the empty forwarder message and send the forwarded message from/to using the original message header.  It's intended to be used for when you want to forward your mail to an external account and not see a bunch of emails from yourself but rather emails from the sender."

Exchanges 2003 versus GW's web access... um sorry users are telling me GW sucks, I'm just relaying.


Now this below I know because Ive used it and the same complaint follows. proxying from one persons to another makes it a pain in the ass for users to simply drag and drop stuff from anothers folders to their own.-- its CALLED A DESIGN FLAW !!
I will give GW one credit though, their LDAP carries more info then MS's.
"As to the address book in "enterprise" - the GAL is still a separate entity from the message store.  Just as the GW System Address Book is a separate entity from the GroupWise message store.  The Outlook address lists aren't much different than the GroupWise address books.  It can include all sorts of things - PAB, contacts, etc - besides the GAL.  True, the GW address book was based on the WordPerfect address book, and has had some legacy issues, but the Outlook address book has its problems too."


YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF.. YES IT CAN.. OH BUT NO IT CANT?!?!? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
Outlook can do EITHER,, GW cant, like I said,,, try it !--->
That's a simple rule.  Why do you think GroupWise can't do it?  Maybe you never learned how to use GroupWise rules.
One thing that IS true is that when GroupWise sends a rules-based reply, it keeps track of who it sent it to, and only sends ONE reply TO THAT USER, FOR THAT RULE.  It doesn't keep sending "I'm not here today" responses to the same person if they keep sending emails after the first rule-based response.  Why would that be desireable?  It's a feature that Outlook apparently doesn't have, that you're trying to make out as a shortcoming in GroupWise.  Typical.  Why would you want to SPAM your correspondents with "I'm away today" replies when they already know from the first "I'm away today" reply?
Can you set Outlook to only reply once to a sender even if they send 10 emails a day while your "away rule" is in effect?

Well then I guess I should ignore a VIRUS ALERT FOR GW I got 2 weeks ago from Novell!!?!?
"I suppose.  Doesn't read that way, but I see now that you were trying to say that OSX is less virus-prone than XP because there are more XP installs in the world at large.  Hahahahaha....  Good one.  You 'softies like to claim that it's all because of being a big target, and it has nothing to do with the inherent security flaws in Microsoft systems in general.  That has been disproven over and again, so that's all I'll say on that..."

Name something for business that's actually used?!
"Again, obviously limited in your scope.  Linux has thousands of applications available to it, and the list is growing."

Worldox?? lol again for SMALL business use !!!!

And yes OUTLOOK is tied into most MS programs and AD. Try this with AD, lock down signatures or views to get rid of shortcut bars. I think now you can even have cached copies for outlook locked to the computer and not just the user, so that cached request doesnt follow the user to Citrix/terminal services.

I ADMIT, MS tries to purposely tie in everything to show that it can with its products... being a bit predatory in its practices... but it IS TIED TO THE AD IN THE ABILITY TO MODIFY AND CONTROL USERS on the network.


COMPARING GW ARCHIVING to MS OUTLOOK EXPRESSES FILE SAVING IS VERY VERY COMPARABLE
THAT's why most IT ADMINS hate it! I know I DO !  I instructed users NEVER to archive and to write a rule instead to save older items to a folder instead.  This way someone could SOMEWHAT manage email retention policies!

AND AGAIN, yes 3rd party apps.... most made for outlook few for GW !



!
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by:jabber_wolf
ID: 19255501
And your absolutely right I'll have to do a :
http://Server_name/exchange/LogonFrm.asp?isnewwindow=0&mailbox=name and modify it so it purposely messes up on authentication and asks for a login.

But again, I could do a rollout for a function YOU TOUT as useful to have but honestly isn't !
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by:ShineOn
ID: 19255886
1)  When did Exchange natively provide an email service to smart phones of virtually all makes and models?  Ex 2007, from what I can tell.  This Q is about Ex 2003.

We have Exchange 2003 at work, and use Goodlink to provide email access to smart phones because EX doesn't do it all natively in 2003, and not all phones or cellular providers support the Ex 2003 push.

2)  Laugh out loud all you want, you're still wrong.  Palm Hotsync is to Palm OS devices as ActiveSync is to Pocket PC/Windows CE/Windows Mobile devices.  They did take it to another level and added it to Ex for mobile device mail sync, granted.  It didn't become a nearly all-encompassing mobile device access product with push technology for nearly any mobile device until Ex 2007.  This Q is for Ex 2003.  I never said that Palm Hotsync had anything to do with GroupWise and its mobile support.

3)  I will attempt once more to make you understand that it is not necessary to force users to log in every time they access GroupWise.  It's *possible* to do so, if you are subject to regulatory requirements for security or if you're just paranoid, but it's not necessary.  If that's how you set it up, it was your error.  Stop trying to make your error out to be a flaw in GroupWise that does not exist.

4) So you're saying you WANT GroupWise rules to SPAM your correspondents with "I'm out today" auto-replies for every message they send you?  And that would be a good thing?  Why?

I wasn't contradicting myself based on my interpretation of your claim.  The only way it would be contradictory is if what you were trying to say was in reference to once per sender, rather than what it reads like.  It looks to me like you were saying that an away rule in GroupWise would only send out one message at the time you activate it.  You didn't say the problem as you see it is that it would only respond once to each sender for the duration of the rule.

5)  Flat forwarding can be turned off.  It's a feature.  Beyond the ability to flat-forward messages, I'm not aware of any issues with how GroupWise forwards messages, perceived or otherwise.  I don't know what you're talking about with your convoluted, confused statements.  Can you point at anything specific as regards forwarding in GroupWise that you feel has problems, rather than some non-specific claim of losing information and some obscure reference about legally trying to drop information?  And what version and SP of GroupWise this problem exists in, so I can point you to the TID showing it's fixed?
Of course, as with other things, you may simply be unaware of the effects of various settings within a GroupWise system, and simply have it set up wrong, resulting in something not forwarding properly...

6)  Wow, a security vulnerability was found in GroupWise!  That makes a grand total of 5 in the past two years!
Tell me, how many have there been found and patched in Outlook/Exchange, just *this* year?  According to the CERT database, at least 5 so far... and we're only in June.  The most recently-dated note in the CERT database, VU#343145, is titled "Microsoft Exchange Server fails to properly decode MIME messages."  It has to do with Ex not interpreting base64 MIME properly, allowing arbitrary code execution on the server. "The attacker could then install programs; view, change, or delete data; or create new accounts with full user rights."  Microsoft patched it in MS07-026.
If I were you, I wouldn't go getting smug about a (rare) security vulnerability in GroupWise when there are SO MANY in Exchange/Outlook/OWA, so OFTEN.

7)  OpenOffice.org/StarOffice.  Evolution.  MySQL.  PostgreSQL.  Apache.  Perl.  PHP.  Tomcat.  Oracle. DB/2.  Anything written to .NET 1.1 and almost everything written to .NET 2.0.  JBoss.  WebSphere.  QAD EBII ERP/MRP system.  Progress.  Samba/CIFS.  Kerberos. BIND DNS.
Do you need a longer list?

8)  I guess 200-plus-attorney law firms are small businesses.  You're the one that mentioned law firms...  
Big companies are more likely to use Enterprise Content Management software (which is like your average DMS on steroids.)  Companies that work with engineering documents are more likely to use a PDM system than and ECMS or DMS.
Like I said, GW DMS works fine for some companies.  Some need more than what GW DMS does.  I'm not saying it's perfect or is a be-all-end-all ECMS, and again, I was under the impression you were saying that Outlook has a DMS built in now, which it doesn't, so let's let that dead horse rest instead of beating it some more.

9)  AD is a nice try, and it is useful for some things, but AD is needed for Exchange.  Exchange isn't needed for AD.  You can run GroupWise on a Windows 2003R2 server in an AD environment and still have all of those nifty features you keep bringing up that have absolutely nothing to do with the relative merits of GroupWise vs Exchange/Outlook.

10) You are the only person I know of that can't figure out how to use centralized GroupWise auto-archive/auto-delete features, and because of that chose to write a kludge workaround rule.

11) You don't have to do a smart-ass kludge to force OWA to ask for a login.  All you have to do is turn off Integrated Windows Authentication.  Then OWA will always ask for a login.  Just like GroupWise would if you turned off eDirectory Authentication.  
The only reason you don't think it's useful to be able to get your email from a shared computer, securely, without logging out of the stinkin' network and logging in as another user, is because Microsoft chose to remove that functionality from Outlook and you're not used to having that option any more.  I know a lot of people that were kinda, well, pissed off that they couldn't do that any more, once they were upgraded from Office 97 to Office XP.  Just like anything you don't have - if you don't know that you don't have it, you don't miss it.  A lot of time has passed since M$ tied the Outlook account to the user profile in Windows, enough so most users either don't remember, or never knew it used to be possible.
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by:ShineOn
ID: 19408628
jabber_wolf, here's the fix for your "flaw" in GroupWise rules.  It's not a flaw, it's an option.  I just didn't dig deep enough.

I came across this TID while looking for something else and just had to pass it on.

http://support.novell.com/docs/Tids/Solutions/10081568.html

It's a simple setting.  It's not managed on the client side, it's a centrally-managed client rule: "allow reply rules to loop."


One more straw man bites the dust.

 
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by:Michael S
ID: 19410283
ShineOn wins.
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by:jabber_wolf
ID: 19415749
LOL actually tried that, and did not work - that's why I mentioned it.
Keep that straw, all you have is a straw man argument.

And yes it is a flaw, they had before, they removed, you were able to undo it, and then not at all.

They can continue to give advice but that doesnt meant it works, people get fed up and move on without correction... and move on to better things such as EXCHANGE and OUTLOOK :P

Sorry no real winners but only losers that stay in their bubble complaining of changes around them.
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by:Michael S
ID: 19416006
ShineOn still wins.
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