Can't Boot from CD in Virtual PC 2007

GOAL IS TO INSTALL XP PRO INTO VIRTUAL PC 2007 ON A VISTA BUSINESS WORKING PC.

(1) One VMware expert from Microsoft (in his blog) says: Just put the CD in and just-installed Virtual PC boots from it so you can install XP into the Virtual Machine. NO Worries.
Link is http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2006/10/11/virtual-pc-2007-beta-free-and-available-now.aspx . Scroll down to Item 2.

BUTTT the other ZDnet expert at  http://blogs.zdnet.com/Berlind/?p=368 (Scroll down about 1/3 down) says, NO !!!,

"Another problem I encountered had to do with getting my first virtual machine to see the bootable media that I had loaded into the host systems CD drive. For some reason, the VM insisted on endlessly probing the local area network for a boot image instead. It wasn't until I changed a CD/DVD-drive setting and turned off the network interface (so there was no network to search) that the VM finally booted from the CD."

The problem is I have no idea what his solution means. WHERE ARE THE CHANGES MADE ?? In the BIOS OR the Virtual PC settings. Does "turn off the network interface? mean go to Control Panel> Network Connections and disable every network connection? WHAT **EXACTLY** DO THOSE INSTRUCTIONS MEAN ??? Does "changed a CD/DVD-drive setting " mean go to the bios and if the PC has a two optical drives, make the drive with the CD the first device to boot from ? DO YOU SEE THOSE INSTRUCTIONS COULD MEAN MANY MANY THINGS.

QUESTION TO EE VMWARE EXPERT: Please provide step-by-step instructions as to how to do what is described above so I can boot from the XP install CD WITHIN just-installed VIRTUAL PC 2007. OR DO YOU THINK LIKE THE MS BLOGGER THAT IT JUST WORKS WITH NO CHANGES NEEDED??

(2) Also the ZDnet expert says (beneath his step by step screen shots of the install) that the XP install (after boot from CD) goes exactly like on a regular PC. THE HECK IT DOES !!! About a quarter of the way into the XP install after the long copy with progress bar, THE INSTALL PROCEDURE REBOOTS THE PC AND THEN THE INSTALL CONINUES WITH NO USER INTERACTION (except when it says "press any key to boot from CD' the user does NOT press a key")

UNFORTUNATELY A REBOOT IN THIS CASE TAKES US TO, YOU GOT IT, VISTA, NOT THE VIRTUAL PC. SO, NO, THE INSTALL IS NOT GOING TO CONTINUE.

QUESTION 2: Which of the following choices solves this problem:
- The reboot takes you back into Virtual PC and the install coninues
- The reboot takes you to Vista and you restart the Virtual PC and the install continues
- It is not really a reboot in this case. It exits the Virtual PC and the user must then restart the Virtual PC (simulating a reboot) and the install continues.
- Other than the above.

Please reply with which of the 4 choices is correct and if the last one, what is the procedure.

Regards-Miie
mgross333Asked:
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Brian PiercePhotographerCommented:
All you have to do in Virtual PC is to click on the CD option on the virtual PC menu bar and select [Use Drive X:] (where x: the the real cd drive, then click ACTION, RESTART. The virtual PC will restart and by default is set to boot from the CD/DVD first. Press a key to boot from the CD/DVD when prompted.
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mgross333Author Commented:
KCTS and other EE VMware experts,

Thanks for your answer to my first question. That addresses the CD settings issue BUT DOES NOT address the booting from network issue. The author of the quote is the Executive Editor of ZDnet. I think he knows something about this !! Not to say that you do not know about VMWARE. The point is it appears that on some PCs the Virtual PC tries to boot from the network and I do not see that your answer addresses that case. PLEASE COMMENT.

Also WHAT is the answer to my 2nd Question (Question (2) above)?

Mike

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Brian PiercePhotographerCommented:
The virtual PC will only attempt to boot from the network if no other OS can be found. The Virtual PC has a BIOS just like a real machine, and just like a real machine you can get into it and chnage things by pressing DELETE as the VPC starts.

As the OS installs it will reboot the virual PC - the real (host) machine should not re-boot.
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
"... author of the quote is the Executive Editor of ZDnet. I think he knows something about this !! " ==> Don't be misled by a title.   These guys are just journalists ... yes, they know a bit about technology, but they make a LOT of incorrect statements !!

A virtualized PC in Virtual PC 2007 is exactly that => a VIRTUAL PC.   It works exactly like a PC with an Intel 440BX chipset, S3 Trio video card, Intel/DEC 21140 network card, and a Soundblaster 16 ISA PNP sound card.   XP's installation CD "knows" about all of these hardware devices ... so the install is VERY simple.

... As KCTS noted, you simply select the CD drive ["User physical drive x:"];  then reset the Virtual PC [You do NOT really press Ctrl-Atl-Del => you select "Action - Ctrl-Alt-Del from the Virtual PC's menu bar]   I presume you know how to get the cursor's focus back to the "real" PC ... by pressing the right Alt key [If the cursor's in the virtual PC, you'll need to do this to be able to select the varioius virtual PC options from the Action or CD menus].

Once you've rebooted with the XP install CD (don't forget to "click" in the virtual PC so when you "Press any key to boot from CD" the keystroke is actually passed to the virtualized PC) and started the XP installation, it will work EXACTLY like a normal XP install.   Yes, it will reboot ... but remember this is the VIRTUAL PC that's rebooting => and it IS fully automatic when it needs to do the reboot ... do NOT press any keys or otherwise interact at that point.    You have obviously rebooted your REAL PC ... NOT what you want to do.   Your Question #2 has NOTHING to do with the actions within the virtual PC => the only way you're getting to Vista is to reboot the REAL computer.  Do NOT do this !!

... Remember ... you NEVER use Ctrl-Alt-Del within a virtual PC => you have to use the "Action" menu if you want to "press" that combination.   But you never have to do that during an XP installation.
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Brian PiercePhotographerCommented:
Just to add to garycase - you can use [Alt Gr]+[Del] to send [Ctrl]+[Alt]+[Del] to the virtual pc, as he says DONT press [Ctrl]+[Alt]+[Del]
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
... Haven't seen "[Alt Gr]" used in a while :-)    

Just in case Mike's not familiar with it, it's simply the right Alt (the Alt key to the right of the spacebar).    The original IBM keyboards (in the 80's) labeled this key Alt-Graph (thus the Alt-Gr abbreviation).
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mgross333Author Commented:
Posts above are helpful but...
In order of importance
(1) There is a 2nd completely identical-in-every way (except one, see below) PC on local net that is working fine with all done already so I will copy vmc,vhd, and vsc files from it (Vista File sharing) to local PC, start Virt PC and choose 3rd option (ie NEW> Add an existing virtual PC) to start from existing vmc file. I ASSUME THAT THE VHD FILE AND VSC files (saved state) MUST BE IN THE SAME FOLDER AS I am ONLY ASKED TO BROWSE TO THE VMC FILE. It appears to not ask for location of VHD or VSC files so there is a loose end here as they are needed too.

PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS. IF I BROWSE TO VMC FILE AND THE OTHER TWO ARE IN THE SAME FOLDER IS THAT SUFFICIENT ??

Note: This not only saves time to install XP but also all customization after that, accounts icons on desktop, IT'S ALL DONE ALREADY and the other PC is exactly the same model.

I said there was an exception. The res within virtual PC is too low to show the remote x-rays (the only app used here, app has no Vista version and PC HW will not support XP Native install). So while still in Vista, the res must be set higher every time the PC is rebooted (fortunately this happens ONLY after power failures, a rare occurence). Yet the other PC did not have that res problem (before some of its system files got corrupt and yes, I tried Vista Startup repair which fixed NOTHING !!!) I fear that copying the vhd file from the working PC will transfer the res problem to a PC that did not have that problem.

ANY COMMENTS ON THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH?

If this fails (and it will take time to copy the 12 GB VHD file over the local wired net (I hope at 100 MBs speeds but it could be 10 mbs = 15 minutes of more for copy), then I need to install XP into the Virtual PC from CD and need the advice in your posts. Regarding this I have two comments

(1) Garycase, regarding
> I presume you know how to get the cursor's focus back to the "real" PC ... by pressing the right Alt key [If the cursor's in the virtual PC, you'll need to do this to be able to select the varioius virtual PC options from the Action or CD menus].

Please confirm that there is a typo above. ie you meant to say that [If the cursor's IS ***OUTSIDE*** the virtual PC, you'll need to do this (Press Right Alt key). Otherwise this makes no sense. Why refocus when we are already there?? RIGHT OR WRONG?

(2) You are missing the point on booting from network problem. The poster actually experienced it, his title is irrelevant. He had Vista installed already so THERE WAS AN OS INSTALLED. You two are claiming that this is impossible to happen BUT IT DID HAPPEN.

For the moment, I just hope it does not happen to me. From your posts I will assume that it is unusual. Maybe I could press Delete as VPC starts go into its BIOS and make sure network boot is diabled???

Regards,
   Mike
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Brian PiercePhotographerCommented:
If you install the Virtual PC Tools (Action->Install Virtual PC Tools) from the menu once you have an OS in the VPC you can move the mouse freely from the real to host PC and back without having to use [Alt Gr] to keep moving the focus. (BTW may new Dell 620 has the right alt labelled [Alt-Gr]

You can create another VPC by copying the VMC and VHD files, However, be aware that the two guest operating systems will have the same Computer name and Same SID - You can easily chnage the somputer name. The duplicate SID is not a problem unless you are planning to join them to a domain - in which case use NewSid (google for  it) to re-create the SIDs.

If the VPC is attempting to boot from the network then either the VPC bios boot settings need sorting, or their is no valid OS on the VPC.

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mgross333Author Commented:
KCTS,

You don't understand. All of my post relates to a state where there is no OS on VPC. Hence I copy Vhd, vmc  etc files and browse to them TO INSTALL THE ONLY OS I NEED AND I AM DONE. This is not done later, it is THE ONLY THING DONE. Also regarding
> If you install the Virtual PC Tools (Action->Install Virtual PC Tools) from the menu once you have an OS

Again I am interested in the assumed typo in garycase's post because I am only interested in this issue WHEN I HAVE NO OS INSTALLED (and need to click things in the VPC window like Action and Settings.) So there is no OPS so I can NOT install Virtual PC tools. So that typo or not matters to me.

And again regarding
> If the VPC is attempting to boot from the network then .....or their is no valid OS on the VPC.

At the ONLY point of interest here AGAIN there is no OS at all on the VPC, I am trying to boot from the CD to install an OS and the zdnet guy claims that in that situation it refused to boot from the CD and instead booted from the network. And I find it hard to imagine that the default BIOS for the VPC has Network before CD as a boot device so this remains a mystery.

Again the boot from CD and focus mouse clicks anbd keyboard types on VPC issues will not exist if I can get the VPC to just take the vmc and vhd files from the other already working and installed PC and create the Virtual Machine from those files. But if that fails, than your and garycase's posts there become relevant.

Mike

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mgross333Author Commented:
KCTS,

You don't understand. All of my post relates to a state where there is no OS on VPC. Hence I copy Vhd, vmc  etc files and browse to them TO INSTALL THE ONLY OS I NEED AND I AM DONE. This is not done later after an initial OS is installed from CD, it is THE ONLY THING DONE. Also regarding
> If you install the Virtual PC Tools (Action->Install Virtual PC Tools) from the menu once you have an OS

Again I am interested in the assumed typo in garycase's post because I am only interested in this issue WHEN I HAVE NO OS INSTALLED (and need to click things in the VPC window like Action and Settings.) So there is no OS so I can NOT install Virtual PC tools. So that typo or not matters to me.

And again regarding
> If the VPC is attempting to boot from the network then .....or their is no valid OS on the VPC.

At the ONLY point of interest here AGAIN there is no OS at all on the VPC, I am trying to boot from the CD to install an OS and the zdnet guy claims that in that situation it refused to boot from the CD and instead booted from the network. So of course there **IS** no OS installed at that point. And I find it hard to imagine that the default BIOS for the VPC has Network before CD as a boot device so this remains a mystery.

Again the boot from CD and focus mouse clicks and keyboard types on VPC issues will not exist if I can get the VPC to just take the vmc and vhd files from the other already working and installed PC and create the Virtual Machine from those files. But if that fails, than your and garycase's posts here become relevant.

Mike

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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
Not a typo => if the focus is IN the vitual PC window (so you can, for example "Press any key to boot from CD" and you want to cause one of the actions on the virtual PC menu [Action, Edit, CD, Floppy, Help] then you need to get the focus back to the "real" PC ==> the right Alt key allows you to do that.

... Clearly once an OS is installed, all you have to do is install VM Additions and that's no longer needed (the cursor will then move freely between the virtual and "real" PC.

Yes, if you simply copy the vmc and vhd files to the same directory, then add an "existing" virtual PC, it will work fine.   As KCTS noted, however, there will be problems if this needs to be on a domain ... as it will have the same SID as the other copy.   You can, however, simply change the SID with the SysInternals tool [http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897418.aspx ].

By the way, the fact that "... the other PC is exactly the same model." is irrelevant => ALL PC's within Virtual PC are the exact same model, regardless of what the host PC's configuration is.

It's not clear what your resolution issue is from your description.   The S3 Trio in a virtual PC has a maximum resolution of 1600 x 1200 => the virtual PC can be set to this resolution; and as long as the native system's resolution is >= to this, the entire virtual PC's display will still be visible (otherwise the window will be larger than the physical display).   If you set a resolution on the "real" PC of 1600 x 1200 or larger, then you can simply set the virtualized PC to 1600 x 1200.   Note that VMWare supports higher resolutions than this ... so you could always install XP in a VMWare machine instead of Virtual PC if you need greater resolution.  [It's equally easy to install]

As for your comment r.e. the "issue" the ZDNet article mentioned ["... He had Vista installed already so THERE WAS AN OS INSTALLED ..."] ==> No!!  He did not.   The "problem" he mentioned ["... Another problem I encountered had to do with getting my first virtual machine to see the bootable media that I had loaded into the host systems CD drive. For some reason, the VM insisted on endlessly probing the local area network for a boot image instead. It wasn't until I changed a CD/DVD-drive setting and turned off the network interface (so there was no network to search) that the VM finally booted from the CD."]  was trying to get his virtual machine to see his bootable media.   As he noted, he had to change a "CD/DVD-drive setting" --> undoubtedly this was simply setting the CD to "Use Physical Drive x:" as I noted earlier that you have to do.   It was NOT necessary to "turn off the network interface" => I'm sure he did that; but it simply wasn't necessary.   His "real" machine (the host) was running Vista -- but he was attempting to boot to a bootable CD to install an OS in his "first virtual machine" :-)    This was simply a novice error with Virtual PC ... nothing more.

If you want to install XP rather than copy an existing virtual machine, it's just as easy as I noted before.   When you first "Start" an empty Virtual PC, it is NORMAL for it so simply try and boot from the network ... and to keep doing this.   All you have to do is go to the "CD" setting and set it to "Use Physical Drive x:" (x: being your drive's assigned letter); and then go to "Action" and do a Ctrl+Alt+Del to reboot the virtual machine.   This will then boot to the XP CD ==> you then just "click" in the virtual PC window (to force focus there) and hit a key during the "Press any key to boot from CD" message ... the XP will then install with no issues.   Not even any drivers to install (since XP "knows" about all of the virtualized hardware components).

Note:   It's basically just as easy to install XP in VMWare Server ... in case you need to do that for the higher graphics resolution.




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mgross333Author Commented:
I just copied the Vhd and Vmc files and used them to add a virtual PC and it worked fine saving me a lot of time as there are things there beyond installing XP that were already set up.

However, regarding garycase's comment (and KCTS's similar comment)
> As KCTS noted, however, there will be problems if this needs to be on a domain ... as it will have the same SID as the other copy.

We have 17 wired PCs connected to switches and sub-switches and all the switches are connected to ONE router which is connected to Comcast (DHCP ISP) and all the TCP/IP properties are set to auto ip, auto dns. On one large LAN.

I believe this means there is NO DOMAIN so the same SID does not matter. PLEASE REPLY ON THIS. I do not know what a DOMAIN (OR SID) is in this context but my impression (circumstantial evidence) that it does not apply to this situation,

AND IF IT DOES APPLY TO THIS SITUATION, WHAT ARE THE BAD IMPLICATIONS. I.E WHAT WILL NOT WORK IF THE TWO VPCs HAVE THE SAME SID?

Regards,
  Mike
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mgross333Author Commented:
Also in case Domain means there are servers here that are part of "company.com" or some URL, NO, that is not going on in this LAN. They are all client PCs here, no servers that implement a URL.

Mike
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
If you had a domain, you'd know it :-)
... nothing to worry about.

You can always check how you're connected by simply right-clicking on My Computer; selecting Properties; clicking on the Computer Name tab; and clicking on Change.   This will show you if you're connected to a Workgroup or a Domain.
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mgross333Author Commented:
Garycase and KCTS

NOTE NEW Virtual PC 2007 QUESTION (3) below.

(1) Regarding
>You can always check how you're connected by simply right-clicking on My Computer; selecting >Properties; clicking on the Computer Name tab; and clicking on Change.   This will show you if you're >connected to a Workgroup or a Domain.

I did that because Vista requires that the Workgroup names be the same in order to set up file sharing (which I used to copy the Vmc and Vhd files between PCs) . I noticed that the field ABOVE the workgroup name was blank; I believe that the label for that field was Domain but I am not sure. (In XP there is no such field but if you click the More button there is a "DNS suffix field" which is blank for my office PC which is connected directly to a cable modem).

(2) POINTS ASSIGNED although most of your replies were not tested because I never really created a new Virtual PC, I just copied one already set up from another PC. But I may need to do that in the future.

(3) One of the blogs I looked at said that Adding Virtual Machine Additions IMPROVED THE PERFORMANCE of the Virtual PC. Another blog said that doing that allowed one to access usb devices (which already works without doing that). And KCTS said that installing Virtual PC tools (did he mean Virtual Machine additions ??) allows one to move the mouse between guest and host OS areas and clicking in either area (which also already works without installing that).

DOES INSTALLING VIRTUAL MACHINE ADDITIONS IMPROVE PERFORMANCE? And by how much, small amount or significant? The only app here is displaying hi-res X-rays remotely and switching between them but there are things to type in along the way.

Mike
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grahamwmCommented:
mgross333,

Some vm pointers.

1- the easiest way to create new VM PC's is to create a template VHD file. Once that is done creating new VM PC's is a doddle. Just start VM PC 2007, create new VM using exisitng VHD and you're away.

2- Always rename the VM PC when created, also a good idea to run "Newsid", generates a new SID for the PC, it is more essential for domain PC's but a good idea for workgroup PC's too. Newsid.exe can be downloaded from microsofts website

3- Always add Virtual machine additions(virtual machine tools) It greatly improves performance in all aspects of your virtual PC.

4- Always check your RAM, virtual PC's require the host system to have a fair amount of RAM for the host and the VM PC to exist and run well.

Got any questions, just ask.
Cheers
G
---6 VM domain PC's, 25 VM Servers----
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mgross333Author Commented:
Grahamwm,

(1) OK, When I am there next I will add Virtual Machine Additions/Tools to both VPC's. There have been some complaints about performance compared with native XP PCs at the same site, but other than when a remote X-ray is actually brought up, the peformance seems good to me. ISP speed is 6 Mbs.

How do I Add Virtual MAchine Additions?  Is it an Action choice in the VPC start up window? Do I have to choose which additions OR should I just choose all OR is there no choice? Also I have a print out from the internet that says it adds them from or to some weirdo virtual CD drive ??

(2) Regarding RAM, both PCs have 2 GB with about 1 GB assigned to the VPC (running XP) and 1 GB for Vista. So this is not an issue.

Regards,
   Mike
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mgross333Author Commented:
Regarding how to install Virtual PC additions/tools, I just noticed that KCTS already answered that with
"(Action->Install Virtual PC Tools) from the menu once you have an OS in the VPC..."

But I am still wondering about the role of the weirdo virtual CD drive in the installing the additions. Go to
http://content.zdnet.com/2346-10741_22-55420-27.html  to see what I mean. Look at the screen shot and the first two paragraphs under the screen shot.

Mike
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
"... In XP there is no such field ..." ==> Yes, there is ... and it's labeled "Domain" :-)

"... I never really created a new Virtual PC ..." ==> Not sure why not ... it is VERY simple to do :-)

"... did he mean Virtual Machine additions ..." ==> Yes.

"... which already works without doing that ..." ==> No, USB devices are NOT supported in Virtual PC.   They undoubtedly work on the HOST, but do NOT work in the virtual machine.   If you're accessing them via the virtual machine, it's because they're either mapped as a network device or shared as a folder through Virtual Machine Additions.

"... which also already works without installing that ..." ==> Then Virtual Machine Additions has already been installed ... this would NOT work otherwise.

"... DOES INSTALLING VIRTUAL MACHINE ADDITIONS IMPROVE PERFORMANCE? ..." ==> Yes.
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
... When I am there next I will add Virtual Machine Additions/Tools to both VPC's ..." ==> They're already installed :-)
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mgross333Author Commented:
Garycase,

(1) MOST INTERESTING !!! You claim that I already have Virtual Machines tools although I did not do Action> Install VM tools. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

(1) I absolutely did access the usb stick from within XP on the VPC, not on the host.
(2) I can move the mouse between the Host OS and Guest OS area and mouse clicks work in both areas.

IS THIS THE ANSWER:  Another tech installed VPC 2007 on both PCs. HE MUST HAVE ADDED THE VIRTUAL MACHINE TOOLS.  I then copy the vmc and vhd files from the other working PC to the newly installed Vista PC AND YOU ARE SAYING THAT THIS COPY ALSO COPIES THE VIRTUAL MACHINE TOOLS.  IS THAT RIGHT OR WRONG? Because that is the only explanation I can figure here.

(2) Regarding
> "... In XP there is no such field ..." ==> Yes, there is ... and it's labeled "Domain" :-)

Well I am on a XP Home SP2 PC and I can assure you that System Properties>Computer Name> Change  has no such field. Maybe XP Pro has it but XP Home does not.

Regards,
  Mike

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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
"... HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? " ==> You copied an existing virtual machine :-)   Clearly it had VM Additions installed.

"... (1) I absolutely did access the usb stick from within XP on the VPC, not on the host. " ==> There's a difference between accessing it ... which you can do with the VM Additions' Shared Folders feature;  and supporting a USB device ... which Virtual PC does NOT do.   Someone has already set up a shared folder (or possibly a mapped network drive) to allow access to the drive letter that your USB stick used.   The virtual machine DOES NOT work with USB devices directly => go to Device Manager on the virtual machine and there will NOT be any USB devices :-)

"... (2) I can move the mouse between the Host OS and Guest OS area and mouse clicks work in both areas. " ==> Clearly, as I already told you, this just means VM Additions is installed.

XP Home does not support domains => but you said the OS you were using was XP Pro ["... Host OS is Vista, Guest OS is XP Pro ..."]
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Gary CaseRetiredCommented:
... by the way, if you're supporting PC's, you should at least have XP Pro on your own system !!   It's actually a good idea to have ALL OS's that you may encounter on your system ==> this is trivial to do by simply installing Virtual PC and keeping a copy of every conceivable OS handy in virtual machines :-)

[On my system I have virtual machines with DOS, Windows for Workgroup v3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, XP Home, XP Pro, Vista Basic, Vista Home Premium, Vista Ultimate, Ubuntu, and Kubuntu :-) ]    A simple right-click, Start on the Virtual PC icon and I can be using whichever OS I want :-)

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