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janlafata

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Java x64 questions!

You guys will probably be seeing quite a few questions from me on this in the next week or so. I'm thinking of switching to Windows XP Pro x64, my first x64 Operating system. After some lenthy questions to you all a few days ago about the pluses and minuses of switching, I've decided I am going to swirtch soon. I just need to continue to get a few things straight in my mind.

I am still a little confused about what Java to install. I have already decided that I am going to use the x32 of Internet Explorer that comes with it, because with the x64 IE, you can't install Flash.
So I did some research, and was also told by one of your techs, that I should run the x64 version of Java, which I need as a requirement for some of my apps.

However, my question is: If I install the x64 version, that means in goes into the x64 files of the operating system including the x64 Internet Explorer. For the appelets, I assume. However, this won't help me, if I am using the x32 version of Internet Explorer. In other words, no part of Java will go in there, or will it? I'm not sure.

So wouldn't I just be better off installing the x32 version of Java so it covers IE or is that not possible on a x64 OS? Or could or should I install both? That way, I am covered with my app that needs it and covered x32 IE. But then, I suppose I wouldn't need the x64 of Java! You see the app that I talking about is for x32, I believe. You can see I have much confusion about all of this. I hope you can help me straighten it all out, because I won't start with the install untill I get all of my plans laid out.

Also I'm still also a bit confused about the availability of Flash for x64 Internet Explorer. When I was testing it briefly, I noticed that Flash would not install on x64 IE. Is that still true or are there workarounds? I'm figuring that is true, so I just plan to use x32 IE, which during my testing, I found that Flash installed just fine on.

But how about Firefox 64. One tech said that Flash installed fine on that and the x32 version. You see I would like to use Firefox, hopefully x64 as my default browser.

That's alll I have for now. Thank you
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Gary Case
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The 64-bit IE runs Flash just fine [I'm using it right now & just ran a couple of flash demos to confirm my memory wasn't faulty on this :-) ].   The latest stable Sun JRE, however, is 32-bit => but it also runs just fine with Vista Ultimate x64 & IE-7 64-bit.   There is an x64 beta available that I haven't yet installed -- although I may have to give that a try :-)

A few thoughts r.e. your post:  

(1)  I'd consider going with Vista x64 rather than XP x64 => there's a lot more driver activity in the Vista space these days.   If you KNOW all of your hardware has XP x64 drivers then that's no problem;  but most newer development is for Vista drivers.

(2)  I'd restructure your partitions and install your x64 OS in addition to your current OS ==> then you can easily transition; and can switch between the two (or more) as you need to.   If you structure the system with each OS in its own primary partition; and your data in a dedicated partition; you can have them all set up to use the SAME data --> so your e-mail; bookmarks; documents; etc. are available no matter which system you've booted to.   I've got this system (the one I'm typing this on) set up so I can boot to XP Home, XP Pro, XP MCE, Vista Ultimate, and Vista Ultimate x64 at will (with a simple double-click to switch) ... and they all use the same "Documents" ("My Documents" in XP) location, so all of my data, e-mail, etc. is the same no matter which system I boot to.   VERY convenient :-)

(3)  Configure your system so you can easily image any OS => then you can simply image the current state; try anything you want; and trivially restore to the image (~ 10 min) if needed.   ESPECIALLY while you're "playing" with various components; configurations; etc. that's VERY nice to be able to do.   I have my systems set up so each OS has an "Image Now!" icon that I can simply double-click to make a current image.   ... which I always do before making any notable changes.   With this setup you can fearlessly try ANYTHING -- since it's trivial to recover if anything goes awry.
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janlafata

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Gary..Thanks for replying. This one sure took awhile! First of all, I cannot afford to go Vista at this time. The only reason I am running XP Pro x64 is that it was given to me by a friend who works for a Microsoft company and they get free software. Plus, I don't think much of Vista. I did try it for 4 months!

Now on to my current situation. I've got my XP x64 up and running pretty good. All of my drivers are x64 and now I have sound, video and a printer running with no problems. I wasn't able to find a x64 driver for my scanner, but I did some research and found a program that supposedly will run my Canon LiDe 30. I don't know how it works yet, so if I run into any problems, I'll be asking for more help. It's called VueScan.

Next, as far as Flash running in IE x64....I don't know how you did it but I can't get it to work. As I was typing this I just went to the adobe website to make sure and I received this message "Adobe Flash Player is not supported for playback in a 64-bit browser". I also tried something I read about. I went into the Windows\SysWow64\Macromed\Flash folder and updated in there but I still cannot see anything on sites like YouTube. I even got a x64 type of message on that site about it.

I was able to get Flash to work on x32 IE and that may end up being just fine with me. (using IE x32 as default that is). But I'd still like to know how, step-by-step, with all the details, you got it to work on x64 IE. Are you sure your not just talking about Vista IE x64?

Finally, as far as Java goes, if you check my initial first thread on all of this, "Leaning Towards Windows x64" You'll see in the first tech reply a link for Java 64. So now I am a bit confused as to what I should do. Please let me know on this one. From what I can understand anyway, at this point, none of the Java's will provide browser plug-ins for 64, but I don't know if that means just x64 IE. I would think it would install a plugin in IE x32.

Anyway, just so you know, the only reason I need to install Java, is that one of my 32 bit apps demands it, otherwise I wouldn't be messing with it.

I'll stop for now. I'm am so gratefull that someone replied to this finally becuase I am having fun with this. Through it all I have found out there many, many more XP Pro x64 users out there, and I found some pretty good resources too.
The whole reason I am doing this , is because I like to be different and , I'll tell ya...this thing really flies on my system! Please replay as soon as you can.
Since you have all the drivers for your system, XPx64 should run just fine --> hopefully your scanner will also work well with the 3rd party driver you found.

As for Flash ... I simply installed it directly from Adobe's site, and it definitely works.  There may (must) be something different in the way the x64 version of IE works in Vista vs. XP ... but it definitely works.   But the simple reality is that the x32 version of IE is just fine --> and in fact isn't any "slower" than the x64 version in any practical way (since it's still much faster than the "internet pipe" that's feeding it) ... so I'd just use that and the 32-bit versions of Flash and Java.   I haven't installed the x64 version of Java yet ... but do plan to give it a try sometime this week [I just imaged the system again last night & plan to install SP1 on both the x32 and x64 versions of Vista in the next couple of days.   After I do that I think I'll give the x64 Java a try as well].

I've actually thought about adding an XP x64 partition to my bootable systems --> this thread may induce me to do that :-)   ... as if I don't have enough on my "... do it someday" list already !! :-)
Gary..I knew I was going to have more questions! I found one nasty little thing about XP x64 that is going to be challenging. The Spell Checker in OE wil not work becasue OE in XP x64 is 64 bit ad Microsofft Office 2003 is 32 bit. So , once again, I've done some Googling and found , so far, at least one logical-sounding fix. Here it is:

"You can work around this if you have access to XP Pro 32 bit. Just copy the files from Outlook Express into a directory you create on your XP Pro x64 drive. NOTE: You cannot use \Program Files\Outlook Express or \Program Files (x86)\Outlook Express. And for correctness, I would recommend \Program Files  (x86)\32 Bit Outlook Express  Then create a shortcut to the file
msimn.exe on your desktop. Spell check works again.
Also, I should warn you that this is NOT supported, and some have reported
problems doing this. I on the other hand, have had no problems using the
setup I described above. Also, you must have at least one major component of
Office 2002 or Office 2003 installed, such as Word, Access, Excel, etc...
for spellcheck to function in OE."

I would like to verify this with you or at least see if you think it sounds feasible.
Also how would I copy the OE files off my regular XP Pro cd as the guy who wrote this suggests? I've never been very good at extracting files from OS cd's. ALso..do they make a x64 version of Office?
I'm not aware of an x64 version of Office => I've got Office 2007 Ultimate installed on both my 32-bit and 64-bit Vista loads, and it works just fine in both.

As for spell checking in your e-mail => just use Thunderbird :-)
(It's a 32-bit app, but works fine and has a built-in spell checker)

But you can also simply extract the OE files as you've noted.   One reasonably easy way to do this (without having to use Extract and wondering which exact set of files to get) is to simply install Virtual PC 2007 on your system; then install XP Pro 32 bit in a virtual machine -> then you can just go to Program Files\Outlook Express and copy the entire directory to a shared folder on your "real" PC :-)
I've never used Virtual PC 2007 before. It sounds hard to setup, and is it free?
I may try it that way, but I still personally would like to know how to extract the OE files off my XP Pro disc and on to my hard drive, just like the guy above describes. So could you maybe talk to someone else or check with another tech to see how I could extract those OE files? It can't be that hard. In the meantime, like I said, I might try that Virtual PC you mentioned, but I don't like alot of junk on my system, so I hope it's easy io uninstall.

On a side note, on my "x64 quest", I am finding all sorts of x32 programs that I was told would not work on x64, work anyway! Makes me wonder if a particular vendors product has good support technicians? More later I'm sure..thanks
It's very simple to set up => just download it [http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=04D26402-3199-48A3-AFA2-2DC0B40A73B6&displaylang=en ]  (Get the 64-bit version);  then install it;  then run the New Virtual Machine Wizard  (just accept the defaults for anything you're not sure about);  then you "boot" the virtual machine from your XP CD and install XP 32-bit in the virtual machine.

... Yes, it's easy to uninstall => but I suspect you won't want to :-)   It's VERY handy if you ever want to try something in total isolation on "another PC"  or with another OS.

As for simply extracting the files from your CD ==> that's very simple:   You just run the EXPAND program in the I386 folder to expand whatever file you want.   For example, to expand MSIMN.EXE to C:\OEStuff from your XP CD in a CD drive that was assigned F:, you would just open a command prompt; navigate to F:\I386; and then type the following command:  EXPAND MSIMN.EX_  C:\OEStuff\MSIMN.EXE
... of course you have to know exactly what files you need to expand.

The files in the Program Files\Outlook Express directory are:  msimn.exe, msoe.dll, msoe.txt, msoeres.dll, oeimport.dll, oemig50.exe, oemiglib.dll, setup50.exe, wab.exe, wabfind.dll, wabimp.dll, and wabmig.exe.   All of these are in compressed form in the I386 directory on the XP CD, and can easily be expanded as I just noted.

... by the way, I don't know whether or not you need all of those files (or if there are others that are also needed but not stored in the Program Files area) --> but if you extract those into a single directory (e.g. OEStuff) and try what was suggested in the post you referenced you'll soon know :-)
Gary,

I got everything loaded, just like you instructed, placed the expanded files in a "32 Bit Outlook Express" folder in the (x86) Program Files, clicked on the msinm.exe file and got this message "Outlook Express could not be started because MSOE.DLL could not be loaded"

I even deleted the x32 MSOE.DLL and replaced it with one from the x86 Outlook Express folder (which I understand is still x64) and from the x64 Program Files\Outlook Express folder, but I got the same message. So close but no go! Any ideas? I sure don't how that other guy pulled this off!
Gary,
One additional note. Could a possible solution be that we need to disable the other Outlook Express before this new stuff works? If so, how would we do that? And actually, and I'm not sure you knew this or not, there are two Outlook Express folders that came with my x64. One in the x64 Program Files and one in the x32 Program Files. There's gotta' be a way to pull this off!

I know, I know...Go Thunderbird!..Actually if I can't get this to work, I probably might. They even have a x64 version now. But before, along time ago, when I tried Thunderbird, I got frustrated with the fact that I couldn't export my old Outlook Express contacts that I had imported into Thunderbird. What I mean is, after I set up up Thunderbird, I imported my OE contacts (in CSV form) just fine into T-Bird, but when I added a new contact in Thunderbird, I couldn't then export them back and replace with a new backup of my contacts. I hope that makes sense. Any thoughts on this or did I do something wrong?
Not sure what the OE issue is -- I did note that the info you listed before had a note that said NOT to use the Program Files (x86) folder ["... NOTE: You cannot use \Program Files\Outlook Express or \Program Files (x86)\Outlook Express."] ... not sure if the fact you put the folder in there had an impact or not.

As for Thunderbird ... the Address Book does have an Export feature --> not sure if it provides the features you want; but I've been very pleased with Thunderbird.
Gary,

I have to correct you on those above instructions. The guy said "You cannot use \Program Files\Outlook Express or \Program Files (x86)\Outlook Express. For correctness, I would recommend \Program Files  (x86)\32 Bit Outlook Express"

And that is exactly where I put those files. Have you or any of your colleagues had a chace to figure out why this fix didn't work. I tried to email the guy who wrote that, but his mailbox is closed. Isn't there a way under Folder Options and File Types to make the new files work as the default OE? Other than that I could always edit the registry, couldn't I, and remove all references to Outlook Express? I know that is tricky though.

I know I could also remove all the files in both those Outlook Express folders on Program Files. I noticed in the past, when I did this that some of the files delete and some don't. In that case I use a program called "Unlocker" which can usually get rid of files that won't delete. But I guess those are system files and they may not even delete. Also, even if I was able to get rid of those two folders, I know that's no guarantee that the new folder I created with the x32 version of OE will work. I'd probably just get that error message again.

As you your starting to see, I just can't seem to let this go. I am a huge problem solver and I just look at this thing as one more little thing to take care of. It still irks me that Microsoft won't fix this too!

For the time being, (and for my sanity), if we can't come up with a solution, I think I'll just let this go for awhile. I can always come back to it. On another note...I noticed that in the email messages that I get, when there is an HTML link, I've noticed that they are links for the x64 Internet Explorer, not the 32 version and I am trying to use just the x32 version. Is there any way to change this so that the links that are shown direct me to the x32 version? thanks for all of your help so far.
I missed that the suggested folder was in the same subfolder :-)
I've no idea why the fix worked for the other guy, but not for you.  Note that he did say "... I should warn you that this is NOT supported, and some have reported problems doing this ..."

... so clearly there's some component that must be properly registered for it to work -> and the only way to identify that is through experimentation.   I don't have an XPx64 install (and don't use OE) ... so you'll have to do that experimentation.   Be sure to make a baseline image, so you can avoid the need to do any reinstalls as you experiment :-)   A 10-minute restore is a lot more convenient !!

... did you try registering the DLL ?  [regsvr32 MSOE.DLL --> run this from the directory that contains the DLL]



Gary,
Today I am officially halting my search to find a solution to the Spell Checker problem. I guess even tech nerds like me have to know when to stop!
Now the only question I still face is whether to go Thunderbird or Outlook.

I tried the x64 of Thunderbird yesterday and it crashed several times on me. I guess they're still working out the bugs on that. So I am going to see if the x32 works. I imagine it should.

I also wanted to ask you about Spyware protection. So far, the only decent programs that I hear will work are Webroot Spy Sweeper, (which I can only find references for the Vista x64 version, but I bet it works in XP x64} and I just emailed SuperAntiSpyware to see if their new version works in x64.

Those are the only ones that I think would do a decent job. I did find a x64 of Windows Defender, though I don't think much of that program. And I usually don't feel like Ad-Aware or SpyBot do that thorough of job, so I don't mess with them.

Also, have you when Firefox will release the final of version 3? Really waiting for that. I did find one program that their techs said wouldn't work on my x64. NTI CD & DVD Maker 7 Platinum. It works perfect and I even wrote those guys to tell them about it.

So all in all, I'm finding a few surprises with some of the programs I am having to test. But when I'm trying out something new, I just create a restore point, and if it doesn't work, I revert back. So far, so good!

This will probably be the last entry on the intitial issue of the Spell Checker. After I hear from you one more time, you can go ahead and close out this ticket.
Thanks for all of your patience and advice.
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Gary Case
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