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Variable naming conventions in C++ & Java

Posted on 2008-06-24
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Hello!

I have a short question. In my years of object-oriented software development, I programmed both C++ and Java. Some guys programming C++ were chaotic, using no naming conventions. Their code was difficult to read. Others used either the Hungarian or the Polish notation.

I started with Java in 2002. Nobody abides by one of these notations, but uses a so-called "Java" notation. I can remember that I quarreled with a technical project leader, who was against a member variable name that started with "m_i<VarName>", say. He said that he himself favours the this.<varName> version.

My question is: Is there a good reason for Java people not to stick to the Hungarian notation? Both developers in these languages use IDEs today with text highlighting, so the modern working environments can't be the reason for it.

Thank you for your contribution!
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Question by:sae1962at
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by:shaz_
ID: 21853750
i dont think there is a real reason why they dont, mb a lot of them are not even aware of it. I was certianly not taught anything about hungarian notiations at university. So when i started work out of uni i just followed my ugly ways and got used to them. If they were used as a standard in education they would be followed a lot more i guess.
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evilrix earned 20 total points
ID: 21853788
>> Is there a good reason for Java people not to stick to the Hungarian notation?
If the data types change (and they can/do) you either have to refactor lots of code (which may or may not be a simple search and replace) or have code that is self-documenting but also mis-leading.

IMHO: The names of variables should identify their role and not their type, which is an implementation detail. certainly, in OOP this is argument is more strongly supported by the fact that different types can implement the similar semantics.
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by:shaz_
ID: 21853803
>> If the data types change (and they can/do) you either have to refactor lots of code (which may or may not be a simple search and replace) or have code that is self-documenting but also mis-leading.

err if datatypes chage and u are following the notations u would change the anmes anyway... not changing them would just be plain lazy... specially with mordern IDEs its not that much of a hassle
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Assisted Solution

by:sciuriware
sciuriware earned 20 total points
ID: 21853814
Hi,
I've seen programming in many languages and I abstained from naming other than
a serious description of the purpose.
If the typing is right and assignments make sense there is no use for further conventions.

Methods that return boolean may be named "is....()" but others should reflect what they do.
With the advent of good editors like ECLIPSE GANYMEDE that let you see by context
coloring and styling what is local, static, number and string constant everything comes back to
sensible naming.

And:  ConnectToDatabaseTopicsBasenameConstants.connectToDatabaseTopicsBasenameConstantsPrimary = 5;

Is also unwanted.

If you can read and understand your own programs back after your next assignment,
you've done a good job.

;JOOP!
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by:evilrix
ID: 21853825
>> not changing them would just be plain lazy
It's not a case of lazy, it's a case of cost! If you change it you break it until it's been QA's and regression tested and proven to not be broken. This costs time and money. I am talking about this from a professional development stance, not a coding at home in your bedroom point of view.

In OOP the use of such notations has little meaning, it is mis-leading can can lead to mis-understanding of code because someone reads and assumes something that may be untrue. The names should only reflect the semantics and not the syntax.

>>  mordern IDEs its not that much of a hassle
Not everyone uses "modern IDEs".
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by:shaz_
ID: 21853899
>>. I am talking about this from a professional development stance
>> Not everyone uses "modern IDEs".

professional development stance.. and no mordern ide... mmmm i dont mean to knock your ideas mate but i still havent seen professional development happening without mordern IDEs ..

>>It's not a case of lazy, it's a case of cost! If you change it you break it until it's been QA's and regression tested and proven to not be broken. This costs time and money.
well if u change datatype u would be changing a lot all over the place generally aswell... and will require testing it... just my two cents anyway

>> I am talking about this from a professional development stance, not a coding at home in your bedroom point of view.

no need to take jabs..  only trying to have a productive discussion...




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by:evilrix
ID: 21853930
>>  i still havent seen professional development happening without mordern IDEs ..
And if you don't see it then it doesn't happen right?

>> well if u change datatype u would be changing a lot all over the place generally aswell
But your actual code change is isolated to one place, if you manually (or use search and replace) modify potentially thousands of lines of code you may or may not do significantly more serious damage. It's all a matter of scale.

>> no need to take jabs..  only trying to have a productive discussion
I wasn't making a jab, I was pointing out this was the point of view of a someone who has to consider this kind of thing from a business case point of view. Clearly, if you are writing code for your own purposes this business case may not apply. The context is, I think, important to the point I am making.
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by:rcompt
ID: 21853966
My guess is that if you are into Hungarian, you came by it using VC++

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa260976(VS.60).aspx

Any guess why Java programmers would have an aversion to it?
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by:shaz_
ID: 21853971
= ) im sure it happens in some dark corner of the globe but my simple point of view is .. the mordern tools i.e. IDEs etc are there just for that very point ure making of "cost and time" for a business.... if u try writing an enterprise application using editors where your greatest refactor tool is "search and replace" then ure already weighing your productivity down by a major factor.

I just dont see a real reason why hungarian annotations cannot be followed in this day n age
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by:Infinity08
ID: 21854029
>> I just dont see a real reason why hungarian annotations cannot be followed in this day n age

I don't see any reason why they should be followed ;)

Imo, they needlessly clutter the code with irrelevant information. If you want to know the type and scope of a variable, just look at its definition (today's modern IDE's can easily do that for you ;) ).
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by:sae1962at
ID: 21854044
I saw professional coding without any IDEs in use. It was at the largest software company of the world, with 33.000 software developers. Their QA was excellent concerning design and its documentation. But the code was a whole mess, being better to throw it away but being not good enough to reuse it. That are real cost factors, if you write more or less the same part over and over again.

I personally disagree that coding notation is useless or that it increases the costs. On the opposite: It makes the reading & understanding better. If you see that a member variable is used, you will immediately see it. I can remember searching for an initialisation that didn't occured in that file, but on a parent class.

Concerning testing costs, to make a change to the type in a STRONGLY-TYPED LANGUAGE will be itself enough to test this part again. To make an additional Search ... Replace of the old variable name to its new name (case-sensitive, whole word only) will solve the problem. The only and minor cost increase is that the number of lines modified from one version to another increase, but with a search and search next, you will go from modified line to the next modified line and see that the names were all changed properly.

In the unlike case of destroying the name of a variable, the compiler will catch most of the cases...
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by:evilrix
ID: 21854055
>> the mordern tools i.e. IDEs etc are there just for that very point ure making of "cost and time" for a business
And my point is we don't all develop for platforms that support such wonders! You are making an assumption that isn't true. That; however, is not the point. Any amount of refactoring, automated or otherwise, can break existing code. I'm all for refactoring when there is a business case for it, in this case there is not.

>> I just dont see a real reason why hungarian annotations cannot be followed in this day n age
Turn the Q around, why do you see any reason for using it? What does szFilename tell me that filename doesn't apart from the first one is probably a char const *. Why does this matter? If I try to use it incorrectly the compiler will tell me. What it's for is more important than what it is. Providing these details is in fundamental conflict with the principles of abstraction and encapsulation. I am exposing an implementation detail that is unnecessary. If I have an interface that originally took a char const * and then I changed it to a std::string it would still work, why should the consumer of this interface care which it is?
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by:rstaveley
ID: 21854067
Nicely put by sciuriware. Even Microsoft have moved away from Hungarian notation.
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by:evilrix
ID: 21854122
>> It makes the reading & understanding better
It makes it misleading! When you read a book do you need to be told whether a word is a verb or an adjective? You look at the context and semantics tells you. It is the same in well written code, the use of such notation is syntactical sugar and over time this sweetness sours as code is maintained... what started out as a help becomes a significant hinderence.

>> Concerning testing costs, to make a change to the type in a STRONGLY-TYPED LANGUAGE will be itself enough to test this part again
If you change an int to a long the changes of breaking anything are negligible. If you then have to refactor all the code to rename the variable you potentially introduce far more problems. With a type change the compiler will tell you if something isn't right. Trust your compiler and read the warnings. Also, if you know what you are doing you can also introduce compile time constraints to protect against a lot of issues to do with assumptions made about types.

>> In the unlike case of destroying the name of a variable, the compiler will catch most of the cases...
Ok, for example, you end up changing the name to something that already exists in the same scope. Suddenly you might shadow a variable and change the whole behavior of a section of code, this would be a very hard defect to tract down. The compiler will not help you.
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by:Infinity08
ID: 21854135
>> My question is: Is there a good reason for Java people not to stick to the Hungarian notation?

I see you accepted the answer that says that there is no reason ...

While several of us agree that there IS a good reason not to use it.

It's your right to stick to your point of view, but then I don't see why you were asking our opinion on it if you're gonna ignore it anyway :) That's a waste of our and your time imo.
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by:evilrix
ID: 21854145
@sae1962at,

You asked for reasons for not using notation, you have accepted an answer that provides no such reason or any real useful argument for or against!
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by:rstaveley
ID: 21854162
Only accepting an answer that confirms your prejudices is what the religion TA is for.
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by:evilrix
ID: 21854198
I do not believe this Q, with the currently selected answer, is useful for the PAQ so I have requested moderator review.
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Community_Support/General/Q_23510470.html
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by:sae1962at
ID: 21854408
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by:Infinity08
ID: 21854443
What's your point, sae1962at ? I think we mentioned the same disadvantages, which would answer your question :

>> My question is: Is there a good reason for Java people not to stick to the Hungarian notation?

Why were they ignored ?
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by:sae1962at
ID: 21854898
Well, my point is to stick to one of them. But as an external software developer who has to work with our customers, I have to follow their conventions. So, reluctantly, I use the "Java" coding convention (although there is nothing like that), explained in a few sentences, like:
+ Start a class with capital letters
+ Start a method or a variable/property with a small letter
+ If a name consists of several words, make the first word of each a capital letter. Do not use underscores
+ If an object is final, use capitals only, separating the words with underscores.

Concerning the points, this question had only 55. I tried to divide the points into three, but the minimal point I can assign to one person in XE are 20 points. So, I distributed the points among the first two answers that answered the question, although there are more answers. Actually, I didn't expect that so many people would answer such a low-point question.
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by:evilrix
ID: 21854941
>> I distributed the points among the first two answers that answered the question
Neither post you selected 'answers' your question. You asked, "Is there a good reason for Java people not to stick to the Hungarian notation?". Neither of the selected answer provides an answer to this, just an option that asserts the experts doesn't see any reason not to. There are other answers that give well structured reasons why some (many!) developers avoid such idioms.

It is for this reason I have asked for a review. The points are not important but the fact you have selected answers that do not answer the original Q make the usefulness of this thread in the PAQ database questionable.
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by:Infinity08
ID: 21854971
>> So, I distributed the points among the first two answers that answered the question

You accepted two answers (by the same expert) that claim that there is no reason NOT to use hungarian notation.

That doesn't answer your question accurately, because there ARE reasons NOT to use hungarian notation, as has been discussed by several other experts.


>> Actually, I didn't expect that so many people would answer such a low-point question.

The points don't matter - most of us are here to help people, not to get points. What we do care about however, is that our efforts are appreciated (when they deserve to be appreciated), and are not simply ignored.
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by:sae1962at
ID: 21855085
OK, you mean the "Is this what you were looking for?" part. I said "Yes" to your answer, as it is an answer. But I do not subscribe your opinion, as I can see with the "unnecessary cluttering information" immediately what a variable it is. I do not "ask" the IDE that will jump around from one point to another. And, who says that I will use IDEs all the time?

It is like reading that "Mark says that..." and immediately knowing that this person, who says something, is a man. If a somebody from Europe or North America would read "Rama says that ...", this person will may be not know, if Rama is a he or a she.

If I read m_szMantisID, I know not immediately that there is something called "Mantis" having an IDentification, but that this is a member variable and (perhaps) a string or something. With mantisID, I do not know this, making me feel uncomfortable, like with Mr. or Ms. Rama above.

I do appreciate your contribution. Now I know what counts for experts at XE: Beside the points, the buttons near to "Is this what you were looking for?". :-)
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by:sae1962at
ID: 21855089
OK, you mean the "Is this what you were looking for?" part. I said "Yes" to your answer, as it is an answer. But I do not subscribe your opinion, as I can see with the "unnecessary cluttering information" immediately what a variable it is. I do not "ask" the IDE that will jump around from one point to another. And, who says that I will use IDEs all the time?

It is like reading that "Mark says that..." and immediately knowing that this person, who says something, is a man. If a somebody from Europe or North America would read "Rama says that ...", this person will may be not know, if Rama is a he or a she.

If I read m_szMantisID, I know not immediately that there is something called "Mantis" having an IDentification, but that this is a member variable and (perhaps) a string or something. With mantisID, I do not know this, making me feel uncomfortable, like with Mr. or Ms. Rama above.

I do appreciate your contribution. Now I know what counts for experts at XE: Beside the points, the buttons near to "Is this what you were looking for?". :-)
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by:Infinity08
ID: 21855296
You're still missing the point it seems :)

Your question :

>> My question is: Is there a good reason for Java people not to stick to the Hungarian notation?

was misleading. You didn't want a serious answer about the disadvantages of hungarian notation - what you really wanted was somebody to back you up with your opinion.
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by:sae1962at
ID: 21855330
evilrix had a good question above:

>>It makes it misleading! When you read a book do you need to be told whether a word is a verb or an adjective? You look at the context and semantics tells you. It is the same in well written code, the use of such notation is syntactical sugar and over time this sweetness sours as code is maintained... what started out as a help becomes a significant hinderence.

Yes, there IS a reason to differentiate, but again, language experts differ. In German, you have to differ a noun by starting it with a capital letter. You have to write also the first letter of a sentence in capital. This is also a disputed rule: You never need in in semitic languages. You even do not need any punctuation in Arabic, but this may be a problem in another language because of its grammer, semantics or because people got used to it.

Again, I see that there are some opinions not to use notations (Hungarian or Polish or whatever). I am just working with a code of our customer who uses capital letters a the first letter of methods or objects. So, the instances cannot be differentiated by naming conventions but by the semantics. This is for me disturbing, and I would appreciate if they would not start instance or method names by capital letters.

Of course, nobody has to accept my view. But with more than 15 years of hardware & software design, I do consider myself not a beginner in this subject. ;-)

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by:evilrix
ID: 21855344
@sae1962at, you are really missing the (important) point here. It doesn't matter whether you subscribe to the for or against camp. The point is you asked for reasons why someone may choose not to use Hungarian notation, and valid reasons were given. You selected posts that didn't answer this question, ostensibly, just because they reinforce your reasoning for wanting to use them.
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by:sae1962at
ID: 21855385
I was searching for pros and cons. That was all I needed. Returning to my example: Knowing five (natural) languages, I see that not knowing whether a person is male or female is a problem to some cultures. Others ignore it.

Obviously, there are similar "cultures" among computer experts. I do follow the Hungarian notation, and I will continue to do so as long as customers forbid me to use it. I would never try to assign a character to a iMantisID, but I may test it with an alphanumeric value if it is an szMantisID. No IDE or documentation is need, as the name documents some additional attributes IMPORTANT TO ME (like being numeric), which is unimportant to others (LIKE YOU).
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by:evilrix
ID: 21855577
>> Of course, nobody has to accept my view. But with more than 15 years of hardware & software design
This isn't about your view, this is about you asking a question, getting good answers and then ignoring them because they disagree with your own belief. This is also about wasting my time and that of other experts when we could be helping someone else.

>> I would never try to assign a character to a iMantisID
And say you were working with a construct like below (I am not advocating this code as being good or bad, just an example of something you might come across), that someone else had written and to which you had no control. How do you factor Hungarian Notation, logically, into that?

BTW: I take it you know there is a difference between Hungarian Systems Notation and Hungarian Apps notation? Also, Polish Notation has nothing to do with data types. I'd have though someone with 15 years experience might know this.

"Polish notation, also known as prefix notation, is a form of notation for logic, arithmetic, and algebra"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_notation

Apart from responding to any moderator requests, I am done wasting my time with this pointless thread!
#include <string>

#include <sstream>
 

class MantisID

{

public:

	MantisID(std::string const & id) : id_(id) {}
 

	MantisID(char const * id) : id_(id) {}
 

	MantisID(int id)

	{

		std::stringstream ss;

		ss << id;

		id_ = ss.str();

	}
 

	operator std::string const & () const { return id_; }

	operator char const * () const { return id_.c_str(); }

	operator int () const

	{

		std::stringstream ss(id_);

		int id;

		ss >> id;

		return id;

	}
 

private:

	std::string id_;

};
 
 

int main()

{

	MantisID mid1(1);

	MantisID mid2("2");

	MantisID mid3(std::string("3"));
 

	int ida1 = mid1;

	char const * idb1 = mid1;

	std::string idc1 = mid1;
 

	int ida2 = mid2;

	char const * idb2 = mid2;

	std::string idc2 = mid2;
 

	int ida3 = mid3;

	char const * idb3 = mid3;

	std::string idc3 = mid3;

}

Open in new window

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by:sae1962at
ID: 21872928
My point is that coding that sticks to some notation (like one of the Hungarian versions, although I prefer the Systems instead of Apps) is better readable. I could not find any point that is good enough to me to change my mind. That's why, I gave the first two answeres whose answers were persuasive to me the points. It was not possible to make a 20+20+15 point division, as the least points can be 20.

The arguments that code change will be large if the type of a variable is changed: It is true that instead of changing one line of code, using Hungarian (or some other) notation, you have to change ALL the lines that use this variable. This is to me, however, NOT an argument not to use Hungarian notation. Only somebody who does not feel the comfort the notation would say such an argument. If this person is annoyed by the HN, he/she will be annoyed n times, if the change is made n times in the code. So, this point is NOT convincing to me. So, it is not a good proposition to change. Therefore, I didn't gave points to it.
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by:evilrix
ID: 21873004
For the benefit of the moderators...

>> I could not find any point that is good enough to me to change my mind
But that was NOT a prerequisite of the question -- the question just asked for reasons and they were given, whether you think they are a good enough reason to not use HN was never part of the criteria stated (nor should it be). The question was, "Is there a good reason for Java people not to stick to the Hungarian notation?". You were given good reasons. You may not subscribe to them and of course you are free not too; however, the fact is your personal preferences don't change the fact that the question you asked was answered.

BTW: You also never responded to {http:#21855577} which gives a good example of where the use of HN breaks down (one of many I should add).

My reason for requesting review isn't because of your preference (frankly, I don't care whether you are for or against); rather, it is because you have asked a question and then used undisclosed criteria to close it. If I ask you do you prefer hard or soft boiled eggs and you say hard and I prefer soft , regardless of whether I like your answer doesn't change the fact that it does answer the question!

>> So, this point is NOT convincing to me
There was never any reason to convince you. It was not part of the original criteria for this question... nor should it have been. I think rstaveley puts this into context best in his post {http:#21854162} where he states, "Only accepting an answer that confirms your prejudices is what the religion TA is for".

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by:Infinity08
Infinity08 earned 20 total points
ID: 21873034
Re-read this : http:#21855296

Then read the code conventions Sun (the Java guys) recommend :

        http://java.sun.com/docs/codeconv/
        http://java.sun.com/docs/codeconv/html/CodeConventions.doc8.html#367

Note that it's not hungarian notation.

Then see what Bjarne Stroustrup (the creator of C++) has to say about hungarian notation in C++ :

        http://www.research.att.com/~bs/glossary.html#GHungarian-notation

which also applies to Java.

Then read up on the history of hungarian notation, and realize that it was created for a language that had only one data type (a machine word), so it made sense to have some way of knowing the type of a variable.

Then finally re-read all of the arguments against hungarian notation that were made in this thread, with an open mind (I know that's difficult since you already formed your opinion long before this question).
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by:sciuriware
ID: 21873273
Well said, Infinity08!

;JOOP!
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by:sciuriware
ID: 21896707
21853788, 21853814, 21853825.

;JOOP!
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by:evilrix
ID: 21897150
>> it seems that a three-way split is in order
PAQ: {http:#21853788} evilrix
PAQ: {http:#21853814} sciuriware
PAQ: {http:#21873034} Infinity08 (posted after original Q was closed but it's a fine answer that deserves recongnition)
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by:rstaveley
ID: 21907316
Has someone changed the colour scheme? That administrator comment made me jump out of my seat.
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by:evilrix
ID: 21907389
>> Has someone changed the colour scheme?
I too noticed that too. It's pretty hideous, isn't it? I think someone in EE engineering is having a bit of a laugh with the expert skin!
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by:Infinity08
ID: 21907733
It takes some getting used to - all expert comments are now blue (which used to be the accepted color or administrative) - I was a bit confused when first seeing that lol.
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by:evilrix
ID: 21907760
The trouble is it now stands out far too much at work. Before it was discrete and I could get away with leaving my browser open :)
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by:rstaveley
ID: 21908663
I just thought I'd try out the premium skin again to see what that's like and it is quite uncanny. They have a picture of me that looks just like me, but with a load of military regalia. Spookily enough evilrix and Infinity08 look just like me too. Do you think it is some genetic C++ thing?
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by:Infinity08
ID: 21908773
I think when you've been programming for a while, you start to look like all other programmers ... Depressing isn't it ?
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by:rstaveley
ID: 21908901
I'm thinking of having a make-over to differentiate myself from other C++ developers. Perhaps people will start to take me more seriously. How about this? ...
answerInfoColIconMaleSage.png
0
 
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by:evilrix
ID: 21909593
@rstaveley :)

Good point, we should be given the ability to have Avatars!
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by:Infinity08
ID: 21909841
I like the pink touch, rstaveley ;)
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by:sciuriware
ID: 21910488
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by:rstaveley
ID: 21911255
Is this really you, sciuriware, or was that a clever disguise you were wearing, when you were photographed?
2144.gif
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by:sciuriware
ID: 21911928
It stands for my hobbies since I retired.
I have no reasonable figure to express my programming past.

;JOOP!
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by:rstaveley
ID: 21914245
Avatars would certainly make EE look less bland.
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by:sciuriware
ID: 21936154
:) glad my face remains unseen ...................................
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by:rstaveley
ID: 21945346
You're quite right, PenguinMod, though I do think your penguin looks quite professional. It's hard to doubt the authority of the bearer of an avatar like that :-)

Thanks for sharing!
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The viewer will be introduced to the member functions push_back and pop_back of the vector class. The video will teach the difference between the two as well as how to use each one along with its functionality.

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