SBS 2003 and redundancy

There is no problem adding as many domain controllers as you like to an existing SBS domain. It is just SBS must be the first one and must hold the FSMO roles. The other DC's can be used more or less as back up domain controllers, though that term no longer exists.

You cannot install SBS "without the SBS features. Firstly the base SBS install is not exactly server 2003, and it is also a clear licensing violation.

If you wish to add a second DC, create the computer account using the new server wizard in the server management console of the SBS, join the new server using the http://SBS/connectcomputer wizard, then run DCPromo on the new server, and install DNS using integrated zone option.

As for additional Exchange server's, to the best of my knowledge that is not possible with SBS.

I have not personally used it, though I was at a presentation that described the functionality of DoubleTake - which will essentially fail over an SBS system to other hardware should the first go down.  It's not all that cheap (I believe appropriate licenses will cost $1500-2000 for SBS), at least at first glance... but if your business would lose more money in an outage than the product would cost, then you should definitely consider it - there are trial versions available.

www.doubletake.com

Also, a competitor product with similar functionality:

http://www.neverfailgroup.com/

I have a client using DoubleTake and swears by it. They are using it on Server 2003 std, but I have no idea about SBS compatibility.

Another option would be an alternate back up solution. I recently saw a demo of Symantec's new SBS back up and recovery option, specifically for SBS (in the $700 range), which allows restoration to dissimilar hardware. I am not normally a Symantec fan, but this was very impressive. Not only can you restore to different hardware but it can be restored as a virtual machine. This would allow a replacement machine to be up and running almost as fast as you could copy the file from the back up media. According to a recent seminar I attended, you can download a working copy with a 30 trial period, though I haven't tried it.
http://www.symantec.com/business/products/overview.jsp?pcid=2244&pvid=1603_1

I don't recall all the details, but there is an SBS specific doubletake application that will "recreate" the SBS install on the remote system.

Thanks Jeff. I agree many of the options here are outweighed by cost. I already have an additional server, which may lead me to add it as a secondary DC, in case of an emergency. I am concerned about the mail aspect of this however. In addition to the fact my organization requires email, we have several systems on the web that require relay through our systems. I am closely weighing the options, and wondering if I should not find another solution for a backup for email rather than adding another Exchange server, which doesn't sound possible, or effecient within an SBS network.

If this were a larger envirnment I would have a fail over node, but that just isn't in our budget.

Not that it helps to restore your existing mail, but a method I often use to assure you do not loose mail during a down time is a back up MX service, such as provided by www.no-ip.com for about $30/year. This allows you to create a second MX record and they will hold all mail that is not delivered to your primary MX record for up up 7 days. As soon as your server (primary MX records back on line it automatically delivers the mail. Should you or your town have a disaster ,7 days gives you enough time to put an alternate solution in place, and even change the primary MX record if necessary. Pretty cheap investment.

That is a great idea RobWill. I'm going to look into that.

About the second DC I'm thinking of putting up. How long can it go without SBS attached before having problems, and is there difference in the relation ship between it and the SBS server than say a normal DC? Obviously the operation roles have to stay with SBS which is fine, but in the event that I can't replace or fix the SBS server within 7 days, I would assume it would be able to stay up indefinitely and have users created on it, but maybe not since Exchange mailboxes would be unable to be created. I would assume either it would fail to create the mailbox, or I couldn't create a user at all.

Yes, definitely for a remote site connected by VPN... I agree with that, but didn't think this was the scenario here.

And I fully agree with Rob's point about Internet access.  The fact is that of all the SBS's I've managed or been involved with over the past few years (well over 150 of them), none of them have gone down for more than an hour.  Just make sure you use the built-in monitoring and review the daily reports, and have the service alerts sent to an email address you can see right away (such as your cell phone's text message address).

Jeff
TechSoEasy

And if your a small stock broker or in some other financial industry where 15 minutes of downtime can cost you THOUSANDS of dollars, do you still think being down an hour is acceptable.  I don't use doubletake myself... but my point before - to clarify it - you need to determine the COST of an outage to the business... even a one hour outage... if one hour could cost you more than the Doubletake software (or similar product), then I don't see why you wouldn't do this... MOST businesses won't need it... but if you believe you do, economically, then it IS an affordable option.

Thanks guys. All the feed back was great. I think at this point I'm going to need to ensure I have good backups. In the event that SBS goes kaboom for good, if I needed to could I buy a new DC/Exchange server non SBS and restore the mail store/mailboxes to it maybe even the AD db? I'm going to assume the answer would be no for AD, and no for the Store, but I would expect I could restore the mailboxes one by one to a new user that I created on the new server. If it were another SBS 2003 server I wouldn't have a problem other than running some repairs on the Exchange Store. That I've done before, and it works but usually fails to mount the first time.

As for the swing migration that I was referring to I asked my friend and he said that installing a SBS server without the SBS components is not illegal, Microsoft only allows you to run SBS in non SBS mode for a short period of time. One of the intended purposes from what I'm being told is the immediate migration from one SBS server to another. Once you replicate the server AD DB you install the SBS components and go. From what I'm told.

http://www.sbsmigration.com/

I'm quite aware of the Swing Migration method, but it can't be used as a backup solution.  

Regarding your comment, "if I needed to could I buy a new DC/Exchange server non SBS and restore the mail store/mailboxes to it":

You can certainly have another DC, but it would take you significantly longer to install Exchange on it and restore the mailboxes than it would to just restore your SBS.  I don't quite understand why you aren't getting this concept?

Jeff
TechSoEasy

Jeff, I get it. I'm not saying I'm going to purchase another server and restore mailboxes to it. I'm just asking if an SBS store would work on a non SBS server like Server 2003 Standard with Exchange 2003 Standard. The same question goes for AD.

I'm not one to get annoyed easily, but considering you think "I don't get it" if you had read my last post you would have read "I think at this point I'm going to need to ensure I have good backups." I already agreed with you, don't be a jerk.

I'm not trying to be a jerk... but your question still doesn't make sense.  I just cant visualize the scenario you are trying to suggest.

Can you please explain why you would want to restore to a standard Server 2003 rather than to SBS?

Jeff
TechSoEasy

Well I have a few servers. If I had a failed raid controller, I would have to order one. That can be over nighted, but let's assume worst case scenario for some reason I won't get it within 1day. So I could make a virtual server and make it a DC, and an Exchange server and to keep both mail flowing, and service (short term) client request.

I'm not saying I would do it, I'd be pretty hard pressed to find some where local to get the parts I need, which I'm sure I could do in a pinch. What I'm asking rather is can it be done, rather that should it be done. I don't think I pushed that point enough. It doesn't seem cost efficient to do any other solution but fix the SBS server, and restore. I'm just trying to figure out if there are any limitations to the AD DB or the Exchange DB that would prevent me from doing so if it was the only immediate resolution. Who knows, the part I need for the server maybe discontinued, and I may have to purchase a new server all together, or maybe the entire building crumbled.

"So I could make a virtual server and make it a DC, and an Exchange server and to keep both mail flowing, and service (short term) client request."

If you are going to do that, why wouldn't you just install SBS and restore your backup to it?  SBS can run as a virtual machine.  It takes less time to install SBS and all it's components than it does to install Windows Server 2003 + Exchange 2003, and you would have a really tough time restoring your backup to that anyhow.

You don't have to restore your SBS backup to the same server, it is just a bit more difficult if it's not the same.  But as I mentioned in my first post, if you want to be sure that you can easily restore your backup to different hardware, you should use Acronis True Image instead of the built-in NTBackup.  

SBS doesn't have any particular limitations to the AD DB or Exchange DB that make them unique from any other Windows Server 2003.  But restoring them to a newly installed server is going to be a headache no matter what.  That's why you are best off restoring your full backup to the same OS configuration you had to begin with.

Jeff
TechSoEasy

If you are going to do that, why wouldn't you just install SBS and restore your backup to it?  SBS can run as a virtual machine.  It takes less time to install SBS and all it's components than it does to install Windows Server 2003 + Exchange 2003, and you would have a really tough time restoring your backup to that anyhow.

Granted it would make sense to do that, but we purchase with Dell. This means I can't take the Dell OEM disk and virtualize it because it won't pass the bios check. It isn't a Microsoft OEM version so there is no key. I'm not saying that I would do it, I'm just asking if it were possible. I do have a Microsoft OEM Server Standard, and an Exchange Standard license somewhere, which sparked the question to begin with.

As for restoring Exchange from one SBS server to another I've never really had any problems doing that. I mean most of the restores I've done of SBS (not many) we get a new server, install server, SBS components, keep the naming convention the same, if you are doing a new IP scheme you much export the users from AD from the old server, or manually create them. Then restoring the Exchange DB is easy, from my experience. Maybe I've been lucky but usually the first time you attempt to start an Exchange DB from an old server, on a new server it fails, the second it works. If the mail store has problem you have to run some repair tools, but all in all it has always been fairly quick and easy. Of course this was SBS to SBS.

You don't have to restore your SBS backup to the same server, it is just a bit more difficult if it's not the same.  But as I mentioned in my first post, if you want to be sure that you can easily restore your backup to different hardware, you should use Acronis True Image instead of the built-in NTBackup.  

We use Backup Exec here, and the way I've restored SBS servers in the past was to install SBS, and restore AD, Exchange, etc. Total time under 12 hours including setting up the hardware. Granted its not as 1, 2, 3 as Acronis, but this is the system in place. I'm looking into imaging software now as a possible failsafe just incase.

True that you can't use Dell OEM disks on a non-Dell machine... but you can virtualize them on another Dell Server.  But I guess that's why I keep a copy of the trial version of SBS around, because it would work to restore the server temporarily... until you were able to get your original machine fixed.

12 hours to restore your backup though is a bit outrageous.  With the built-in SBS NTBackup, it shouldn't take more than about an hour and a half to install the OS, then it shouldn't take more than about 2 hours more to restore an average 40GB backup.

I never understand why people use Backup Exec on SBS.  What does it do for you that the built-in backup doesn't?

Jeff
TechSoEasy

NT Backup doesn't allow for Exchange Backup, and Mailbox restore? How about SQL? NT Backup can't backup a SQL DB unless it's stopped. It has been sooo long since I've used NT Backup, but I remember it being great for files, bad for databases.

I say 12 hours because I don't know what the situation is going to be. I have Backup Exec for SBS so it allows me to boot to a resto disk, but assuming the server is dead, I wouldn't want to just image the server back. So I would reinstall SBS, and then resto AD, Exchange, etc. Having built a new server, restored everything, tested, etc I think 12 hours is a worth while ammount of time. Remember it's SBS, so one thing doesn't work or gets over looked it hurts you bad. If this was a 300 server network I would only have to replace/fix the server and services the server is required to handle.

More on Backup Exec, it also allows me to backup other systems to the tape, where as NT Backup doesn't. I have several systems which the SBS server is required to backup. I need agents for those, because of what it is backing up.

""NT Backup doesn't allow for Exchange Backup, and Mailbox restore? How about SQL? NT Backup can't backup a SQL DB unless it's stopped. It has been sooo long since I've used NT Backup, but I remember it being great for files, bad for databases."

SBS's built-in backup, which uses NTBackup absolutely backs up Exchange.  It doesn't do "brick-level" backups of mailboxes, but to be honest, those are rarely necessary.  You can always mount a recovery store (from the standard full backup made by NTBackup) to recover a full mailbox if needed."

So what you are saying there is it will backup the Exchange store as a whole because it doesn't do brick level? Then if a user's individual mailbox gets hammered I have to restore the entire store, mount the store, and recover the mailbox? This is a bit confusing becuase my understanding is that SBS can only mount one store at a time, as it is a built in limit to SBS with Exchange.

""Remember it's SBS, so one thing doesn't work or gets over looked it hurts you bad. "

You don't have to remind me that its SBS... I only work with SBS.  When you use NTBackup, there is no separate restoration of AD, Exchange, etc.  You simply install the OS, apply any Service Packs that were previously on the server, and then restore the backup file in one simple operation.  

I would agree that you cannot back up other systems from the SBS easily, but since I try to keep small business networks configured as simply as possible by doing things such as redirecting My Documents folders to the server so they are included in the backup.  If there are other servers on the network, they could run NTBackup themselves with the backup file going to the SBS, which would then be included in the SBS's backup task."

I guess in your store method you are reinstalling the OS, and restoring the system state along with the entire backup folder tree?

I can't make this network as simple as possible. Unfortunetly the network is small, but requires some complexity. For instance my network consist of Windows and Mac systems. I also have a few servers, and there is little or no space on the SBS server for user folders. There is room within the SBS server, but because of the size of many of the user folders it won't fit on SBS. For that reason we have a second server, which the folder structure must be created manually.

As far as backing up a server with NTBackup, and then storing it on SBS, to then back it up with NTBackup that makes me a bit nervous. The idea of archiving an archive is a bit scary in general. I know it is likely due to NTBackup versions but I had a problem once with a similar issue where a backup was backed up on a SBS 2000 system, and then attempted to be restored to a SBS 2003 server. It was an accounting DB, and it was needed to be looked at by a cfo but the backup was unable to be extracted. The server was set to be wiped that day, so I had to run down and grab a copy of just that on a flash drive. The backup was able to be restored, but for some reason a backup of that backup wasn't able to. Maybe there is another issue there that I didn't have a chance to investigate, but it still makes me nervous.

Since you do only SBS networks though, what do you do for Anti-Virus? As a side note I mean.

"This is a bit confusing becuase my understanding is that SBS can only mount one store at a time, as it is a built in limit to SBS with Exchange."

Please review "How to use Recovery Storage Groups in Exchange Server 2003":
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/824126
and on TechNet:  http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa998782.aspx

If you are still uncomfortable with NTBackup, then I would go back to my FIRST recommendation of using Acronis True Image:  http://www.acronis.com/smb/products/ATISBS/   It would provide significantly better backups that are simple and quick to restore.  

Regarding AV?  I always use Trend Micro's Worry-Free Business Security Advanced (http://us.trendmicro.com/us/products/sb/worry-free-business-security/)  If you have further questions about that, please post it separately.

Jeff
TechSoEasy