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Why has our network slowed down?

Hi, ever since installing a BT router I have had continouos complaints about the network slowing down considerably. People can logon no problems as this has been resolved in an earlier post, where there were problems with DHCP etc. However, my client uses Sage and a program called orderwise and I am being told that the program orderwise just bails out completely even though its connected fine to the network as I check each time and the drives are still mapped etc. Sage is also really slow at opening reports, viewing cust records etc. I now know that there is some problem on the network but after sorting previous issues out see https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/23768232/If-DHCP-is-enabled-on-the-router-and-server-will-it-cause-a-slow-network.html. the server seems completely stable and I am stumped as to what is going on here. I have transferred the Sage data as a test to the local machine and all works as it should, really responsive and quick to open records etc.

I am sure something is not right here but not sure what.

Ihave even tried manually configuring a clients IP address but get the same result.

I have been told that ever since the BT router went in is where the problems started,

Thanks
Chris
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ormerodrutter
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Have you rerun the CEIEW after you installed the BT router. Make sure your ISP's DNS server only presents as a Forwarders and NOT as the primary DNS server. Your primary DNS server MUST be your SBS.

SAGE reporting is usually slow across network. It is hard to guess whats in your SAGE report but check out any DNS problem first before tackling individual software.
Avatar of Jeffrey Kane - TechSoEasy
What speed NICs and Switches are on your network?  Are they 10/100 or Gigabit?  That can have a lot of effect on whether or not things are fast, especially with a data-intensive program like Sage.

Jeff
TechSoEasy
FYI, you don't need to use the BT Router.  You can instead configure it in Briged mode and put a router of your choice between your server and it to provide your firewall.

Jeff
TechSoEasy
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wireless24

ASKER

Hi, If I am to go back through the ceicw. please will you advise on this screenshot? cheers

Do I nned to assign an IP address? using BT broadband.

Thanks again
Chris
sjaconfig.jpg
should it be 192.168.0.254 as ip address and gateway?

255.255.255.0 subnet.

cheers
Using routers between servers can cause problems if they have NAT or firewalls enabled. Please check this.
A home grade (or even small business grade) router will kill your network throughput. Use switches when you can and avoid ever putting routers inside your LAN - only use them to connect to the internet.
For example a Linksys RVS4000 Gigabit business series security router will only allow 8 MB/s of LAN throughput! This is absolutely terrible. And Linksys usually has good hardware specs compared to other vendors too.
Hi, please see attahced files for info.
router1.jpg
HI, can I still use the current router and how? I only want to use it for Internet access, we have a switch for the LAN.

Cheers
Chris
router2.jpg
router-address-allocation.jpg
firewall-settings.jpg
They are 100MB NICS for reference cheers
Can I configure the router for just internet access?

Cheers
Chris
Oh geez - your using a 2Wire DSL modem or cable modem/router combo aren't you? Those things are terrible. I highly recommend you get a better router/firewall. 2Wire devices are a joke and they're a pain to setup - not to mention if something goes wrong then it's almost impossible to troubleshoot.
Can you please post a little drawing of how your network is setup (include all switches routers and PCs if you can.
I think we have a belkin N1 Wireless Router would that be ok?

I know what you mean about this router its killed everything i am sure!

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=275346

See attahced sorry abt the drawing lol off memory i think this is how its configured.



network.jpg
That router should be okay I suppose. I guess 2Wires are just rebranded Belkins because the setup pages look the same.
You should have no trouble at all with the network the way it is. is the switch 10/100 too? Is it the LAN between computers that's going slow or the internet?
hi, yeh the switch is 10/100mb as well.  Its the LAN that is going slow. The internet seems ok.  but logging on to the server etc seems ok too. general connectivity seems fine apart from the sage program, which i have moved locally now. the other program is somewhat dodgt with loss of connectivity sometimes but can still access the server when it happens.

with regards to the attached file will it make a difference going through the ceicw will make a difference?

If I do go through the wizard, what should I put as ip subnet and gateway etc as seen on the attached image,?
Thanks,
Chris
sjaconfig.jpg
Okay... lets slow down a bit...
First... let's make sure that we understand your actual network configuration.  You have a Single NIC in your server.  So that should be connected to the SWITCH the same way that the PC's are connected.
I'd also suggest that you use 192.168.16.1 as the LAN IP address for your router, and use 192.168.16.2 for the IP address of your server.  SBS's routing configuration doesn't really like the router to have a higher IP address.  So change the LAN IP on your Router first, then run the Change Server IP Address Wizard on the SBS to change it for the server.
Then... you shouldn't have the router providing DHCP for your network.  This should be handled by your SBS.  And your Workstations shouldn't have static IP's.  Let them get their IP and other network settings automatically from the SBS.  To move DHCP back to your SBS, please see the bottom half of this page:  http://sbsurl.com/dhcp
 When everything is configured correctly, that screen in the CEICW should auto-populate.  You shouldn't have to enter anything.  But for the record, if you changed the IP addresses as suggested above, it would be as follows:
IP Address:  192.168.16.2
Subnet Mask:  255.255.255.0
Gateway:  192.168.16.1
A visual how-to for the CEICW is at http://sbsurl.com/ceicw and don't hesitate to click on the "More Information" button on any of the CEICW's screens for good help and documentation.
Jeff
TechSoEasy
Not quite accurate: Workstations can have static IPs just fine as long as they don't conflict with the DHCP scope setup in SBS.
Back to the speed issue - It sounds like your switch might be bad. Is there any way you can confirm that ports are for sure running at 100Mbps/Full Duplex? When you're using a switch and all computers are locally attached, traffic doesn't go "through" the router at all - it stays in the switch.
Is this an old switch? What make and model? HW version?
For experts who might digress about the router not being touched by traffic: Yes the router's in the same broadcast domain, but the router adds no latency since packets are routed directly across the switch.
 
 
Hi.

The swicth is working ok.  All he problems started when the BT router went in.

Should I go with chnging to a draytek or something? If I configure ityour way techsoeasy, will this actually make a difference?

Cheers
Chris
Okay then... is there any way to try another router? I've never heard of draytek but I suppose you could try it.
As far as TechSoEasy's info goes, SBS does tend to act a bit squirrely with the CEICW when the default GW is higher than the IP address. Other than that it doesn't matter too much. Usually the GW is the lowest number possible (usually 1). You can make your server's IP whatever you want as long as it doesn't conflict with the DHCP pool on the subnet. You can leave either your router or you SBS server as the DHCP server - it doesn't really matter as long as they're both not on. I do recommend using SBS though. It has more features and is more manageable.
CONSIDER THIS THOUGH BEFORE CHANGING SERVER IP: If you have an Active Directory domain controller setup on the SBS server, changing its IP address can break AD. If you do have this setup, I recommend you do not change the server IP - work around it and configure the network around it since this is a small network and the server is already installed.
Also, just so you know - the CEICW is a joke. :-)
Hi,

the only other router I do have is the belikin N1. The last thing I do want to do is break AD. SBS is giving out ip addresses I have checked in the leases and I have also disabled the DHCP on the router as this was enabled before.  the draytek website http://www.draytek.co.uk/ should show more   about this product. alternatively if you have any suggestions on a decent router/swicth for BT broadband suggestions welcome :o)  or what about http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?origin=gbase29.4&prodID=1059647. Do you really think its necessary to change router? from your comment on the Belkin I trust that its not a great brand? I trust your judgement on this.

Cheers

there really werent any problems before the BT router so I am thiking perhaps it cant handle the traffic and the configuration of the server has never changed apart from replacement of BT router
Any router will work with any ISP's internet connection as long as it has a compatible interface.
I don't know about Draytek, but Cisco is the biggest and most widely accepted router in the world for businesses.
I HIGHLY recommend the Cisco 851 that you have there in your second link. It is a great router that I've deployed at many small businesses and high-end home offices. Don't let the size and cost fool you - it's got all the routing features and protocols that the big routers have.
I recommend the 851 over the 857 EVEN IF YOU HAVE DSL because if you change ISPs or even switch from DSL to something else, you still have a normal fast ethernet interface to plug a cable modem or anything else into.
Here is a link to Cisco's data sheet for the 850 series:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/routers/ps380/ps6195/product_data_sheet0900aecd8028a9a9.html
Here are some part numbers for you:
CISCO851-K9 - Cisco 851 Ethernet to Ethernet Router
CISCO851W-G-E-K9 - Cisco 851 Ethernet to Ethernet Wireless Router; Europe
Whether you get the wireless or not it's up to you. That is the one specifically for Europe and the UK's radio laws. The wireless version takes a bit more configuration than the wired one.
THE BOTTOM LINE: Go with Cisco if you can afford it. Be prepared to take some time to configure it (maybe several hours for someone who hasn't used Cisco before) as it is not a simple device. Be prepared to be confused if you haven't configured a Cisco router before. Luckily, EE is here to help. But remember: it IS the most powerful and flexible device available in that price range. Once you set one of these babies up they run forever - no rebooting, no instability - and if the network is going slow or the internet goes off, you know it isn't the router.
Cheers! Let me know if you need more info!
 
is the 851 - ADSL? its just that in the specs it specifies adsl on the 857?

Cheers
Changing the IP address on the SBS server will NOT break AD. All you need to do is, if you are using static IP go around each client and change DNS server IP; or if you are using DHCP simply change the scoope options and ask your clients to renew their IP addresses (reboot will do). And thats one of the reason you should use DHCP instead of static IP!!

DHCP also records which IP address belongs to which workstation, thus simplify your trouble shooting process when you need to pin down one particular PC in your entire network. So if you insist on using static IP thats fine but make sure you have a spreadsheet recording the IP info (i.e. IP vs Workstations).

Running DHCP on server is much better than running it on router. One adventage is that it updates DHCP client info on DNS - which is vital when you browse for network resources.


851 is Fast Ethernet (CAT5/RJ-45). ADSL is 857. Always get the 851 when you can because you can just use an ADSL modem or a cable modem, or a whatever modem - if you get the ADSL model you're stuck with ADSL.
Cheers back!
Changing the IP will not break AD as a whole, however certain features rely on the static IP address that was entered during DCPROMO and will break when changing IP.
SBS DHCP records these addresses for the lease time - 1 week I think is the default. After that it loses them or they are renewed if they are still connected.
As I said - DHCP on SBS is much better. And the DHCP-DNS integration is nice too.
wireless24 - you do have your clients setup to use the IP address of the SBS server as their DNS server right?
"certain features rely on the static IP address that was entered during DCPROMO and will break when changing IP." ????? What are they?

Let me clarify - servers should always use static IP but clients are recommended to be DHCP.

I think the default lease time is 8 days. it doesn't matter if clients change their IP addresses because you can always browse network resources using computer names - and thats why its important to use DHCP on the server (which updates DNS records).
Pugglewuggle - yes thats right, all the client machines get their ip/dns settings from the servers dhcp. I dont use the dhcp on the router at all.

I dont mind that we have to keep adsl if it does the job.

I just dont know which way to go with this. Do I purchase router, will that stop the problems with some of the slowness users are experiencing on the network with certain programs and resources used over the network?

Cheers
Pugglewuggle...
"CONSIDER THIS THOUGH BEFORE CHANGING SERVER IP: If you have an Active Directory domain controller setup on the SBS server, changing its IP address can break AD. If you do have this setup, I recommend you do not change the server IP - work around it and configure the network around it since this is a small network and the server is already installed."
This comment actually shows that you may never have worked with an SBS before.  You can ONLY have an Active Directory domain controller setup on the SBS.  That is the ONLY way it can be configured.
Then... there are a number of things which must be changed when you change the IP address on a DC.  That is why SBS includes a wizard which changes everything correctly.  See http://sbsurl.com/changeip for details.
Now, back to the question at hand...
wireless24... before you go out and buy anything, I would highly suggest that you follow the steps I outlined in http:#22609975 because I believe that may be a big help to you.  If after you make those changes there is still a slowdown, you need to analyze where it's happening.  You can use Network Monitor 3.2 to do that for you:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=f4db40af-1e08-4a21-a26b-ec2f4dc4190d&DisplayLang=en
It would otherwise be a complete guess as to whether or not installing a new router would resolve your problems.    
Regarding Pugglewuggle's other comment, "Not quite accurate: Workstations can have static IPs just fine as long as they don't conflict with the DHCP scope setup in SBS".  I would say that absolutely they can have static IP's, but there is no good reason to do so and every reason to use DHCP.  Primarily because they need to get the other networking settings.
So, please get your network configured properly first... then and only then will you know if the hardware is causing a problem or not.  Just because the issues started happening after the BT router was put in place doesn't prove that its the router's fault until you make sure that your network configuration isn't just causing a conflict.  Now, to be honest, the 2-wire device isn't really designed for business use and I don't like them at all.  But complete one step at a time and you'll end up much happier!
Jeff
TechSoEasy  
Just to add little more into the mix, Sage advise a gigabit network where possible.
This would mean using a gigabit throughput switch, and updating all NIC's (especially that on the server) to gigabit.

Also we are using a Draytek router (Vigor 2820n) and for the money is very robust (although clearly not in the same class as Cisco if your budget allows).
As has already been mentioned this is purely for internet access and no local area traffic flows through it (although it does have a gigabit port).

I would be surpised though that replacing the router is necessary, as everything should go through the switch (and thus everything plugged into the switch).
i.e. server, workstations and ethernet cable from router.
And under no circumstances should the server be wireless - this should be hardwired with at least CAT5e cable.

On the subject of wireless this can also slow the whole network down regarding access of Sage too if the wireless client is running any data intensive tasks on Sage.
Have you tried running the system without the router connected into the network - say for about an hour or so?
Clearly, this means no internet access for that time - but this will identify if the problems are caused by the router.

One bad NIC on a network can have an impact on the network causing slowdowns (and possibly this could be the case with the router).
Hi,

Thats a good point.

I havent tried this yet but I could do there's no harm in trying.

unfortunately I cannot do it during the day as the company in question are stable at the moment funily enough and not reporting any problems.

One other question. They have a company who backs up their data online and have a feeling it has been running at some obscure times during the day. I know that they have only just started using this company so the data won't be fuly backed up yet. could this have a significant impact on the network speed?

Cheers

Well, running an off-site backup during the day most definitely can impact performance unless the backup is just incremental, in which case the first few days would have been bad, but after that it would be minimal.
Jeff
TechSoEasy
 
Yes - the offsite backup will kill the internet speed if it's not using something like RDC or BITS equivalent. Try to run backups afterhours.
Regarding keeping DSL - that's just fine! Just plug your current DSL modem into the Cisc 851. With the 857 it actually has jack for a phone line - the DSL plugs right into it instead of into a modem. That means IF you ever do change from DSL that you can't use anything else if you get the 857
And a gigabit switch is recommended if you can afford that and gigabit NICs for all the computers you want to run at gigabit speeds. Linksys makes some good inexpensive small business gigabit switches.
I don't know how sage works, but just having a client on wireless won't slow your network down. Why would the server treat a client on one medium differently than one on another?
As far as static addressing goes - that's up to you. Many small companies use static addresses if they only have a few computers so employees can easily access them with RDP when connecting remotely. In big companies DHCP is always the answer because maintaining static IP addressess for all the machines would be a headache like no other. Since you have a DNS server built into SBS, there is no reason not to use DHCP - just query the machines by DNS name.
If you have any more questions just let me know! Cheers!
"Many small companies use static addresses if they only have a few computers so employees can easily access them with RDP when connecting remotely"

Again, Pubblewuggle... I suggest that you review how an SBS-based environment works.  With SBS you have Remote Web Workplace so that users don't need to know an IP Address for RDP.  See http://sbsurl.com/rww for details.

Jeff
TechSoEasy
Again, I know that.
I was referring to how businesses do it that don't have SBS or a DNS server OR they don't use RWW. It is then required they have static IPs on their local PCs when accessing them over VPN. Please read what I write before posting. Also in response to your previous post: I know very well how SBS works. What I meant is "if you use AD". Some smaller customers buy an SBS server and then don't use Exchange, AD, or anything other than DHCP and the file server (and sometimes DNS). I don't understand why they do this, but some don't and I had to take into account the fact that the asker might be doing the same thing. Not a good practice nor is it optimal, but some do it anyways. And with regard to IP changing - I assumed that this type of user that doesn't know about AD wouldn't care to properly migrate the addresses with the included tool. Now that we know the asker does use AD, these doubts have been nullified.
:) Not being a pain, just letting you know.
Any other questions wireless24?
>>"I don't know how sage works, but just having a client on wireless won't slow your network down."<<

With regard to accessing Sage over a network (as I said in my post), using wireless will almost certainly cause slow downs for other users.

The data is held on the server and as clients access the data, if processing, they will lock the files they are using.
If clients are running reports or any other intensive operations (like batch posting invoices etc), all others users may well be locked out of Sage until the processing task is complete.
These kinds of operations access many different files (customer records, stock records etc).

On wireless, this is way, way slower than a gigabit hardwire.

Please note - this was stated as addendum advice and not necessarily a solution to the general network problem.

As I said nick, I don't know about sage. From a networking standpoint a wireless client won't slow down the network. But if it locks the files as you say, then it most certainly will slow the operation of sage on all other clients - not any other applications or functions.
And yes wireless is slower. Much slower. :-)
" I assumed that this type of user that doesn't know about AD wouldn't care to properly migrate the addresses with the included tool"

Since SBS cannot even run without AD, making that assumption is a bit far fetched.  

Jeff
TechSoEasy
Arrgghhh... Just because it can't run without it doesn't mean the company uses it. I've seen several instances in which the company never migrated over to AD and in fact refused to... the never used Exchange or GP...
Perhaps it was farfetched to make that assumption in this case, but it never hurts to check - so we don't waste time trying to figure out why an AD-integrated function isn't working when it's not even being used.
 :)
But you can't refuse to use AD.  Nor can you have a functioning SBS 2003 that doesn't have AD-integrated DNS.  It just isn't possible.

Jeff
TechSoEasy
That is right - you CANNOT refuse to install AD on an SBS server - HOWEVER, client machines do not have to join the domain or use any ADDS related services whatsoever.
That is what I meant. Stop picking at it.
Hi I am currently configuring the router cisco 857 as we needed to upgrade anyway. Plus Gigabit switches and cards for PC's.

one quick question - what is internet(WAN) - advanced options - in the cisco router setup?  it says (there is no default route configured on the router. A default router ensures that outgiong traffic will always be sent to another router on the network. Then it has a tick inside Create default route with a dot in the radio button that says (use this interface as forwarding interface) or you can choose the option of next Hop IP address,  then (if your ISPhas given you a next hop IP address enter it here. any ideas what i need to put?

or do i leave it and press next?
Cheers
also do I enable NAT on the router as its used in the server is it not?

Cheers
Chris
and if I enable NAT it asks me for private and public IP addresses.
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Jeffrey Kane - TechSoEasy
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Also, make sure that DHCP is disabled on the router because it will break the SBS's DHCP if you don't disable it.

Jeff
TechSoEasy
As far as the default route goes, that is what gets you on the internet. You need to run the following command in command line mode:
ip route 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 <your isp default gateway> 1
Replace the < ... > with the right number and that will get you online!
Cheers! Let me know if you have any questions!
As far as NAT goes - if you plan on having multiple computers connect to the internet through the router that are not servers then you need to configure it.
Let me know!
Cheers!
Jeff:
I'd also suggest that you use 192.168.16.1 as the LAN IP address for your router, and use 192.168.16.2 for the IP address of your server.  SBS's routing configuration doesn't really like the router to have a higher IP address.  So change the LAN IP on your Router first, then run the Change Server IP Address Wizard on the SBS to change it for the server.

Then... you shouldn't have the router providing DHCP for your network.  This should be handled by your SBS.  And your Workstations shouldn't have static IP's.  Let them get their IP and other network settings automatically from the SBS.  To move DHCP back to your SBS, please see the bottom half of this page:  http://sbsurl.com/dhcp

When everything is configured correctly, that screen in the CEICW should auto-populate.  You shouldn't have to enter anything.  But for the record, if you changed the IP addresses as suggested above, it would be as follows:

IP Address:  192.168.16.2

Subnet Mask:  255.255.255.0

Gateway:  192.168.16.1

A visual how-to for the CEICW is at http://sbsurl.com/ceicw and don't hesitate to click on the "More Information" button on any of the CEICW's screens for good help and documentation.

Jeff
TechSoEasy

Should I plug the new router in before going through this process?

Cheers
Chris
You should setup and authorize the DHCP scope on your SBS server first. Then, disable DHCP on your router.
Cheers!
pugglewuggle hi,

fo you mean take the other router off the network then change the scope then add new router?
Then do CEICW?

just need a few guides on doing this

Thanks again!!

Chris
Well, do it in whatever order suites you best.
Start the DHCP server on the SBS if it isn't already on and turn off  the DHCP server on the router.
Then feel free to do the CEICW. Like I said though, the CEICW is just a clunky POS utility... just configure the stuff manually if you know how. If not, then use CEICW.
Any other questions?
Cheers!
Sorry that I hadn't responded.  I was out ill the past week.

Chris, have you resolved this?  The documentation is quite clear about how to do this at http://sbsurl.com/dhcp

What part doesn't make sense?

Jeff
TechSoEasy
hi,

I connected everything ok just cannot get internet.

its asking me for preferred dns server alternate and local ip address of router on the ceicw.

i have enabled nat on the router disabled dhcp.

is there anything I am missing?

cheers

Chris
I am getting some flashing lights on the rxd and txd where the adsl light is but thats about it.







currently I am getting this error see attached

please  help thanks

Chris
internet-connection-failure.jpg
hi,

I have attached the errors on the devices sdm

please can somebody get back to me asap as I am really struggling getting this on the internet

thanks
chris
WAN troubleshooting report details 
 
 
 
Router Details 
 
Attribute Value 
Router Model  857  
Image Name  c850-advsecurityk9-mz.124-15.T7.bin  
IOS Version  12.4(15)T7  
Hostname  yourname  
 
 
Interface Details 
 
Attribute Value 
Interface  ATM0.5  
IP address  Easy IP  
Description   
 
 
Test Activity Summary 
 
Activity Status 
Checking interface status...  Up  
Checking for DNS settings...  Successful  
Checking interface IP address..  Successful  
Checking exit interface...  Failed  
 
 
Test Activity Details 
 
Activity Status 
Checking interface status...  Up  
    Interface physical status :Up   
    Line protocol status :Up   
Checking for DNS settings...  Successful  
    DNS lookup set :Yes   
    Statically configured DNS servers : 192.168.16.2   
    Dynamically imported DNS servers :None   
Checking interface IP address..  Successful  
    Interface IP address :81.133.238.233   
    Interface IP address Type :Negotiated   
Checking exit interface...  Failed  
    Exit interface found :Vlan1   
 
 
Troubleshooting Results Failure Reason(s) Recommended Action(s) 
 
 To test connectivity, SDM tries to ping the configured DNS servers. However, there is no configured route to any of the DNS servers through the selected interface.  Select 'User-specified' option or add a 'host specific/network specific/default' route through this interface and retest connection.  
 

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We seem to have a bit of miscommunication here.  Everything I've been talking about was regarding configuration of your SERVER, not your router.  (for the most part).  

Your router should NOT have the server's IP address for a DNS Server as that could create a problematic loop.  The router's DNS config should point to your ISP's DNS Server IP's, but since you aren't using the router for DNS anyhow, please focus on getting your SERVER's configuration correct first.

Jeff
TechSoEasy
cheers sorted