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FW Setup with PPPoE

Posted on 2008-10-06
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Last Modified: 2013-12-14
Hi Experts.  I am setting up a NetGear fw to work with a DSL router.  I have setup the PPPoE settings on the fw but still cannot get the internet to work once I make the changes in the wiring closet.  I noticed on the DSL router that there are several options regarding the PPPoE settings (bridge mode, client mode, etc...)

Can someone confirm what those settings are supposed to be please?  Thanks!
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Question by:samiam41
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655175
Here is the option I get on the DSL router.  It is setup as PPPoA but I spoke with the support guys at the ISP and they said I could switch it to PPPoE.  When I make that change, here are the options I get (radio buttons, select one)

Select the PPPoE Configuration:
Client only
Bridge only
with 2684B Connection
with PPPoE Bridge
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by:chilternPC
ID: 22655190
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by:chilternPC
ID: 22655200
it the DSL modem connected to the telephone line?
then the modem should be PPPoA
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Rob Williams earned 500 total points
ID: 22655205
On the DSL router you want to choose bridge mode. This effectively passes all traffic to the next device, the Netgear router. Then on the Netgear you can configure the PPPoE connection using the user name, password and such.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655268
robwill, do I want the dsl modem to create the connection or let the fw do the connection?

also, just to confirm, i want to choose "bridge only" option correct?

chilternPC > thanks for the link to the post.  that was one of my original questions.  :-)

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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22655278
Netgear has to create the connection. I would assume the option disappears when you select bridge.

Usually  you would use Bridge only mode. If it doesn't work though you could try PPPoE Bridge.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655354
what's rfc2684?

Alright, I believe I am close but its like putting together a puzzle.  Which piece goes where.

NAT or NATP on the dsl router?  Also, I don't want to clone the MAC address do I?
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22655429
rfc2684 = request for comment 2684
http://rfc.net/rfc2684.html
Basically the definition of a standard.
Not sure where it should be set. What model DSL unit is it?

You should have the option of bridge or NAT, not both.
No need to clone MAC, unless your ISP supplies IP's based on the MAC address provided. Unusual theses days.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655463
Alright.  Here is where we are.  I have the FW obtaining an IP address from the ISP.  The DSL router is shows there is a connection but at least the FW shows the IP now, not the router.

So, since there has to be communication from the FW to the ISP, I am confused why the network work traffic still can't get out.  I ran a ping against espn (199.181.132.250) and while I get a response when I send it from my laptop which is connected on some poor sap's unsecured WAP, I can't get a response when I send a ping from the FW.  What do you make of that?
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655474
Ugh!  I tried to ping the DNS servers that the ISP provided the FW when the IP address was obtained and they show up as "request timed out"
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655499
tracert shows the same "request timed out".

would that have anything to do with the DNS server and the way it is configured?  I know when the DNS server is turned off, none of the internet traffic gets out.  While the server is on now, could there be some kind of setting that I need to make?

i tried a dns lookup on the fw and it couldn't find the host
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655551
????
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22655587
Sorry, stepped away for a while.
If you are pinging IP's or using tracert and IP's it is unrelated to DNS. DNS is for name resolution and has nothing to do with the ability to connect. Make sure the IP is 'pingable'. Many public IP's such as DNS servers cannot be pinged as a security precaution.

What make and model DSL unit is it?
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655641
gotcha.

speedstream 5200
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655647
i noticed that i could not get to the dsl router's interface (192.168.1.1) from the network once the fw was in place.  shouldn't i be able to?  my novice two cents think there should be a route.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655665
I can ping the DNS server by IP and ping ESPN from my laptop which is connected through someone's WAP.  As for the FW here, it cannot ping the IP of the DNS.  So I am assuming that since I can from my laptop and it is on a different network that the issue lies with the FW.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22655792
I'm outta here.  they are closing up the office and I have to go.

I am trying to come up with a list of things to figure out tomorrow.  Appreciate your help.
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22655929
If working you should still be able to access the speadstream through the Netgear, but the IP could be different. Here they commonly use 192.168.100.1
I'll see what I can dig up on it.
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22658619
According to a couple of documents I read, the speadstream will automatically detect what mode it should be in. Turn on the modem, press the reset button on the modem (clears the existing configurations), wait 3 or 4 minutes and configure the PPPoE connection on the Netgear. It should automatically connect within a couple of minutes. Do not configure anything on the modem.
One example, see the bottom of the following link:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18893043-Speedstream-5200-E242
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by:samiam41
ID: 22661994
Very interesting.  I just read through the link and wanted to make sure I have the steps right.

1.  Reset the modem
2.  When it is finished rebooting, have the NetGear make the connection
3.  Leave the modem as it is.

I spoke with the ISP this morning and asked what else I need to do to make this work.  They mentioned a similar process of resetting the modem so we may be on the right track.  But they also mentioned something else I thought was interesting and relates to what I found out last night.  They recommended using the FW as a DMZ.  Not sure how that would work or even how to configure it but when the rep said that my client was probably using port forwarding and would be easier to configure.  I don't know if that is true or not.

But, I noticed that the modem had several port forwarding rules.  After I did the roll back and removed the FW from the network, I left the port forwarding rules disabled.  The modem made the connection but inbound AND outbound traffic failed.  Just like it did with the FW.  But when I enabled them, the clients could get to the internet sites.  What the h3ll sense does that make?!?  Why would the clients be unable to get to the internet with those port forwarding rules disabled?  Could that be what is missing from making the firewall work?

Let me know what your thoughts are on the DMZ and port forwarding setup please.  Thanks Rob for all of your help.  By the way, the speedstream modem stayed 192.168.1.1.  Wierd I couldn't hit it when the FW is in place.
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by:Rob Williams
Rob Williams earned 500 total points
ID: 22662280
The DMZ is fine, but bridged is better. Keeps the config  very simple by changing the modem form a combined modem/router to a simple modem/

Though I read the "auto-config" instructions in a couple of places, i have never seen one where you do not have to manually change to bridge mode.

The forwarding rules are odd as they are used for incoming traffic, not outgoing like web browsing.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22668323
I haven't forgotten about this post.  I am working on a critical issue elsewhere and will come back to this once the issue is finished.  Thank you for your patience Rob.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22674535
Do you think I should try the port forwarding?  I mean, does that make any sense at all?  Also, there is an AD server that has their DNS set to forward to the ISP's DNS server.  Should I forward that now to the FW or keep it as the ISP's DNS server?
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22674569
Port forwarding has nothing to do with outgoing services such as web browsing.

The server and all PC's, in their network adapter configuration should point ONLY to the server itself. DNS on the server within the DNS management console should be configured under forwarders (not forward lookup zones) to point to the ISP's DNS.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22674679
Rob, I agree with you completely.  I am trying to understand how the "tech" guy before me configured everything.  There are no notes.  Attached is the port forwarding rules I had to enable on the DSL router to allow the computers to get out to the web once I put everything back the way it was.  Honestly, I have no idea why Port 80 is forwarded to that server.  It is the Exchange server but not sure why it needs port 80.
port.forwarding.bmp
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22674742
None of those rules have anything to do with out ging web access they are to allowing incoming services.
ICMP allow WAN pings ( a security risk)
25 incoming mail for a mail server
143 incoming requests for mail from outside clients using IMAP
110 incoming requests for mail from outside clients using POP
3389 remote desktop access to the server from off site
5631/32 incoming connections using PCAnywhere
80 outside access to the web server (a risk if it is also a DC)
1433 usually used for access to SQL server
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by:samiam41
ID: 22680196
This client is going to make me want to be a road builder or clean offices.  How hard can this be?  I have no idea why they would need port 80 directed to that website.  They don't even have an intranet.  PCAnywhere needs to be blocked since they don't even know who needs it anymore.  ICMP should be disabled on the WAN.  I know I set that on the FW.  Wierd.  I am supposed to be onsite again Tuesday for the last time, hopefully.  

By the way, just because this will be my third trip into nowhere land, can you explain a little bit about how to make the NetGear FW into a dmz?  I wanted to have something else to try when I get there if the FW option doesn't work after a couple hours. Thanks Rob.
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by:Rob Williams
Rob Williams earned 500 total points
ID: 22680267
You don't want to use the DMZ of the Netgear, you want to use the DMZ of the modem, assuming it has one, many do not. A DMZ is a reduced security zone (Demilitarized Zone) to which all traffic can be forwarded (no specific forwarding rules required) with no firewall restrictions, other than possibly NAT (depending on the unit). Therefore you connect the WAN port of the Netgear to the modems DMZ and set the Netgear to simple Dynamic or static (private) IP. In this case the modem makes the connection to the ISP, not the Netgear.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22680294
I don't think that model does (speedstream 5200).  But the firewall would still do the filter/monitoring?
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by:Rob Williams
Rob Williams earned 500 total points
ID: 22680393
If the Netgear is in the DMZ of the modem, yes it will still protect the LAN, so long as the physical connection is still to the WAN port of the Netgear.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22680404
Thanks for your patience.  I know those are some dumb or really basic questions but at this point, I want to confirm any doubts I may have.  
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22680724
There are no dumb questions. We all know a little more about some things than others, and as you said, sometimes just nice to confirm an idea or bounce around options.
--Rob
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by:samiam41
ID: 22702764
:-)  I appreciate that.

Alright, here is the latest.  I have the install scheduled for tomorrow at 6pm EST.  I spoke with the ISP support team and they will have a support engineer available by phone during the install.  There is still something I am not sure of and that is not the way I like to approach a project.

Why is the port 80 traffic forwarded to the internal Exchange/DC?

Still not sure why the traffic won't transmit once the FW is in place.  Hopefully the ISP can shed some light on this tomorrow.  I will let you know the results on Wednesday morning.  Thanks for hanging in there with me through this.  
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22702848
>>"Why is the port 80 traffic forwarded to the internal Exchange/DC?"
Only your previous IT fellow can tell you that. It is to host a web server on 192.168.1.10
Proof that you do not need it to get to the internet would be to go to a secure web page using https://  such as a bank site. That uses port 443. You do not have 443 forwarded and I'll bet it works.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22703137
Hahahahaha!!  I bet it does.  

The previous IT guy left after some issue came up between him and the owners.  No one really gave me any details but part of the problem was the former guy didn't documentating anything or letting the owners know what he was doing.  I explained to the owners that not having some of those documents has added some complexity to the fw install.
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22703173
Yes always document !!!! as if you will not be there tomorrow.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22716906
Alright, here I am on-site.  I put the FW in place, had it boot up and get the IP.  Still not working.

<FW> ---------- <DSL> ----------- <www>
1.3                     1.1                        whatever

I am running a syslog server on the workstation so that I can see the log history from the FW.  What I can tell is that there is traffic coming in.  A lot of it.  But the traffic is not getting out to the DSL box (192.168.1.1).  I checked the router's table and see nothing about that device.  Should I?  I don't understand why traffic won't get out!
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by:samiam41
ID: 22716913
Routing table

Destination Mask Gateway Metric Active
192.168.1.0 255.255.255.0 192.168.1.3 1 Yes
207.246.87.1 255.255.255.255 207.246.87.1 1 Yes
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 207.246.87.221 1 Yes
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by:samiam41
ID: 22716924
Destination          Mask                 Gateway     Metric     Active
192.168.1.0   255.255.255.0       192.168.1.3        1        Yes
207.246.87.1 255.255.255.255    207.246.87.1     1        Yes
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0                             207.246.87.221  1        Yes

Maybe this will be easier to read.  I see the public IP is listed.  I will have to request that be removed later.  Right now, not much I can do.  :- )
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22716934
I assume www = the Internet? i.e. the FW is on the LAN side of the DSL?
The firewall's WAN IP is 192.168.1.3 ? I assume the firewall's LAN IP is not 192.168.1.x? It should be something different like 192.168.0.x

>>"I can tell is that there is traffic coming in."
Internet traffic or LAN traffic. (public or private IP's)?

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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22716954
I assume the routing table is that of the Netgear?
Is 207.246.87.1 the Netgear's public IP and 192.168.1.3 the LAN IP?
207.246.87.221 should be the ISP's gateway, the modem's IP.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22717006
RobWill!!  Glad to see you mate.

The firewall ip is set to 192.168.1.3 (on the lan side)
The dsl modem is set to 192.168.1.1
The public ip of the netgear is 207.246.87.221(wan side) and the gateway should be 207.246.87.1

www is the internet

The firewall sits behind the dsl modem.  The modem is set to bridge mode.  The internet port on the firewall is connected to the only network cable from the cable modem.  The firewall's #1 lan port is plugged into the switch.


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by:samiam41
ID: 22717019
Does the lan side of the dsl modem even matter?  That network port from the modem runs into the internet port on the firewall.

<switch> ------ (192.168.1.3) <firewall> (207.248.87.221) ------ (192.168.1.1) <dsl modem> ------- <internet>
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22717034
>>"The firewall ip is set to 192.168.1.3 (on the lan side)
The dsl modem is set to 192.168.1.1"
Try changing the LAN IP of the netgear to 192.168.100.3  You will also have to change the DHCP range for the LAN (may be automatic), and refresh the client's IPs. I am not sure if it is necessary but you cannot have the same subnet in two different network segments. Segment 1 is the PC and LAN side of the Netgear, segment 2 is the Wan side of the Netgear and the LAN side of the modem. Technically 192.168.1.1 will never be used, but I would still make the changes.

>>"I can tell is that there is traffic coming in."
Internet traffic or LAN traffic. (public or private IP's)?

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by:samiam41
ID: 22717067
Public Ip's coming in.  Several were dropped because they were malicious (another reason I don't want to leave without it being finished).

I will make the change to the fw now.
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22717175
Very odd that your syslog server can see the Netgear and the traffic, and the external traffic is reaching the Netgear but you cannot access the Internet.
Can you access a web page by IP such as Google http://64.233.187.99/
If so, it is just that you have not added the DNS servers to the clients, via DHCP.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22717182
Ohh.....  I get what you are saying.  (starting to at least)

I did something and knocked the internet out for a time there so my apologies for not responding sooner.

So I need to change the Ip's on the LAN side.  I suppose that includes the SQL server and Exchange server?  Two seperate servers.  Can I change the FW and cable modem side instead?
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22717232
>>"Can I change the FE and cable modem side instead?"
Yes sorry, I was thinking it was a small workgroup. The modem is by far the best way to go, but it is not always an option.

Try the Google IP first, the other may not be necessary.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22717382
Check this out.  I have no idea what I did but it worked for a couple of minutes then it stopped.  I checked the syslog server and there are over 2000+ messages per hour coming in.  I am attaching you the log file.  Do you think that the FW is just getting overwhelmed?

Notice that there is traffic from 192.168.x.x going outbound until this wave of SMTP traffic comes in.  I mean a ton of it.  
SyslogCatchAll.txt
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by:samiam41
ID: 22717385
When it was working, I could hit the internet by ip and by name.  Once "the event" happened that caused it to stop working, using the ip or name wouldn't help.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22717396
A couple of those Ip's are listed several times <201.24.70.209>
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by:samiam41
ID: 22717413
I found the section showing the traffic from the local subnet.

The exchange server is 192.168.1.10.  Do a "find" for that IP.  You will see some very interesting things.

TCP(57277)                 Dest IP :117.4.246.198,         Src IP  :192.168.1.10
TCP(11184)                 Dest IP :190.43.168.198,         Src IP  :192.168.1.10
TCP(18119)                 Dest IP :64.21.237.35,         Src IP  :192.168.1.10
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22717460
I am not very good at reading those logs but I would block port 25 for now. Looks to me like you are either being scanned or they are trying to set you up as a mail relay. 201.24.70.209 & 201.80.138.221 are both in Brazil, which can't be good.

Before doing so check the Exchange server's outgoing mail queues and see if there is excessive activity. If so disconnect ASAP.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22717483
Doesn't that seem like a lot of incoming traffic?

Do you think it has anything to do with the inability or inconsistency of the network to function once the FW is in place?  Sort of like the FW is unable to keep up with the amount of traffic?

Any chance the FW could be bad?  I am running wireshark on the network now to see if I can pick up anything odd.  

The exchange outbound queue is empty.
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22717595
>>"Doesn't that seem like a lot of incoming traffic?"
Yes but syslogs are very scary. I believe sometimes we are better off not knowing how often our networks are being hit :-)
Make sure "respond to ping on internet WAN port" is unchecked on the Netgear.

No question if you are being "stormed" it could block Internet access, however, you seem to be OK with the DSL firewall switched on. I have seen networks shut down just due to the volume of incomming spam addressed to ligitimate addresses.

It could be a bad Netgear, but based on what you have been able to detect, I am doubtful. Do you have another Linksys or similar unit you can put in place as a test? That would at least confirm the Modem is correctly configured. I have had several routers over the years not work right out of the box.

>>"The exchange outbound queue is empty."
Good.
It is very common for port 25 to be hit over and over. They try to find incorrectly configured Exchange servers to set up as mail relays.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22717740
Hahahaha!!  That is a good point.  I probably shouldn't have checked that log file.  Too much info can be a bad thing.

Alright, I am wrapping up my third trip with no success.  I can't believe the ISP was so helpless.  The client is pretty p!ssed about it and I am stunned.  Called them five times and left five voicemails with their support team (I honestly think there is only 1 on call).  He helped for a few minutes and when I called him back to let him know what I found, I got his voicemail.  Just awful.

The exchange server was scanned with two different anti-virus products and both didn't find anything.  The wire-shark software also didn't highlight anything malicious (at least not obvious).  I really don't know what to do next.  I have a call into the support team in the morning where I will ask them to dedicate a time to have support for my next attempt.  I will also take the firewall with me and test it out at home.  LOL!!!  Don't be surprised to see a post on setting that up if I run into problems.  I will backup the config now so when I make changes, I don't have to redo it all over.

I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your help and patience with this.  I really hope you will let me send you something as a token of my appreciation and that of my client's.  You have been a huge help and 2000 points doesn't seem to begin to do justice.

With that, I am out.  10:30pm here and I have an hour and a half drive home before getting up at 6am to start the next day.  You know how it is.  Take care and I will be in touch.
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22717786
OK, good luck. Glad to help out anyway I can, but I appreciate you must be getting frustrated.
Good idea to test the Netgear at another site. Let us know how that goes.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22722462
Robwill, the ISP called the customer this morning and stated that the NetGear FVS318 wasn't sturdy enough to handle the network traffic of 14 users, an exchange and sql server.  Does that sound right?  It doesn't to me at all.  One of the other issues they mentioned was their not going to block IP's that are flooding the customer's network.  The ISP has no way to do this.  Again, I am dumbfounded.  I know that an ISP can do this, is it that this company (BlueOne.net) are just too small?  I would be interested in your thoughts.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22722476
Grrr....  they're not their.  Guess I am still a little p!ssed about the ISP.
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by:Rob Williams
ID: 22727250
Sorry I was off site all day.
The Netgear is definitely not a Cisco, but neither is your DSL modem. The Netgear can, and I have done so, easily handle 50 clients, I find it VERY hard to believe the Netgear is not "sturdy enough".

As for blocking IP's I wouldn't be surprised if they actually can do it, but I can understand them not doing so. You could supply them with a list of 50 IP's every day, and then every client could do the same. When they block an IP, they block it for all clients and you might want to accept traffic from an IP that a other client wants to block.
Usually if you want to block specific IP's you would buy a router that allows you to manage that yourself.
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by:samiam41
ID: 22729980
Thanks Rob.  That was the information I was looking for.  I am waiting to hear back from the ISP this morning.

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by:samiam41
ID: 22760170
I am going to bring this question to a close.  The customer mentioned to me that they are beginning to feel like they are caught in the middle of battle between the ISP and myself.  The ISP has stated that they would be willing to take control of the router/firewall and the modem so that it would be no expense to the customer.  Of course I sent the customer a list of questions to ask the ISP like how much is the router going to cost that will be installed, how much control will the customer have, turn-around time to get a new exclusion added and what detail the customer can request on the firewall side (block by IP, block certain ports, allow certain ports, etc..)

I told the customer I would help where ever I could and that they were welcome to choose any support option they felt was best for their company.  I gave them my concerns and supplied to them some pros/cons of their decision.  I'm pretty sure they will choose the ISP which will be a mixed blessing for me but I will be glad to be done with it.  The ISP never provided much help and they were never very helpful.  Awful service and even worse technical knowledge.  Oh well.

RobWill, I can't say thank you enough.  2000 points doesn't even begin to reflect the appreciation I have for the time you sacrified for me on this issue.  You are a very talented Expert and I always learn from your posts.  I know you won't let me but I would be willing to send you something from burbon country here.  Thanks for everything and I look forward to working with you again in the near future.  Take care!
0
 
LVL 9

Author Closing Comment

by:samiam41
ID: 31503659
Take care Rob.

Best regards,
Aaron
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LVL 77

Expert Comment

by:Rob Williams
ID: 22761785
Thanks samiam41, you are very welcome. sorry we couldn't resolve.
There are advantages to having the ISP manage everything as there is no question as to who's problem it is. The one downside as you mentioned is response time for changes.

As for the Bourbon, not necessary or likely even possible with customs (Canada), but if I am ever in the area, I'd be glad to share a drink with you.
Cheers !
--Rob
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