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Network Slowness on Windows only.

We have a mixed mode Network.  Windows NT 4.0 Server, Novell Netware 5.1, Windows 2003 Server.  Ever since I began to change the Subnet mask on our PCs, I began to notice Network slowness.

However the slowness is isolated to only Windows Workstations.  The Netware File Server is unaffected by this network slowness.  What happens is if one tries to access a mapped network drive or open a word/excel document, there is a 12-14 second delay.  Then after that initial attempt, one can open up that mapped drive or any other document within that drive very quickly.

But, the problem comes back after 5 minutes.  Its is only on Windows Servers, NT or 2003 Servers.  I think it must be ties to Active Directory and Authenticating to these different servers.

Anyone any ideas?
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Pkafkas
Asked:
Pkafkas
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2 Solutions
 
Rob WilliamsCommented:
If any of the network adapters are configured with DNS servers other than your own internal, active, DNS servers you will have slow initial name resolution and ver slow logons. Adding something like an ISP's DNS server even as an alternate can cause issues like this. Might that be the case?
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
We have added an alternate DNS Server.  This alternate DNS Server is also a domian controller as well.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
This happens on Windows 200p Pro. Pc's and XP Pro. as well.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
But the alternate DNS Server is an internal DNS Server, not our ISP's DNS Server.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
So long as the second server is a DNS server and properly configured that is fine and should not be an issue at all. If in doubt check its event viewer logs for DNS and/or replication issues.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Is there an Active Directory repair tool?   The Network permissions do work its just takes forever getting to the folders/files teh first time.  The network hardware is fine, it has been tested.  Could it be that one Domain Controller is on a seperate subnet mask from the other?  I was getting around to changing it; but, the problems were happenning before I changed the first one.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
>>"Is there an Active Directory repair tool?"
No.

>>"Could it be that one Domain Controller is on a separate subnet mask from the other?"
Different subnet or subnet mask?
Perhaps it would be best if you posted the results from  ipconfig /all  here, from a problematic PC, for us to review. The same from the local server wold be good as well. It sounds like one of your DNS servers is unreachable.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
One of the DC/DNS servers has a subnet mask 255.255.224.0 .  The other DC/DNS Server is on a 255.255.254.0 subnet mask.  I was planning on going in later on to change the subnet mask on the first DC to be the same as the 2nd DC (255.255.254.0).  But this problem began to be more obvious when I began to change the workstation's subnet mask from 255.255.224.0 to 255.255.254.0 .

I will be happy to do an IPconfig/all for both DC's later on.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Different subnet masks can cause all sorts of unexpected problems. Packets are routed based on their network ID which is a function of their IP and subnet mask. If the subnet masks are different, the devices/computers are part of different networks and cannot communicate. Having said that what makes it more confusing is sometimes it works, resulting in unpredictable results.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I can ping the name of the servers just fine and they resolve the correct ip address as well.  I have not tried accessing the servers from an IP address instead of their names.  I can certainly try that and let you  know how quick/slow the network responds.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
You need to fix the subnet masks. The results are inconclusive if you don't. If it didn't matter we wouldn't need subnet masks.
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sensored2008Commented:
the actuall  problem seems  to be the router configuration is itself not  subnet  is  changed
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sensored2008Commented:
also, I think  you should create Wins  server  for Novell Netware network on the Windows network
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I will change over teh DC to be on the same subnet as the other pc's nad devices on our network.  WE never had a WINS server here, ever since I have been here.  I will keep everyone informed on what happens.
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ChiefITCommented:
There are several things popping up to me at this current time.

~~As Rob was stating, you really don't have a defined path with the different subnet masks.

~~Also I have seen both client protocols in the TCP bindings, (Client for microsoft windows, and client services for netware). My question for you is what type of domain do you have, a netware domain or a Windows domain? I have seen folks move from netware to a Windows domain. They left the client services for netware active and made domain logons anywhere from 5 to 15 minute logons. What happnes is the client first seeks a netware domain controller, then looks for the windows domain controller.

~~Yet, another issue I have seen is the type of authentication protocol you use. This is a mixed domain, so you shouldn't have issues with this.  2003 server, (after SP2), shut the door to backwards compatibility with NTLMhash authentication. Your NT4 machine will use NTLMhash. Some of the problems you might see are failure to authenticate with the Domain controllers, and failure to logon via XP or 2000 boxes. Here is an example of some of these symptoms>
http://www.experts-exchange.com/OS/Microsoft_Operating_Systems/Server/Windows_2003_Active_Directory/Q_23132123.html

~~With that said:
You might want to evaluate the necessity of mixing authentication protocols, different types of domains and different subnet masks all into one pool.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere.  Do not have a fix yet; but, I believe I have identified the casue.  This is what I have discovered.

1.  After putting both DC's on the same subnet, that did not change anything.

2.  Both DC are also the primary and secondar DNS Servers as well.
     a.  192.168.1.39 (Primary DNS Server)
     b.  192.168.1.173 (Seconday DNS Server).
     c.  I will send a copy of the ipconfig/all, in my next message (for both servers)

3.  On multiple PC's, that have seen this slowness problem, if I disconnect the mapped network drives (that use the server names) then re-map the same drives; but, this time I use the Server's IPaddress then the shared folder names) the slowness problem stops to exist.

4.  Even if I check on it 10 minutes later or 1 day later, if I use the mapped network drives (I manually created and set to re-connect at logon) that use the Server's IP address no slowness issues.

5.  The other mapped drives that I did not change to use the server's IP addrersses (in my test environment) instead of their domain name still show slowness problems.  
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
C:\>ipconfig /all

Windows IP Configuration

   Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : earth
   Primary Dns Suffix  . . . . . . . : AD.WCD.ORG
   Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
   IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
   WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
   DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : AD.WCD.ORG
                                       WCD.ORG

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

   Connection-specific DNS Suffix  . :
   Description . . . . . . . . . . . : HP NC3123 Fast Ethernet NIC
   Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-50-8B-B0-86-7A
   DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
   IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.39
   Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.254.0
   Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.25
   DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.39
                                       192.168.1.173

C:\>
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
C:\>ipconfig /all

Windows IP Configuration

   Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : wcdbackup
   Primary Dns Suffix  . . . . . . . : AD.WCD.ORG
   Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
   IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
   WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
   DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : AD.WCD.ORG
                                       WCD.ORG

Ethernet adapter TEAM:

   Connection-specific DNS Suffix  . :
   Description . . . . . . . . . . . : HP Network Team #1
   Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-1C-C4-81-1F-B2
   DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
   IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.173
   Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.254.0
   Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.25
   DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.39
                                       192.168.1.173

C:\>
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Regarding ChiefIT's request to standardize teh network here.

I would like to make this an all Microsoft Shop.  I now that Netware is a rock solid OS; but, Micrsoft is a lot more readily comaptible with a lot of other software programs.  Anyway, This has always been a mixed mode enironment even before I began working here.  

We are planning on upgrading our NT Servers soon (within the next couple of months); but, Netware might be a little bit longer.  We have never seen this slownes sproblems before.  However, the politics of the senior managers are that they really like Netware.  That is the background tha tthey have so it is a bit of a struggle to move on.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
In this cae Netware has proven to work beter network wise than Microsft, for this case.  I am still pushing hard to get Microsft in here for all of our servers.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Sounds like DNS issues. The fact that mapping the drives by IP rather than by name works indicates they were having difficulty locating the DNS server. Rebooting the PC's or running:
ipconfig /release
ipconfig /renew
ipconfig /flushdns
should fix the DNS troubles on the PC's now that you have made the server changes.
Make sure the PC's (and DHCP scope) are also using the same 255.255.254.0
 subnet mask.

If you still have NT servers you may want to also use WINS servers.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
>>"Netware has proven to work beter network wise than Microsft, for this case"
You cannot run a Windows domain without DNS working properly. It is the basis of Active Directory, name resolution, and access to all services.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Still not fixed.  I ran:

ipconfig /displaydns
then
ipconfig /flushdns
then
ipconfig /displaydns again ust to verify taht the dns got flushed.

I then ran:
ipconfig /registerdns

Then did a restart and the same problem is going on.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I have 3 pc's taht are in my test group for this testing.

2 Wiindows XP Pro. (One has - 1.5 GB RAM, the other has 512 MB RAM).
1. Windows 2000 Pro. (1GB RAM).

If I change some drives back to using the IP address the slowness goes away to a reasonable level (1-3 seconds).
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
>>"If I change some drives back to using the IP address the slowness goes away "
Then it must be a name resolution issue somewhere.
If you run Ipconfig /all  on a problematic PC, does it show your DNS servers, and only your DNS servers
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ChiefITCommented:
I wonder if this is slow due to a TCP ACK problem:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/321098

Does your share tree blink at you when accessing shares. That's usually a dead give away.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I was just re-reading my original description and I think I should be more clear.  All of you probably already figured this out.

1.  We have all Windows Workstations at my work.

2.  We have differtn OS's that we use as application servers and file servers.

3.  The file server that is running Netware does not appear to be slow at all.  The Windows Servers appear to be slow form a user's perspective.  Only Windows Servers and all Windows servers:
     a.  Running Windows NT 4.0 .
     b.  Running Windows Server 2003 Sp3.

4.  But if I change the mapped network drives on the workstation clients to use IP addresses instead of the domain name the slowness goes away.
     a.  i.e. change apps on (Jupiter)' (P:).  To read:  apps on (192.168.1.37)' (P).
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sensored2008Commented:
Is your  DNS  on  OS  or on router ??
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I have 2 DNS Servers.  They are both windows 2003 Server Std ed.
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sensored2008Commented:
check if one of them is not  functioning properly
and check domain record on both of them
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Well we have an interesting situation.

As far as the DNS Servers, I believe they are functioning because if I remove a pointer from the reverse lookup zone in the DNS management console, the 1.168.192.in-addr-arpa group.  (We do not use a DHCP server by the way).

Then if I setup a new PC  with the same IP address as the pointer that I just deleted and then join the Domain, after I restart that new PC' IP address and the corresponding pc name show up in the reverse lookup zone.  Additionally it shows up on the secondary DNS as well.  It worked pretty quickly actually.

I also can perform nslookups all day long.  They look correct as well.  I can also ping the correct pc/server names and they resolve to the correct IP addresses.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Ok, here is what we have.

On every PC that we have, if they try to use explorer to get data from a Windows Domain name it is slow (ie server name = Jupiter).  It still works; but, users must wait 10-14 seconds to get their data.  Then they are fine for about 5 minutes and then the slowness happens again.  Same results if one uses the UNC (Start  Run- type \\servername).  

If the same users/PC's use explorer to access the same data; but, this time use the server's IP address, then the slowness goes away (it takes about 2 seconds).  That is it takes 2 seconds to open the drive and then 2 seconds to open a document.  The same results happen if the users put the IP addres sin the UNC (Start  Run- type \\servername).  

If the same users/pc's try to access our Netware file server it is very fast, less than 2 seconds.  

I can do nslookups for IP addresses corresponding to windows servers and pc all day long and they are all correct.

Perhaps I should reboot these servers?
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ChiefITCommented:
How many nodes do you have on the LAN and how many backup browsers do you have. I think I remember you should have a master browser or backup browser for every 32 machines.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Or perhaps take off DNS and re-add it?
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I meant reboot the Windows application and file serves, not the DC's.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
We have about 100 users/PC's.  Not includeing the Switches and outers.  I would guess 245 actives nodes onour LAN.

We do have 1 Primary DNS Server (Earth).
We do have one backup DNS Server (wcdbackup).
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I am not sure what you mean by browser?
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ChiefITCommented:
If you go to the command prompt and type:

Browstat /status

It should give you a list of active browsers. You should have about 5 or 6
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
The following is what my oc gave me for output.

C:\Program Files\Support Tools>Browstat /status
Usage: BROWSTAT Command [Options | /HELP]
Where <Command> is one of:

 ELECT         ( EL) - Force election on remote domain
 GETBLIST      ( GB) - Get backup list for domain
 GETMASTER     ( GM) - Get remote Master Browser name (using NetBIOS)
 GETPDC        ( GP) - Get PDC name (using NetBIOS)
 LISTWFW       (WFW) - List WFW servers that are actually running browser
 STATS         (STS) - Dump browser statistics
 STATUS        (STA) - Display status about a domain
 TICKLE        (TIC) - Force remote master to stop
 VIEW          ( VW) - Remote NetServerEnum to a server or domain on transport
 DUMPNET       ( DN) - Display the list of transports bound to browser
Unknown switch specified
In server (or domain) list displays, the following flags are used:
     W=Workstation, S=Server, SQL=SQLServer, PDC=PrimaryDomainController,
     BDC=BackupDomainController, TS=TimeSource, AFP=AFPServer, NV=Novell,
     MBC=MemberServer, PQ=PrintServer, DL=DialinServer, XN=Xenix,
     NT=Windows NT, WFW=WindowsForWorkgroups, MFPN=MS Netware,
     SS=StandardServer, PBR=PotentialBrowser, BBR=BackupBrowser,
     MBR=MasterBrowser, OSF=OSFServer, VMS=VMSServer, W95=Windows95,
     DFS=DistributedFileSystem, CLUS=NTCluster, DCE=IBM DSS

C:\Program Files\Support Tools>
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I ran it from a Windows XP Pro. machine.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Try
Browstat status
instead
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Also on a problematic PC, under the NIC properties for TCP/IP, advanced, WINS, try enabling "NetBIOS" over TCP/IP. Looks like it is disabled, by your ipconfig's above.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
C:\>browstat status


Status for domain ORION on transport \Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{4CF05307-36D5-4752-B88
2-BFD683377995}
    Browsing is active on domain.
    Master browser name is: EARTH
        Master browser is running build 3790
    3 backup servers retrieved from master EARTH
        \\EARTH
        \\MERCURY
        \\JUPITER
    There are 67 servers in domain ORION on transport \Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{4CF05
307-36D5-4752-B882-BFD683377995}
    There are 3 domains in domain ORION on transport \Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{4CF053
07-36D5-4752-B882-BFD683377995}

C:\>
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I wold like to run a sniffer on this network.  I am still not convinced that teh DNS is the only issue here.

I did try  enabling "NetBIOS" over TCP/IP.  I had 3 test PC's.  

1.  Windows 2000 Pro. already had that enabled.
2.  WIndows Xp Pro. Did not have that enabled so I enabled it.
3.  Windows Xp Pro. Did not have that enabled so I enabled it.

The results were that it made no difference.  Slow when using domain names and faster wirh using IP addresses.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Master browser looks good to me; "Master browser name is: EARTH"

>>"I wold like to run a sniffer on this network"
Keep in mind these only capture traffic on your NIC. If you want to capture other network traffic you need to change your switch to an old style hub, or use a switch that allows port monitoring/mirroring.
Microsoft Network Monitor 2 (new version)
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=f4db40af-1e08-4a21-a26b-ec2f4dc4190d&displaylang=en
Wireshark:
http://www.wireshark.org/
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
This problem is not exclusive to servers.  This happens on workstations as well.  If someone uses the UNC to access a PC (Start - Run - \\PC_Name) it takes about 10-14 seconds (depending how fast you count) to open a browser.

If one uses the IP address of the PC instead of the PC Name (Start - Run - \\IP_Address) then it takes about 2 seconds.  Does this example dispell any active Directory relatiosnhip with this slowness?  Since All of the PC's have 'Domain Users' as adminsitrators on the PC's?  The Network Security permissions still hold and are valid if you access the network via IP address.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
>>"Does this example dispell any active Directory relatiosnhip with this slowness?"
Actually it almost guarantees it is a name resolution issue. Active directory and 2003 domains rely almost entirely on DNS, so that would still be my first suspicion. Alternatively they use NetBIOS but that checks out as well.
As mentioned the most common cause for slow connections is a PC having an external DNS server, such as an ISP, present in their NIC configuration, even as an alternate. We seem to have looked at all DNS issue though.
There are other causes such as miss-matched NIC and switch port speed/duplex settings, but that would not change when using the IP instead of name.

As CheifIT asked earlier, does mapping to FQDN work properly?  \\AD.WCD.ORG\share
On that thought, have you run DCDiag on the server/s? Using a public domain suffix can cause issues if not properly configured.
http://www.computerperformance.co.uk/w2k3/utilities/windows_dcdiag.htm
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
To answer your questions:

"As CheifIT asked earlier, does mapping to FQDN work properly?  \\AD.WCD.ORG\share
On that thought, have you run DCDiag on the server/s? Using a public domain suffix can cause issues if not properly configured"

A: Yes, it does work with the FQDN (meaning \\jupiter\apps instead of \\192.168.1.37\apps).  

However I have not run DCDiag.  I have another idea.  What if I swap out the primary and secondary DNS Serves.  Meaning make Earth the secondary DNS Server(its an old win 2003 server) and make wcdbackup my primary DNS server?  How can I do this?  

Is it just as simple as replacing the IP's in the TCP/IP settings on the client pc's?  If so that did not change anything?  I tried it on 2 of my test pc's and the slowness was still there.  I think there might be something I need to do to make wcdbackup the new primary dns server.  Any thoughts?
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ChiefITCommented:
If working well with FQDN and IP UNC Paths, you have a problem with netbios and WINS. UNC (Universal naming Convention), has the ability to use a couple different protocols to map and access network shares.

\\10.11.12.13\share--  Uses Address Resolution Protocol -- ARP
\\MyComputer.domain.name\share-- is using DNS
\\MyComputer\Share-- is using Netbios and WINS

The browser service looks good. So, it appears like you have some bad WINS records or netbios records that are binding you up.

Much like DNS, if you have some bad records, your access to the shares will be slow.

________________________________________________________________________
So, how to track down WINS, or Netbios records: (To do this, I like to follow the path of the query)
A WINS or netbios query is very similar in structure to a DNS query>

The client will try to resolve the query by itself:
1) The first place a client looks for is a cached entry. (To determine if this is the case, go to the command prompt of the client and type IPconfig /flushdns.) (For WINS cach, type NBTstat -rr)
3) Then if your client doesn't have the cached entry, it will look at the client's C:\Windows\system32\drivers\ect\Host file for resolution. (For WINS, you comptuer looks in the C:\Windows\system32\drivers\ect\LMHOST file(You can look at and edit the host file with word pad. Check and see that there are no entries, except 1.0.0.127 local host file in that file for the HOST file and no entries in LMHOST. These files are used if you don't have a DNS server or WINS server respectively. They can be configured to maintain a list of computers you want to contact via a DNS query or WINS query.)

After the client can't determine its own DNS query it will look at the prefered DNS server: (To determine the prefered DNS server, it will be the first on on the list in an IPconfig /all of the client). (For WINS, it will be the preferred WINS server)
1) The first place the server looks for DNS records is its own DNS cache. (You can flush the cash by again going to the command prompt and typing ipconfig /flushdns) (For WINS it you can flush it by purging the Server's WINS cache by using NBTstat -rr)
2) Then the server will look at its own C:\windows\system32\drivers\host file. (for WINS it will be the C:\windows\system32\drivers\LMHOST file
3)Then, the DNS server will have a list of Host A records, Alias records also known as CNAME records and SRV (service)records. (For WINS, it will look at the WINS record, Netbios Alias record, and other server records)

______________________________________________________________________________

What I THINK is your problem, is your primary and secondary preferred WINS servers. Let's say you have a WINS server that no longer exists. It could set there and try like heck to get a resolution to the query UNTIL it goes to the second server.

Now, you asked, what about swapping the primary and secondary DNS servers. That is the exact same concept, BUT if DNS were the problem, you would see DNS errors in DCdiag reports and you would also not be able to map as well using the FQDN as the share.

I THINK this is a WINS/Netbios records problem.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
We do not use WINS here.  Idid notice on the Primary DNS Server, under the forward lookup zones inside the domain folder (see attachment) that there were multiple entries for some IP addresses.  meaning that we retired osme pc's/servers and put in new pc's/servers with previously used IP addresses and the orinal name stayed in there.

The new names show up as well.  I did clean up a but, that had no affect on the slowness.  I don't know.  I think I need a break.  Unless I did not understand your statement above chiefIT the WINS is no a problem.  I am sure that manually changing the host file on the PC's will work; but, that is not the type of fix that I am looking for right now.  Thanks thogh.  Having a good comversation like this gets the creative juices working.
dnsshot.doc
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ChiefITCommented:
Even without WINS, there are still some WINS related records. NBTSTAT -rr should cleans some of these WINS cache records up. Since this effects the whole domain, consider wiping off the WINS cached records on all servers listed in the browser service as master and backup browsers.
        \\EARTH
        \\MERCURY
        \\JUPITER

With the old DNS servers removed, you may still have DNS cache to those servers that will clear up in time. So, you may retry to flush the DNS cache again to see if the paths clear up.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
So I should go to a command prompt on the workstations and tyoe(without quotes):

"NBTSTAT -rr"

The hit enter?
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ChiefITCommented:
Sure, it doesn't hur anything.

All is does is refreshes your Netbios cache, also called the WINS cache.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
tried it but no difference.  There is only 1 user that has a problem with the slowness, so far atleast.  I will change her mapped drives to use IP addresses.  Everyone else pretty much just uses the netware server for file storage.

It is something that will need to be fixed eventually.  I am worried if it is one of thise thngs that may progressively get worse.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
>>"A: Yes, it does work with the FQDN (meaning \\jupiter\apps instead of \\192.168.1.37\apps).  "
\\jupiter is a NetBIOS name not a FQDN (DNS name). Yet you say it works? I thought that was the problem. I was actually wondering does \\jupiter.AD.WCD.ORG\apps work without the delay like using the IP.

>>"Is it just as simple as replacing the IP's in the TCP/IP settings on the client pc's?"
If you are referring to the PC, yes, but either DNS sever should be working properly.

>>"However I have not run DCDiag."
Why not give it a try.

I am a believe that WINS/NetBIOS is not necessary for the most part in a Windows domain. However if present and not properly configured NetBIOS can cause just as many problems if not more, as ChiefIT has pointed out.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I did try the FQDN \\jupiter.AD.WCD.ORG\apps  and it still shows slowness.

I will give the DCDiag a try.
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ChiefITCommented:
@Rob:

You know more about netware than I do. If someone has the client for netware and also IPX protocol enabled will it interfere with WINS and DNS?

Could this issue be the client computer looking at different protocols prior to TCP?

Maybe going to the Novel site and disabling the M$ version of Client services for netware, then downloading Novel's netware service would be benificial.

Another thought on my mind is this is a Micorosoft domain. The netware server seems to be a file server. Is it necessary to have a client service for netware devices to communicate with it?

What I do know is logons can be slowed down by the netware service that M$ has. So, I am wondering how that might effect DNS and WINS.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
>>"You know more about netware than I do."
I doubt that :-)
I have a deal with a colleague/neighbor; If I run into Novell he looks after it, and if he has a Windows DC I look after it.

>>"If someone has the client for netware and also IPX protocol enabled will it interfere with WINS and DNS?"
No IPX/SPX should easily co-exist with WINS and DNS, however I am curious though if the Novell client (not protocol) somehow might be prioritizing protocol priority. I have never seen it as a problem, but somewhere up there^ I thought there was mention that the problem existed or was more predominant on the workstations with the client. Perhaps Pkafkas could confirm if that is the case.

>>"...Is it necessary to have a client service for netware devices to communicate with it?"
I believe it is.

>>"What I do know is logons can be slowed down by the netware service that M$ has. So, I am wondering how that might effect DNS and WINS."
If that is the case I can see it causing name resolution protocol priority issues and delays. However I have never had a problem in mixed windows/Novell environments.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
C:\>DCDIAG /TEST:DNS

Domain Controller Diagnosis

Performing initial setup:
   Done gathering initial info.

Doing initial required tests

   Testing server: Default-First-Site-Name\EARTH
      Starting test: Connectivity
         ......................... EARTH passed test Connectivity

Doing primary tests

   Testing server: Default-First-Site-Name\EARTH

DNS Tests are running and not hung. Please wait a few minutes...

   Running partition tests on : ForestDnsZones

   Running partition tests on : DomainDnsZones

   Running partition tests on : Schema

   Running partition tests on : Configuration

   Running partition tests on : AD

   Running enterprise tests on : AD.WCD.ORG
      Starting test: DNS
         ......................... AD.WCD.ORG passed test DNS
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
I am stumped.
I wonder what would happen if you were to isolate 1 DNS server and 1 PC, w/o Novel client, on a switch? i.e. test ChiefIT's suggestions, and remove the Novell influence.
I must say it is an interesting problem with the 3 protocols at play. I apologize that we have not found anything conclusive as of yet. It must be frustrating for you.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Actually When I install the Novell Client, I only use TCP/IP not IPX.  Is that what you mean or just try a workstation or server with out the Novell logon client.

Our Windows Servers do not have the Novell CLient installed on them and I believe the same thing happens on the Windows servers.  I will try it and double check.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Do you think it has anything to do with changing the subnet masks on our network ...

from: 255.255.248.0
to:     255.255.254.0

??
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
>>"Do you think it has anything to do with changing the subnet masks on our network "
Yes if you didn't change all devices and DHCP scope options.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I just tried one of our windows servers and it was able to being up a windows share ... extremely fast.  I will try to un-install the novell client on a couple of my test pc's and just logon to windows and then see what the results are.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Interesting. Let us know how it goes.
--Rob
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
It is definately the Novell client.  After un-installing the client on a couple of PC's. Network access was soooo much faster.  Using the netbios names for mapped network drives, using the UNC to access shared folders.

Novell Client 4.90 and the newer PC's have Novell client 4.91 SP2..  So now what is the fix?  Why did this all of the sudden start to happen?  I will have to speak with some Netware contacts that I have to try to fix the problem.

Any thoughts from anyone here?  By the way thank you to everyone for all of your input so far.  Its been a great pleasure working and talking about this with all of you.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Interesting. I have never had a problem with the 2 co-existing, though that is only the case at 2 of my sites. As mentioned I am not a Novell expert, or even a Novell dummy. CheifIT may have some suggestions, or you might want to post a specific question in the Novel forum. If you do I would be anxious to have the link so I could follow along.

I assume you have reviewed the client configuration to see if there is anything odd about it?
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
I am not a Novell expert either.  Perhaps it has something to do with the Netware server beingon a different subnet from everything else.  I am sure it is still on an old subet 255.255.255.0 .

I will first change that and reboot the server.  See what happens after that.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
A couple of after thoughts:
-When the Novell client installed does it add a 'connection' under adapters and bindings? (control panel | network connections | on the menu bar advanced | advanced settings | adapters and bindings) Make sure any windows connections are at the top of the list. In the same window, different tab "provider order" make sure Microsoft is at the top of the list.
-Of no help but goggling shows others with similar issue with XP SP3 installed. Is that a common denominator?
-One googled site suggests if IE 7 > Internet Options > Security Tab > Local Intranet > Sites. There, untick "Automatically detect ..."
from: http://forums.novell.com/novell-product-support-forums/open-enterprise-server/oes-platform-independent/oes-client-windows/330888-slow-first-access-winxp-sp3-novell-client-4-91-sp4.html 
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ChiefITCommented:
What ROB just said is what I would have recommended. I think it goes through the bind order, see the novell client services first and tries to contact novell servers prior to the windows services for windows servers. This is why logons take so long, it goes through the entire domain looking for a Novell Domain controller, then if goes through the domain looking for a Windows domain because of the bind order of operations.

I am not a Novell Expert either. I think a question should arise in another zone about Novell from someone that has more experience in this mixture. One of the questions I would ask would be, "Is Novell client needed if the Novell server is a stand alone file server?"

Rob, how would you do this? ((a 20 point question in Novell that points to this?? or ask a moderator to remove one of the three zones and add it to the Novell Zone??))

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Rob WilliamsCommented:
I would create a totally new question for best exposure. The fact that it is 5 days old and has 70  posts will tend to make most people overlook the question. A pointer question not a bad idea, but a lot of people may not want to read it all to find the small pertinent part.
Just my thought.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
AS far as teh Netware server, we also use it for our e-mail server as well.  We use groupwise.  
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ChiefITCommented:
You see, this is what I am thinking:

What LDAP does your mail system use:

The Microsoft LDAP (called Active Directory)?
Or an LDAP on the netware server itself?

So, here is a theory / hunch:
This is a Microsoft Domain. All Domain services come from the Microsoft Domain controller. So, the term "client services for netware" doesn't seem to apply, in my opinion. Your computers are Microsoft clients. All of your RPC (remote procedure calls) and Kerberos authentication comes from the Microsoft servers. So, you are a Microsoft client that accesses Novell servers for files and also email. Mail, send things through the SMTP ports and doesn't really call upon RPC. But, does require authentication.

Email may/may not have it's own LDAP. If it is using your Microsoft LDAP, I am thinking you may not need Client Services for Netware. I think the "client services for Netware" is really intended for a Netware Domain controller and client machines to that domain controller. But, that is all in theory and also a hope.

So, in your new question, ask things like:

Do I really need "Client services for Netware"?
and
How can I prevent it from slowing down my logons and file access to a Windows domain? (I think the answer to that is to make sure "Microsoft Windows Client" comes before the "Client services for Neware" service)

I know there are some netware users here in EE that can better serve you. I am not skilled with netware enough to answer your questions on it.
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Robwill's suggestion about the bindings was right-on.

"-When the Novell client installed does it add a 'connection' under adapters and bindings? (control panel | network connections | on the menu bar advanced | advanced settings | adapters and bindings) Make sure any windows connections are at the top of the list. In the same window, different tab "provider order" make sure Microsoft is at the top of the list."

I needed to change the order in the 'Provider Order".   That allowed things to work a lot faster.  I have tried this on 7 different pc's on our network.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Perhaps my suggestion was specific, but it was t a result of CheifIT's concepts.
Sounds like some progress finally.
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ChiefITCommented:
Hi Five Rob:

Looks like we are in business???
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Thanks Pkafkas. Glad to hear it is resolved.
I would very much appreciate it if you could 'click' the request attention link and ask the moderators to reopen the question so you could split the points. http://#a22971924 may have been the final solution, but to be honest I would not have thought of it without the team work with CheifIT.
Thanks,
--Rob
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PkafkasNetwork EngineerAuthor Commented:
Ok,  I am not familiar with how to split the points up; but, I will figure that out.
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Thanks very much Pkafkas. I saw your post in the community forum, and they will do it for you or help you out. If not, or for future use, the following link may be of some help.
http://www.experts-exchange.com/help.jsp#hi100
Cheers !
--Rob
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Rob WilliamsCommented:
Thanks Pkafkas, and also modus_operandi for the adjustments.
Cheers !
--Rob
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ChiefITCommented:
Thanks Rob:

But, It's OK. I like working with folks to resolve problems. Points are just 1's and 0's on a computer somewhere.

Quote of the day:
There are 10 ways to count in binary, Ones and zero's.
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