[2 days left] What’s wrong with your cloud strategy? Learn why multicloud solutions matter with Nimble Storage.Register Now

x
?
Solved

Stoning to death for adultery in Islam =)

Posted on 2009-07-23
82
Medium Priority
?
105 Views
Last Modified: 2012-05-07
I was deeply disturbed when i read the following article in the independent about a Princess facing Saudi death penalty. (now given political asylum in the UK)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/princess-facing-saudi-death-penalty-given-secret-uk-asylum-1753007.html

In the article I would like to bring to the readers attention to 3 key points...

1. She persuaded the court that if she returned to the Gulf state she and her child would be subject to capital punishment under Sharia law  specifically flogging and stoning to death. She was also worried about the possibility of an honour killing.

2.Last week, Saudi Arabia's religious police were blamed for the death of two sisters who were murdered in what was deemed an "honour killing" by their brother, after the sisters were arrested for allegedly mixing with men to whom they were not related.

3.In 2007, in a case that shocked Saudis, a woman from Qatif was sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in prison after being gang-raped. She offended cultural expectations because she was unaccompanied when she got into a car with a former boyfriend.

How can such atrocities be tolerated? Is'nt Islam being cruel towards women under the given circumstances?

---

A related event in Islamic countries that I've read of a couple of times recently:

Man rapes woman.
Woman becomes pregnant.
Woman reports rape, but (under Islamic law) requires four legitimate witnesses for the man to be prosecuted.
Naturally, she cannot provide this evidence, so the man goes free.
However, there is proof (in her womb) that she's had sex. As such, she is punished...
0
Comment
Question by:InteractiveMind
[X]
Welcome to Experts Exchange

Add your voice to the tech community where 5M+ people just like you are talking about what matters.

  • Help others & share knowledge
  • Earn cash & points
  • Learn & ask questions
82 Comments
 
LVL 33

Expert Comment

by:raterus
ID: 24929409
For one, Sadia Arabia is the #1 exporter of oil.

People, even nations, turn a blind eye when they are satisfied with their own wants.
0
 
LVL 25

Author Comment

by:InteractiveMind
ID: 24930591
I'm interested more in the tolerance of the Muslim community than of foreign nations.
If I belonged to a religion which produced such blatant and unecessary evil (and in this case, it IS the religion, not a minor fringe of extremists), then I wouldn't be able to ignore it...
0
 
LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:Cyclamen
ID: 24932065
InteractiveMind,


- "Stoning to death for adultery in Islam =)"

It is not only in Islam but also in Judaism, in both religions this punishment for male/female who was married, otherwise it is only 100 lashes.


- "How can such atrocities be tolerated? Is'nt Islam being cruel towards women under the given circumstances?"

Yes, atrocities can not be tolerated, but the  given circumstances is not enough to make such judgment. In general Islam is not cruel towards women, the law is equal for male and female in punishment.



- "Man rapes woman."

In Islamic country like Saudi it is hard to impossible to be happen until she accepted and agreed that then you can not say "raps". It could be here or there outside of Islamic countries.


- "Woman becomes pregnant."

Thats normal if she had not used any medicine or protector.


- "Woman reports rape, but (under Islamic law) requires four legitimate witnesses for the man to be prosecuted."

She has the right to report if she raped, but she dose NOT need four witnesses for the man to be prosecuted, if she has any evidence she can report. Four witnesses are required to punish the man as an adulterer, but other evidences are also taken into account and a punishment is there, the judge should study that from case to case.


- "Naturally, she cannot provide this evidence, so the man goes free."

First reread the perviousness paragraph, the see that the man never goes free if there is any other evidence.

- "However, there is proof (in her womb) that she's had sex. As such, she is punished..."

Unfortunately you know nothing about Islamic law because that is not a proof, you dream it is a proof.

To punish the woman as adulterer, again the law request four witnesses that she is also guilty, other evidences could be taken into account to punish the woman (but not adulterer punishment) if the judge convinced she was guilty not raped, and the punishment would be studied from case to case.
0
Free Tool: Site Down Detector

Helpful to verify reports of your own downtime, or to double check a downed website you are trying to access.

One of a set of tools we are providing to everyone as a way of saying thank you for being a part of the community.

 
LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:Cyclamen
ID: 24932139
I left one thing in law if someone male/female accused anyone of adultery then four witnesses is required to prevent the accuser from  being punished 80 lashes. This law to prevent anyone from just accusing anyone without having sufficient evidences. Anyhow accusing of something less than adultery then sufficient evidences is required upon the judge request from case to case.
0
 
LVL 27

Assisted Solution

by:BigRat
BigRat earned 200 total points
ID: 24933315
Cyclamen: Get up to date. A DNA test made by ONE expert is enough to confirm sexual intercourse between two partners. FOUR witnesses are not required.

>>It is not only in Islam but also in Judaism

The state of Israel, the ONLY judaic state, does NOT stone people to death for adultery, nor do the lash people. That all went out with the Mutiny of the Bounty.

>>In Islamic country like Saudi it is hard to impossible to be happen

I suppose you're trying to say, that since Suadia Arabia is such a marvellous Islamic country that such attacks on women don't occur and therefore the women must have wanted sex. First you need to grow up, since most women find sex (wham, bam, thank you ma'am) totally boring, and second you're just as credible as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who claimed that there's no homosexuality in Iran.

What simply amazes me is when all of you Islamists are going to wake up! I've nothing against religion per se, but the way religion is exploited by the "powers" in these so-called Islamic countries. It is frightening. Why, for example, do you need a "religous police"? The only reason is to ensure that everybody obeys the rules, which are made by those in power. You can see exactly this type of power struggle going on in Iran, with both sides quoting prophets and books to justify their case.

The only reason why you deny women free choice, with this silly "men are protectors of women" stuff, is that you don't have free choice yourself. You are constrained and exploited by your rulers and petty princes just like we Europeans were in the Middle Ages. We were called on to pay taxes and hommage to kings who just wasted it on luxury (Louis XV in France) or by incessant wars (Frederick the "Great" - what was great about that?) They wind you up like clockwork mice and then they jet off to Monte Carlo.

You can be arrested and put in prison for not observing Ramadan in all but one Islamic Republic. And that one Islamic republic has no oil, no gas, no phosphates or other minerals, and is not ruled by some madman with his clique party. There democracy reigns somewhat and most people are happy.

Meanwhile that millions of Pakistani's eek out a living in squalor the government builds atomic bombs. Whilst many Palestinians and wallowing in camps the Gulf Sheiks and the Saudi Princes swell around in luxury that would make most Americans green with envy. So don't go trying to tell us that Saudia Arabia is such a wonderful place without telling us how much money they pay you each month for doing so.
0
 
LVL 27

Assisted Solution

by:tliotta
tliotta earned 80 total points
ID: 24937947
> ...then I wouldn't be able to ignore it...

Assuming you were a Saudi Muslim, then what would you actually do?

How long would you expect to remain free if you actually did something?

>  3.In 2007, in a case that shocked Saudis,...

Expressions of "shock" -- but what actual actions came from it that might have made things different? And I'd wonder how many were actually "shocked" and how many simply said they were shocked for foreign observers.

I don't have a clue what the answers are to my own questions. I'm just looking at exploring the cultural boundaries for the sake of the question.

Tom
0
 
LVL 6

Accepted Solution

by:
Mujtaba_Alam_Khan earned 720 total points
ID: 24940413
@ InteractiveMind

First of all, let me say that cases for women being stoned to death are very rare, yet they are blown out of  proportion by the media if it was genocide.

Lets put all the factors together:

According to the Shari'a from the Quran and Hadiths:
Stoning to death for adulterey of Married Men / Women is part of Islam.
Unmarried men / women are supposed to be lashed a 100 times and even face banishment for up to two years. As the Hadiths put it, it was part of Jewish Traditions and law by God and it is a Law in Islam.

Four witnessed have to be produced against the accussed, unless they have admitted it themselves. As for Rape, you do not need witnesses. [Tradition]

Now coming back to the other factor of countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Parts of Nigeria.
These nations do not implement things as according to Shari'a as one would like to be made to believe, they have from time to time executed 'unmarried' women (sometimes only them), they do have Laws but top officals, clerics seems to above that law, whenever they are doing such things as adultery. So to say they implement Islamic Law is an overstatement.

If someone was to get stats on Adulterey from Saudia Arabia and Iran you would think that it was Amsterdam.

As for the Princess, well she is a princess and last princess to simply try and run away with someone she loved (not even committed adulterey but wanted to get married) was executed along with her lover, in Saudi Arabia.

The point I am trying to make is that those countries to not implement Shari'a Law according to Islam (Qur'an, Hadith). All they do is try to show they are in Absolute Power and are some how great holder of Islam, yet they have broken every law in the books.

As I told someone in the other topic: "People don't have a fear of God because if they did they might actually be religious. "


-Muj ;-|
0
 
LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:Cyclamen
ID: 24940619
BigRat,

- "Cyclamen: Get up to date. A DNA test made by ONE expert is enough to confirm sexual intercourse between two partners. FOUR witnesses are not required."

I have good experience with that, I do not need it. I provided what is the law in Islamic point of view, I am not the Ruler to make laws or have the right to change that laws, I am providing what is it only.


- "So don't go trying to tell us that Saudia Arabia is such a wonderful place without telling us how much money they pay you each month for doing so."

Truly, that comment has null value in this thread because I have mentioned Saudi because the OP has mentioned it, and I am trying to explain the case according to the given data.

I have not seen any thing in your comment which could further the discussion.

0
 
LVL 7

Assisted Solution

by:samenglish
samenglish earned 200 total points
ID: 24958280
InteractiveMind,

Your questions are
(1) How can such atrocities be tolerated?
and
(2) Is'nt Islam being cruel towards women under the given circumstances?

The answers are
(1) they must be tolerated unless you are prepared to start a revolution or overthrow the government or do it on behalf of the Saudi people.
(2) No "Islam" isn't the perpetrator of the cruelty, it is the Saudi government's soverign right to govern in whichever manner it chooses that is to blame. If soverignty of any nation doesn't have to answer to a global conscience then there's nothing to stop this kind of law enforcement.

now... no more bush-bashing ... I want my points

and this kind of question is really a cheap shot at Islam, which won't succeed because nobody here is telling you to interprit a religious text literally and if they do, then that is their individual fault not that of their religion or religious text. It is impossible to lay blame at a text written centuries ago or at the idealism (misguided though it may be) that yielded it. It will always be the fault of the individual who couldn't evolve and adapt and grow with the rest of humanity. These individuals are to blame, and blame could be extended to their teachers but you can't blame the religion itself because that's not what it's about. (now can I have the points?)
0
 
LVL 8

Expert Comment

by:behenderson
ID: 25001202


In Christian nations the crime of adultery had punishments ranging from being placed in the stocks to whipping, mutilation and capital punishment.  This has not been the case for a very long time though.  
I understand the argument that it is not nearly as common as our media makes it seem, I am sure that is probably true.. but still it does seem backwards.  If you are part of the constituency in your country that is attempting to improve upon this situation then you are to be highly commended, if you are not then my moral beliefs do not allow me to give any impression that I approve of the morality of your position.
The morality of bombing and torturing people is also abhorrent.  If you gave most women the choice of being stoned to death or having their children killed by bombs, most would choose stoning.  Where Afghanistan is concerned that met the criteria of a just war and you cannot make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, but with regards to Iraq the direct threat to our nation wasn't there.  So my early tabulations on the bad morality scoreboard for the last 10 years shows:
                                     United States      Muslim World
Women Stoned         0                            1
Babies Killed             1                             0
I believe that that the United States is the greatest nation on earth, but part of being a real Christian is observing the concept that you look to yourself before you throw stones.  This is not a skill that I have perfected, but I think it is worthwhile to be self reflective.  That doesn't mean you condone things that you believe are wrong, but criticize others carefully, and with your eyes wide open.
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25006784
@ Behenderson

>> In Christian nations the crime of adultery had punishments ranging from being placed in the stocks to whipping, mutilation and capital punishment.  This has not been the case for a very long time though. <<

This is probably be one of the Points I would put forward, that such things existed in parts of the western world over along period of time and change gradually took place. Many places in the world do not move at the same pace and change will gradually come, it will not come today or tomorrow and maybe not even in 50 years time.

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 31

Assisted Solution

by:rid
rid earned 400 total points
ID: 25009043
How can anyone even consider punishment or "legal action" against someone for their private activities, like having sex or being raped? Isn't that like very private things, that only the involved parties and possibly their close family should ever have to deal with? Why should any sort of "authority" be involved?

In Europe we've had  the inquisition and  the witch-trials and such, thank you so very much, but we've moved on in most parts and this was quite some time ago.... Several hundred years, actually... I guess some countries in other parts of the world still keep old customs alive for the power-play, but we don't really want to re-import any of that stuff, thanks. It's old and it stinks.

God may be greater than man, but religion isn't ever more important than an individual's soul. A religion that gathers "believers" by force, brutality and fear will not prevail.
/RID
0
 
LVL 1

Expert Comment

by:Cyclamen
ID: 25009654
rid,

"It's old and it stinks."

Are you trying to answer the question or trying to disparage?
0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25010795
Trying to disparage isn't what I think I'm doing. The original question(s) could be answered as follows:
How can such atrocities be tolerated? --- I don't understand that.
 Is'nt Islam being cruel towards women under the given circumstances? --- It is, obviously.

/RID
0
 
LVL 6

Assisted Solution

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
Mujtaba_Alam_Khan earned 720 total points
ID: 25012450
@ rid
>> How can anyone even consider punishment or "legal action" against someone for their private activities, like having sex or being raped? <<

First of all let me say that there is a Difference between sex and rape.
If private activities are kept private (which is most of the time the case) then no one can bring "Legal Action" against someone. Also I stated that you need witness for Adultery (not rape).
>> Isn't that like very private things, that only the involved parties and possibly their close family should ever have to deal with? <<

Well Yes and No, some case it is really the family the bring such matters to the Authority.
>> Why should any sort of "authority" be involved? <<

Becasue it is a State Crime & It is a crime in Islam.
However as I mentioned before that these states do not understand the Laws that govern Islam.

>> In Europe we've had  the inquisition and  the witch-trials and such, thank you so very much, but we've moved on in most parts and this was quite some time ago.... Several hundred years, actually... I guess some countries in other parts of the world still keep old customs alive for the power-play, but we don't really want to re-import any of that stuff, thanks. It's old and it stinks. <<

People need to read a bit of history. In Saudi Arabia it was only around 100 - 150 years ago that such laws started to come into place. In Iran it wasn't until about 20 years ago, in places like Nigeria and Somali these are almost recently introduced between less then 10 - 5 years. However in Most Muslim countries they do not have such a penality, they might have a penality for adultery but not stoning to death.

>>  Is'nt Islam being cruel towards women under the given circumstances? <<

You forget: "it takes two to Tango" the Punishment is for both men and women.
As I already mentioned about the Princess, she belongs to a royal family her doing such a thing would under mine the Power that the Royal Family holds if she wasn't punished.

However the Islamic Law is very clear on that, that if a Muslim is outside of the Islamic State (really countries now) that they must obey the law of the Land and if a crime is committed on that Land, it can only be punishable by that Law and not Islamic Law, even if the person returns to a Islamic State.

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25013076
The problem with islamic and indeed any other religion-based "law" is that it seems to be so static. Man changes over the centuries; we now know much more about our own actions and we know more of the world and should also develop our understanding and compassion. Static law don't allow for change but relies on ancient texts that MIGHT have been adequate when they were conceivied but are hopelessly out-of-whack with current society.

Also, religious law is fundamentally wrong, since there should be a freedom of religion, including the freedom to NOT adhere to a religion. How can "law" based on belief and designed thousands of years ago ever have anything to do with a non-believing youth in the 21st century?

Stoning is cruel and barbaric, whomever happens to be stoned for whatever reason. Any irreversible damage of that magnitude done to a human is INhuman and shouldn't be part of any law. Where did the "good God" go? The one who can forgive and go on?
/RID
0
 
LVL 6

Assisted Solution

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
Mujtaba_Alam_Khan earned 720 total points
ID: 25018945
@ rid

>> The problem with islamic and indeed any other religion-based "law" is that it seems to be so static. Man changes over the centuries; we now know much more about our own actions and we know more of the world and should also develop our understanding and compassion. Static law don't allow for change but relies on ancient texts that MIGHT have been adequate when they were conceivied but are hopelessly out-of-whack with current society. <<

I do agree with this, however people point out that if one does not implement things according to the text then one does not have that Faith in it's purest form.
Society changing doesn't matter, some would even say society change is the very reason that those laws should be brought in like Giving rights to Homosexuals, having abortion and even in some places making prostitute legal.


>> Also, religious law is fundamentally wrong, since there should be a freedom of religion, including the freedom to NOT adhere to a religion. How can "law" based on belief and designed thousands of years ago ever have anything to do with a non-believing youth in the 21st century? <<

Well that is a good point, I shall use it next time if I ever argue on Islamic Law.


>> Where did the "good God" go? The one who can forgive and go on? <<

I once asked the same thing, that why can't people be forgiven, since God can forgive people. The answer I got was that: "If you did a crime against the religion, it is better for you to accept the Punishment in this Life then the After life and those who accept it are then forgiven by God in the after life".

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 49

Expert Comment

by:DanRollins
ID: 25048209
It seems pretty straight-forward to me:  
Anyone who stones a woman for adultery should have their hands cut off.
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:jwenting
ID: 25057546
why, Dan?
According to Islamic law stoning is the appropriate penalty for a woman in case of adultery.
Cutting off a hand is only applicable for thieves, not those upholding the law...

Of course I don't describe to barbaric laws like Sharia, but if you're going to apply it, apply it correctly and fully.
Which is why the current trend in the UK to allow Muslims to run their own courts outside the British common law and have the verdicts be automatically declared legally binding is such an affront and a very dangerous situation.
Those courts could conceivably grow to the point where they pass death sentences (those courts are supposedly only active for civil disputes, but adultery is a civil case and does under Islam carry a death sentence for the woman and only the woman) and those would be legal despite the death sentence having been abandoned in the UK decades ago.
0
 
LVL 11

Assisted Solution

by:Ramesh Srinivas
Ramesh Srinivas earned 200 total points
ID: 25060954
"The problem with islamic and indeed any other religion-based "law" is that it seems to be so static. Man changes over the centuries;"

The Law is only static for those who do not understand. And I think that God would know how man would change over time because, well, He is God ;)

"we now know much more about our own actions and we know more of the world and should also develop our understanding and compassion."

Yeah yeah, but all men cannot live compassionately, there WILL be evil as long as man lives.

"Static law don't allow for change but relies on ancient texts that MIGHT have been adequate"

Again, the law is not static, if you read and understand it according to the context of its relevelation. But most ignorant people do not - they just pluck out a quote and trumpet its literal translation like they know english - well done to those - not!

"Also, religious law is fundamentally wrong, since there should be a freedom of religion, including the freedom to NOT adhere to a religion."

There is no compulsion in Islam, and so you cannot force anyone to it. That is islamic ruling!

"How can "law" based on belief and designed thousands of years ago ever have anything to do with a non-believing youth in the 21st century?"

You'll have to speak to all the converts who are returning to religion in great numbers.

"Stoning is cruel and barbaric"

Violence is violence and punishment is punishment. You want to stop a trend in crime, then put some fear into people. Or you can put them into overcrowded prisons which give them a bit of a hard time for a while and then let them out early, knowing that if they commit a crime again they will just have to rough it for a bit.

"Any irreversible damage of that magnitude done to a human is INhuman"

Well its um supposed to cause death! It is a severe punishment for a severe crime, but unless you read up more on under what circumstances this punishment can be carried out, you shouldnt really reach certain conclusions.

"Where did the "good God" go? The one who can forgive and go on?"

He is always there - what would you like for him to forgive? Should he just forgive everyone? Where does it stop?

And also, punishments in this world can be a doorway to mercy in the next - the real world in heaven.

If you believe that is.
0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25061436
Talk about "worlds apart"... I can't even begin to understand how anyone can, under any circumstance want to torment and kill anyone for commiting adultery (or being raped or anything, really). No matter what winding and lengthy explanations and interpretations are presented. The mere fact that there is auch an option in the law makes it suspect in my eyes.

"Well its um supposed to cause death! It is a severe punishment for a severe crime, but unless you read up more on under what circumstances this punishment can be carried out, you shouldnt really reach certain conclusions."

Adultery a severe crime, come on. Against whom? Bringing down the death penalty for high treason i wartime might just conceivably be justifiable, but for adultery?

And, yes; I'd prefer a god who can forgive those who repent. Society may still choose to punish criminals, though, for keeping them out of circulation or as a deterrant.

/RID
0
 
LVL 49

Expert Comment

by:DanRollins
ID: 25065070
jwenting,
Stoning a person to death is, in fact, theft -- stealing a person's life.   The fact that murder is sanctioned by some religious court as a punishment for adultery simply and directly points out the absurdity.  Why not issue a random punishment for minor crime?  It will probably make a criminal think twice about cheating on his taxes....
0
 
LVL 11

Expert Comment

by:Ramesh Srinivas
ID: 25066799
"I can't even begin to understand how anyone can, under any circumstance want to torment and kill anyone for committing adultery"

Thats because adultery in the west is the "norm" now and bears no consequences.

0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25068329
"Thats because adultery in the west is the "norm" now and bears no consequences."

That's just utter rot, if you excuse my french. It is not "norm" by any standards I know about, but the act and its consequences are played out on another plane. It is not a crime from society's point of view, but it is a severe break of trust and promise on the personal level.

I don't about your position in this, saleek, but it is just as offending for a "westerner" to be pinpointed as part of a perverted and decandent society, as it must be for a moslem to be made representative of all senseless things that might be carried out in the name of islam. Just FYI...

Moral standards, high moral standards, are not the property of islam or indeed any religion; they may just as well develop and be accepted by atheists, or agnostics or "brights" or whatever may be the word of choice for a non-religious person or group.

/RID
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25068995
@ jwenting

>> Which is why the current trend in the UK to allow Muslims to run their own courts outside the British common law and have the verdicts be automatically declared legally binding is such an affront and a very dangerous situation.
Those courts could conceivably grow to the point where they pass death sentences (those courts are supposedly only active for civil disputes, but adultery is a civil case and does under Islam carry a death sentence for the woman and only the woman) and those would be legal despite the death sentence having been abandoned in the UK decades ago. <<

I don't believe that was the case in UK. Many Muslims were going to mosque for Civil advice on how Islam deals with Divorce, Marriage, Inhertience, etc..

However  I don't agree with that type Sharia Law, also it being very independent from the State.  It raises many more problems then it solves for Muslims.

I believe I have mentioned many time my Opposition to Sharia Law, not just in the West but also the Islamic world.

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 11

Assisted Solution

by:Jason210
Jason210 earned 200 total points
ID: 25117779
I'm no fan of OSHO. He had some funny ideas, which I'm not sure I agree with. But a lot of what he said rings true. And he was a good talker!
It seems that men dislike the idea of a woman being free. There is a prevailing view in many societies that it is ok for men to play around but not women.
I think it's about brusied egos. And that's not good. Not bad. Only is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ocbZhRQS9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UshTlso9QYI&feature=channel
 
 
 
 
0
 
LVL 11

Expert Comment

by:Ramesh Srinivas
ID: 25120817
"That's just utter rot"

How so? What are the consequences of adultery in the West? A slap on the wrist? A divorce?

Hardly a deterrent and no wonder it's rife.

"but it is just as offending for a "westerner" to be pinpointed as part of a perverted and decandent society"

So you think a westerner would be labelled indecent or perverted by fellow westerners??

Doubt it very much.


"Moral standards, high moral standards, are not the property of islam or indeed any religion"

No one is saying that.

0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25122399
""That's just utter rot"

How so? What are the consequences of adultery in the West? A slap on the wrist? A divorce?

Hardly a deterrent and no wonder it's rife."

And is that a problem? One that warrants killing (the females among) the perpetrators ???

As for the "perversion", that seems to be a main theme in islamistic criticism of "western" countries. I guess I qualify as a pervert, as I don't think adultery is a crime (against society) and I don't think law should be built on 2000-year-old ideas, but adapted to modern society and modern crime.
/RID
0
 
LVL 11

Expert Comment

by:Ramesh Srinivas
ID: 25122791
"And is that a problem?"

Well yes, it degrades society and morals values and breaks up families, leaves children without their father/mother etc etc.

So yes, it's a problem.

"One that warrants killing"

Not necessarily no, but these things happen because of lack of education amongst the poor in a small number of countries (six out of fifty-two Muslim-majority countries in the world use stoning), where culture is dominant over religion.

According to Islamic law, stoning requires there to be 4 witnesses who actually SEE the sexual intercourse taking place. And I think it can be agreed that there is not much chance of that happening, unless the act is conducted in public.

Anyway, the point being yes, there is a law which punishes by stoning, however it is incredibly difficult to prescribe such punishment, because of the evidence/witnesses required.

"I guess I qualify as a pervert, as I don't think adultery is a crime (against society)"

Whatever rocks your boat.
0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25123246
Well it's been an interesting discussion. I think Sweden (which is my country) works OK, with divorces and all, and with no death penalty at all. Others may feel that their own societies need stoning and harsher laws. That's OK.

My *opinion*, though, is that death penalty is not OK and cruel and unusual methods to kill people don't make it any better. I assume there are several opinions on our way of doing things in Sweden as well. That's OK, too.

I am also in favour of democracy, one feature of which is that the people (technically) make the law. As society matures with time, the laws should mature.

Cheers
/RID
0
 
LVL 8

Expert Comment

by:behenderson
ID: 25131665
So has Sharia solved the problem of Muslim Men harrassing and molesting unacompanied women in the streets, in front of everyone?  It's not all about family values.
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25133715
I am going to have to agree with rid.
That such matters are personal and the state (even an Islamic one) has gotten no right to go into a person(s) or families personal matters and it doesn't matter what it leads to. I still is Non of the States business to interfer.
Society, Community and religions are all corrupt today. Who's going to Judge who now?

Such punishments were fine at that time for a  trible to carry out but not today.
Even the four witness are not reliable & it doesn't matter what Holy Scripture they put their hand on.

And as I mentioned before, the countries that implement such Laws are the same ones that have a high rate of Adultery taking place. Whether it be Saudi Arabia or Iran.

>> I am also in favour of democracy, one feature of which is that the people (technically) make the law. As society matures with time, the laws should mature. <<

Me too.

-Muj ;-|
0
 
LVL 3

Expert Comment

by:Romasa
ID: 25323185
I want to ask a questions to all who commented on this post, please reply with all sincerety:
"If someone were to rape with your mother or sister, being blood relation, what will be your reaction??
And if that person is given in your custody to take revenge as the way you like, then what will you do with him??"

Just think on it and tell me
0
 
LVL 11

Expert Comment

by:Jason210
ID: 25323789
My reaction would be to kill him. However, we have a system, called the state, to which we pay taxes to maintain social order. The state is supposed to deal with this kind of crimes.
Now let me ask you a question. If someone to rape your wife, what would be your reaction?
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25327101
I am going to with Jason210 answer, yes we have the nature of simply go out to kill that person and take revenge, but it simple doesn't cut in the legal system.

But coming back to the question, rape is not the same as adultery.
There is a fundamental problem with any Religious Law (whether they believe it is God's Law, the Sharia Law etc..). The Problem is simple, the interpretation of the Law.

The moment any person interpretes the Law, it actually becomes Human law. The problem with Sharia is no except, infact the Sharia has been changed by many people over the thousand year and interpreted variously by different sects. Sharia over a thousand year is different from what it is today.

-Muj ;-)

0
 
LVL 3

Expert Comment

by:Romasa
ID: 25327114
rape is never ever should be allowed in any state. And the punish of that case should be that much horrible that no one else will ever think to do it again
0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25327338
Fear of the punishment is not a working concept. It should be obvious in countries that practice the death sentence. Of course, you'd expect the hangman to be idle at all times by now, but he isn't.

You can't really hand back the practical side of justice to the plaintiff either; that would only mean it'll be safe to rob/abuse/rape etc the weak and disabled, since they can't possibly retaliate for physical reasons. That is one reason most societies let the community (e.g. state) handle such things. Also, the wronged party may not see clearly enough to let the punishment match the crime; some people seem to want to kill for nothing and that might just get a bit out of control.

Rape isn't allowed anywhere I know about.
/RID
0
 
LVL 3

Expert Comment

by:Romasa
ID: 25327365
The discussion is getting out of the context of question, which is why Islam chooses such punishment for adultery
0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25327463
The question was something like "isn't islam being cruel to women by having such harsh laws". This question is almost rhetorical IMHO.

The sort of "follow-up" question, WHY SOME believers in islam think that the rules need to be so draconic (and somewhat slanted against women), is of course interesting but not part of the original text.

/RID
0
 
LVL 3

Expert Comment

by:Romasa
ID: 25327502
I would like to mention here that, in Islam, the punishment is same for both men and women, then why to take the case of women alone?
0
 
LVL 31

Expert Comment

by:rid
ID: 25327543
I quote from the original question:

"Man rapes woman.
Woman becomes pregnant.
Woman reports rape, but (under Islamic law) requires four legitimate witnesses for the man to be prosecuted.
Naturally, she cannot provide this evidence, so the man goes free.
However, there is proof (in her womb) that she's had sex. As such, she is punished..."

/RID
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25329684
@ Romasa

>> rape is never ever should be allowed in any state. And the punish of that case should be that much horrible that no one else will ever think to do it again <<

Thats ridicules the State never allows such things to happen. Infact thats why there are laws in Place to protect the victim & punish the criminal, even if the person is not put to death.

In most these so called Sharia following countries the girl raped is never defend and sometimes sentence to death herself, the other Islamic countries trend is for the family to abandon or put shame to the girl who have been raped.

There is another kind of rape that actually happens "is in Marriage/family" in the Islamic world, where the wife is forced to have sex by her husband and in some cases her husbands allows his friends to rape her. Others have been raped by cousin, uncle etc..

I don't see any Muslim nation defend any rapist.
Again I say Rape is different from Adultery. One is forced the other is by Choice.

I still am against the Sharia and the horrible Interpretation of it. It took the Qur'an to be complied over 70 years. The Hadiths came between 250-300 years. In that period time rulers changed Sharia, to suit their need. Different sects formed and different Laws were created.

Again I will say, that If you make an imagine of God then that really isn't God and that is the same as if you intrepretate the religious text using your mind, then that can't be really what God wants.
Thats what people did a thousand year ago and that what people are doing today.


-Muj ;-|
0
 
LVL 11

Expert Comment

by:Ramesh Srinivas
ID: 25332578
People can dream up various defamations of Sharia, but the fact remains that any rule set can be interpreted differently. The notion that Sharia has changed over time is somewhat blurring the truth, to put it lightly. The Sharia is made of and supported by the Holy Quran which has not changed at all in over 1400 years.

What instigates different interpretations is man. Many of those poorer countries where stoning is commonplace, do not have sufficient education on Islam and Sharia. This is a repetitive cycle with successive generations and that is why no progress is made.
0
 
LVL 3

Expert Comment

by:Romasa
ID: 25371710
@ rid:

four legitimate witnesses are required for the case of adultery, not rape
the case mentioned is rape.

Please go to the link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-9-qDqnswA
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25438353
@ Saleek

>> People can dream up various defamations of Sharia, but the fact remains that any rule set can be interpreted differently. <<

The rules by God cannot be changed, yet when people have interpreted the religious text they have changed.

>> The notion that Sharia has changed over time is somewhat blurring the truth, to put it lightly. The Sharia is made of and supported by the Holy Quran which has not changed at all in over 1400 years. <<

You forget that the Sharia is made up from the Qur'an and Hadith. The Qur'an only bascially state some laws and some punishment but even that can't be put into pratice without the Hadith which are meant to give a detail account of the Law and how many people where punished for it and how many people were not and what were the circumstance. But the Problem straight away arises because the Hadith Spanned over 250-300 years. In that period of time many people ruled the Islamic empire, different sects were form and infact different Hadiths were made.  So how is it possible that the Sharia is the same as it was 1400 years. Muslim rulers over the 1400 year went around with whatever Sharia they felt was suitable for themselves.

Why is it that most Islamic Countries are not chopping off the hands or feet thieves, That is clearly stated by the Qur'an?  

Even on that Law, which the Sharia / Qur'an is suppose to be clear on, there are so many interpretation of the Sharia that you cannot Judge properly what the punishment should be.


>> Many of those poorer countries where stoning is commonplace, do not have sufficient education on Islam and Sharia. This is a repetitive cycle with successive generations and that is why no progress is made. <<

Saudi Arabia and Iran are not poor countries and neither is Nigeria. They also don't lack in Education in Islam or Sharia.

-Muj ;-?
0
 
LVL 11

Expert Comment

by:Ramesh Srinivas
ID: 25446931
@ Muj

The rules by God cannot be changed, yet when people have interpreted the religious text they have changed.

This is done by misquoting and using weak hadiths - and anyone can do this. And the point is that the uneducated have no defense against it and it causes damage to the ummah.

You forget that the Sharia is made up from the Qur'an and Hadith.

I didnt assert it was made up only of the Quran, I stated it was supported by also.

But the Problem straight away arises because the Hadith Spanned over 250-300 years. In that period of time many people ruled the Islamic empire, different sects were form and infact different Hadiths were made.  So how is it possible that the Sharia is the same as it was 1400 years. Muslim rulers over the 1400 year went around with whatever Sharia they felt was suitable for themselves.

Well most hadiths can be authenticated via chain of narration and then those that are, can be confirmed by narrations from others and also the Quran is used as support.

Why is it that most Islamic Countries are not chopping off the hands or feet thieves, That is clearly stated by the Qur'an?  

Many do many don't. But then many do not implement Shariah to it's fullest or at all.

Even on that Law, which the Sharia / Qur'an is suppose to be clear on, there are so many interpretation of the Sharia that you cannot Judge properly what the punishment should be.

Are there? There shouldnt be if it is what is commanded in the Holy Quran. If we decide that something in the Quran is no longer relevent in this day and age or too harsh, then where does it stop?

You might as well throw the Quran and all the Hadiths away and enjoin with your secular brothers and live it up.

>> Many of those poorer countries where stoning is commonplace, do not have sufficient education on Islam and Sharia.

True.

>>This is a repetitive cycle with successive generations and that is why no progress is made. <<

Yes.

>> Saudi Arabia and Iran are not poor countries and neither is Nigeria. They also don't lack in Education in Islam or Sharia.

And?
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25449055
@ Saleek
>> This is done by misquoting and using weak hadiths - and anyone can do this. And the point is that the uneducated have no defense against it and it causes damage to the ummah. <<

How do you know it isn't misquoting or rather another interpretation? By the way the stoning to death of a person is not consider a weak hadith.

>> I didnt assert it was made up only of the Quran, I stated it was supported by also. <<
But thats the whole problem with your argument you say there is blurring of the truth while the Sharia is supported by the Qur'an but when it comes to the Hadith the Truth is blurred.

>> Well most hadiths can be authenticated via chain of narration and then those that are, can be confirmed by narrations from others and also the Quran is used as support. <<

There are many problems with the Hadiths including the ones claimed to be authenticate.
The first problem is that collections of those hadiths was done 250-300 years after the persons death. The people who collected it never met the Prophet or any of his companions because all of them were dead. There was no logical way of confirming anything was authentic.
There are narrations in the so the called Authenticate (the Most Authentic in some cases claimed) that never were companions of the Prophets, other times his companion contradict another companion on the same topic. The list can go on. Not only that, if you claim those hadith are wrong then there is an interpretation for those too. Out of 600,000 supposely collected hadith you are left with almost 3000 and even in those there are contradicts.

It could have been the case that some of those are true but more likely people made up most of the hadiths as they went along. After the Prophets death there was rivalary between the companions, there ws tribal disputes, there was rebellions, there was assassinations of Rulers, there was the formations of Kingdomship and also sectarianism.
The Prophets Companions fought each other, killed each other and at the end of the day they are meant to be the narrators of the authentic Hadith after 250 years the Islamic world changed.

Where is the truth after all that happened?

 
>> Many do many don't. But then many do not implement Shariah to it's fullest or at all. <<

Actually many don't and tell me Saleek if the Sharia is meant to be Crystal Clear then why is it that Many Islamic Countries don't implmented it fully?


>> Are there? There shouldnt be if it is what is commanded in the Holy Quran. If we decide that something in the Quran is no longer relevent in this day and age or too harsh, then where does it stop? <<

Then why are you saying that 'Stoning to death is not part of Islam'. You seem to believe that cutting a person hands or feet isn't harsh but the correct punishment for by God for a crime. Again as I stated its a fundamental problem the interpretation of the Law.

>> You might as well throw the Quran and all the Hadiths away and enjoin with your secular brothers and live it up. <<

The Problem with all of the Muslims is that they never understood the Qur'an and Hadith in the Historical sense. Yet claim everything is perfect and truthful as it was 1400 years. Muslims like another Human being are subjected to change and they are ones that brought the Change. Not one Islamic country has the same Sharia or the same law, yet the follow the same Qur'an and in most cases the same Hadith.


>> >> Many of those poorer countries where stoning is commonplace, do not have sufficient education on Islam and Sharia.

True.

>>This is a repetitive cycle with successive generations and that is why no progress is made. <<

Yes. << <<


Those were your words not mine ;-D


>> >> Saudi Arabia and Iran are not poor countries and neither is Nigeria. They also don't lack in Education in Islam or Sharia.And? << <<

And You claim people in those regions Lack the Education in Islam, yet Saudi Arabia, Iran and Parts of Nigeria claim they implement the Full Sharia more then the rest of the Islamic world. So how is that you can claim that law "Stoning to death Law is wrong". When most of the Islamic world doesn't even Implement the Sharia at all.  

You are calling me secular when most of the Muslims would rather not have laws such as cutting of Thieves hands/feet, stoning people to death, people being whipped in public or even being executed in Public, having four witness for Adultery or rape, special taxation for Non-Muslims in a Muslim state and many more law which are directly related to the Qur'an / Hadith.  


-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 49

Expert Comment

by:DanRollins
ID: 25454143
Mujtaba_Alam_Khan, please see http:A_1257.html  Thanks!
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25454180
@ DanRollins

Well, I see the rules (or rather guidelines) for in EE P&R have changed. Sorry If I am use to the old ways. I will keep that in mind next time.

I can put the @ sign address the person or can't I  ;-D


-Muj ;-)

0
 
LVL 11

Expert Comment

by:Ramesh Srinivas
ID: 25456428
@Muj

How do you know it isn't misquoting or rather another interpretation?

My point is still valid - the uneducated have no defense against it - whether it be misquotes or misinterpretations.

By the way the stoning to death of a person is not consider a weak hadith.

I have not said that it is - however it is impossible to provide 4 witnesses who have seen the act taken place, therefore it's near impossible to perscribe the punishment.

you say there is blurring of the truth while the Sharia..

Not at all - if Sharia has changed in certain parts of the world then it is not because the Quran and authentic hadiths are unreliable.

 The first problem is that collections of those hadiths was done 250-300 years after the persons death.

By your argument the Quran itself is not the same!

 ...why is it that Many Islamic Countries don't implmented it fully?

Politics, outside influence, self-interest and particuarly in developing countries, lack of education.

 Then why are you saying that 'Stoning to death is not part of Islam'.

You appear to be quoting me here but I cannot find reference to this?!!

 Those were your words not mine ;-D

Yes, I agree to the point about lack of education and it being a problem with successive generations (in certain countries)

 And You claim people in those regions Lack the Education in Islam...

Where did I claim Saudi Arabia was a nation that lacked education??

 So how is that you can claim that law "Stoning to death Law is wrong".

Again, where do I say this?!!!!

 You are calling me secular

No I am not.

 when most of the Muslims would rather not have laws...

Wow you speak for all Muslims? Since when were you the Caliph? :)@Muj

 How do you know it isn't misquoting or rather another interpretation?

My point is still valid - the uneducated have no defense against it - whether it be misquotes or misinterpretations.

 By the way the stoning to death of a person is not consider a weak hadith.

I have not said that it is - however it is impossible to provide 4 witnesses who have seen the act taken place, therefore it's near impossible to perscribe the punishment.

 you say there is blurring of the truth while the Sharia..

Not at all - if Sharia has changed in certain parts of the world then it is not because the Quran and authentic hadiths are unreliable.

 The first problem is that collections of those hadiths was done 250-300 years after the persons death.

By your argument the Quran itself is not the same!

 ...why is it that Many Islamic Countries don't implmented it fully?

Politics, outside influence, self-interest and particuarly in developing countries, lack of education.

Then why are you saying that 'Stoning to death is not part of Islam'.

You appear to be quoting me here but I cannot find reference to this?!!

 Those were your words not mine ;-D

Yes, I agree to the point about lack of education and it being a problem with successive generations (in certain countries)

And You claim people in those regions Lack the Education in Islam...

Where did I claim Saudi Arabia was a nation that lacked education??

So how is that you can claim that law "Stoning to death Law is wrong".

Again, where do I say this?!!!!

You are calling me secular

No I am not.

 when most of the Muslims would rather not have laws...

Wow you speak for all Muslims? Since when were you the Caliph? :)
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25457516
@ saleek

My point is still valid - the uneducated have no defense against it

Thats were you are wrong because the people who intereprete at the highest level of Islamic Education and are either a Mufti or an Ayatollah. My Issues is, its the same book, so everyone should reach the same conclusion in the Sharia, yet they don't. This is not about people lacking education.

I have not said that it is - however it is impossible to provide 4 witnesses
Yet Stoning to death happens in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Parts of Nigeria and Somalia.
By the way if you get a confession out a person then they can be stoned to death.

Not at all - if Sharia ...

Yet no one follows the same Sharia in the entire Muslim world, yet they might follow the same Qur'an and in most cases the same Hadith.


By your argument the Quran itself is not the same!

My argument is that the Interpretation of the Qur'an was corrupt by early Muslims due to all those factors I have explain in the early history of Islam. That corruption makes up for the Sharia today. When the people didn't get the Sharia right a thousand years ago, how are people excepted to get it right, now.

Politics, outside influence, self-interest

Strange you say that, odd enough all those factors are part of the same reason the Sharia was not the same a thousand years ago as it was in the beginning.

Where did I claim Saudi Arabia was a nation that lacked education??

You didn't, yet from you assumation that people who lack an education in Islam are poor countries and carry out such punishment. Your argument falls apart. Neither they are Poor, Lack Education in ISLAM and they do carry out "Stoning to death". Your entire argument is based around that. If you read Authors question and the Link. It is directly related to a Saudi Princess:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/princess-facing-saudi-death-penalty-given-secret-uk-asylum-1753007.html

Wow you speak for all Muslims? Since when were you the Caliph? :)

I don't speak for all Muslims but most Muslims will say what I mentioned and even if they don't say what I have mentioned they will do what you and many other like you do. Circle around the Punishments as being wrong interpretated, there were rare cases of it and many other things. It will not show your opposition to the Punishment just make it impossible for them be carry out. 4 witness are not need when you get a confession.

-Muj ;-D
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25519124
Islam is not being cruel to women. Men are being cruel to women. In The Qur'an it says that for a woman to be found guilty of adultery  that there have to FOUR witnesses to the act. 4!. As i saw someone say on TV discussing this same issue, no woman has ever been found guilty of adultery under Quranic law that he ever knew of because the test of proof is too great. There is a reason surely the test is so stringent. If Allah called for that level of proof, then men or Islamic societies have no business diluting that standard. They have recourse to divorce if their honour is in question.

To blame Islam for court rulings in Arab states is really comparable to blaming Christianity for any court  rulings in Western countries. It really wasn't all that long ago people could be hung in the west for picking pockets. Yes, those societies were medieval and backward, and so our many Islamic states, but their actions are rooted in their cultures and traditions, not in Islam. You wouldn't blame the teachings of Christ for a young boy swinging from a rope in London 250 years ago would you? But England at that time was as rampantly and stupidly religion-centric as Muslim countries are now. Or more recently, would you call the holocaust a product of Christian Germany in the 40's? Or just a group of insane Germans?

Also, there is no admonition for stoning in the Quran.

As for honour killings - the vilest expression of misogyny, you will find endless and horrific examples of these throughout the Muslim world...and I am a muslim and sick to my heart that these things are done. The worst i ever read about was 2 girls being buried alive.... by their own family.


Really, I wonder sometimes when I see Muslims acting as apologists for this kind of things, what do they think the Prophet would have done in these circumstances? Are they really in their right minds when they think the Prophet would condone such hate filled and ignorant acts?

Religion is an easy tag of blame. It is people who are sick in heart and mind.
0
 
LVL 49

Expert Comment

by:DanRollins
ID: 25520931
So... (and this seems like a VERY SIMPLE QUESTION) ...
Why don't all of the top Muslim leaders get together and loudly proclaim that this is never, EVER to be done???  Ever!!.  And that if a Muslim does it, then he will be unwelcome in the entire Muslim community.  And he will go to Hell, forever.  and ever.
But they don't do that.  Nor do the top leaders proclaim terrorist bombers to be evil.  
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25521121
@ macuser777

"Men are being cruel to women"

Men who feel they have authority from God.


"no woman has ever been found guilty of adultery under Quranic law that he ever knew of because the test of proof is too great"

Thats not entirely true if you ask any Muslim Scholar they will tell you that 'Stoning to death is part of Islam as it was part of Judaism before it and they will even tell this that the Prophet Himself Stoned Women and Men of this crime. There are religious text that are part of the Sharia describing this. Also if one confess to this there is no need for 4 witnesses.


"To blame Islam for court rulings in Arab states is really comparable to blaming Christianity for any court  rulings in Western countries"

I agree to this. However there is a problem with some Muslims who feel they are invaded by western culture, political ideas and so on. They want to go back to ancient ideas and thats why you have countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran and many more are trying to follow.
People want the Sharia and nobody understand what it is. Strange enough more so in Europe then the Middle-East/South Asia.


"The worst i ever read about was 2 girls being buried alive.... by their own family"

That family would have never gotten punished. So much for making honour killing a crime.


"Are they really in their right minds when they think the Prophet would condone such hate filled and ignorant acts?"

I agree and thats why I am total against the Sharia, people don't know what the Prophet did in his time and they should stop pretending like they know the whole truth and nothing else (with many types of varies interpretation from very liberal to very extreme). People should become good Human being first before becoming religious or not.
Religion is not life, Humanity is (including nature, animal, the world).


Religion is an easy tag of blame. It is people who are sick in heart and mind.              

I agree, however people sometime hide behind religion and some religious people themselves defend that evil nature just because everyone comes under the same religion.

==

@ Dan

Why don't all of the top Muslim leaders get together and loudly proclaim that this is never, EVER to be done???

Because all of them accept that it is part of Islam.


Nor do the top leaders proclaim terrorist bombers to be evil

They don't want to be seen as siding with the West. Actually some in Iraq, Afganistan and Pakistan who have done that, have themselves been killed.


-Muj ;-|
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25521862
>Mujtaba_Alam_Khan:

"Thats not entirely true if you ask any Muslim Scholar they will tell you that 'Stoning to death is part of Islam as it was part of Judaism"

It does not follow de facto that laws of Judaism are laws of Islam. There are for instance dietary Laws in Judaism which do not apply to Islam. It says in The Quran that the Jewish had certain dietary laws given to them as punishment for misdeeds. These laws do no apply to Muslims. Furthermore, and this is just friendly discussion, if Muslims accept Judaic laws from the Torah as their own why do we as well not grow the hair from our temples to name just one example.

As to the example you cite of The Prophet taking part in any stoning, in 40 years as a human open to discussion - well, ok let's say 30 cos I am about 40 :0 - in all those years as a human and a muslim I never once heard that and i will not accept it just on your say. Again, that is not meant as a stubborn riposte but in all honesty, I cannot believe that. Possibly you have some Hadith reference, but then we will have to go into the questions of Hadith authenticity and so on... which I am happy to do if you like. But please, some reference to this alleged activity rather than just your say if possible. After all, as you say 'people don't know what the Prophet did in his time'...


>Dan,

Did you see the news about Berlesconni today?... Are western leaders such beacons of light? You can be sure in the Muslim world he is as we write being held up as an example of the moral corrupt of the west and its leaders, just as you decry the leaders of the Muslim world, and as i do too Dan.

Muslim leaders are politicians and power brokers and self enriching flawed humans as much as any other type of leader. Just think of Zadari. Do you expect him to be some paragon of Muslim leadership? Or perhaps the Saud family who gave up spiritual control of their peoples in return for loyalty?

....if there's an answer that can rise above the ego and pride and basic evil in so many of those that seek and rise to power please let me know.

I understand, I think, that there is immense frustration and this boils over and needs a target. I mean, blame has to be assigned and verbal stones thrown. But, you know, a lot of it is just plain madness. And madness can't be explained rationally.


There's a sad universal truth that is well demonstrated in the Muslim world. If the good remain quiet, then....
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25524190
@ macuser777
These laws do no apply to Muslims.
You are wrong there. There are many Laws/Rituals in Islam that are from Judaism, Christianity and even from the Mecca Tribes before Islam.  Ramadan, Hajj, Salah, Circumcision, Halal (meat) and many more.

 in all those years as a human and a muslim I never once heard that and i will not accept it just on your say

To that I must say that you must have lived under a rock for all those years ;-D
Here is a link:
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Stoning_to_Death
 
 If you go to references they are from the 'Authentic Hadith'. You can go to any Muslim site and find the same ones.

Here is a link to Scolars site:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545902


-

After all, as you say 'people don't know what the Prophet did in his time'...

I look at things from a different view point and only a few people would do that and go total against the Traditions stated. My Pov is very simple, change is part of nature. How then is it possible for any religion to come up and say that they haven't changed in the last 1400 years, 2000 years or even 3000 years, the scriptures might not have changed but Human nature has changed and continues to change. Evolution happens and it happens in everything, religion, science, nature, politics and many more things. The point I am getting to is todays Islam is not the same as Islam as it was 1400 year and Islam 1300 years ago was Not the same as 1400 years. So why is it that some people feel like they have follow the Absolute Traditions of Islam when they actually don't know where those traditions came from after all the conflict in Islam after the Prophet's death.

-Muj ;-|
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25527282
> Muj,

Thank you for those references.
I just personally have a lot of trouble with Hadith. For instance there are many authentic ones that speak of the Prophet's miracles, but in the Quran it states quite openly that it was not given to the Prophet to perform miracles. So, for me, that is a small example of my problem with accepting Hadiths in general. If   'authentic' ones can be so easily questioned in relation to Quranic text then it calls the whole body of Hadith into question. I prefer yto take the view that the Quran gave, that within it gives the criteria for right and wrong, so we should be able to deduce what we want from that.

I understand many traditions are carried from Judaism into Islam, like circumcision. The point I was making is that merely to say it applies because it is Judaic law is not sufficient, to my way of thinking. I mean, we don't observe the Sabbath for instance.

You are right what you say that religions evolve in themselves and in their understanding of scripture in the light of the times and the knowledge that become available to them.

Kind regards :)
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25527358
Muj,

Just a small point, maybe i have missed it, but you said the Prophet himself took part in stonings? The references i see don't say that. They don't say either way.

"The Qur'an does not mention the act, but there are several Hadith which speak of Muhammad ordering people to be stoned to death. According to hadith, the Quranic verses of stoning were written on a piece of paper and were lost when a goat ate the paper:"

...mmm :0... you know I am really trying to let this lie, but, it says in the Quran that Allah will not allow a word of the revelation to be lost. If somehow it is then He will replace it with a better one. How can I take seriously this goat eating scripture story??? :)...Thx for another Hadith that I will be able to reflect on as a poor example of the genre :)... I mean no offence, Muj. It is genuinely funny to me though.



0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25528209
@ macuser777

I mean, we don't observe the Sabbath for instance.

But we do, kind of its on Friday instead of Sunday and I don't believe most Jews would observe that too. For Christians its suppose to Saturday. Thats why in the West you get Saturday and Sunday off (well most people do).

Just a small point, maybe i have missed it, but you said the Prophet himself took part in stonings? The references i see don't say that. They don't say either way.

Well that my mistake, what I should have said was that he was the Judge and ordering so was part of that. He cannot be sperated from that.

It is genuinely funny to me though

Well the point I made earlier in this thread was that the hadith came at a very later stage. The Islamic world has changed in spanning 250-300 years. Islamic empire has spread. The system of Law has gone from a simple tribal Laws to a State to an Empire. Different interal conflicts have arisen, different sects of  been formed. Different cultures have interacted with the Islamic world and so on and even on the Hadiths collected supposely, out of more then half a million Prophets saying, people are left with between 2-3 thousands which they claim could be authentic. There might be some truth to them but to take them as Law from God, is a bit over the top.

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 3

Expert Comment

by:Romasa
ID: 25532456
@ Muj

The Islamic world has changed in spanning 250-300 years. Islamic empire has spread....
The biggest Islamic state ever was under the khilafat of "Umar bin Al-Khitaab (RA)". That was a complete Empire, with Islamic practices and Laws. There were different conflicts in that time either ... as it is in present world, but these elegant Muslims had have potential to tackle these issue under the light of Islamic Sharia.
Different cultures were present at that time .... Muslims were in little quantity as compared to today's world .. and it was not possible to preach Islam without interacting with them .... As we know that in the duration of almost 20 years Muslim world was grown from the velley of Arab to Iran in the east (they used to worship fire), Rome in north (Christian), African countries in west and yaman + oman in south (Jews), after interacting with all these cultures.
The nature of problems, men could have, is the same as from the time of Prophet Adam till to date.  If we are not sure about the authenticity of Hadith still then we have Quran which have the commandments valid till the end of the world.
Allah Almighty know that the living style of people will change, and the commandments in Quran are as per the nature of men. Allah Almighty know our nature. As when Jesis told the people, who believe on him, that, I have to tell you more ... but you are not ready to bear that .. until the spirit will come and he let you know all that. Only Allah know the best time to reveal Quran
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25534234
@ Romasa

I am talking about a different period of time and that was known as the Abbasid Caliphate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate

I am not simply talking about external cultural influence but rather the internal conflict of the Islamic Empire. People seem to put a nice picture around Caliphates of Islam but the history is bloody and violent.

As I mentioned already about the Qur'an, is that on its own you cannot the Sharia. Unless you intreprete the meaning yourself, which I pointed out makes it Human Law rather then Gods law.Thats why people look towards the Hadith and I have already mentioned the problems with the Hadith.  Authentic and Non-Authentic is again Human Judgement not Gods.

----------------------------------

Here is an interesting video clip: Is islam Intolerant?

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilPTiwQIKGg

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRlB0CO81MI


-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25534293
@ Muj,

I was thinking about our dialogue and i remembered this i saw just last week. The website is not exactly pro-muslim :), but it's where i found the reference googling some research on hadith.

Bukhari himself, as i know the story, said that of the few thousand hadith he accepted and collected as authentic, in the future people should remove more if they were found unauthentic for any reason. So he himself removed the idea that they should be considered sacrosanct. If we just consider the ones that talk of Miracles for instance, hadith scholarship, as i understand it, primarily focuses on the character and believability of the transmitter (please correct me if i am wrong). So, lets say we remove the hadith about Miracles from Bukhari. But then every transmitter in the chain of Hadith for miracles is now in question just by being in that chain, and in a very quick search I did, if you put the names of those transmitters into Bukhari Hadith search you find 100s if not more Hadith they are involved in, so now all those must be called into question. Now of this second lot that are called into question you must I assume call into question all those transmitters , ad so on....

Even then, we both know scholarly opinions are given both ways on many ideas and issues, as this link shows. Given the scholarship of the writer mentioned in this link, and his background and family and so on, it is equally legitimate for me to refute any Hadith thats peaks of the Prophet's cruelty to women. And indeed, that is the choice I make. If I am wrong, may Allah guide me to what is right.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/01/muslim-scholar-argues-that-653-hadiths-in-sahih-bukhari-and-sahih-muslim-are-false.html
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25534351
@ Muj,

Wouldn't you say that the practice of circumcision was a tradition carried forward from Abraham rather than Judaism? Of course Abraham is the 'father' of both Judaism and Islam, but I think it is a distinction that is important.
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25535600
@ macuser777

"you must I assume call into question all those transmitters"

I agree and perhaps I didn't want to say this that it might offend some people.

 And indeed, that is the choice I make

Everyone is Islam past and present made their own choices on the Sharia and followed it.

Wouldn't you say that the practice of circumcision was a tradition carried forward from Abraham rather than Judaism?

I would, but the point I was making was the 'Stoning to death' is written in the Torah (the five books of Moses) and what I pointed was infact is in a Hadith and what the Scholar said in the link (islamonline.net). You could say that,, that Law was also carried forward.

I am sure Waterstreet (admin EE), could enlighten more on the Laws in the Torah.

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 38

Expert Comment

by:PaulHews
ID: 25537247
>They don't want to be seen as siding with the West. Actually some in Iraq, Afganistan and Pakistan who have done that, have themselves been killed.

Doesn't Islam embrace martyrdom as a means of fighting injustice and righting wrongs?  And who are the people doing the killing?  Not from the west.  If this misogyny wasn't being espoused by the clergy, then it would not persist as long as it has.  
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25537666
@Paulhews
"Doesn't Islam embrace martyrdom as a means of fighting injustice and righting wrongs?"
Thats incorrect, if you are fighting injustice and killed in action as to say, then you are a martyr.

You have failed to understand that there are Wars happening in Iraq, Afganistan and Part of Pakistan and the are carried out by the Western Powers. People in those place do not want to be siding with the West or in most case nobody. As for the rest, it is more of Political issue with the west then a religious one. People everywhere in the world are against Terrorist and extreme ideology, except they do not want external influences and thats they reason they do not side with the West, as along as there are wars in the Muslim countries.

The reality is that extremism / terrorism done in any religion can only be fought from within.
You are never going to win the war against extremism and terrorism with bombs.

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 38

Expert Comment

by:PaulHews
ID: 25537931
You can't blame this problem on the west.  I haven't failed to understand what you said.  I just find it a weak apologetic stance towards the misogynistic attitudes that are prevalent in Muslim countries.  What Dan said above is at the heart of this:

>>Why don't all of the top Muslim leaders get together and loudly proclaim that this is never, EVER to be done???  Ever!!.  And that if a Muslim does it, then he will be unwelcome in the entire Muslim community.  And he will go to Hell, forever.  and ever.<<

You said they don't speak out because they fear being killed.  But if a cleric dies because he's standing up for what is *right*, then he is a martyr.   Additionally, if the majority believed it was right, then there would not be any fear of reprisal.

This is a deeply ingrained cultural problem.  If it isn't the fault of the religion, then it's certainly the fault of those clerics who allow it to continue by not speaking out about it.  They're supposed to be moral leaders.
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25538149
@ PaulHews

Of course the world would be a better place if everyone did what they should. Lots of children would be better off if the Catholic Church had been open about the problem of child abuse and not tried to cover it up and protect the priests involved, for instance.

I think, there is more mileage in such a discussion if one considers 'why' rather than just say 'He/she/they should....' Why societies are or have come to be misogynistic, why leaders do not speak against this...



0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25538199
@ PaulHews

I think you have misunderstood. There are two different issues at heart here.
1. Sharia Law (the Stoning to death) which Dan was asking macuser. As he said he never heard of it.
2. Is what Dan mentioned is Terrorism.

-
The first Issues Sharia, I have written countless arguements against it. You can go back and read all that.

The second is about Terrorism, which I meantioned to you and which I pointed out to Dan, that people who side with the West are being killed. I can bring you links to news.

I think have you mis-read my post. The first issue doesn't concern the West but the Second one does.

Hope that clears everything up.

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 38

Expert Comment

by:PaulHews
ID: 25539121
Muj,
>2. Is what Dan mentioned is Terrorism.
Dan mentioned terrorism in passing.  It was not the main focus of his statement.

>The first Issues Sharia, I have written countless arguements against it. You can go back and read all that.

Good, then we are in agreement about that.  ;-)  

macuser777
>Of course the world would be a better place if everyone did what they should.

Previously, you stated "Religion is an easy tag of blame. It is people who are sick in heart and mind."

The common theme in your commentary is that there is nothing wrong with Islam.  It's the people who are the problem...  But if Islam is an ideology that is unquestioned by its followers, and practices of misogyny are accepted by followers and clergy alike as being allowed within Islam, then there is something wrong with Islam, because its leading them to bad things, even if in your opinion they have misapplied the teachings of the Quran.

As an example, in Jordan in 2001 the king introduced a bill imposing harsh penalties against honor killings.  The parliament rejected it with a statement that such penalties would encourage adultery.  Why is adultery so bad that the state would allow people to get away with murder?  Because of an interpretation of the Quran.  Honor killings are only lightly punished in Muslim countries.  Everywhere else they are murder, and treated as such.

Muslims the world over rioted when a Danish newspaper published depictions of Muhammed.  Why do they not get together to denounce honor killings in an equally forceful manner?  Religion *is* an easy tag for blame... And there's often a good reason behind it.
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25542222
@ PaulHewes

"...  But if Islam is an ideology that is unquestioned by its followers, and practices of misogyny are accepted by followers and clergy alike as being allowed within Islam, then there is something wrong with Islam, because its leading them to bad things, even if in your opinion they have misapplied the teachings of the Quran."

I think you are absolutely right to use the word 'ideology', because sadly that is what it has become, rather than a faith or religion, and maybe it is a reality that needs to be faced. In fact, no maybe about it, it is a key part of all the ... shit going on to be blunt.

I admit, freely, that when you state it like that it is a compelling case. And a case that needs to be answered. And also, as you have seen, as a Muslim I try to see things in a certain light.

All I can say is that I agree 100% that there is something very wrong in maybe all IslamIC (sic) countries. People often these days talk about the need for reform in Islam. I just put it differently, that there is need for reform of Muslims and Muslims practices. Just in the same way I would not blame the teachings contained in the Gospel for any time or acts of Anti-semitism, but there was certainly a change of mind set needed amongst certain Christian groups at certain times in history.

I also think a key part of what is wrong in Muslim countries is the relationships that are accepted and enforced between men and women. There is book written on this subject, i don't know the title, it says that as long as these basically misogynistic relationships remain Muslims will always be in the state they are in amongst themselves and in relation to other countries and faiths because it so basic to the nature of human relations.

...and after all, maybe when all the arguments are expended and no-one is able to effect change, maybe after that all we a re left with is statements that ask for what seems like common sense and decency to us "All muslims should condemn honour killings with a single loud voice."... I have no argument with the statement or the sentiment. I have said the same thing myself in the past actually when i hear some of the horror stories that are too easy to find. I have even written the same in frustration when I can see no way through roadblocked mentalities.

I think i've been lucky that I was brought up as a Muslim with minimal contact with any clerics or hadith quoters.... But then again, I can't believe anyone would have been able to teach me anything that would have given me a much different view to what I have. Who knows? But for the Grace of God...

macuser


0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25542320
@ PaulHewes

.. and thanks for the specific reference about what happened in Jordan.


In a certain way, you might say the question between us is this. Do we address individual responsibility or institutional evil and assign blame and remedy accordingly? In reality it would be a mix. And I guess both should be addressed simultaneously.


... I am thinking of starting a new thread. "What's the difference between faith/religion and ideology? Or... how does the benign and open become blinkered and  evil?'
0
 
LVL 38

Expert Comment

by:PaulHews
ID: 25543361
Change is coming.  It will be measured in generations, but it's coming.  The world has become too small a place for it to be otherwise.  And there are many Muslims acting to produce change, because it has to come from within the community, not from without.

>how does the benign and open become blinkered and  evil?'

Historically speaking, religious institutions were generally not open--at least not until their followers set up the guillotines.  I think that the Islamic countries set a good example of why there should be a clear separation of church and state.

0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25625192
"I think that the Islamic countries set a good example of why there should be a clear separation of church and state."
 
I have been against such an idea from the beginning. Some Muslims try and go backwards, literally trying to bring ancient laws, which they never understood in the first and which the Muslims themselves abolished. The political idelogoy of the religion is pushed forwards and for whom and who does it benefit?

-----

There is a bit of Irony in Muslims world, if one was to ask who gives Muslims the idea that being a Suicide Bomber and killing innocent (and most of the time Muslims) leads to Martyrdom, the answer would be its from the the Mullahs, Muftis, Ayatollahs and the likes and at the same time if you were to ask who is pushing for 'Sharia' its the same people.

IMO, if people really want the Sharia so badly, they should come out with their sins and if the Punishment is stoning, beheading or having your hands or feet chopped out, then so be it. After all you are doing this for the better of Islam and for your ownself. The very first people to do this should be the Religious leaders themselves, since they are the ones pushing for Sharia in the first place.


-Muj ;-|
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25625385
@ Muj,

your last comment , :). Whereas what we have now is the blind leading the blind :( .
0
 
LVL 38

Expert Comment

by:PaulHews
ID: 25637478
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6148590.stm

Here it talks about women being charged with adultery if they are charging rape and do not have the four witnesses... That seems to indicate that four witnesses are indeed required, at least in Pakistan before the reforms.

0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25707685
I remember that entire episode in Pakistan. It was made in the time of Zia-u-haq the Military Dictator. It was the same time when Afghan war was against the Soviet and the formation of the Taliban. We all know how that turned out.

There was an up-roar from religious clerics about it, most of them didn't want the change to it. Women, Human-right activities and alot of people in Pakistan were infavor of getting ride of it. It was rather ridicule to say, that a woman who was raped needed to provide 4 witnesses if she didn't she would most like face imprisonment for possibly life or the worst case be stoned to death. Only one woman came close to that because it was part of the Law, however up to 5,400 women were put in jail who claimed rape over the period over 25 years and couldn't provide witnesses.

Then of course 6 months later the 'Red Mosque' incident happens. They were demanding Sharia be forced on the people in Islamabad (the Captial City), like that ever going to happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lal_Masjid

And then there were people in Swat with the Taliban were demanding it Sharia Law and such things were happening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u55M7cdHQQ4

People didn't support that and some clerics claimed that it was part of Islam and the person giving the punishment has a bit of mercy, instead of giving 40 lashes (whipped) he gave about 35 and the girl's crime was, she walked out of the house with her father-in-law. He also got lashes.

It was rather strange, the people in Swat who demanded the Sharia for all those years, afterwards wanted the Taliban out and peace in the region.

People in Pakistan would never accept such Sharia Law.
It can be rather odd that some people present the Sharia as providing solutions to problems such Rape, Aid, Robberies won't happen, if you have peoples hands-cut off, stoned to death, beheaded or have lashes done to them, they will live in fear but will obey the law.
Strange enough that all those things occur in Saudi Arabia, just because they happen behind close doors does't mean that nothing of such nature happens.

-Muij ;-|
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25761177
A bit of news:
Somali adulterer stoned to death
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8347216.stm

-Muj ;-(
0
 
LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:macuser777
ID: 25761433
:( - sad smiley doesn't come close.....


I have just ben reading this the last couple of days from "NO GOD BUT GOD" By Reza Aslan ( Hope verbatim quotes from published texts are ok )

The larger context of this snippet is about the Caliph Umar introduced elements of misogyny into Islamic practice. Specifically there is a reference to stoning (which btw, @Muj, implies no justification based on following Judaic practices in this academic history - which does have an odd error regarding the cleansing of the Kaaba ...)


"Umar's misogynist tendencies were apparent from the moment he ascended to the leadership of the Muslim Community. He tried (unsuccessfully) to confine women to their homes and wanted to prevent them from attending worship at the mosque. He instituted segregated prayers and, in direct violation of The Prophet's example, forced women to be taught by male religious leaders. Incredibly, he forbade Muhammed's widows to perform the pilgrimage rights and instituted a series of severe ordinances aimed at women.Chief among these was the stoning to death of adulterers, a punishment which ha  no foundation whatsoever in the Quran but which Umar justified by claiming it had originally ben part of the authorized text. Of course, Umar never explained how it was possible for a verse such as this 'accidentally' to have been left out of the Divine Revelation of God, [@Muj - that will the origin of the ridiculous goat eating scripture nonsense] but then again he didn't have to. It was enough that he spoke with the authority of the Prophet."


I first read this a couple of years ago, and was reading it again recently. It made me realise how insidiously evil it can be to pass down rule and assume authority passes equally. It is really hard to contemplate how a companion of The Prophet, his friend in life, could blithely make such changes.


@Muj, - was Umar one of the Caliphs who fall under the Salafi school?
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25767805
@ macuser777

I don't believe one man changed the system there were many. After all there were many other companions of the Prophet at the time. Even Shi'a (who dislike Umar) have stoning to death as part of their Sharia.

Change was going to come to the Muslim world one way or the other. They conquered new lands, interacted with new cultures, new ideologies and new knowledge.

"was Umar one of the Caliphs who fall under the Salafi school?"

I don't think so, Salafi School is rather new to Islam in the Islamic history.

-Muj ;-)
0
 
LVL 6

Expert Comment

by:Mujtaba_Alam_Khan
ID: 25927321
ty ;-)
0
 
LVL 11

Expert Comment

by:Jason210
ID: 25933752
Thanks.
0

Featured Post

Free Tool: Port Scanner

Check which ports are open to the outside world. Helps make sure that your firewall rules are working as intended.

One of a set of tools we are providing to everyone as a way of saying thank you for being a part of the community.

Question has a verified solution.

If you are experiencing a similar issue, please ask a related question

Experts-Exchange is designed for questions and answers with the common scenario being that nearly all responses are directed to the Asker.   But in some EE zones, it is common to have a number of different people discussing back and forth.  In such …
The Qur’an Revelation There has been a lot of public focus and debate on Islam in various media in recent years. This article aims to clarify some elements towards the understanding of the primary source of Islamic belief, the Qur’an. Definiti…
In response to a need for security and privacy, and to continue fostering an environment members can turn to for support, solutions, and education, Experts Exchange has created anonymous question capabilities. This new feature is available to our Pr…
Please read the paragraph below before following the instructions in the video — there are important caveats in the paragraph that I did not mention in the video. If your PaperPort 12 or PaperPort 14 is failing to start, or crashing, or hanging, …
Suggested Courses

649 members asked questions and received personalized solutions in the past 7 days.

Join the community of 500,000 technology professionals and ask your questions.

Join & Ask a Question