[Last Call] Learn how to a build a cloud-first strategyRegister Now

x
  • Status: Solved
  • Priority: Medium
  • Security: Public
  • Views: 916
  • Last Modified:

Hyper V implementaion

I am looking to put our to current servers into one and am looking for input to whether it can even be done. I want to put our two existing servers (Server1 & Server2) on the new Hyper V Server. Server1 provides user authentication (AD etc..) and runs a small accounting program and Server2 runs terminal services to give remote access to users using the accounting program on Server1.

Is this possible and is there any good documentation on terminal services (or remote connections) running in the virtual machine somewhere?

Thanks in advance.
0
gberryman
Asked:
gberryman
  • 16
  • 11
  • 7
  • +1
1 Solution
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
This is pretty much what I have at my small office but running under VMWare ESXi. Technically, yes, it can be done. Performance for the AD server (2008 Standard 64-bit) is very good and I am quite happy with it.
Terminal Services is a different story. Not because it does not work properly and/or perform as expected. The bottom line is this will depend totally on how many concurrent users you will have and the applications they will run.
Just today Citrix released a document showing their tests on Terminal Servers hosted under Amazon and on their own. The total number of users vary a lot depending on the resources you allocate to the server, from 7 users to 60. You can read more about it here:
http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX120300

Also, performance will greatly differ depending on the hardware you get for your Hyper-V host. If you have very fast storage, tons of RAM and CPU muscle and you allocate accordingly to the TS, it will probably work for you. My experience is it works great for light loads. Keep in mind as well this may vary a lot depending on the apps you have.

I am still to see a Terminal Server VM beat a real physical server running TS, especially in scalabitliy and when under heavy loads (70, 90 users at the same time).

Again, this may work great for you (as it does for me) but make sure this is for lighter loads and not for tons of concurrent users. If that is the case I am pretty sure it will work great for you.

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
Darius GhassemCommented:
I have setup multiple VMs that run TS server without any problems. I would suggest removing the Accounting software from the DC then create another VM for this accounting software.

http://itproctology.blogspot.com/2009/07/terminal-server-on-hyper-v.html

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Microsoft/Applications/Virtual_Server/Q_24335176.html
0
 
amichaellCommented:
We run a mix of physical and virtual.  I would be a bit leery of virtualizing my entire AD, especially if they all ran off the same physical server and/or used the same storage backend.  Ideally you want to DCs anyway, so one physical and one virtual would be good.

We ran half of our XenApp farm virtual (I say ran as we are moving to VDI).  It ran well enough and really gave us more bang for the buck for our physical boxes.  We were only able to have 25-30 users per XenApp server, which equaled a lot of wasted resources for the typical physical box.  So we virtualized and ran four or five virtual XenApp servers on the same physical box that previously ran only a single instance of XenApp.

If you can already pack many users on to your Terminal Server then I wouldn't deal with virtualizing.
0
Creating Active Directory Users from a Text File

If your organization has a need to mass-create AD user accounts, watch this video to see how its done without the need for scripting or other unnecessary complexities.

 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
All of this input makes me also wonder if I just add the NewServer as a Terminal Server and add a virtual machine for the accounting program if that would fly. Is there going to be licensing issues using the existing 2000 cals and ts licenses.

Ideally I'd like to add the NEWSERVER as a DC. Run Terminal Services on it and virtualize the software program used by the terminal services users on it.
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
Well the problem is putting all eggs in one single bag. If that server dies, everything is dead.
When virtualizing we usually have two boxes connected to a share storage solution (iSCSI, SAN, etc) so the VMs are stored on these and powered on on any of the nodes (the hosts). If one host dies, the VMs that were running are then powered on on the remaining host. This avoids the single point of failure.

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
Darius GhassemCommented:
You don't want to run a DC and TS on the same machine since this allows user full access to your AD environment which is a big security risk.
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
If the NEWSERVER dies I will only lose the DC with Terminal Services and the software virtual machine not the one (SERVER1) with all the roles unless I am understanding the domain setup wrong.

Am I? Can I not add the NEWSERVER as a DC but not the primary DC?
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
Sure you can have as many DCs as you want.
What I would do is to keep one physical as a DC and on the new server setup a virtual machine to be another DC, a VM for the application backend and a VM for the TS.
But again, this would not remove the single point of failure. Sure if the new box dies, a DC would still be available. But how good is that if people cannot connect to the TS to run the app? :-)

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
dariusq, thank you for the dc and ts risk comment
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
This is a small company with a small budget so I am trying to look at the best solution for the amount of money they can budget.
What would you suggest to rid of us that single point of failure without spending $15,000+ on software/hardware?

I know its tough to say without knowing the exact situation but I am trying to come up with a best case solution for their budget. (which is far less than $15000 by the way :)

Thank you Claudio and others who have input
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
Well you can get an extra server for less than $2000 guaranteed. I got mine, a Dell Poweredge T105 with 8GB RAM, RAID and two 500GB disks for less than $1000.
A decent iSCSI compatible storage solution you can get for $700 for 4TB (the Iomega StorCenter ix2-200). So for less than $1700 you can get an extra server and an iSCSI solution with 4TB.
This would allow you to setup two boxes running Hyper-V R2, both connected to a 4TB common storage. The storage itself is redundant (on the disks) so your only single point of failure would be the storage device itself. For the price I would simply buy a second one and leave it as a backup (I would buy the 1TB one at $270) so if the first one dies I would get the second one going with the drives that were on the first one.
My 2 cents!

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
Darius GhassemCommented:
I would have to agree with Claudio you can purchase a cheap server.

Seperation of your AD services and any other services is very important. TS should not be on a DC trust me I have ran into huge problems over the years with small businesses running TS on a DC. Total rebuild of AD even MS couldn't fix the problems.
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
Server1
DC
Application (Virtual)
Server2
Remote Desktop Service
DC (virtual)

Is this what your saying? I think I'm missing your point, sorry
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
Server 1 (New)
DC (VM)
Application (VM)

Server 2 (New) - Assuming you will buy another box
DC (VM)
TS (VM)

Both connected to the Iomega ix2-200. This way if any of the servers die (1 or 2) the other box would be able to resume the VMs that were running on the server that died and life would go on as usual! Great redundancy.

Assuming you do NOT buy a new box:
Server 1 (One of the old boxes)
DC (running on the physical OS)
Application (VM - this will require you to install the Hyper-V Role, assuming this box runs 2008)

Server 2 (New)
TS (VM)
DC (VM)

This setup will work but as you know, is not redundant in any way. If Server 2 is down, no one can connect to the TS and therefore launch any apps. If Server 1 is down, users will be able to connect to the TS but as the app is not running, not sure what they will be able to do.

If you do not want to buy another box, simply get the storage and reuse your existing servers as nodes in a virtualization cluster, with your new one. Some virtualization solutions, from what I remember, do allow you to have different hardware, as long as they are all capable of running the virtualization platform (i.e. Hyper-V). Assuming you have two existing servers and one new one, this would give you a three server cluster with shared storage. A much better solution IMHO.

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
Thanks Claudio.
I hadn't thought about having more than one VM on a machine because it will cost $4500 just for Win 2008 r2 ent alone before cals, ts licenses etc...

I guess I'll put together costs and let them weight out risks versus cost.
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
How come in your first scenario you didn't put the Server1 DC right on the physical os?
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
Well Hyper-V Server is free.
http://www.microsoft.com/hyper-v-server/en/us/default.aspx
So if you use it on all three servers you get a 3-node cluster for free.
All you need is licenses for the OS running on the VMs. As two of the physical servers you would reinstall with Hyper-V Server, this means the OS licenses that were used on them you can use on the VMs. This would require two extra licenses I think to get you the 4 VMs up and running, plus TS CALs.
Am I missing something?

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
Darius GhassemCommented:
Alos, with Enterprise edition you get 4 virtual installs with the purchase of Enterprise.
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
that comes with the $2200 price tag :)
Standard $700 1VM
Enterprise $2200 4VM's
My understanding is when you create the VM you need another license for that OS.

Let look at this scenario
Server 1 (New) Enterprise $2200 4VM's
DC (VM) Standard $700
Application (VM) Have license already

Server 2 (New) - Assuming you will buy another box Enterprise $2200 4VM's
DC (VM) Standard $700
TS (VM) Standard $700
Unless I am understanding Licensing wrong
 
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
If you run Windows Hyper-V Server that is free, all you need is to buy licenses for the OS running on the VMs.
As you would have 4 VMs in total you would need 4 OS licenses. But two I assume you already have as they were running on the existing hardware.
So all you need is two STD licenses. Nothing else.

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
Darius GhassemCommented:
Each Enterprise license gives you four installs of Windows 2008 Standard and\or Enterprise edition on 1 physical computer.
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
So I can install it four times with the same key?
0
 
Darius GhassemCommented:
Yes, you can install 4 virtual machines with the same virtual key.
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
Still, would not be cheaper to use Hyper-V Server and simply buy two extra 2008 STD licenses than buying Enterprise to get the free 4 licenses?

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
gonna try and figure that out. Cant use our existing machine for cluster because it doesn't meet the processor requirements of Hyper-V.
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
Dariusq - can i not have the second machine host os a DC and the virtual machine on that machine run Terminal Services without the permissions issues you spoke of?
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
That will work without any permission issues.

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
Darius GhassemCommented:
You can do it that way but again that isn't really recommended but it can be done. I have had the same configuration at one point.
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
I am just trying to understand the logic for not going with a true multi-node Hyper-V Server cluster with shared storage. Costwise it may be cheaper or the same in the worst case scenario.
Performance and Redundancy wise it will be much better.
Sure as your existing servers are not capable of running Hyper-V Server, buying a new server and storage are indeed required but that will set you back $1700. That plus two STD licenses is still cheaper than  2008 Enterprise.

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
Hi Claudio
I have been looking at the hyper v server solution with two servers but am having trouble figuring out what will go on what servers and still provide redundancy without having Enterprise on both servers. It seems to me Hyper V will enable me two have the vm's as a base but I still need the software OS's to run the DC's, TS and Application ( not worried about OS for App just the availability of a VM).

If I get two brand new servers with the iomega and run HyperV Server on them what were you thinking for configuration and OS' on each? Lets use your earlier example.
Server 1
DC
Application

Server 2
DC
TS

Both connected to the Iomega ix2-200

It seems to me that I need to be able to have 3 VM's capability on each machine to have total redundancy. So if Server 1 fails server2 can add the Terminal Services VM and Server1 fails then Server2 needs the Application VM.

Thank you both for your patience :)

0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
Sorry I said backwards.

"It seems to me that I need to be able to have 3 VM's capability on each machine to have total redundancy. So if Server 1 fails server2 can add the Application VM and Server 2 fails then Server 1 needs the Terminal Services VM"
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
The way I am understanding Hyper-V Server 2008 R2. I can load it on both machines and cluster them. Then load Enterprise 2008 Server with DC. Then load VM's for TS, DC #2, and the APP pointing to my Iomega.

Am I getting closer lol
0
 
Cláudio RodriguesCommented:
Ok now I see where the problem is. :-)
You are confused about Hyper-V Server AND the Hyper-V Role that is part of Windows Server 2008. These are two completely different things from an OS/licensing perspective.
The first one, Hyper-V Server, is free and you can download at no cost off the Microsoft website (I posted the link on this thread) and you can install on as many machines as you want. All it does is allow you to run VMs on it. Nothing else. You cannot install a role on it to become a DC, a TS or anything else. Nothing. Again, all it does is run VMs.
The Hyper-V ROLE in the other hand, is a role you can add to any Windows Server 2008 Std, Enterprise, Datacenter and so on. So if this machine is already a DC you can add the Hyper-V role to allow it to run VMs. You pay for it (Std, Enterprise, etc) and with it comes the right to run a certain number of VMs without additional licensing costs.
The solution I proposed uses the FREE Hyper-V Server product running on two physical boxes (new ones) and a shared storage (the Iomega one).
As this is the free product you will have to buy the licenses for the OS running on the VMs. So for example if you have 4 VMs it will need 4 licenses and in this case Standard will do it. No need for Enterprise.
If the servers have for example 8GB RAM, they both can run all 4 VMs at the same time if needed (if the other physical server dies). My box at home runs 6 VMs and I still have room for more.
So resuming:

2 Physical Servers running the free Hyper-V Server. 8GB RAM recommended (or more)
1 Shared Storage Iomega ix2-200

VMs:
4 VMs: 2 DCs, 1 TS, 1 Application Server (so here you would buy 4 STD licenses at $700 each, assuming you cannot reuse the licenses you had on the two old physical servers being decommissioned).

To start you would configure the VMs to run:
1 TS and 1 DC on Server 1
1 DC and 1 Application Server on Server 2

If any of the physical servers die, the VMs running on it would start on the remaining server so at the end you would have 1 Physical Server running with 4 VMs on it, until the second physical server is back online. Once this is done you can move the VMs back to that server, WITHOUT having to power them off and/or affecting any users. The VMs can be moved between hosts with them ON. That is the coolest part of this setup. :-)

Understood now?

Cláudio Rodrigues
Citrix CTP
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
Completely.
See that was not hard....2 days and 6 Tylenol later :)

Thank you very much for your patience and input.
0
 
gberrymanAuthor Commented:
Great Job Claudio and thanks to others for their input
0

Featured Post

VIDEO: THE CONCERTO CLOUD FOR HEALTHCARE

Modern healthcare requires a modern cloud. View this brief video to understand how the Concerto Cloud for Healthcare can help your organization.

  • 16
  • 11
  • 7
  • +1
Tackle projects and never again get stuck behind a technical roadblock.
Join Now