Citrix Presentation 4.0 to XenApp 5.x

compdigit44
compdigit44 used Ask the Experts™
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Right now I have a six server Citrix Presentation 4.0 farm that I want to upgrade or migrate to XenApp 5.x.

My farm has alot of installed applciations.  My company purchased XenApp Enterprise and wants to use XenServer the free edition. I'm not sure why though since we are a large vmware shop.
-Here are my questions...
1) CAn my Presentation 4.0 have a inplace upgrade run on them to XenApp
2) WOuld I need to upgrade my license server first?
3) What is the best way to do this?? Any suggestions? Also I do have any central storage
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Citrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010
Commented:
1.  NO YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO THAT!!  Always start clean when changing to a new major version.  It will save you a ton of grief.

2.  Yes, upgrade to 11.6.1 build 10007.  That build does not use IIS or Java.

3.  Two ways to do this.

A.  New 5.0 farm
B.  Join new servers to existing farm.  Not recommended if the migration will take a long time (more than a few days).

I would opt for a new farm to keep everything very clean.  It will allow you to test without impacting your old production environment.
VMW is expensive and Citrix Xenserver 5.6 has pretty much all of the features, better performance for these types of environments and similar management consoles - that is probably why your company wants to use XS.

Carl is right, you should build from scratch - if you are the enterprise version, you now own the user profile manager tool, which is much better than roaming profiles and streams the profile, for fast logons. You also want to package as many apps as possible -so you arent installing them on the server and changing the registry and file system. Think of your servers just like a desktop pc. When you first buy the pc, it runs fast, then you install apps, change the registry etc. And suddenly that pc is running slow. Your servers have the same experience. It is best to separate the apps when possible. This is a feature of XA now, all versions. In PS4.0 you may see the application isolation, the app streaming is based on that, but 5-6 years more mature. It works very well now. So when you design your XA5 FP3 environment, you want to investigate these options and use them.
Do it from scratch, but here is migration strategy options.
http://support.citrix.com/proddocs/index.jsp?lang=en&topic=/xenapp5fp-w2k8/ps-install-migrate-strategy-v2.html

Just to fully disclose, technically you could:
1. Uninstall PS4.0 from a server. Install XA5 and boom, you have an XA5 server. But you would be inheriting the mess you currently have. Sure its fast and easy, but user experience wont be good and you will blame Citrix, when really it was laziness that caused the nightmare.
2. Upgrade a server to PS4.5 - add HR05 and individual components and boom you are XA5. Dont do it, same reasons as #1.

The way things were done in PS4.0 are different now.  You dont want to install your apps. You want to isolate and package them with the app streaming profile tool. You want to use the new features like user profile manager. Its a new and better world. Start fresh, do it right and in the long run your life will be much much better and easier.

What I would do: Upgrade your license server - it is backwards compatible and will hand out PS4 and XA5 licenses. . Build new farm on XS. Learn how to use the app streaming profile tool - but some apps you may still have to install. Use Server 2008 64bit when possible. Some servers may be 03. If 03 - dual proc 4GB ram. IIf 08 - much beefier.
Upgrade your Web Interface - add both farms to WI. Move 1-2 Apps over to the new farm (a user can have apps open on both farms and only consume 1 license) see how the apps work, slowly move apps over until everything is on the clean, fresh, built right, new farm. You should be seeing about 20 users conservative per core if the XS physical host server is nehalem procs. So you probably wont need 6 physical servers. Check out this scale testing result
http://community.citrix.com/display/ocb/2009/08/20/Nehalem+Maximizes+XenApp+Server+Consolidation

Lets say early August, life should be good, celebrate and push for a raise. (And thank the Lord, a good daily habit.)

Author

Commented:
WOW...Great responces...

Again I'm very new to XenApp / XenServer.. So let me make sure I'm understanding evering correctly.
1) XEnApp 5.x is a totally different aniamel as compared to Presentation 4.0
2) Under XenApp you no longer need to direct install the application on the XEnApp server but create packages them. BTW, how do you know if you need to install a package directly on the server? Can XenApp handle 16-bit apps.
3) SHouod be new farm use a new data source?
4) My current farm has about 30+ host applications does them mean i have to create 30 different packages? Al most all of my apps have custom install settings? Is there a way for me to export these applicatino or settings?
5) Can I create a new farm within my production enviroment with out affecting my existing enviroment?

Please help
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Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
1.  Not exactly.  They are like fraternal twins: the same but different.  XenApp 6 is a totally different animal.

2.  XenApp on 2003 can handle 16-bit apps.  Haven't tried it on 2008 but it doesn't work on 2008 R2.  You can either install apps directly on the server OR stream the apps to the server OR stream the apps to the client OR stream the apps to the client for offline use.

3.  New farm requires a new data store.  Data store can be on the same SQL Server as the other but it will, obviously, be a new database.

4.  If you want to stream the apps, yes 30 packages.  Or you could just install the apps directly on the server.  My preference is to stream as it makes it MUCH easier to roll out additional servers.

5.  Absolutely.

Author

Commented:
Ok..

HOw can I stream applications???

Never tried this before..
Also can you mike XenApp 2008 R2 server with XenApp 2003 server with inthe same farm?

Author

Commented:
Also insince we already have 6 large servers running vmware does it matter if I create my test XEnApp server in VMware or Xenserver?

Author

Commented:
Also insince we already have 6 large servers running vmware does it matter if I create my test XEnApp server in VMware or Xenserver?
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
vmware or xenserver or hyperv or whatever makes no difference.

how to stream: http://support.citrix.com/proddocs/topic/xenapp5fp2-w2k3/ps-stream-intro-wrapper-for-xenapp-library-v2.html

Author

Commented:
CAn you mike different OS versin within the same farm..

Also are the best practices recommendatation from Ctirix on XenApp the stream the apps to client instead of installing them directly when possible?
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
Yes you can have different OS in the same farm BUT XA6/2008R2 cannot be in a farm with any prior versions.

There is no one best practice for streaming.  It will be different for every environment.

Author

Commented:
OK I'm starting to understand thing s bit better..

1) SHoud I created my streamed packaged on a server OS or Workstat OS like XP or Windows 7
2) I guess what I was referring to in regards to best practices, does Citrix recommend using stream as the first choice for application delievery if possible?
3) Where can I find the Applicatoin Streaming Proflier?
4) On my test XenApp server can I install my do I need to install a license server? Also can I just use a MSDWE instance for the data source for test purpose only? I'm looking to test on a one XenApp server farm?
Just to add one more quick note - re XA6 in same farm. You cannot have XA6 in the same farm, but you can share the license server, so users can launch apps from both farms and only consume 1 license. Also, the users will never know there are 2 different farms - they will just have one application set. It actually makes things a little easier keeping them in different farms I think, no worries about compatibility etc.
In XA5 i think its easiest to use access as the datastore for a test enviornment. Yes, you can share the license server. Here is the streaming profile tool, get the plugin as well.
http://www.citrix.com/English/ss/downloads/details.asp?downloadId=1863804&productId=186

Author

Commented:
So I can install my XEnApp server with the license and test application ..

But for the profiler should I profile these apps on a workstation OS like XP or WINdows 7 or on a server OS?

ALl of my client workstation use XP and are slowly moving towards WIndows 7
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
If you will be streaming to the server, use a server OS.  If you will be streaming to the client, use a client OS.  If you will be streaming to both, use a common OS.  i.e. XP & 2003 are similar and Vista/Win7 and Server 2008 are similar.

Author

Commented:
Is it better to stream to the client or server?
I would jsut use streaming to the server. If you stream to the client you have to send the full application to their device, its good for offline. You may not be able to stream all of your apps, but I would try. Mainly so my server OS runs better, but also because it makes patching a little easier and adding new servers a little easier.
http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX112526

http://www.citrix.com/tv/#search/streaming
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
I prefer to stream to the server.

Author

Commented:
Cool..
For my test enviroment do I need to install a license server? I do not want to upgarde my production one yet. Or is there so type of eval temp key??
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
You will need a license server for your test env.  For testing purposes, you can install the licese server on your test xenapp server.  I do that for my articles and ebooks.  Not recommended for production use.  The eval license is for 99 users for 90 days.  You do NOT need to install a TS license server.  You can go for 120 days without a TS license server.  You should be able to complete your testing within 90 days.

Author

Commented:
Should I create a new server to create my streamed profiles on or can I used my all in one test XenApp server?
Yes, I would create a staging server, you dont need to put XA on it, but rather a clean OS to package apps on. A vm is fine.

Author

Commented:
Cool even though I was going to stream my apps via the server I'm going to use a windows 7 vm as my profiler..

Author

Commented:
for test purpose for appl streaming to a server, can I just create a small share on my test XenApp server??? Will this be good enough?

So if I under stand everything correcnt streamin will actually help protect the server because it isolated application from one and other and from the OS files as well correct? I did not under stand how this will help with applciation up dates though?
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
I guess that would work.  Only one way to find out!

Yes, apps are isolated from each other and from the OS.  

For updates, you update the profile and the next time the app is run it gets the updated version.

Author

Commented:
How should I handle application that require access to remote or local DB? can they be streamed or no?
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
Depends.  You can only tell by testing.  Not every can be streamed but most can.  Some take very little work and some can take days to work out all the kinks.

Author

Commented:
has anyone been able to stream an application that need to reference a local or remote db successfully???

Author

Commented:
I have found something very interesting.
1) On Windows 2008 R2 when I try to install XenApp 5 the install will install everything but doesn't install the actually XenApp server. This isn't even an option. This install option is only availbe under the regualr version of Windows 2008.. Why is this?

2) Can you stream applications that need to reference a DB of some order? HAs anyone done this before. are they any good beginner guide to App streaming?
You need to put XA6 on server 2008 R2 - you can use the same license server - and users will just normal applicaions, but behind the scenes they may be opening apps hosted on the R2 server and apps hosted on a server 2003 server.
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
XA5 will not work, install or run on 2008 R2.  XA6 was written from scratch for 2008 R2 because Microsoft made major changes to R2 from 2008.

I know of no beginner guide to app streaming.  Google Tim Mangen and see if he has anything.

Author

Commented:
They guy's..

Has anyone tryied to stram an app that references a DB successfully?

Author

Commented:
OK..  Here is the deal..
On my test XenAPP 2008 server I installed the license server, XenApp etc..

I installed the enterprise version of XEnApp. I did not install any licenses on my test server though since this is just a short term test server .My server has the follow message on screen:
"The licenses required by this edition of CitrixXenapp are not present on the license server.."

I tohugh Citrix gave you a x day trial license????

Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
That is correct but you have to download and install the license file FIRST.  XenApp always checks for a license server and the proper licenses (Startup, Product) at startup and at scheduled intervals.  If the XenApp server has contacted the license server at least once, the XenApp server will start up without having alicense server available.  You then have 30 days to get your license server back up and working.

Author

Commented:
where can I download the trail 30 license you mentioned?
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
It is a 90 day license for 99 users available on your MyCitrix.com site.

This article I wrote, http://www.dabcc.com/article.aspx?id=15046 , will show you what you need to do.

Author

Commented:
where can I find the XenAPP full admin guide pdf online also my Xenapp Console is showing my XEnAPP build number as 5357, does this mean I'm running Feature pack 3
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
I am on the road and do not have access to my lab servers to give you build #s.

http://edocs.citrix.com is where the bulk of Citrix product documentation is.  You can click on XenApp 5 for 2003 or 2008 and then click the button to generate a PDF for you.  

Author

Commented:
thanks but already check this site and only found what amounts to be a condensed version of the admin guide. Anyway I was able to get my one farm XEnApp server and enval license working with your help of course..

Now I just have to learn how to stream and application and publish a streamed application

CAn a applciatino that references a DB be streamed?
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
I would think so but as usual the only way to find out is to test.

Author

Commented:
Cool

OK, I have streamed by first APP :-)!!! Acrobat 9 Pro on a Windows 7 workstation.
I have setup this published application to stream to server which is (2008). I have found something ODD and I'm not sure if this is becuase I'm running a enval copy or not.

When I run the Citrix Client from the server I'm able to run my streamed Acrobat application. yet when I go to my XP workstation and lauch the Citrx client I can log in I can see the Citrx App preparing desktop and everything looks like it's working but it never brings up the application.

The same is true from the web interface.
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
Did you configure the web interface site for dual-mode?

Author

Commented:
hum...
I think so but not sure
where can I check this
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
What version of the client software are you using?  Sorry, the dual-mode is for online and offline access.  Offline allows access to apps atreamed to the client even when disconnected from the XenApp Farm.

Author

Commented:
OK...
My web site was set for dual and I just changed it to online online and it made no difference

my client app version is 12.0
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
Did you see this Citrix article just released yesterday?

http://support.citrix.com/article/CTX125713

Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
Just a guess, try installing the offline client on the PC.

Author

Commented:
my xenapp server is using the 12.0 online client and is working fine...

my workstation is using the same version but will not open up the acrobat application even though it looks like it wants to
You need to publish the application twice, once to stream to server and once to stream to client. Or configure it to stream to server as last option.

Author

Commented:
I'm confused..

I though If I streamed an app to server is would run on the server I do not want to stream the app to clients offline??
ohhh, i guess i was confused. You are saying you stream to server, but when you display to client it never appears via ICA.
How do you have the application published? Check out this screenshot. The default is streamed if possible, you want to change it to access from server. Confirm that is how you have it published and try again.
stream.png

Author

Commented:
It WORK!!!!!!!!
Carl WebsterCitrix Technology Professional - Fellow
Top Expert 2010

Commented:
congrats

Author

Commented:
I'm try to install XP MOde now on my Windows 7 profiler to see if I can install and stream some really old apps...

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