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tell me the physics of an LED, microphone, speaker, noise, and sound.

Posted on 2010-09-13
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The matter of these anti dog barking devices needs clarification as to the theory behind how they work. There are the $10 models that are advertised on TV. Then there are $59.99 models shaped like a birdhouse. Then water proof ones for $89.99 and up, with a "cone" to capture the sound of dogs barking and release the ultra sonic sound back to the dogs.

I've seen reviews on all of them and the reviews on the $10 model are not good, though many buyers are misreading the website and buying "one" and when they are billed close to $100 or more, they wonder why. They are missing the fact that they are buying a case of 12 and not a single unit, so some of the bad reviews are buyers not paying attention.

Let's discuss the $10 model. There is no simple LED to let you know the battery is still good. A small LED and two wires to a battery is pretty simple technology.
However these cheap devices do not have an LED. So, with the dogs the only ones who can hear the sound, and no LED, it easy to wonder if it works or not, and how dead is your battery.

Moving on to the birdhouse design, they may be made like a bird house but you can tell it is a camera like device, as it looks phony. And if you are trying to control your neighbors dogs you sure don't want an obvious device. On their website there are 34 reviews, and 16 said it worked, 8 said it did not, and the other 10 users made comments on other features of the device such as ease of use, cost, size of dog it works on, etc.

So, can someone explain the theory and the physics behind a device being able to detect a dog bark over other noises like music, cars, trains, etc. with a built in microphone. That microphone picks up the dog's barking.

Is it because the dog's bark is a certain frequency and microphones can be made to only pick up certain frequencies?

And this device retrieve's the dog's bark, and then through a speaker sends out an ultra sonic sound that only dogs can hear.

A physics professor on another forum said, "save your money and go to Google and locate ultra sonic ring tones (for a cell phone) and record them and play my stereo for the dogs. Teenager scan hear them but their adult teachers can not".

This sounded good and he was confirming the validity of the ultra sonic sounds these devices emit. However, I need a device that is triggered by the barking, penalizes the dogs, and turns off. I could not let my stereo run continuously without a cassette tape that was endless, like the ones used on old voice mail telephone machines.

So, how can company "A" afford to sell the microphone-speaker technology for $10, but can not afford to add an LED, and they do not sell the a/c adapters.

The birdhouse device does not have an a/c adapter either.
Co-conspiracy with the battery makers?

The more expensive model does come with an a/c adapter and a 10 foot cord.

So, tell me how a device can pick up dog barks and return a sound only they can  hear.
What is the cost to create a device that can do that?
Low cost enough to be able to sell them for $89.99?

It seems if the $10 device company sold 1 million devices for $10, and then charged their $7.99 for shipping and handling, but the devices can be shipped for about $2.00, then all they have to do is give a refund to all 1 million users, and they still make $6.00 per unit = $6 million (less cost to make the plastic device, the small circuit board inside, and the packaging).

Explain the physics behind how these devices work.

They all say it does not work on all dogs. I'd expect a chi hau hau and a great dane have very different barks and the device could get confused on some dogs.

Sign me as a person who has never lived in a community that allowed outside dogs (35 years) and now two are caged 24/7 only 20 feet from my bedroom window (3 weeks).

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Question by:nickg5
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>So, with the dogs the only ones who can hear the sound, and no LED, it easy to wonder if it works or not, and how dead is your battery.

I can hear it within about 5-6 feet.  Very high-pitched signal.  Doesn't register as a noise, but as a vibration inside your skull.  But, then again, mine had a small red LED that lit up when I pushed the test button.

>That microphone picks up the dog's barking.
Frequency of the bark along with volume.  The sensors pick up both sound and vibration.  I never heard it go off from background noise, rumbling truck/motorcycle engines, or me trying to fake a bark.

People leave these devices outside on the patio, so an LED wouldn't be visible.  It's also another component to break and/or drain the battery.  Likewise, an electric cord in the rain is dangerous.  The cheap  units are in no way water resistant, so it's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.

I got complaints all the time about our dogs (slightly neurotic and very lonely).  Tried the ultrasonic tones.  They learned to bark continuously until the batteries died.  That pissed the neighbors off more.

Tried the vibration collar.  After a couple of days, they ignored it.

Shock collar worked for over a week, but trained them to try different noise-making techniques.  They settled on a loud whining/crying that wouldn't trip the collar, and proceeded to jump against the metal back door.  It made lots of noise, but also wouldn't trip the collar.

Tried the citrus scent on one dog.  Scared the crap out of her, and she would run in circles backward.  The other dog would walk up to her and snuff/chuff loudly to set it off.  That's just mean.

I figured out that leaving dogs unattended just didn't work.  Some dogs settle into the routine.  Some have behavior that can't be modified by part-time, unmonitored conditioning exercises.

Wish I would have figured that out before dropping hundreds of dollars on gadgets.

Sorry I can't help.
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LEDs are terribly wasteful for a battery powered application.  it would be a poor design choice.   here's why.

a typical LED requires about 10-20 mA

a typical AA battery has about 2 - 3 AmpHours depending on discharge rate.  (several batteries in series will not increase the capacity, only the voltage)

if we assume the detector circuit plus occasional noise generation averages 10 mA, the LED doubles (or even triples) the battery consumption, and cuts the battery life in half or more.


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All that stuff is crap, and a crap-shoot if it will work or not. Don't want ASPCA on my back, but I myself bought a "barking collar". When we put the dog on the chain in back yard (we have no fence, so use a real long chain), we put on the collar. It gives him a mild shock when he barks. If he barks again, the shock is a little stronger...you get the idea. Of course, it has an upper limit so it won't hurt or electrocute the dog. Anyway, upon out first use, he barked, then made an almost "Huh?" sound. The "tickle" of a shock surprised him. Anyway, he barked again, then stopped.
The good thing is, the dog gets "trained" by the collar in a different way. When we put the collar on, he knows he'll get shocked if he barks, so he doesn't even try.
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My neighbors won't let me buy them the $38 collars out of my pocket, surely. They have 2 dogs in a small cage 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 20 feet from my bedroom window. Two more dogs on chains, one on the back of the house 30 feet from my room, and another one on the side of the house. And two more inside dogs that are "real pets". Those 2 are allowed out to roam around. We have no city laws on numbers of dogs, and the Humane Society said they care less as long as the dogs have water, food, and a roof. They are prisoners 24/7.

The devices I mentioned above, all use 9 volt batteries and how many hours of use you get, I do not know. It all depends on the miliamps of the device and this one is not marked inside or out. The devices are supposed to only turn on when there is a bark, and turn off once the sound is delivered to the dogs.

The more expensive ones do have power indicators.

I can not figure out why these people have so many dogs, and why you can not use an a/c adapter with the PetSafe birdhouse device, and the Bark Off $10 TV special that is also sold at Walmart.

They have either not barked when I woke up, the last 7 nights, or their barking did not wake me up. Then last night they woke me up at 12:30. They barked continously until 1:15 while their owners slept like babies.
I got my water hose and attacked them. They are dumb dogs, it took close to 5 minutes before they figured out how to escape the water, GO into their dog house. They did not bark after that. With the warm weather they were dry in the morning and little evidence of what I did. Their owners might have called the cops on me.
Since they barked so long I now know my $10 device does not work, or the battery is weak. It has range of 20 feet and it is exactly 20 feet from my brick wall to the wall of the cage. The dogs are actually about 25 feet from the device, and technically out of range of the device. I just thought, at $10, why not try it. For one reason or the other, things were fine for about a week.
I only turned it on at night, 9pm to 8am. It was sitting in the window and the window had to be open and it was easy to see, and I did not want the owners to see it.

Supposedly the devices train the dogs and once trained, you don't have to keep buying batteries. If my device works, or a future device works, I might be confusing the dogs by having it on only at night. But, I can live with the noise during the day and hope they are very active and wear themselves out and sleep at night. People do say most dogs sleep at night.
Last night reminded me of a night a couple weeks ago. The barked from 1:00am to 2:00am without let up. I looked to see what they were barking at.
They were clearly barking at, and looking at, my back yard which contains nothing but 2 pecan trees. There is a street light on the next street over that does shine through the trees and sheds some light on their cage. It could have been that but that street light is a constant, it has always been there.

In my city there are laws for nuisance. You call Animal Control and they send the owner's an anonymous letter. Then you can call the police and I must have a time and dated recording. The owner's can be fined $250. Beyong the fines, I'd have to go before a judge and the proof of burden is on me. I could go through all that and the judge rules against me since all the neighbors will say, "the dogs don't bother us and we have lived here for years." Some cities require two neighbors to complain. No one else is less than 100 feet from the  dogs but me. No one will give me any help or moral support. I'm closer to the two fenced in dogs than their own owner's. I made a mistake of waving to the owner's, so I stepped across the line of "stranger/new neighbor waving" and it would be bad on me to have to seek to have their dogs put inside (6 inside dogs won't work), move the cage to the front yard (that won't work because they have no front yard) or have them get rid of them. $250 fines could get me a broken car windshield in the middle of the night.
The water hose got their attention. I took the risk of getting caught but I have been tortured for over 3 weeks.

rwj04: what about 9 volt batteries versus AA?

aleghart:
"But, then again, mine had a small red LED that lit up when I pushed the test button."
..............which brand do you have that has an LED and test button?
..............what was your final solution?

So, technically speaking, the physics of sound and noise, the theory behind a microphone to pick up the barking and a speaker to return the ultra sound is real and works?

There are two more expensive devices that have a range up to 50 feet. Since my dogs are 25 feet away, I may have more success. The black dog is the ring leader, as he barks louder and more often. The sheer number of dogs is a problem as when one barks they all 4 bark. Especially when the 2 inside dogs are let out then there are 6.

I've got to try a new 9 volt battery. The one I used, may not have been new. After that I'll try the birdhouse one by PetSafe (lots of reviews on their site and these are sold at Pet Smart). Then the other one. I can mount it just under my roof and run the 10 foot a/c adapter cord in a small pipe and into the window. At some point the dog owners will see it, and assume it is hurting their dogs and maybe try to steal or damage the device or call the cops.

Someone said I should install a device with a sound that humans can hear. When the dogs bark, my yard would put out a noise that disturbs all the neighbors. They'd all call the police and all I could say is the noise only happens when the dogs bark. So, stop the dogs and you stop the noise. The dogs are invading my privacy and long term subjecting to the same noises, day after day can be like torture and affect one's heatlh.

I wonder what I could do if the cops said remove the device?

The options are:
1. a device works, even if only one the black dog.
2. they move.
3. I move.
4. the dogs die but they are young dogs.
5. I start the complaining process and they decide to add two more to the cage as they find "my problem" to be amusing to them.
6. I tried to hire someone to sneak over after dark and raise the "simple U shaped" latch on the door of the cage and let the dogs RUN for their hostage lives, or hang around and be caught by their owner and put back in their prison.
Once the latch raiser was through they could run to their car parked down the road and gone. NO crime committed in my opinion but no one wanted the job, they said too risky going to jail. I explained, if the dogs did happen to bark at you as you approached the cage, no one would think anything about it since they bark all the time any way. Getting caught opening the door is uner 1%.
7. Someone kills the dogs.
8. I have learned that black walnut fruit and nuts are very poisonous to dogs. There is black walnut tree right beside my house and 15 feet from the cage. The baseball size fruits do not fall into the cage due to the cover over the cage. Pieces of the black walnut fruit could be put in their water and might serve as a poison.

I love animals and I was shocked when the Humane Society said they cared less about these dogs being caged 24/7.
My top choices would be the devices work, the dogs pass away, the owners move. Other options are not good for me, but I am being tortured in my own home. And across the street from them, is a good friend of their's, a Caucasion Sheriff's Officer. That does not help me either. All their neighbors would never testify on my behalf. I have two ladies who would but they live so far away from the house, the judge might throw them out as witnesses.


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I misunderstood your question, I thought the dog(s) were yours. In a case like yours, a solution is tough. Two things will help. One is to get real thick cloth curtains for your windows. This will muffle the barking a little. But the biggest help will be to run a "white noise generator". You can buy one specificaly for that purpose, or use a noisy fan in your room (pointed away from you if it's cold). Or do what I do in my office cubicle to cut down on ambient noise. Goto www.simplynoise.com, and they have white noise (and other noise) sounds there. Just select what you want...white noise, pink noise (a little more treble), or my favorite, brown noise. Select you volume level, and you'll be amazed how much noise outside of your roon it will block.
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9V batteries have about one fourth of the capacity as AA's.   typically 0.5 Amp Hours.   but a higher-quality device could minimize current draw from the LED by using low-current LEDs.   There are some LEDs out there that use as little as 2mA.

anyhow, this information is tangential to your real problem.

if it were me, i would set up a speaker that blasts a painfully-loud, high frequency signal that only dogs can hear (greater than 20kHz) and direct it at the neighbors dogs.     with a sensor that detects any time they are barking.

you would turn it on only at night or times when you need peace and quiet.    this would not be something that should be left on during the day.

i could breadboard something like this with parts from Fry's Electronics.    directional microphone, generic 741 Op Amps for the input level detection,  555 Timer for signal generation,  FETs for an output amplifier, and a good Speaker.   discrete components (biasing resistors, caps) as needed, and an AC/DC power supply.  But the trick would be to prototype it into a box that is weather proof.  

I imagine there should already be such a commercially available device.  



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Ah, you bring back memories, rwj04. I've designed so many circuits usinf 555's it's ridiculous. And used a heck of a lot of 741's too. The good old days before I concentrated on computer programming.
Anyway, I digress. Your idea is a good one. You can go to any music store and but weather-proof speakers (they use them for outdoor concerts). And weather-proof enclosures canbe had at Grainger or any of the industrial electrical supply houses.
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oh, i kind of missed some of this discussion.

the detection would be be more difficult to calibrate for a dog, because as you say dogs have different "bark frequencies"

the basic method would be to have a  couple second-order filters (one highpass and one lowpass) to make a sharp bandpass on the input signal (microphone picking up the barks.)

it would filter out anything outside the range of a dog bark.   Ideally, you would be able to calibrate this bandpass filter to closely match the target dogs, rather than having a wide band that would cover both the chihuahua's and the great dane.

anything more specific than that would involve some pretty complex signal processing and is not realistic for such a project.

personally, i would just go for a simple level detector on a directional microphone and only have it on during evenings or night.   i would have it with an ac adapter in a waterproof enclosure.   the most expensive part would be the directional microphone, and then probably the speaker and the WP enclosure.     I'm pretty sure that for less than $100 you could build a good design.




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yea, VBguy.   i have the same problem.  code.   building circuits was fun times.

Grainger is definitely a good place to get an enclosure.


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What an interesting question. I do hope you don't go the route of poisoning the dogs.

Some thoughts...

>>>4. the dogs die but they are young dogs<<<

And hoping for this does little good, as people who own dogs tend to replace them when they die off. So, you could hope for peace and quiet as the dogs die of old age, but it probably won't happen.

>>>they said too risky going to jail<<<

Well, trespassing is a crime. I don't know how serious your local law enforcement would take that. Also, if the owners permanently lose a dog and they know you're responsible, you could be subjected to a civil suit.

>>>i would set up a speaker that blasts a painfully-loud, high frequency signal that only dogs can hear<<<

This solution looks to be the most humane and effective. If you're worried about your neighbors putting two and two together, you should actually use the speakers for yourself.  Blare your favorite music as you sit on the porch or work on the yard. The neighbors might never realize that you're also using the speakers to train their dogs.

But, speakers that just show up and never make noise? That would raise some suspicions. I'd even suggest using the speakers for yourself for a week before using them to train the dogs.
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obviously, don't do anything to harm the dogs.   that's wrong.


i dont think there's anything that says you cant  hang a speaker outside that emits a 25kHz signal only dogs can hear.

i'd say "yeah, i'm sending a high pitched noise to shut your damn dogs up.  When they shut up, the noise goes off".

nothing illegal with that.  humans can't hear it, so they have no evidence to file a complaint.  

though you might need to also set a webcam to record in case they ever decide to damage/dismantle/steal the device.  which would be very illegal on their part.





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from the above link here are the features and I was going to try this one. I think they sell a speaker cone that helps capture and send the noise.
http://www.ultimatebarkcontrol.com/ds_pro.htm

my error this one has the "cone"
http://pestcontrol.netfirms.com/dog_bark_stopper.htm

I've seen both of those and considered both.

Here is the one sold at PetSmart. It is plastic and may not be waterproof. I bought one and it had dirt on it and water was seen in the sensor. They have a 60 day return policy and the device is gauranteed satisfaction for 30 days.
http://www.petsafe.net/Products/Bark-Control/Ultrasonic/Outdoor-Bark-Control.aspx

VBClassicGuy:
.......................I was advised to get a two inch thick piece of styrofoam and cover my window. I already use a fan that I am used to using while sleeping. I am a very light sleeper with insomnia so TV's on in other rooms or lights on in other rooms - zero sleep. I am not sure more noise than my own fan would help me.
I wake multiple times per night without any barking dogs.
aaahhhh it is 3:30 pm and they are barking their heads off.

rwj04:
"if it were me, i would set up a speaker that blasts a painfully-loud, high frequency signal that only dogs can hear (greater than 20kHz) and direct it at the neighbors dogs.     with a sensor that detects any time they are barking.
....................is that the same thing the above devices do?

LOOK here: This is what the physics professor said do....download these cell phone rings tones that adults can not hear but teenagers is class CAN hear.
Look at the frequencies:
http://www.freemosquitoringtones.org/
If 21 to 22 kHz can be heard by those under age 18, how high does the kHz need to be for only dogs to hear it?

rwj04:
"personally, i would just go for a simple level detector on a directional microphone and only have it on during evenings or night.   i would have it with an ac adapter in a waterproof enclosure.   the most expensive part would be the directional microphone, and then probably the speaker and the WP enclosure. I'm pretty sure that for less than $100 you could build a good design.
.....................do the two from the top two links in the comment by VbClassicGuy do the same thing?
"i dont think there's anything that says you can't hang a speaker outside that emits a 25kHz signal only dogs can hear."
.....................kids under age 18 can hear 22 kHz.....is 25 high enough to eliminate humans?

jkunrein:
...................people on a dog forum said not to let the owners know their dogs bother me, or they might add two more in the cage. If I filed a complaint it would obviosuly be me. I'm new in the neighborhood and closest to the dogs by at least 80 feet or more, over other neighbors.
" i would set up a speaker that blasts a painfully-loud, high frequency signal that only dogs can hear<<<
This solution looks to be the most humane and effective. If you're worried about your neighbors putting two and two together, you should actually use the speakers for yourself.  Blare your favorite music as you sit on the porch or work on the yard. The neighbors might never realize that you're also using the speakers to train their dogs."
..........................you mean I can listen to my music and at the same time blast a sound that only dogs can hear?

Any way to rig a device that controls my water hose?
I know my father has a timer on his for watering his garden.
Some remote control timer that I could turn on from inside my house at the window without going outside in the middle of the night to spray the dogs with water?

The U shaped latch on the cage could be opened and the person out of sight in under 60 seconds. They could use gloves to open the latch. I was going to stay totally anonymous to them, by them giving me their address by hotmail, once I see the cage open. If the dogs do not run for their live's and hang around to only be caught by the owners, well, I'd lose my $$ but I still send the person a money order. I do not think they would take me to court and force me to swear on a bible that I did it, oe was behind it. The black dogs like to scale the fence. He does this near the hinges on the door. If he did this near the latch, he could accidentally open it himself. There is not lock on it and it is the type U-shaped latch you can raise with one finger. Very simple and q






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ooops, mis the correct key on my keyboard....

Very simple and quick get away without being caught.
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do not spray your neighbors dogs with a water hose, automated or not, i'm pretty sure that is illegal and you could be cited and arrested, or at least sued.

 do not infringe on their property or contact their dogs.  

do not attempt to harm the dogs or let them out of the yard so that they will run away.  you will be the prime suspect and will very likely be charged with a crime.  

do not
become the guy who goes to jail for 6 months or 2 years for some variant on animal cruelty.

as an aside:   if someone here were to propose to people on this site to commit a crime for pay, that would also be illegal.  I know this is not what you're doing, of course.    I'm just sayin'  in case some day someone else reads this and thinks they might want to do such a thing  ;-)


human hearing limit is roughly 20kHz +/- 10%. this max is for children because as we age this decreases.   the so-called "mosquito" device's tone used to repel teenagers (and now used by them as a covert ringtone) is approx 17.4kHz.   most all adults over age 30 can not hear this.    

dogs can hear up to 40kHz or higher.   i do not think the extreme high frequencies are effective for training.  

dog whistles used for training an upper frequency of ~22kHz.   This frequency is used to inflict audio "pain" to punish bad behavior

I would try one of those products such as

you said you bought one and it was dirty?   take it back and get one that hasn't been returned.

regardless, it has a 60 day return policy in case it doesnt work for you.

set it outside and point it at the dogs' area in the evening, and bring it back inside in the morning when you leave for work.   dont leave it outside when you are gone.    stick a post in your yard 5 feet from the fence or property line from which you can hang it.  

I would set up a video camera to continuously film it, if you have any fear it will be vandalized or stolen.  call the police if it is.   it is not illegal to hang that in your yard.

.





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you know, im rereading all this, and i need to ask the obvious:

Have you talked to the neighbors, in a friendly non-accusatory manner?

Have you ever said, "hey Joe, i don't want to be a nuisance, but your dogs barking kept me awake for several hours last night."

you need to approach them in a non-hostile manner, but be clear and have a specific  example to cite.  not just speaking in general terms.       ask them if they have any suggestions

maybe they will be totally uncooperative, but then at least you tried.

But consider this:

people will be much more likely to want to work with you if they think you are a friendly neighbor.  if you just glare at them and seem unfriendly, they can quickly get an attitude of "F--- that guy".  

maybe invite them over for some food and drink, nothing extravagant.   sit out in the yard with a couple beers and get to know them a little bit.   let them get to know you.

being the new neighbor, you have a unique opportunity.

 




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>you mean I can listen to my music and at the same time blast a sound that only dogs can hear?

That's not "training".  That's malicious.

>I could turn on from inside my house at the window without going outside in the middle of the night to spray the dogs with water?

If that were the neighbor's child, it would be classified as assault.  Why are dogs any different.

Sounds like you want to punish the dogs for being dogs.  Both you and the dogs have to adapt to the environment.  You are the only one free to do anything different.  (Well, the neighbors can change, but you don't want to approach them.  Your choice on that.)

In any reasonable mediation, arbitration, court proceeding, what have you, the question will always come up: "Why didn't you contact the neighbors _before_ attempting XYZ retaliation plan?"

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Not to get off on a tangent, but the comment:
If that were the neighbor's child, it would be classified as assault.  Why are dogs any different.
is ridiculous. You're probably one of those guys who watch the news and see a murderer get off with two years (early probation possible), and a guy who kicked a dog get ten years under the new laws, and never flinch. Makes me sick.
PEOPLE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANIMALS!!!!!
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perhaps.  but that doesnt make animals unimportant.    people who abuse animals repeatedly abuse people.

anyhow, all life is important.   you dont need to turn this into some kind of political rant against animal rights advocates.   just be decent is all they're saying.

sheesh.








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Well stated, and understood. Just caught me at the wrong moment, my apologies.
And a good point was made. Before anything is done, and things get out of hand, just in case there are repercussions, the offending neighbors should indeed be contacted first. As stated, in any formal consequences that may result, someone will ask why the neighbors were not talked to first, to try and work out an amiciable solution.
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aleghart >> If that were the neighbor's child, it would be classified as assault.  Why are dogs any different.

um, yeah,  but that then begs the question about why the hell is a child out barking in the yard at 1:30.  Child Protective Services would probably get involved before the water hose is brought out.

another question:  WTF is your point about this?  how do you think this segues into mediation and communication strategies?



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I'm just saying try to talk to the offending neighbors first just to cover your a$$, then proceed with the best solution if they are unreceptive. And the best solution so far seems to be the "detect barking and emit an unpleasant sound only dogs can hear" scheme.
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I don't consider these dogs to be pets. The 4 outside dogs are chained and caged 24/7.
I'm closer to 2 of them than their own owners.

I was advised by animal control today that if I let them know their dogs are bothering me, they might put two more in the cage. There are no laws in our city on # of dogs. As long as they have water, food and a roof, The Humane Society does not care.

Animal Control which enforces the nuisance laws as it pertains to animals only send a letter to the owner's. Then it is handled after that with calls to the police and I will have to prove the dogs barked for a certain length of time on certain days and HOPE the judge sides with me. No other neighbors will back me up because they are over 100 feet away.

The last thing the Animal Control director and I talked about was: If the judge rules against me, and all other efforts have failed, it would be up to me to accept the any time of day noise, or move. I'm 59 years old and in my first house and been here 3 weeks. The director said he thought "water hose" is a no no, even though I'm standing on my lot, but electronic devices are perfectly good.

He said try calling a veterinarian for their opinions or ideas.

I'd like to try electronic devices before letting Animal Control send out a letter stating the law. It will be obvious that I was the one, since I'm new in the neighborhood. Part of the issue is, I am closer to the dogs than anyone else in the city and they have an abnormal number of dogs, 6, and I only consider the two inside dogs as pets, the other 4 are hostages. I may put on a glove and open the damn gate myself and tell the dogs to "run for you life and freedom". GO now, quick.
The barking ring leader is in the cage. The two on chains are 30-50 feet away and do not normally start the noise.

rwj04:
what you say is reasonable but difficult. I might appear to be buttering them up for the "your dogs are torturing me and I have spoken with a lawyer."

My Uncle said....move your bedroom into the living room....DUH, no one should have to live like that.

Now, I have a suspicion that some of these dogs belong to relatives that live in apartments and can not have dogs. That would explain the 6 dogs. If they were receiving money in return for shelter that is a kennel and illegal inside the city limits.

The dog in the back and the dog on the side, have chains with limits. They can not see each other or interact. They may be male and female. It's the black dog in the cage that is the clear ring leader and if an electronic device worked on only him it would surely help.
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>WTF is your point about this?  how do you think this segues into mediation and communication strategies?

It doesn't.  These questions are all over the place.  Trying to put an order and organization to the posts flying in is useless.

>but that then begs the question about why the hell is a child out barking in the yard at 1:30.

Same reason the dogs are doing it.  They want attention, and they're locked out of the house.

Would you turn a hose on the neighbor's kid for crying for attention?  Better target would be the parents.  Hosing down anyone is probably not the best way to get neighborly cooperation.  Good way to get popped in the nose.

The problem is that the owner hasn't trained the dogs to live quietly outside.  Some dogs do just fine.  Others (like my neighbor's chihuahuas) cry like babies when you put them outside for more than a minute.  I trained the neighbor's  chihuahuas to stop barking at me and my dogs.  But, I can't make them un-lonely and un-scared when they're thrown outside at night.

I had problems with my slightly neurotic dogs.  Moved from apartment to house, then bought a house so I'm not "the _renter_ with the barking dogs".  The noisemaker training never worked for long.  I never went the route of medication.  Both the cost and the idea of doggie Prozac were not appealing.

As a neighbor, it's near impossible to train them to stop barking in the middle of the night.  It takes a lot of hands-on time that even the owner (apparently) is not doing.

Tell the neighbor, "You might not hear them at night, but they're closer to me than you.  They wake me up at all hours.  If they do it again, can I call you on the phone?  It usually happens about 3am."

If they say "yes", there's hope.  If they say "bugger off", then they obviously know there's a problem, and they don't care, and won't do anything on their own to deal with it.

Until you do that, it might be counter-productive to spend time and money on something that the neighbors might try.  Even offer to loan your noisemakers.  Tell them you used to have a dog, or your sister's husband's third cousin left them in your garage.  If it's free, they might consider putting them in their yard, closer to the dogs.  At the very least, it might make them start researching training methods.
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rwj04 >> but that then begs the question about why the hell is a child out barking in the yard at 1:30.
aleghart: >> Same reason the dogs are doing it.  They want attention, and they're locked out of the house. Would you turn a hose on the neighbor's kid for crying for attention?


way to miss the point.   children aren't barking in the yard for 2 hours in the wee hours of the A.M.   children are not relevant to this discussion.

since you don't seem to get the point, let me lay it out real nice and slow:


This is Math and Science.  

So save your strawman fallacies for Politics.    

And stay on topic.

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the more expensive barking devices have a range up to 50 feet and should have a good chance to work on one of the two dogs that are only 20 feet away.

I may go visit the sherriff's officer that lives across from them, and discuss the problem with him. I saw him talking to the dog owner the other day. He might casually mention it and they approach me about it.

I prefer to be careful about getting too chummy, then taking them to court over what they consider to be "pets"  that never get any hands on attention from the relatives who are kids, and these 4 dogs have to watch the other two inside dogs roam around the yard and they can not.

If you and I were caged 24/7 we'd bark too. That is why I like the idea of a anonymously paid stranger in the night, opening the cage door with the flick of a finger. Hell, in many cities you can take a contract out on someone's life for a hundred bucks, why not $50 for some daring unafraid person to run in, open the cage, run out and gone in under 60 seconds. We can time it so I can be watching when they do it. I can pretend I got the car's description but they moved too fast for me to get the tag number and, of course give a phony description.

Like I said, it has been "OK" for about 7 days straight but last night drove me to the water hose and it STOPPED the barking.

I'm not sure how anyone, including the owner's can make a dog stop barking. It's an animal. Like a baby crying, EXCEPT babies grow out of crying all the time and dogs do not. These are young dogs and not passing away any time soon. Once all the kids are grown and dogs dead, it will be over.
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so, is this

"dog barking microphone initiated speaker with ultrasonic sound

a "real" technology, or are these companies selling junk that is, by the way, recommended by veterinarians. (some models are)

Someone on the PetSafe review board said "watch the commercial", when the device is turned on, the dogs stop barking but they also "look to the left" at their owner or trainer, and THAT is why they stopped barking, not some hand held device. Other people say they do work. I have no choice but to try the more expensive ones. I need a indicator light of some sort, or a test light. But, hanging from the tree or house at a recommended height of 5 feet is going to be so obvious, what it is there for. I'll put "no tresspassing" signs all around the damn thing.
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>> I don't consider these dogs to be pets.

well, they aren't livestock.  i sympathize with your opinion, i hate to see dogs locked adn/or chained.   but they are not being abused or neglected (other than, perhaps, emotionally)




>> The Humane Society does not care.

they care, but they are underfunded and overworked, and can do their best to just take care of the most egregious violations of abuse.   abuse that would make you sick.




>> No other neighbors will  back me up because they are over 100 feet away.

you sure seem certain about this.   do you even know your neighbors?  anyhow, this is not about your neighbors.   you do not need your neighbors consent to have the dogs determined a nuisance.   video/audio will suffice.

likely there is at least one neighbor who is bothered by  it.   if  not, there are reasonable people in this world who can  understand that  you are right next to the dogs and are bothered by  it.   there is not a  minimum number of people who need to be bothered  for it to "count"
 
 


>> I'm 59 years old and in my  first house and been here 3 weeks.

and i'm afraid you may be on your way to alienating yourself from your neighbors with the attitude that everyone is automatically against you.    you are not the first person in the world to be annoyed by late night barking dogs.    




>> The director said he thought "water  hose" is a no no, even though I'm standing on my lot,

yeah.  it's a "no no".  as in most likely a misdemeanor crime.   or grounds for a civil suit.





>> but electronic  devices are perfectly good.

that they are.   so is conversation with your neighbors about their dogs.




>> He said try calling a veterinarian for their opinions or ideas.

yes, you should do that.  but you may get an answer you didn't want to hear.





>> I'd  like to try electronic devices before letting Animal Control send out a  letter

I'd like to see you talk to your neighbor before electronic device.    sort of a concept of escalation of hostilities.   dont bring out the guns until negotiations fail.




>> I am closer to the  dogs than anyone else in the city and they have an abnormal number of  dogs, 6, and I only consider the two inside dogs as pets, the other 4  are hostages.

i sympathize, but the dogs are all pets, and whether you or i approve of their living conditions they are not neglected or in jeopardy.  




>> I may put on a glove and open the damn gate myself and  tell the dogs to "run for you life and freedom". GO now, quick.

and you may find that the "Law of Unintended Consequences" bites you in the ass.   Metaphorically...   or literally.   ;-D

at any rate, they're not going to head off to Hollywood to star in dog food commercials.  they'll run around for a while and come back to / be found by / returned to the people who feed and shelter them.  

and you'll be the prime suspect.  :-(




>> what  you say is reasonable but difficult. I might appear to be buttering  them up for the "your dogs are torturing me and I have spoken with a  lawyer."

i dont understand this sentiment at all.  this makes no sense to me.   Why on earth would they  think that?  people TALK to their neighbors.  It's crazy sounding, i know.   but it really happens.  all the time.


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The people across from me have lived here 17 years, dogs do not bother them being 100+ feet away. Vacant lot on one side of me. Then the other side is the dog pound that is on a side street. There is a house within 15 feet of them on one side. Those people have a trampoline and all the kids go there to play.
They are a good 100 feet from these 2 dogs.
The other side of the dog owner's is a street and then another vacant lot. In front of them is a sherriff's officer and he is over 150 feet away plus a house between him and the dogs.

I'm sorry to tell the world that I can not sleep with lights on, or TV's going, or in a moving car and I am under medication now for insomnia and with no dogs barking I awaken several times a night. Add dogs and you got a bad situation.
It takes me an hour or more to get to sleep without dogs.

I have seen the man go to the cage 3 times. Two times he sat down in a chair beside the cage. The other time he puffed on his cigarette and blew the smoke in one of the dog's face.

Animal Control did remove a put bull from a nearby house because his 24/7 chain got tangled and broke his leg. And two of these dogs were chained together and would fight.

These dogs of mine play with each other off and on.
Some idiot asked me if they barked 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Of course not. They bark on and off all day and night, causes can be anything that fancies them. You might not hear them for 2 hours and then you might hear them for 45 straight minutes.

Animal Control said it is one of the hardest city laws to enforce because the owner's can claim, my tape recorder and me standing there holding it, caused the barking, no other people have ever complained, etc.

He said the absolute burden of proof is on me, and to be ready to tell the judge that I have tried everything, with receipts for devices, to hidden tape recordings to prove I may have spoken to the neighbors.

I am not clear who even lives there. I see an older lady, young people and kids toys. Some days you never see a kid. I'm not sure who even lives there, and who owns these dogs.

I might wander over some time when the guy is sitting in the chair beside the cage. I find it difficult to bring the subject of barking up. I was warned not to let them know the dogs bother me except as a last resort.
2 caged dogs could become 4 and no judge or law can stop it.

I can not leave the window open for this device too many more weeks. The cold air will damage alot of furniture. I have the device in the bedroom closest to the dogs and pointed right at them. I stay in the next room over, maybe 25 feet from the cage.

Maybe a squirrel will carry a black walnut over there near the cage and drop it and it falls in the cage and the dogs chew it like a base ball.

As many doctors have said, to be subjected to the same thing, over and over, day after day, can cause health issues.

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by:nickg5
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is the technology of:

mic and barking triggering speaker and ultrasound....."real?"
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I've never been a social neighbor, and neither have most of the others. People stay to them selves.
Wave or speak, once in a blue moon.
Never drank or eaten with a neighbor and never seen other neighbors doing that either. Everyone has toooo many other friends and relatives who visit or they go visit.
I asked my doctor for slightly higher dose of meds (an extra 1/2 mg) and was refused since the reason was, can not sleep due to dogs.

I've got $175, I can try with the phony birdhouse and then the other one that reaches out up to 50 feet or more.
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By the way, I've lived here since August 17th. The worst 3 nights were 5am, 2am, and 12:30 am, so the loooong events are in the middle of the night when everyone else is asleep.
Animal Control said they could think they smell a raccoon or a possum (or actually there is such an animal around) or hear dogs way off in the distance. So, much for "most dogs sleep at night".

They did not bark at the water hose and the water made no noise......so........
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I've never been a social neighbor, and neither have most of the others

no one is asking you to become his buddy....  just introduce yourself and say hi.  it's what neighbors do, unless you live in some dangerous ghetto.



He said the absolute burden of proof is on me, and to be ready to tell the judge that I have tried everything, with receipts for devices, to hidden tape recordings to prove I may have spoken to the neighbors.

the judge will not be in your favor if you have not attempted to speak to him and addressed your concern.    I do not think you should try to record your conversations with the owner.  that's questionable legality, and i think would not be allowed as evidence.   do make a "log" of all your contact attempts and what was discussed.


I am not clear who even lives there. I see an older lady, young people and kids toys. Some days you never see a kid. I'm not sure who even lives there, and who owns these dogs.

one way to find out....   "hi there!  Im your neighbor next door, i just moved in.   how are you?"

I might wander over some time when the guy is sitting in the chair beside the cage. I find it difficult to bring the subject of barking up. I was warned not to let them know the dogs bother me except as a last resort.

warned by whom?   what reasons did they give for this warning?


2 caged dogs could become 4 and no judge or law can stop it.

why do you think 2 caged dogs will become 4, merely because you address barking?

I can not leave the window open for this device too many more weeks. The cold air will damage alot of furniture. I have the device in the bedroom closest to the dogs and pointed right at them. I stay in the next room over, maybe 25 feet from the cage.

 huh?  why is it open?  so close the window.   i missing the point here.





OK, look, i agree when negotiations fails, start bringing out the "guns"  (noise makers, video, calls to animal control and police).

but be warned you start down that road and it will become difficult for you.   you will be so much better off if you can resolve the issue like "normal" neighbors do.



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The window is open because the cheap device I'm trying now, can not be used with the window closed. I have no way to put this one outside and it would be seen easily. I turn it on at dark and off at 8am.

Some people said do not let the owner's know their dogs are bothering you because they might find it amusing and the problem gets worse. The Animal Control said if you have to go the legal route and lose, and they are fined $250 per incident along the way, maybe my car windshiled gets broken, maybe they add more dogs to futher penalize me for what I did.

Not a ghetto area but I'm Caucasion and they are not. And non Caucasions walk around the streets after dark and of course the dogs bark when people walk down the street.

Last night was ok until 4:40am and the lead dog barked until 5:20 and then it ended. No barking since then and it is 9am. I'd have no idea how to document that using a recorder/ I can start keeping a diary of middle of the night events. This is the time it happens.

Is this microphone > picking up dog barking frequencies > initiating a speaker that sends out ultrasonic sounds....is all that a real technology that works?
That was the meat of the question.
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>>>you mean I can listen to my music and at the same time blast a sound that only dogs can hear?<<<

That's not actually what I meant, though it could be possible. Such a setup would probably cost more than you want.

What I meant is that if you do go the route of secretly blasting ultrasonic tones through the speakers, you will need to justify the speakers somehow.  You have stressed pretty heavily that you fear these neighbors will seek retribution. I don't know your situation, so I'm going to have to assume you are right about that. If they are the types who would take offense at the legal use of these noisemakers and would take it out on you, then you need to make sure they don't suspect your speakers.  

If I saw my neighbor put speakers outside but never used them, I'd wonder what he's doing. If I saw my neighbor sitting on the porch, enjoying some music, then I'd think nothing of the speakers. I'm saying that if you fear retribution, then create a cover story during the day so the speakers at night don't get undue attention.

Your best bet is to do nothing to the dogs or the property. Often, courts rule in favor of the person whose property is being violated. You may be tempted to lash out against them, but it will only reflect poorly on you in court.  

And letting the dogs out likely wouldn't help. Most likely, the dogs will explore their new surroundings, but they'll be back for food and be recaptured. Domestication really removes independence from animals. Unless they get a sweet deal somewhere else, they'll come back.  As pointed out, you would be the prime suspect if the neighbors suspect the pen has been tampered with (even if you hire someone else).

I'm curious if these devices work for multiple dogs. Obviously, the science is sound for a single dog. The dog barks, a piercing tone is emitted, and the dog figures out that his barking triggers the noise.  But, if there are four dogs in one area, how does that work? When Dog A hears the tone because Dog B is barking, does Dog A figure out the trigger? It could be as ineffectual as blaring the sound constantly. If the punishment happens all the time, then it ceases to be punishment, as the subject cannot ascertain how to avoid it.
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Oh, and use video to record the dogs barking. That way, it's obvious that it's at night. A tape recorder will only prove that the dogs bark (which might be good enough for some judges), but it's not obvious that it's at night.  Also, the video will demonstrate that you are able to hear this clearly while on your own property. Showing that you are a good citizen who doesn't tromp in your neighbor's yard can help your case.
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The devices I would now consider buying, one looks like a birdhouse and one looks like as small speaker or maybe a security camera. They are quite legal and Animal Control said that is 100% better than water hose (which did work), as far as me getting in trouble.

So you are saying these outdoor speakers would only emit ultrasonic sound, so I'd sit there at times during the day pretending to listen to music and then at night turn it on so the ultrasonic sound is sent when the dog barks.

I need a device that turns on when the barking starts and off when it stops. I can not stay up all night for 2-3 weeks waiting on training. I'm not clear on how you explain speakers that emit ultrsaound but I listen to my music. You mean recording the ultrasound and playing it at night and listen to my real music off and on during the day.
I'm not sure my stereo can be rigged to detect a bark.

I assumed if there are 4 dogs and 1 barked they would all hear the ultrasound.
The two small dogs on chains are 30+ feet away and not the ring leader. It's the black one in the cage who has a room mate. He was the only one barking from 4:40 am to 5:20 am. Not sure what he was barking at....maybe nothing.
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okay, i get it.   you're a cranky old white guy with an aversion to approaching minorities.   no offense, i'm cranky and white, too.  :-D

I guess you should have looked into your neighborhood before you bought.     oh, well, too late now.    Since you refuse to attempt to do any basic communication, here a the strategy you can  pursue to keep your sanity.

----------------

-- do not try to "pipe in" high pitched ringtones to your stereo speakers.   you have no way to trigger the noise so  the dogs will learn to quit barking.    If its perceived as random and capricious, the dogs may just bark even more.

-- use that birdhouse noisemaker or similar product.   if the one you have looks used, return it for a new one.   it is possible the one you have was returned because it's faulty.  there's no easy way for you to verify it.

 -- these devices are not illegal, and you do not need to hide it in your  house.  hiding it in your house, even with the window open, will likely  diminish the effectivity.
 
-- You need to have this  directed to the dogs area, and to hang this as close as possible

-- i would hang the device on a post that you stick in your ground, or similar fixture, as close as possible to the neighbors dogs. without being in reach from their yard.  the birdhouse that you have is weatherproof.  it will be okay to expose to elements.

-- I would suggest that you put the device out only in the evenings, and remove it in the morning because you will run the risk of having the thing stolen or broken.   You can opt to leave it out 24/7 if you think it wont be molested.

-- if you have any concern that it will be tampered with, set up a video camera from your house focused on it while you leave it out.

-- any time the dogs bark at night, start your camera up in the house, whisper what is going on, and then quietly move to a position where you can video the dogs without them seeing you.   Attempt to get several instances of single long unbroken recordings.   be sure to  turn on the time/date stamp for reference.

-- keep a log/diary of all dog-related events and interactions with the neighbors.

-- good luck










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and you can not send high pitched tone to annoy dog while listening to stereo at the same time.

the volume on the high-pitched signal needs to be very high decibel level to be effective.   you would blast yourself deaf if you were simultaneously playing music at that volume level.

the device you have uses a special speaker that has a very good frequency response for the high frequency signals.   it will make the high pitched sound very loud, to the point of being painful to the dogs.  

typical stereo speakers are not like this.    you will probably fry them to get that decibel level of a 22 kHz signal because of all the lower frequency noise present.

since you apparently have no electronic device prototyping background, do not bother trying to build your own.  it will be a  waste of time and money.

Do try the various commercial devices.  save your receipts and take them back if and when you determine they are not effective.








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ok, on the devices, and with them having a range of 50+ feet, they may work at 25 feet. It will be so close to them it, will be obvious what it is.

I did not want to start the anonymous letter from Animal Control )who enforces the nuisance law), until I tried these electronic devices.

It the neighbor sees it, and ask what it is, I'll say a veterinarian recommendation because your dogs bark for long periods of time in the middle of the night, so I decided to try one. Veterinarian do recommend these devices.

IF the device works, even their owners may LIKE THE end of the barking.

With the recommendation being 5 feet off the ground (at least for the birdhouse) it may be obvious that it is there. I can easily point it at the dogs, their cage is maybe 8x8.

I'll hope for chances to talk to the people besides knocking on their door.
They have zero options on the dogs but to get rid of them. Their yard can not support moving the cage and they won't allow 6 inside dogs. Moving the cage but keeping it in the back yard, moving it 20 feet further from me, won't help.
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>> They have zero options on the dogs but to get rid of them.

Not sure what you mean by "option"  ...  that's not normally an option for most people.   It wouldnt be an option for me, although my dog doesn't live outside.

 a couple tickets and a court appearance for nuisance violations will likely inspire them to actively control their dogs' barking.

but hopefully, either a neighborly conversation or high frequency audio pain compliance will solve the problem first.


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>> ok, on the devices, and with them having a range of 50+ feet, they may  work at 25 feet. It will be so close to them it, will be obvious what it  is.

Ooops.   my mistake.   i just realized something.    

Do Not put it too close, as i suggested.  My suggestions is wrong.

High frequency sounds are highly diirectional.    22kHz (or whatever) will have an extremely tight focus compared to normal audio.    If the instructions say to keep it at minimum of  ____  distance away, dont put it very much closer than that.    

otherwise, the dog may be able to physically avoid the signal.




>> It the neighbor sees it, and ask what it is, I'll say a  veterinarian recommendation because your dogs bark for long periods of  time in the middle of the night, so I decided to try one. Veterinarian  do recommend these devices.


That's a great idea.  

And let me back up just a moment.  I'm sure your neighbors are decent people.   But If at any point your neighbor gets agressive or hostile, or you have a feeling like you might be risking abuse from them, politely excuse yourself and leave immediately.   Of course, I'm sure you know this already.




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I've looked over the Internet and read some articles/reviews on these ultrasonic and high-pitched tone devices. All say that NO product will stop ALL dogs from barking. The manufacturers, of course, will say different in their ads, but when put to the test by professionals (like from Consumer Reports, independent labs, etc), these things just don't work 100% in all cases. Particularly in your case where multiple dogs are involved, I'd give any unit you buy about a 20% chance of working, max.
Since you won't close your window, use thick curtains, or try white noise, I suggest ear plugs. Not just any ear plugs, but those used for industial environments where decibel levels can approach those of a jet plane taking off.
The absolute best plugs you can buy are actually a sort of gel that hardens to a soft, rubbery substance. Looks like silly putty when you open the air-tight pouch. You cram the stuff in your ear (and I mean WAY in your ear), and let it harden. While it's hardening, you can stick a post/peg (kinda hard to describe) in each one. When hardening is finished, which takes just minutes, you take them out. They conform exactly to your ear, and are VERY comfortable. Easy to put in and take out. I used to use them at Kraft Foods (my first job after college). We'd tie a shoestring to each plug's "post" and wear them around our neck when not needed. But bottom line, with them in, you can hear absolutely NOTHING. Period.
Look here for a pseudo-example of the product. Someone figured out that while the gel was hardening, you could stick a tube through it, and your bluetooth phone headset, and hear the caller no matter what, and be comfortable at the same time:
http://www.bigearinc.com/home/Default.aspx
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rwjo4:
what I meant was if the judge ruled in my favor if it got that far, or if the animal control letter caused the owners to act, their options are:
1. move the cage to the front yard - that won't work because they have no front yard.
2. take the 4 dogs and keep them inside which would give them 6 inside dogs and I doubt that is an option for them.
3. get rid of them, this seems their only option if I have any success.
4. buy the $38 shock collars at my expense. I doubt they would do this.
So it seems #3 would be their only option and I doubt they would let a neighbor force them to get rid of the dogs.

VBClassicGuy:
As far as ear plugs I tried them with loud music. They were uncomfortable and created other misc sounds, like ears ringing, etc.
I could try again, possibly put up a 2 inch thick styrofoam over the window, etc.

rjw04:
you mention 22 kHz, that website for ultrasonic ring tones says 22 can be heard by people under age 18.
So how high a kHz does it need to be so no human can hear it.

I can not keep the window open in the winter so to be able point the device at the dogs, there are 2 trees and the side of the house to mount a device and it would not take long for someone to see it. I might even be seen installing it.


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>> rjw04: you mention 22 kHz, that website for ultrasonic ring tones says 22 can be heard by people under age 18.  So how high a kHz does it need to be so no human can hear it.

I dont know what frequency the device uses.   Dog whistles used for pain compliance training commonly use 22Hz.    

what's the physiological evidence for Human hearing range limit?  20 kHz, as a nominal average for the maximum.   will you ever find the exceptional person who can hear 22 kHz?   if you look hard enough... maybe ....  but not likely.    most adults can't hear above 12-15 kHz.  most children will not be able to hear above 20kHz.    

and of the people who can hear  the most extreme range, even those can only hear it just barely.     17.4 kHz "mosquito"  works for kids because it's highly annoying, but not at that most extreme end of the range.   some kids it wont annoy, but it will annoy enough of them so the social group will move elsewhere.

at any rate you're not going to crack open a commercial device to change the frequency, and i dont get the impression you're going to be building your own.   so dont worry about these sorts of technical details.  you real worry is if it works to shut the dogs up.  

the theory behind the device is a sound theory, but it doesn't work for every situation.  dogs that are too intelligent, or too willful, or too stupid fall outside the population for which it is effective.    the consensus seems to be that multiple dogs are harder to train as a group.  probably because one of the dogs doesn't work on and only makes bark more, and the other dogs just give up and bark too.

i get the feeling that with time, it will eventually work, even on the difficult dogs.  that they'll eventually figure it out and choose to not have the painful noise.

so maybe it will work for you.


>>  can not keep the window open in the winter so to be able point the  device at the dogs, there are 2 trees and the side of the house to mount  a device and it would not take long for someone to see it. I might even  be seen installing it.

i thought we resolved this?

why do you think you need secrecy?  

go post the damn thing in the middle of your yard and point it at their dog pen.  it's legal.  and it's ethical to use when the owners can't or won't deal with it.

now is it fair to keep it during the day?  I think I would turn it off during the day just for fairness to the dogs.   let a dog bark in the daytime, already.  You know?    I would  remove it daily if i feared vindictive neighbors would steal or break it while i was gone during the day.



 but, i still think talking to your neighbors, asking them for their help and/or suggestions, is your best first choice.


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I wouldn't be afraid of putting the noisemaker outside.  Like rwj04 said, completely legal, and not unreasonable. At a distance it's annoying to the dogs, not painfully tortuous.  If it's annoying to teenagers...well, maybe that's a plus.  It'll keep them away too.  :)

If you're that concerned about the appearance, then put it on a post with another birdhouse and maybe a bird feeder.  You might take offense at bird droppings and squirrels, but you can always leave the feeder empty.

Think of it this way, the chirp (call it a "chirp"...birds are sweet and innocent) can't be heard by the neighbors.  You don't want to wake them by whistling or shouting, and that might scare the dogs.  The chirp is just a reminder that the barking is too loud.

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rwj04:
but, i still think talking to your neighbors, asking them for their help and/or suggestions, is your best first choice.

....I'll look for opportunities to do that....!

I've got several things to try before it might get ugly.

ear plugs
insulated window
electronic devices

if the dog's bark does not wake me up, then no problem.
If I wake up and hear no barking and able to go back to sleep, then no problem.

If there were no dogs I'd still wake up a few times through out the night.

I'm not clear on why a dog barks continuously for 30-45-60 minutes, basically non stop.
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>If there were no dogs I'd still wake up a few times through out the night.

Sucks.  Been there.  As long as it doesn't conflict with other chemicals, 1-2 Benadryl 1-2 hours before bedtime.  (I have allergies, so it's double-duty.)  Got that recommendation straight from my doctor.


>I'm not clear on why a dog barks continuously for 30-45-60 minutes, basically non stop.

Lonely.  At some point they learned that barking continuously eventually leads to someone letting them out...or in...or some other form of attention.
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I've got some percentages in my favor.

The devices work on some dogs, unless the reviews are phony.
Most dogs sleep at night. Hopefully when the raccoons and possums are roaming around, the dogs will be asleep.

The last two nights they were an issue. Last night from 4:40am to 5:20am and I did nothing. The night before was the "water hose" attack, which worked.

Before that, the previous 7 nights were good. I either woke up when they were not barking, or they did not wake me up when they did bark.

I am not sure the devices (their web sites) quote a kHz, they just say humans can not hear it.

One idea that came from a source I can not remember, was a bright light that would be on a noise sensor and when they barked the light would attack their eyes. I doubt that would work, but who knows.

Young dogs so them passing on is years away. And as the years go by the kids get older and at some point in time dogs as pets for small kids decreases.

A look at the county website for GIS searches, it looks like these people bought the house in July 2007, so they have not been there that long. Changes happen in people's lives and who knows, they might have to move or I might have to move, for some reason unrelated to dogs.



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aaah benadryl. When I was a professional Putt-Putt touring pro, guys shared rooms. With my insomnia and others in the room watching TV until 2am, I tried benadryl from time to time.
I've tried as many as (6) 25 mg tablets and they are not that effective for me.

I'm being prescribed Xanax now and I take it before bedtime. It's life is only about 3-4 hours. So, by morning I have zero affects from taking it.


I forgot one option, my Uncle's idea. Move my bedroom into the living room......

On the cheap device I'm trying now, and with the other devices, they have to have clear space, so that is why the window is open. It's affectiveness is "non conclusive" after using it for two weeks. It says the maximum range is 20 feet. The dogs are maybe 25 feet from the device to them. I'll have to mount any new device on a tree or just under the roof on the side.

When I first started using it, their barking seemed to tail off a little, a rather weak attempt to bark. Maybe it was the device, but a great chance it was not the device.
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Unfortunately, only time will tell.  Best of luck.

I like the idea of the bedroom in the living room.  I usually fall asleep in front of the TV anyway.
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I like the idea of the bedroom in the living room.

........I guess that would be one of my last options, other than selling the house and moving.
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On the Xanax comment. I've been prone to anxiety/panic attacks since my early twenties. Tried every medicine you can name. Ones that work for me are Xanax and Valium.
The difference in the two is that Xanax acts quicker, but dosn't last long. Valium takes a little longer to take effect, but lasts much longer. Plus, Valium has muscle-relaxing properties, and a slight sedative effect. Perfect for help getting asleep. Anyway, been on Valium for years. Without meds, I also take an hour, sometimes two or three to fall asleep. Fortunately, once asleep, I stay asleep usually. But with Valium about 15 minutes before bedtime, I'm out like a light in about 15 to 30 minutes.
Maybe you should try it. And it's generic (cheap). I get 60 10mg tabs at CVS for $5.00 (I take one in th emorning, and one at night). It's so cheap the full retail price doesn't even come close to my $15 Rx deductable for generics.
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I'll check into valium.

There is a pattern to some of the barking. Last night, once again, there was a 5:00am event. I looked out the window and two dogs were walking down the street and "lingering" in the road, playing, instead of "moving on"

The non stop barking is always after 11pm or later.

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rwj04:

the lady waved again so I went over there. She was friendly but very slightly hesitant to tell me who lived there. I just said, do you and your husband live here or you have kids?
So, it seems there are 4 people living there and her grown kids have kids.
Then the bombshell, the furry dog they keep inside, just had puppies. Oh lord, I HAD to immediately say they have some pet adoption places in town that could find them good homes. She agreed to an extent.
Then another bombshell. The two dogs in the cage are supposed to be given to her older daughter but she has not gotten around to it. So there is a chance those two dogs will be headed out, at some point.

Hopefully the dog gods keep that possibility on the table.
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the $10 device has a range of 20 feet and the dogs are 24 feet. I'll skip the PetSafe birdhous model that has no led or a/c adapter and try the $89 one that has an a/c adapter and is water proof.
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thanks for the points.  this was an interesting and fun thread.

i hope you get it worked out.   im interested to hear how it finally resolves.   let us know.


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hopefully the lady does what she says she has intended to do, and gives the two dogs to her sister. I know one neighbor who approached the sheriff's officer that lives on the very opposite side of the dogs, and with him being 175 feet away from the dogs with a house in between, he just said the dog barking was not in his jurisdiction. He is correct it is a local police problem, and not sheriff, but then again he is too far to be botherd much, even if he was a light sleeper.

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