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IP Address Ranges

Posted on 2011-03-13
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Hi folks,

I'm in a procedure of making the network 'smaller' i.e. releasing all internal IP's that are not in use.
We have reserved 50 for example for servers and only use 35, etc.

All these devices reside on the 10.0.0.0 network with a subnet of 255.0.0.0.
Now I know this is a disaster as anyone can put a machine with any IP Address providing it starts with 10 on the network. This is not my concern however, the concern is I want to reduce all possible broadcast traffic. The network is not enourmous to worry about it however I still want to keep it as neat as possible.

The first thing I started doing was changing the subnet on all devices to 255.255.0.0 in the hope this would reduce any IP Addresses being used on the second octet for example (10.11.x.x). However, when I changed the IP Address of our NAS for example from 10.10.10.31 to 10.11.11.34 and changed my subnet from 255.0.0.0 to 255.255.0.0 I was still able to ping the NAS?

I thought that me having a 255.255.0.0 netmask would result in me not seeing any ip addresess outside 10.10.x.x

Can someone explain this to me why this is working, I dont want to start the whole project for nothing?

Thanks.
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Question by:dqnet
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by:Ernie Beek
ID: 35121871
Well if your networking device (router, switch) still has the 255.0.0.0 mask, it could be able to still see the whole network and route between them.
Just an example of the top of my head because I don't know the details of your network.
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by:jgibbar
ID: 35121874
What is the IP address from which you can ping the NAS? Do these devices still share the same Default Gateway? In your situation the Subnet mask may only help the device determine whether or not to use the Interface IP address of your equipment or the Default Gateway for your next hop. If the subnet mask of your gateway is still 255.0.0.0, it would still be able to communicate to the entire subnet.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35122008
Hmm, basically speaking the network layout is pretty straight forward.
We have a router connected to the internet on one interface and the other interface connected to a sonicwall. The inside of the router which is 192.168.x.x is connected to the outside of the sonicwall which also on the 192.168.x.x network.

The inside interface of the sonic wall is on the 10.10.10.xxx with the netmask at 255.0.0.0
All clients are pointing to the inside of the sonicwall which is as above 10.10.10.xxx

The machine that is pinging the NAS is 10.10.10.35 and the NAS is on 10.11.11.35
The replies are coming back fine.

The netmask on the test machine is 255.255.0.0 however the netmask on the NAS is 255.0.0.0

Could that be my problem?
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by:Ernie Beek
ID: 35122050
I think that is the issue. The netmask on the NAS is 255.0.0.0 so the ip of the test machine is withing the NASes network, so it will reply (change that to 255.255.0.0 and you shouldn't get a result).
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35122190
The NAS still must NOT have a default gateway, else that device will reroute ...
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by:Ernie Beek
ID: 35122204
@Qlemo: Quite correct (shame on me, should have added that more precisely).
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by:kdearing
ID: 35122421
From a design perspecitve, this is a mess.
Most experts will tell you it's not a good idea to have more than 250 - 500 devices in one broadcast domain (subnet)

I prefer to limit the subnets to one Class C (255.255.255.0)
Normally the subnets are grouped:
- logically; i.e. sales, engineering, etc.
- geographically; i.e.1st floor, 2nd floor, bldgA, bldgB, etc

There are several big advantages to subnetting your network in this way:
- performance
- security
- maintenance
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by:Fred Marshall
ID: 35123439
Is there another problem you're trying to solve.  I ask because I don't see a problem here yet ... other than some individual addressing questions.

You have already said that there aren't that many devices.
You have not suggested splitting the network up into subnets - and with not that many devices that makes sense.
Note that kdearing says:
Most experts will tell you it's not a good idea to have more than 250 - 500 devices in one broadcast domain
That's *DEVICES* not *ADDRESSES*.  The form of the address makes no difference in this regard - yet that seems to be what you want to change.

You mention:
Now I know this is a disaster as anyone can put a machine with any IP Address providing it starts with 10 on the network. This is not my concern

Well, shucks, anyone can put a machine with any IP Address providing it's ANY LAN subnet!
So, I'd agree that's not the biggest concern.

Please note that broadcast traffic has to be originated from a *device* and not from an *address*.  Broadcast messages are called "broadcast" becasue they are addressed to the one, single broadcast address and not all addresses on the subnet individually.  Thus, the address form has no impact on broadcast traffic whatsoever.

You don't have an ip address selection / assignment problem you say.
You don't have a broadcast traffic problem that will be fixed by changing the size of the subnet.

You might take a look at:
http://www.mission-systems-inc.com/How%20Subnets%20Work%20in%20Practice.pdf
To explain how you're able to ping this or that after changing some device ip settings......
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by:Fred Marshall
ID: 35123454
I did quote others in my last post but the quotes seem to not have "taken"???  Sorry for that.
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35124235
Well said, fmarshall. I have to fully agree to all points made.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35125470
Qlemo - Are you saying that the packets are arriving at the default gateway which is the SW and as the SQ has a netmask of 255.0.0.0 it is routing it back to the device on the 10.11.0.x range which is on the 255.255.0.0 range?
As the SW can see that range?

FMarshall - Thank you for your comments however it doesnt completely answer the question I'm trying to ask, the whole point is I am trying as such to repair the network as many would say I inherited it. The 10.0.0.x network is something I would love to segment and reduce flow of network traffic. Presently all computers and servers are on the 10.0.0.x network with a netmask of 255.0.0.0 and the printers and scanners are on the 10.11.0.0.

Can you advise how you would 'repair' the network? We have around 6 departments we can use for ranges or 3 floors we can use for ranges.
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35126659
Changing the IP addresses and narrowing the netmask will net help. You would need to physically separate the networks, e.g. by using VLANs, to be able to reduce netword traffic. VLANs again involve subnetting.
If your switches (or at least the main switch) are capable of using VLANs, you could separate the departments and/or floors easily, giving each an own subnet. Routing between VLANs is done by the switch then.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35128216
Our switches do not support VLANS. However we can introduce routers.
How do you advise to proceed? p.s. can you get back to me with regards to the question I sent a few posts back.
Just for curiosty sake. Many thanks! :)
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35129201
Maybe I can answer if you explain what you mean with SW and SQ?
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by:Fred Marshall
ID: 35129736
You can consider a number of things but so much of it will be specific to what you already have, your capabilities and resources, etc. etc.

How many computers are there?  You started sayinig not all that many.

The first thing that comes to mind is to segment by floor or department or something like that.  That's a design task.  I would start with something I *thinik* would work for me and then ask folks if that's heading in the right direction.  
Stuff like who can talk to/see who?  What elements must be common? Internet access(es)?  will be the design overview information.

As you proceed, you can refine this "top level view" into something that best matches what you already have and can plan the changes.  Planning the changes is very important and gives a mechanism for others to check the ideas / approach.

We have no idea what the servers do, etc. etc.
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by:Craig Beck
ID: 35130979
This should be quite an easy exercise.

Simply pick a range of IP addresses, say 10.11.12.0 / 255.255.255.0
You have less than 100 devices on your network from what I can make out, so this allows for at least 50% growth as the new subnet size is /24 (254 addresses).

Change the IP address on the router to 10.11.12.1, give everything on your network an IP address, change the subnet mask, set ALL default gateways to the router IP address and you're done.
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by:Fred Marshall
ID: 35133244
Respectfully, I still don't see the "problem".  I see some ideas about making changes but the suggested changes didn't equate to any known problem.

IP address allocations (on a list or spreadsheet or database) are just a "plan" and have little to do with actual addresses in use.  There are good ways to do this and worse ways.  For example, if you have a firewall web filter function that takes address ranges in CIDR notation then it's convenient to lump all users of one type into a CIDR-defined "subnet".  It's not really a subnet but its a way to identify computers with shorthand.  That is, instead of listing all "clerical employee's computers IP addresses" for the filtering process, you might use 192.168.128.0/29.  Now that *is* handy but not *too* compelling unless you have lots of computers to deal with.

I believe your questions *were* answered.  So perhaps you could reiterate?  That would help a lot.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35137785
OK guys..
Yes, our core switch does support vlans, that includes GVRP and PVE.

We have approx 165 machines 15 printers, 5 scanners, 33 servers and 2 NAS storage devices, 8 access points.
he 10.0.0.x space is ehausted and we need to expand. What is trying to be achieved is 'possibly segmenting' the 10th floor onto a vlan the 1st floor onto a vlan and the 5th floor on the 10.0.0.x network. the 5th floor is where the core equipment is located
I know the total amount might not add up to 254 the point is we are constalty adding machines and we are running out of space.

I just want to clean up the mess by having as you say separte lans for floors OR some sort of subnetting to reduce overall traffic. Basically, optimisation.


SW = SonicWall

Internet --> (WAN)Router(192.168.100.x)---->(192.168.100.y)Sonicwall(10.10.10.x)------>Switch and all devices connected.


Thanks
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by:dqnet
ID: 35137795
p.s. the switch is this and we have two of them on our network. We also have one spare but I want to keep that a spare : http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/switches/ps5718/ps9967/ps9986/data_sheet_c78-502278.pdf
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by:kdearing
ID: 35138676
Assuming you decide to assign the VLANs geographically:

10.1.1.0 /24    1st floor
10.1.5.0 /24    5th floor
10.1.10.0 /24  10th floor
10.1.20.0 /24  wireless

Many designer like to put the servers in their own VLAN as well

Note that alot of traffic will now go through the sonicwall, you may want to consider getting a Layer-3 switch for your core
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by:dqnet
ID: 35139896
Out of pure curiosty, why would traffic be going through the sonic wall...?
Wont the switch do all the traffic directing? I mean only traffic destined for 10.1.5.1 let's say will need to utilse the firewall..?


Is there no other way to do it with CIDR as such?
I mean sorry excuse the complete and utter ignorance, how would a vlan help? if a packet needs to get from 10.1.5.0 to 10.1.1.0 it will still need to utilise the network range?
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35140192
You are correct that the Core switch will do the VLAN routing, not the SonicWall.

VLANs help because the switch will not forward broadcasts across VLAN. Of course a router would do the same, but a router usually hasn't that much ports to have the networks physically separated - which would require a (non-managable) switch for each physical network in addition.

So a VLAN capable switch is best choice - it acts as router. You can put non-managable switches on each VLAN port, or connect servers etc. directly with the Core switch, which is your choice.
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35140211
Regarding CIDR only - no, as has been said before, CIDR is a logically means to separate networks, not a physical, and the broadcast stuff is related to physical connected devices, not IP addresses. A L2 switch (without VLANs) will forward all broadcast traffic to all ports.
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by:Craig Beck
ID: 35140340
If you want to allow traffic between VLANs use a Layer3 switch at the core as the guys are saying.
This should allow inter-VLAN routing at the core without forcing your firewall to do all the routing.
I'd suggest something like a Cisco 3560.

If you do have a need to block access between different VLANs/segments you can use ACLs to filter traffic based on IP address or port.
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by:kdearing
ID: 35142402
The switch will only pass traffic between VLANs if it is Layer-3 capable
The one you listed (SRW224G4) is not.
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by:Fred Marshall
ID: 35144003
craigbeck and others are right on ... you can split the building up into subnets but have to have some mechanism to interconnect them .. as in a router or other device like a Layer 3 switch.

CIDR is nothing more than an addressing *notation* .. so don't get too hung up on that term.  The operative term is "subnet".  How you write the addresses is a matter of prefernce and, often, how the equipment wants  their settings to be entered.  That's why I mentioned it.  And, when I did mention it I wasn't talking about your needed subnets at all.  Rather, about address allocation within a subnet for convenience of some setups - such as web filters, etc.

I believe that broadcast does have something to do with IP addresses ... thus the IP Broadcast Address for each real subnet.....
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by:dqnet
ID: 35144599
Ok, I now understand.

But as me and Qlemo suggested, why would the sonic wall need to do any routing, it has nothing to do with the setup? Lets say the sonicwall is 10.10.10.1 and the vlans are 10.10.2.x and 10.10.3.x
Only traffic destined for the Default Gateway being 10.10.10.1 would ever need to go through the sonicwall.
The switch will do the vlan routing so the sonicwall has no relevance in the setup. <-- -- craigbeck
I agree if you put them on seperate subnets it would as the default gateway would then do the routing (i think) but not if you are using vlans.

Secondly and lastly, if the switch is VLAN capable why would you need a layer 3 version. I understand layer 3 would do all the switching between the vlans but this switch also supports vlans?


So we can definitely use routers to acheive the same result?

Thanks, I promise we are nearly there. :)
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by:kdearing
ID: 35145183
It takes a Layer-3 device to route traffic between subnets.
Both firewalls and routers are Layer-3 devices

A normal switch is a Layer-2 device (even if it is VLAN-capable)

A Layer-3 switch is a combination of a switch and a router in one device.

Let's say you have a computer with an IP of 10.10.10.99 and you want to access a server with an IP of 10.10.2.20
Assume the network is subnetted for /24 masks

The computer knows (by the destination IP and its own mask) that the server is on a different subnet.
When this happens, the computer sends the traffic to its default gateway, the sonicwall 10.10.10.1
The Sonicwall (acting as a router) knows that the server is on another attached subnet and directs the traffic out that port.

The same thing happens in reverse when the server responds to the computer's request.
I knows the computer is on a different subnet, therefore sends the traffic to its default gateway, the Sonicwall

The only router you've mentioned so far is connected in front of the Sonicwall; it will never see this traffic.

If you choose to install a router on your internal network, it will need to be the default gateway for all devices (except the Sonicwall)
Its default gateway will be the SonicWall.

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by:Qlemo
ID: 35145836
The difference between a L3 Switch and a VLAN capable switch is that the latter can ONLY be used to setup static port tagging (a switch port gets a specific VLAN tag added), detect already VLAN-tagged packets (so no tag to add), and switch packets between the same VLANs (and untagged ports).

A L3 Switch will allow for routing between those VLANs, as if they were connected by an external router. Your SonicWall can do that. I don't know for your Core switch.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35154964
I understand the sonic wall knows its on a different subnet but how does it route it.. thats my point?
Is putting it on the 255.0.0.0 make it know that? I would have thought the sonic wall will just send the packet destind to 10.10.2.20 out of its default gateway being the 192.168.100x???

Basically how would the sonic wall know what to do with the packet?
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by:Ernie Beek
ID: 35155089
No it doesn't because It's on It's own network (due to the subnet) so no need sending it out the DG.
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by:kdearing
ID: 35155159
The Sonicwall (and any other Layer-3 device) builds a routing table based on known routes.
Anything attached to it is, of course, a known route.
It knows this because one of its interfaces is configured for that subnet.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35171101
So to conclude the sonicwall would know how to route the computers attached to the 10.10.1.0 on 255.255.255.0 with the abiliity to communicate to the 10.10.2.0 on a 255.255.255.0 purely because the sonicwall  has an ip address of 10.0.0.1 with 255.0.0.0 netmask?
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35171622
I've got some difficulties to make clear what we are talking about here exactly - does your SonicWall need to do the VLAN routing (because your Core Switch is not capable of VLAN routing), or is it only used to do the Internet stuff?
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by:Fred Marshall
ID: 35171882
re the sonicwall on a larger subnet see:

http://www.mission-systems-inc.com/How%20Subnets%20Work%20in%20Practice.pdf

Not recommended but this will explain perhaps *why* things happen.

Packets arriving at the sonicwall that are destined on *its* own subnet will possibly be redirected back onto the LAN side.  then hit the switch and go where they belong if the switch is doing the routing.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35182124
That paper explains it PERFECTLY.
So, basically because the sonicwall is on 255.0.0.0 it will know to put it back on the LAN because it belongs to all subnets on the 10.x.x.x. range???
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35182507
255.0.0.0 will allow to answer to all traffic from all subnets. But as explained earlier, a packet coming from 10.1.1.1 to 10.2.2.2 using the Sonicwall will NOT be routed - the Sonicwall thinks there is nothing to do, since the packet is on the same subnet.
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by:Fred Marshall
ID: 35182704
Actually, it depends and that's why I said: "will possibly be redirected back onto the LAN side" emphasis on "possibly".  
Many routers will do it.  Some routers won't.

But the idea that the Sonicwall thinks there is nothing to do isn't how the general case works.  It goes like this:

- launch a packet from one of the smaller subnets that's destined for a different subnet.  In that case the originating computer will send the packet to its *gateway* as the next hop.  When the packet arrives at the gateway, the gateway device will either forward the packet or drop it.  So, as above, it may forward it back onto the physical LAN wire and, thus, to the destination computer if the subnets are common on the wire.  If it drops it then it's as if it "thinks it doesn't have anything to do" but it really takes a deliberate action.  Now, if the packet were addressed to the other computer directly then, yes, that's what would happen.  BUT, the originating computer doesn't know to do that - so the packet is destined for the gateway as the next hop ... just as if the destination were gong to be on the gateway's WAN/internet side.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35365071
"Now, if the packet were addressed to the other computer directly then, yes, that's what would happen.  BUT, the originating computer doesn't know to do that - so the packet is destined for the gateway as the next hop ... just as if the destination were gong to be on the gateway's WAN/internet side."

This makes no sence?
If the packet were addressed to the computer directly? How can it be addressed to the computer directly.
Workstation A is connected to 10.10.1.1 on a 255.255.255.0
Workstation B is connected to 10.10.2.1 on a 255.255.255.0

they cant communicate between each other whatsoever unless the gateway that the packet is sent to is on the 255.255.0.0 because it will cover both the ranges. However there is no otherway the Workstation A can ever see Workstation B unless you drop the additional 255's from both subnets, So 255.255.0.0

Right?
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by:Fred Marshall
ID: 35371242
Perhaps I should not have said "directly"....
If the packet is addressed to the other computer on the other subnet then the routing table in the originating computer will send it to its gateway as the next hop.
The originating computer doesn't know to do anything else.

So, the packet is destined for the gateway as the next hop ... just as if the destination were going to be on the gateway's WAN/internt side.

I hope this helps.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35372350
Hi Fmarshall,

Just to confirm and close this thread finally :)
If the sonic wall was on the 255.255.0.0 and workstation a attempts to workstation b (as per the above example) the sonic wall will be able to route the packet? Like it wont just drop the packet as it is class a non-public address????


Presently, the computers are on 10.10.10.x on 255.255.255.0
Scanners are on 10.10.1.x and printers are on 10.10.3.x (all are on 255.0.0.0).
So obvioulsy there will be tons of broadcast traffic,will splitting up the networks give any performance gains (10.10.1.x on 255.255.255.0) and (10.10.2.x on 255.255.255.0) etc.

Since the default gateway would be 10.10.1.1 (would it overload the interface as all traffic between subnets will need to pass thorough it)?

What would be your advice on the above?
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by:Qlemo
ID: 35372541
We are talking about physically separated networks now, aren't we?
Routing between them will not overload any device - in particular when using scanners and printers.

As said before, and repeated several times, you won't see any performance gains in your case. Only if broadcasts consume a remarkable amount of bandwidth you might see any gain.
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Fred Marshall earned 250 total points
ID: 35380713
It's likely going to cause other problems if there are overlapping subnets.  That's because the *broadcast* addresses won't be the same.  You might imagine having broadcast packets going to some legit device IP address or not going to the broadcast listening address on some devices.

The paper I referred to was written to describe how things might *happen* as opposed to *work* - if that distinction makes sense.  For example, it can explain why certain out-of-LAN pings might work.  Perhaps I wasn't clear about that.

Here is one simple way to have multiple subnets that might be interconnected or not:

Internet gateway device: Router 1 WAN [public address] 10.0.0.1 for example.  Maybe the Sonicwall here....
Multiple commodity routers are connected to the Router 1 LAN side:
Router 2 WAN 10.0.0.2 with LAN 2 10.0.2.0/24
Router 3 WAN 10.0.0.3 with LAN 3 10.0.3.0/24
Router 4 WAN 10.0.0.4 with LAN 4 10.0.4.0/24
etc.

with no added routing, none of the subnets can "see" each other.  With added routing, they can.
All subnets can see the internet vua Router 1.   All subnets can see the WAN side of Routers 2-4 but that's all.

Example routes:

We want LAN 2 to see LAN 3 (and vice versa of course):
Add route in Router 2
10.0.3.0/24 to 10.0.0.3
Add route in Router 3
10.0.2.0/24 to 10.0.0.2

Unless similar routes are set up involving LAN 4, then there won't be communications between LAN 4 and LANs 2,3.  But, if you want traffic between LAN 4 and LAN 2, set up as above.
And, if you want traffic between LAN 4 and LAN 3, set up as above.
If you did all that then there would be 2 routes in each router pointing to the other 2 LANs.
All broadcast traffic will be limited to the individual LANs.

I hope that's clearer.
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Author Comment

by:dqnet
ID: 35662531
FMarshall - That is exactly what I was talking about.

Using the above method, would I be right in saying you have increased the performance of the LAN by reducing broadcast traffic to only the particular subnet as the routers will obviously not forward broadcast traffic?
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by:Qlemo
Qlemo earned 250 total points
ID: 35687586
The layout shown above will reduce broadcast traffic. You cannot say it improves performance, as long as you do not have overly much broadcast traffic now. Broadcasts are not bad in general, only if they are sent to often, and consuming a notable part of the bandwidth.
Further, if communication between the different LANs built with above method needs to happen often, you might introduce bottlenecks on the "WAN" backbone LAN, because more traffic has to pass routers (which always introduce an additional delay, since they have to analyze packet contents in a more thorough way than switches).
That is different with VLANs, as the L3 switch is optimized to makes the necessary decisions.
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by:dqnet
ID: 35688192
Perfect. Simply Perfect. Thanks mate. Answered the exact question I needed answering.
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