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Abu Ghraib 2 and Obama?

Posted on 2011-03-21
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Last Modified: 2012-05-11
I imagine this is about to become BIG news.  

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/21/us-army-kill-team-afghanistan-posed-pictures-murdered-civilians

The Bush administration took a lot of heat for Abu Ghraib.  Will the same standard be applied to the Obama Administration or will the media do the usual Obama free pass?

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Question by:carsRST
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14 Comments
 
LVL 2

Assisted Solution

by:beetos
beetos earned 80 total points
ID: 35183746
Will the same standard be applied to the Obama Administration or will the media do the usual Obama free pass?

These are different situations - Abu Ghraib was a scandal in which violence against prisoners was institutionalized down the chain of command, and the leaked pictures exposed the scandal.

In this case, the soldiers involved are already on trial facing life imprisonment or death if convicted.  

So it would seem the Obama administration has been proactive in prosecuting this horrendous crime committed by a small group of individuals, vs. the Bush admin allowing institutionalized abuses to occur with impunity.  

Since the situations are different, it would seem that the media reaction may be different as well.  I don't see that as a free pass, or anything else you're trying to infer.

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LVL 16

Author Comment

by:carsRST
ID: 35183817
>>Abu Ghraib was a scandal in which violence against prisoners was institutionalized down the chain of command

That's news to me.
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Expert Comment

by:beetos
ID: 35183849
That's why you need more than just Fox.
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LVL 16

Author Comment

by:carsRST
ID: 35183863
Where in the chain of command are you saying it started?
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LVL 4

Expert Comment

by:Analog_Kid
ID: 35191802
It seems reasonably clear these policies originated from the top down through the chain of command. A few bad apples?

Commander in Chief Authorizes Abu Ghraib Torture;
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=1348

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld wrote in a 2002 interrogation memo; Re: Forced Standing / stress positions: "Why is standing limited to four hours?" ... "I stand for 8-10 hours a day,"
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/waronterror/p/torturelite.htm

Lieutenant General Ricardo A. Sanchez authorizing 29 interrogation techniques, including 12 which far exceeded limits established by the Army's own Field Manual;

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/interrogation-techniques-approved-lieutenant-general-sanchez-included-intimidation

George W. Bush has publicly admitted that he authorized torture;
http://www.impeachbush.org/site/News2/720886993?page=NewsArticle&id=5463&news_iv_ctrl=1281

Torture-tell-all;
http://books.google.com/books?id=tvVEN13aCBUC&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=Abu+Ghraib+memo+%22Paul+Wolfowitz+%22&source=bl&ots=HPP70M88gi&sig=1RRRl5eJ1MDPuJoL3OcO1odxtFE&hl=en&ei=x9GITavGI6ix0QGY6siGDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Abu%20Ghraib%20memo%20%22Paul%20Wolfowitz%20%22&f=false

George Bush Can't Travel Overseas for Fear of Arrest and Prosecution
http://www.alternet.org/world/149855/george_bush_can%27t_travel_overseas_for_fear_of_arrest_and_prosecution
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LVL 16

Author Comment

by:carsRST
ID: 35191908
Analog_Kid,

So are you concluding that Obama authorized the actions outlined in the news article posted in the original question, given, just as happened with Bush, these actions happened on Obama's watch?

And we'll see the same type of propaganda on Obama as you've listed in ID  35191802?

After all, Obama did illegally (by his own definition) bomb Libya, contradicting what he said in 2007:
the President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.” 12/20/2007


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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:beetos
ID: 35192575
Cars,  

The original question compared Bush and Abu Ghraib to Obama and a murderous group of soldiers who committed heinous crimes.  

I then suggested that they are different situations:  The incident which occurred under Bush exploded when the pictures surfaced, and the administration had to react to it.  Through the course of the investigation, it became evident that the mistreatment of prisoners was institutionalized from the top down, as evidenced by what Analog_Kid has put forth.

Regarding the situation with Obama, the soldiers are already facing trial for their crimes, and may be executed as a result.  There is no indictment of the armed forces in general as condoning or promoting this behavior, and if there was, we'd be in serious trouble as a nation.


So, as you can see, it's an entirely different set of circumstances.  Why are you expecting the same results or trying to assign the same blame?    You're question about Libya is definitely valid on it's own, but in the context of this thread it almost seems like you just don't like Obama and want to see him blamed for something, anything, just as long as the media disparages him.
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LVL 16

Author Comment

by:carsRST
ID: 35192718
The question is :
"Will the same standard be applied to the Obama Administration or will the media do the usual Obama free pass?"

Still not answered.

So far the media has ignored.  Had this been Bush I would gather we'd see more articles as posted by AK.


>>it became evident that the mistreatment of prisoners was institutionalized from the top down, as evidenced by what Analog_Kid has put forth

I saw no evidence, other than a very large (by any imagination) stretch that Bush was responsible since he determined al qaeda did not qualify for "geneva convention rights."  The part on the Taliban is false.  That argument is as embarrassing as it is stupid.


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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:beetos
ID: 35192922
Would you admit that there was an investigation, and it centered not only on the actual guards but everyone involved at Abu Ghraib, including officers and leaders who may not have been there?    Would you admit that there were reports on the subject,  with names which were higher in the chain of command that had been redacted?

>>So far the media has ignored.  Had this been Bush I would gather we'd see more articles as posted by AK.

>>I saw no evidence, other than a very large (by any imagination) stretch that Bush was responsible since he determined al qaeda did not qualify for "geneva convention rights."  The part on the Taliban is false.  That argument is as embarrassing as it is stupid.

Ok now which is it?  Do the articles qualify as evidence or not?  If they don't, and they're just a "stretch of the imagination" does that mean that if there is media criticism of Obama in the current situation also just a "stretch of the imagination"?  

OR - perhaps the media hasn't assigned blame to Obama for the acts of  a renegade bunch of soldiers who went on a sadistic killing spree because HE AND HIS POLICIES HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT?
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LVL 16

Author Comment

by:carsRST
ID: 35193114
The incidents at AG were not generated or advocated by Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld.  The blame for it is at a very low level.  Any responsibility higher than these lower levels was a fabrication created by Time and the NYTs.

Again, this story is shockingly getting little attention and the white house has yet to comment.  

>>Ok now which is it?  Do the articles qualify as evidence or not?
All of AK's sources are from far left web sites.  I don't take impeachbush.org too seriously.  But Dennis Kucinich is calling for Obama's impeachment, so impeachobama.org may be arising soon.



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LVL 2

Expert Comment

by:beetos
ID: 35194583
Ok, so now what do you want - if these "far left websites" like the NYT attack Obama for the acts of a dozen soldiers who his administration is already prosecuting, will they then suddenly become credible in your eyes?  Or are you looking for different media outlets to criticize him.  

Because if that's all you're really after, I can point you to a couple of major media outlets that will criticize him for anything, down to how he greets his wife and what he puts on his hamburger.  If I point you to those places, will you give me the 50 points?
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LVL 33

Accepted Solution

by:
knightEknight earned 120 total points
ID: 35219374
Obama had no more to do with this than Bush & Co. did with A.G.  But you are right -- the media has completely ignored images that are at least as damaging to the U.S. as the A.G. photos were.  Certainly these acts were even more heinous.  I hope the perpetrators never see daylight again.
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LVL 16

Author Closing Comment

by:carsRST
ID: 35316571
The media hypocrisy is stunning.
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