Wisconsin recall effort
Will the Wisconsin recall effort work?
I'm a registered independent from Ohio -- What happens only effects me when the same crap is pulled in Ohio, probably in the near future.
But I do want to applaud and support the Republicans (and any elected official) that realizes we're broke and need a small "r" republican government.
But I heard about this: Frontline Wisconsin - American Taxpayers Can Prevail which is looking for donations to help the Senators fight the recall effort. I threw a few bucks that way.
Just wanted to put this out so those who want to help -- or not.
So the obligatory question: What was your opinion on the Wisconsin debacle?
I'm a registered independent from Ohio -- What happens only effects me when the same crap is pulled in Ohio, probably in the near future.
But I do want to applaud and support the Republicans (and any elected official) that realizes we're broke and need a small "r" republican government.
But I heard about this: Frontline Wisconsin - American Taxpayers Can Prevail which is looking for donations to help the Senators fight the recall effort. I threw a few bucks that way.
Just wanted to put this out so those who want to help -- or not.
So the obligatory question: What was your opinion on the Wisconsin debacle?
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ASKER
The Wisconsin Democrats did what they could to prevent a bad bill. What they did was much like what Republicans have done in the US Senate to block the will of the majority, although they have done it too often and without constructive intent.
Please cite the opinion polls that had Obamacare over 50% (let alone a super majority) at anytime?
Your premise that we need smaller government is incorrect. We had too little oversight of Wall Street and look what that produced. Our problem is not too much spending.
Please let me know how the U.S. government can spend more money than income for 10+ years and not be broke. If you spent more than your income (via credit cards and home equity loans) and expect to be solvent, please let me know.
Wall Street did/does have oversight. But part of the issue is that Wall Street was buying AAA securities backed by loans FNMA/FHFA, as government-sponsored enterprise (GSE), issued. Between the CRA and the rest of the social issues, people were buying homes they didn't qualify for.
It is too little income caused by bad trade policies that have led to the export of too many American jobs. Even Alan Keyes recognized that.
It is great that Alan Keyes exporting jobs has a negative effect on our economy; but that is not the only issue.
Liar loans, low interest rates, the simple fact that the fed is spending at least $1,000,000,000,000 (1 Trillion) more more than income has absolutely no effect on the economy.
Cutting spending and crushing workers is exactly the wrong thing to be doing. The Republicans and the Tea Party will send us into a death spiral if they have their way. When Americans lose their jobs and remain unemployed or are forced to take jobs at much lower wages, or when union bashing and importing cheap labor keeps wages down, many others will eventually suffer from the declining economy. Those who are unemployed or under-employed will buy fewer products (such as cars) and fewer services; they will defer whatever expenses they can. The entire economy suffers when too many people lose their jobs.
Where in the Constitution does it say the government has to give us equal outcomes?
It is true that we should cut back on unnecessary expenses, such as foreign wars and tax cuts for the over-compensated, but we should not be eliminating teachers, border patrol officers, air traffic controllers, Wall Street and banking regulators, food inspectors, and the like.
The teachers are a state -- not federal responsibility.
border patrol officers -- If they actually did their job I could agree. When you have Arizona attacked for actually asking for if you have a driver's license -- you have lost credibility.
air traffic controllers the FAA is a fed issue. But I wonder why the FAA couldn't be privatized.
Wall Street and banking regulators AQnd what did they prevent?
food inspectors: The FDA and USDA are post 1950. If they weren't in place then, why aren't we all dead?
Post some more and we can debate the issues.
Please cite the opinion polls that had Obamacare over 50% (let alone a super majority) at anytime?
Your premise that we need smaller government is incorrect. We had too little oversight of Wall Street and look what that produced. Our problem is not too much spending.
Please let me know how the U.S. government can spend more money than income for 10+ years and not be broke. If you spent more than your income (via credit cards and home equity loans) and expect to be solvent, please let me know.
Wall Street did/does have oversight. But part of the issue is that Wall Street was buying AAA securities backed by loans FNMA/FHFA, as government-sponsored enterprise (GSE), issued. Between the CRA and the rest of the social issues, people were buying homes they didn't qualify for.
It is too little income caused by bad trade policies that have led to the export of too many American jobs. Even Alan Keyes recognized that.
It is great that Alan Keyes exporting jobs has a negative effect on our economy; but that is not the only issue.
Liar loans, low interest rates, the simple fact that the fed is spending at least $1,000,000,000,000 (1 Trillion) more more than income has absolutely no effect on the economy.
Cutting spending and crushing workers is exactly the wrong thing to be doing. The Republicans and the Tea Party will send us into a death spiral if they have their way. When Americans lose their jobs and remain unemployed or are forced to take jobs at much lower wages, or when union bashing and importing cheap labor keeps wages down, many others will eventually suffer from the declining economy. Those who are unemployed or under-employed will buy fewer products (such as cars) and fewer services; they will defer whatever expenses they can. The entire economy suffers when too many people lose their jobs.
Where in the Constitution does it say the government has to give us equal outcomes?
It is true that we should cut back on unnecessary expenses, such as foreign wars and tax cuts for the over-compensated, but we should not be eliminating teachers, border patrol officers, air traffic controllers, Wall Street and banking regulators, food inspectors, and the like.
The teachers are a state -- not federal responsibility.
border patrol officers -- If they actually did their job I could agree. When you have Arizona attacked for actually asking for if you have a driver's license -- you have lost credibility.
air traffic controllers the FAA is a fed issue. But I wonder why the FAA couldn't be privatized.
Wall Street and banking regulators AQnd what did they prevent?
food inspectors: The FDA and USDA are post 1950. If they weren't in place then, why aren't we all dead?
Post some more and we can debate the issues.
""What was your opinion on the Wisconsin debacle? ""
My opinion is that no matter what type of anti-union legislation they pass... the right to collectively bargain will always exist so long as the option to strike is on the table. Employees are not "slaves"...when all else fails... strike.
The only difference is ....that instead of the government negotiation with a representative of an angry mob...they have to negotiate with the angry mob itself.
On the recall effort itself... it's completely absurd. In democracy you get what you vote for and what you don't vote against.... so Wis. is going to get the results of what the majority voted for and it will be a lesson learned for better or worse.
My opinion is that no matter what type of anti-union legislation they pass... the right to collectively bargain will always exist so long as the option to strike is on the table. Employees are not "slaves"...when all else fails... strike.
The only difference is ....that instead of the government negotiation with a representative of an angry mob...they have to negotiate with the angry mob itself.
On the recall effort itself... it's completely absurd. In democracy you get what you vote for and what you don't vote against.... so Wis. is going to get the results of what the majority voted for and it will be a lesson learned for better or worse.
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""Jimmy Carter and Congress ended collective bargaining rights for federal workers. What is good for the Fed should be good for the States. ""
No, actually Jimmy Carter limited bargaining rights for federal employees...he didn't end them
It still makes little difference for what I just said.
When all else fails... the option to strike still exists. They can't force people to work, obviously.
So if every teacher decided to ...not go to work...the state can either A) fire them all, or B) choose to negotiate with the angry mob. Chances are firing them all is not a viable option, since teaching jobs can't be filled by unqualified people. You have to have a degree in teaching, to be able to take a newly opened teaching job...
The right to "collective bargaining"... is inherent in our right to peaceful assembly, with or without legislation stating as much.
No, actually Jimmy Carter limited bargaining rights for federal employees...he didn't end them
It still makes little difference for what I just said.
When all else fails... the option to strike still exists. They can't force people to work, obviously.
So if every teacher decided to ...not go to work...the state can either A) fire them all, or B) choose to negotiate with the angry mob. Chances are firing them all is not a viable option, since teaching jobs can't be filled by unqualified people. You have to have a degree in teaching, to be able to take a newly opened teaching job...
The right to "collective bargaining"... is inherent in our right to peaceful assembly, with or without legislation stating as much.
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xuserx2000:
>>On the recall effort itself... it's completely absurd. In democracy you get what you vote for and what you don't vote against....
Except that Wisconsin has statutes that allow the voters an oppurtunity for a second chance to vote against. I don't think it is absurd. I like the idea.
>>On the recall effort itself... it's completely absurd. In democracy you get what you vote for and what you don't vote against....
Except that Wisconsin has statutes that allow the voters an oppurtunity for a second chance to vote against. I don't think it is absurd. I like the idea.
I'm aware of what the Civil Service Reform Act did, which is why I said....""actually Jimmy Carter limited bargaining rights for federal employees...he didn't end them""
""Pretty BIG limits, the option to strike does not exist!""
Yes they were big limits. You are however confusing "option", with "right". The option always exists. The right to strike means you won't be fired for striking, and you won't be paid either. The option to strike means you can still strike but could be fired.
""Ask the air controllers about that one.""
...nobody forced them back on the job. They had the option to be fired and many of them did in fact quit.
""Plenty of children get home schooling"""
...yes, those kids are called stupid, and you'll find 20 years later flipping your hamburgers.
""Pretty BIG limits, the option to strike does not exist!""
Yes they were big limits. You are however confusing "option", with "right". The option always exists. The right to strike means you won't be fired for striking, and you won't be paid either. The option to strike means you can still strike but could be fired.
""Ask the air controllers about that one.""
...nobody forced them back on the job. They had the option to be fired and many of them did in fact quit.
""Plenty of children get home schooling"""
...yes, those kids are called stupid, and you'll find 20 years later flipping your hamburgers.
The option always exists. The right to strike means you won't be fired for striking, and you won't be paid either. The option to strike means you can still strike but could be fired.
1.Federal employees are denied by statute the right to strike.
Yes, you are right you always have the option to be kicked out on your ass if you refuse to work.
...nobody forced them back on the job. They had the option to be fired and many of them did in fact quit.
No, they did not quit, they were fired. Many beggeed to be hired back, but .......
...yes, those kids are called stupid, and you'll find 20 years later flipping your hamburgers.
I do not know where you live, but in study after study, the home schooled kids score better on tests than those in conventional state-run schools.
1.Federal employees are denied by statute the right to strike.
Yes, you are right you always have the option to be kicked out on your ass if you refuse to work.
...nobody forced them back on the job. They had the option to be fired and many of them did in fact quit.
No, they did not quit, they were fired. Many beggeed to be hired back, but .......
...yes, those kids are called stupid, and you'll find 20 years later flipping your hamburgers.
I do not know where you live, but in study after study, the home schooled kids score better on tests than those in conventional state-run schools.
So.... WI voted yesterday.
The Milwaukee County Executive position (Scott Walker's job before he become Gov.) was between a guy named Stone (R) and a guy name Abele (D). Stone is a WI assemblyman who voted for Walker's bill. Abele is a wealthy entrepreneur, a drunkard, womanizer and has paid over $15,000 in parking tickets in the past 3 years. Abele, barely a mediocre excuse for a human, trounced Stone easily because Stone was linked to Walker.
The big election was for the State Supreme court between Prosser and Klopenburg. Prosser has held the job of supreme court justice for over 20 years. In the last election he won 99.55% of the vote. That is not a mistype -- Prosser took *nearly* 100% of the vote in his last election. In yesterday's election Prosser barely managed 50% of the vote. Kloppenburg has declared victory, but by a margin of a mere 200 votes out of 1.5 million.
The Dems are claiming this is a referendum against Walker. Walker dismisses this as fickle voters making decisions that are unrelated to him/his politics. Regardless of whether this is a referendum or not this is going to be a huge momentum gain for the Dems in their quest to unseat 8 Repub senators.
Further, of the 16 senators threatened with recall, 2 have received enough signatures to actually trigger a recall. *IF* one more senator has a recall triggered *AND* they are successfully recalled then the senate will have democratic majority AND (if Kloppenburg wins the eventual recount) the supreme court will be decidedly more liberal than it's been in 20 years.
Bottom line: Walker legislation will not survive long in this environment if all this comes to fruition.
Kloppenburg has declared victory, but by a margin of a mere 200 votes out of 1.5 million.
"Liberals declared victory earlier in the week when initial vote tallies showed Kloppenburg with a razor-thin lead. But in a surprising turn of events, Prosser surged ahead with a 7,500-vote lead on Thursday after a clerk from a predominantly GOP county announced she had incorrectly entered vote totals." ( http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20052226-503544.html )
Stay tunned for further developments.
"Liberals declared victory earlier in the week when initial vote tallies showed Kloppenburg with a razor-thin lead. But in a surprising turn of events, Prosser surged ahead with a 7,500-vote lead on Thursday after a clerk from a predominantly GOP county announced she had incorrectly entered vote totals." ( http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20052226-503544.html )
Stay tunned for further developments.
""'Yes, you are right you always have the option to be kicked out on your ass if you refuse to work."""
....and that's all i'm saying. You cannot end collective bargaining, because we have the right to assembly, we always have the "option" to strike or to boycott, and protest.. etc etc.
Regardless of what they put on paper, a strike can still occur, a walkout can still occur.
It is unrealistic to believe that Wis. could simply ...fire all of their teachers, police, fire departments,... simultaneously. That would be political suicide for whoever is perceived to be the "guy in charge" at the time.
Like I said...without Unions, or "collective bargaining".. the only difference is that instead of negotiating with a representative of an angry mob the state will be negotiating with the mob itself.
....and that's all i'm saying. You cannot end collective bargaining, because we have the right to assembly, we always have the "option" to strike or to boycott, and protest.. etc etc.
Regardless of what they put on paper, a strike can still occur, a walkout can still occur.
It is unrealistic to believe that Wis. could simply ...fire all of their teachers, police, fire departments,... simultaneously. That would be political suicide for whoever is perceived to be the "guy in charge" at the time.
Like I said...without Unions, or "collective bargaining".. the only difference is that instead of negotiating with a representative of an angry mob the state will be negotiating with the mob itself.
It is unrealistic to believe that Wis. could simply ...fire all of their teachers, police, fire departments,... simultaneously. That would be political suicide for whoever is perceived to be the "guy in charge" at the time.
I believe that police and fire departments are not covered by the new law and are still able to use collective bargaining. In the case of the teachers, I could easially see them firing all of them (the ones who go on an illegal strike). Even in the case of police, I could see it happening, and having Wisconsin National Guard take over during the time it takes to replace the fired officers.
As to the political suicide, well .... maybe, but braking the unions did not hurt Margeret Thatcher's career.
I believe that police and fire departments are not covered by the new law and are still able to use collective bargaining. In the case of the teachers, I could easially see them firing all of them (the ones who go on an illegal strike). Even in the case of police, I could see it happening, and having Wisconsin National Guard take over during the time it takes to replace the fired officers.
As to the political suicide, well .... maybe, but braking the unions did not hurt Margeret Thatcher's career.
"""I believe that police and fire departments are not covered by the new law """"
....lol.. guess which unions contributed to Walker's campaign.
"""In the case of the teachers, I could easially see them firing all of them """
...and replace them with ...what ?
....lol.. guess which unions contributed to Walker's campaign.
"""In the case of the teachers, I could easially see them firing all of them """
...and replace them with ...what ?
and replace them with ...what ?
None union teachers.
None union teachers.
Good luck finding enough non-union teachers to fill those positions. You can't just create teachers out of thin air. You can't fill those positions with just anyone,... teaching requires a college degree for a reason.
Fact is..if all the teachers walked out, the school year is over unless their demands are met, and that would jeapordize the education path of every student in Wis.
It would be political suicide. Even the majority of conservatives still think public schools are a necessity, along with most people in general.
Fact is..if all the teachers walked out, the school year is over unless their demands are met, and that would jeapordize the education path of every student in Wis.
It would be political suicide. Even the majority of conservatives still think public schools are a necessity, along with most people in general.
ASKER
Fact is..if all the teachers walked out, the school year is over unless their demands are met, and that would jeopardize the education path of every student in Wis.
Considering the brouhaha over even just trying to pass the law, I think the teachers striking to get collective bargaining back would finally push the population over the edge about how the unions are manipulating the system.
Even the majority of conservatives still think public schools are a necessity, along with most people in general.
It might be in some state constitutions -- but education (and a bunch of other things) isn't in the U.S. Constitution.
Considering the brouhaha over even just trying to pass the law, I think the teachers striking to get collective bargaining back would finally push the population over the edge about how the unions are manipulating the system.
Even the majority of conservatives still think public schools are a necessity, along with most people in general.
It might be in some state constitutions -- but education (and a bunch of other things) isn't in the U.S. Constitution.
Lot's of things aren't in the constitution... let's not get into that one.
"""I think the teachers striking to get collective bargaining back would finally push the population over the edge """
Teachers are also part of that population, and their families and friends who support them are as well. This is not a "popular" initiative, it's not on any ballot to be voted on. This is a clear case of some politicians being elected, then going forward with a very controversial agenda pretending they have some sort of mandate on an issue that was hardly even part of their campaign.
Scott Walker campaigned on cutting taxes and creating jobs, and never spoke in any public forum about "union busting" during the course of his campaign.
Of all the people out there protesting in Wis. ...you have to realize that many of them actually voted for Walker. Do you think only Democrats and liberals become teachers, or work for the state ?
"""I think the teachers striking to get collective bargaining back would finally push the population over the edge """
Teachers are also part of that population, and their families and friends who support them are as well. This is not a "popular" initiative, it's not on any ballot to be voted on. This is a clear case of some politicians being elected, then going forward with a very controversial agenda pretending they have some sort of mandate on an issue that was hardly even part of their campaign.
Scott Walker campaigned on cutting taxes and creating jobs, and never spoke in any public forum about "union busting" during the course of his campaign.
Of all the people out there protesting in Wis. ...you have to realize that many of them actually voted for Walker. Do you think only Democrats and liberals become teachers, or work for the state ?
>>xuserx2000:
Good luck finding enough non-union teachers to fill those positions. You can't just create teachers out of thin air. You can't fill those positions with just anyone,... teaching requires a college degree for a reason.
I remember when Reagan Fired the air traffic controllers. No one, including the air traffic contollers, thought he could or he would. He did. It can happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)
"On August 5, following the PATCO workers' refusal to return to work, Reagan fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order,[6][7] and banned them from federal service for life. (This ban was later rescinded by President Bill Clinton in 1993.)[8] In the wake of the strike and mass firings the FAA was faced with the task of hiring and training enough controllers to replace those that had been fired, a hard problem to fix as at the time it took three years in normal conditions to train a new controller"
Good luck finding enough non-union teachers to fill those positions. You can't just create teachers out of thin air. You can't fill those positions with just anyone,... teaching requires a college degree for a reason.
I remember when Reagan Fired the air traffic controllers. No one, including the air traffic contollers, thought he could or he would. He did. It can happen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)
"On August 5, following the PATCO workers' refusal to return to work, Reagan fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order,[6][7] and banned them from federal service for life. (This ban was later rescinded by President Bill Clinton in 1993.)[8] In the wake of the strike and mass firings the FAA was faced with the task of hiring and training enough controllers to replace those that had been fired, a hard problem to fix as at the time it took three years in normal conditions to train a new controller"
The most important part of that paragraph...
""""In the wake of the strike and mass firings the FAA was faced with the task of hiring and training enough controllers to replace those that had been fired, a hard problem to fix as at the time it took three years in normal conditions to train a new controller"""
3 years in normal condition to train a controller...
Teaching degree is minimum 4 years in most places. 6 if you are teaching developmentally challenged kids.
Either way you slice it, the situations are not the same.
So all the kids in Wis. will get a 3-4 year extended summer vacation while we wait for new teachers to graduate college so they can work for less money and less benefits ?
Unlikely....
A more likely scenario...
I'm going to college in Wis. I just graduated. I'm moving to another state that treats their teachers like the professionals they are.
People do not go to college so they can make the same amount of money as a waitress...that makes no sense. You won't have people jumping at the opportunity to make 35k per year in a thankless job with crap benefits, when a degree is required to do the job.
I have telemarketers outside my office door right now that make more money than that, and half of them didn't even graduate high school.
""""In the wake of the strike and mass firings the FAA was faced with the task of hiring and training enough controllers to replace those that had been fired, a hard problem to fix as at the time it took three years in normal conditions to train a new controller"""
3 years in normal condition to train a controller...
Teaching degree is minimum 4 years in most places. 6 if you are teaching developmentally challenged kids.
Either way you slice it, the situations are not the same.
So all the kids in Wis. will get a 3-4 year extended summer vacation while we wait for new teachers to graduate college so they can work for less money and less benefits ?
Unlikely....
A more likely scenario...
I'm going to college in Wis. I just graduated. I'm moving to another state that treats their teachers like the professionals they are.
People do not go to college so they can make the same amount of money as a waitress...that makes no sense. You won't have people jumping at the opportunity to make 35k per year in a thankless job with crap benefits, when a degree is required to do the job.
I have telemarketers outside my office door right now that make more money than that, and half of them didn't even graduate high school.
Teaching degree is minimum 4 years in most places.
That's a 4 year college degree (BS or BA) and passing a teaching certification. States also extend temporary and emergency licenses that bypass state licensing requirements if they need to. In addition states also have reciprocity agreements that make it easier for teachers licensed in one state to become licensed in another.
With the current unemployment rates, and a number of college educated unemployed, filling those positions should be a breeze.
Sorry, but teaching kids is not Rocket Science. And, yes these teachers will not be as good as the ones who will now be unemployed (and who btw, will not be eligible for unemployment), but that will be corrected quickly.
That's a 4 year college degree (BS or BA) and passing a teaching certification. States also extend temporary and emergency licenses that bypass state licensing requirements if they need to. In addition states also have reciprocity agreements that make it easier for teachers licensed in one state to become licensed in another.
With the current unemployment rates, and a number of college educated unemployed, filling those positions should be a breeze.
Sorry, but teaching kids is not Rocket Science. And, yes these teachers will not be as good as the ones who will now be unemployed (and who btw, will not be eligible for unemployment), but that will be corrected quickly.
""filling those positions should be a breeze. """
...If you say so. lol.
You make a lot of assumptions Leon.
Your opinion is in the minority...not the majority. You've told me already how you feel about public schools anyway, so i'm not surprised by your comments the least bit.
I guess that would be your idea on pushing people to home school their children ?
Simply gut the public school fire all the real teachers, and hire a bunch of fake teachers without background checks, career training, internships, or anything eh...? Just fast track a bunch of unemployed people and stick em' in the classroom...?
Yea that would do it for me...
I would either homeschool, or leave the state of Wis.
""Sorry, but teaching kids is not Rocket Science.""
Lot's of things aren't "rocket science", but still pay a fair wage and require a college education + certification, to do the job properly. Teachers are professionals and deserve to be treated as such.
Let me ask you guys...
What private school did you all go to ?
Clearly you are an intellectual bunch (not sarcasm), so which private school do you owe your intelligence to?
I find it ironic that the majority of people who rail against teachers and public schools on the internet are only able to do so because they learned how to read and write ....in a public school.
Were all of your teachers ***holes or something ?
...If you say so. lol.
You make a lot of assumptions Leon.
Your opinion is in the minority...not the majority. You've told me already how you feel about public schools anyway, so i'm not surprised by your comments the least bit.
I guess that would be your idea on pushing people to home school their children ?
Simply gut the public school fire all the real teachers, and hire a bunch of fake teachers without background checks, career training, internships, or anything eh...? Just fast track a bunch of unemployed people and stick em' in the classroom...?
Yea that would do it for me...
I would either homeschool, or leave the state of Wis.
""Sorry, but teaching kids is not Rocket Science.""
Lot's of things aren't "rocket science", but still pay a fair wage and require a college education + certification, to do the job properly. Teachers are professionals and deserve to be treated as such.
Let me ask you guys...
What private school did you all go to ?
Clearly you are an intellectual bunch (not sarcasm), so which private school do you owe your intelligence to?
I find it ironic that the majority of people who rail against teachers and public schools on the internet are only able to do so because they learned how to read and write ....in a public school.
Were all of your teachers ***holes or something ?
ASKER
Sorry, but teaching kids is not Rocket Science. And, yes these teachers will not be as good as the ones who will now be unemployed (and who btw, will not be eligible for unemployment), but that will be corrected quickly.
Maybe, maybe not. Some of the best teachers I've had came from other industries. Teaching was their second career.
Maybe, maybe not. Some of the best teachers I've had came from other industries. Teaching was their second career.
Wow.... how myopic and one-dimensional.
According to Walker (and his unrealistic/untrustworthy political spin) cutting collective bargaining will save 137 Million dollars.
But at the same time the laws he passed in January giving businesses a tax break (lowering taxes for corporations) will cost the state over 150 Million in the next two years.
The 137 million is highly optimistic, full of rhetoric and at best - a guess. The 150 million is simple mathematics
This debate in Wi has little to do with Unions, teachers or even the WI budget. This is all about breaking the back of your opponents financial backers. The Democratic party only has a handful of deep-pocket organizations that fund their elections - they are all unions. Demonize the unions, get some loyal followers to dismantle a few key strategic groups and then your opponent has virtually no financial backers.
According to Walker (and his unrealistic/untrustworthy political spin) cutting collective bargaining will save 137 Million dollars.
But at the same time the laws he passed in January giving businesses a tax break (lowering taxes for corporations) will cost the state over 150 Million in the next two years.
The 137 million is highly optimistic, full of rhetoric and at best - a guess. The 150 million is simple mathematics
This debate in Wi has little to do with Unions, teachers or even the WI budget. This is all about breaking the back of your opponents financial backers. The Democratic party only has a handful of deep-pocket organizations that fund their elections - they are all unions. Demonize the unions, get some loyal followers to dismantle a few key strategic groups and then your opponent has virtually no financial backers.
xuserx2000
I think you missed my point above about Reagan and the air traffic controllers. It makes no difference how difficult it would be to replace the teachers or how ill advised it would be to fire them, if they go on strike. The precedent has been set and there is a definite possibility that Walker would fire the whole lot of them.
And for the record, I oppose what Walker and the republicans are doing in Wisconsin and I look forward to watching the results of the recall efforts.
I think you missed my point above about Reagan and the air traffic controllers. It makes no difference how difficult it would be to replace the teachers or how ill advised it would be to fire them, if they go on strike. The precedent has been set and there is a definite possibility that Walker would fire the whole lot of them.
And for the record, I oppose what Walker and the republicans are doing in Wisconsin and I look forward to watching the results of the recall efforts.
New development:
Walker admits that ending collective bargaining has no fiscal gain for this year (so why was it in a special budget repair bill?).
Further, Walker is now going to introduce a bill similar to what's going on in MI. He wants to seize control of any city/town that he feels is in "financial crisis". Details on the bill are still forthcoming, so we don't know what the criteria will be for what is and is not a financial crisis.
What Walker is doing is necessary, certainly for the long-term financial health of the state.
Even uber-lefty moonbean gov of calif may even bow to reality and start reducing the ridiculously excessive pensions of govt workers.
Of course we should start with congress itself. The Dems insist that Soc Sec is so great, why don't they live with it? We should get rid of ALL pensions for ALL govt workers except military personnel. They can fund IRAS, 401Ks, etc., just like the rest of us.
Even uber-lefty moonbean gov of calif may even bow to reality and start reducing the ridiculously excessive pensions of govt workers.
Of course we should start with congress itself. The Dems insist that Soc Sec is so great, why don't they live with it? We should get rid of ALL pensions for ALL govt workers except military personnel. They can fund IRAS, 401Ks, etc., just like the rest of us.
>>ALL govt workers except military personnel.
*except* ?? typical right-wing thinking. Claim to have a solution to a critical problem impacting *everyone*, but then have a list of exceptions (who are your primary constituents.
Here's the latest: WI is in a fiscal crisis. We have to make cutback *everywhere* because we are in such dire straights. Oh, but we need to implement voter ID requirements which will cost the state an estimated 10 to 15 million dollars the first year and another 6 million every year there after.
Our "crisis" can't be that severe if the governor is suggesting we spend money on this frivolity.
*except* ?? typical right-wing thinking. Claim to have a solution to a critical problem impacting *everyone*, but then have a list of exceptions (who are your primary constituents.
Here's the latest: WI is in a fiscal crisis. We have to make cutback *everywhere* because we are in such dire straights. Oh, but we need to implement voter ID requirements which will cost the state an estimated 10 to 15 million dollars the first year and another 6 million every year there after.
Our "crisis" can't be that severe if the governor is suggesting we spend money on this frivolity.
typical right-wing thinking. Claim to have a solution to a critical problem impacting *everyone*, but then have a list of exceptions (who are your primary constituents.
Lets take a look at the exemption list for the insurance health plans shall we. NIMBY cuts across political and social spectrums.
Lets take a look at the exemption list for the insurance health plans shall we. NIMBY cuts across political and social spectrums.
ASKER
>>ALL govt workers except military personnel.
*except* ?? typical right-wing thinking.
Couple of points on that:
There are exceptions to every rule.
*except* ?? typical right-wing thinking.
Couple of points on that:
The Military (i.e. defense) is an enumerated power in the U.S. Constitution.
The ability to contribute to I.R.A. or similar is not really there on military pay.
Do not confuse the actual military troops with the GS and WG employees. The pension systems are two different animals.
The military has been working at raising the years and modifying the amount of pensions since the late 80's.
I don't know the actual numbers, but I'm guessing that the number of military veterans to military retirees is approximately 15 vets for 1 retiree.
The U.S. population is over 300 million, The number of veterans in the U.S. population is about 25M. The U.S. active duty is about 1.5M. That is less than 1% of the population.
There are exceptions to every rule.
...still no answer to which private schools you guys attended ??
So I guess I can assume you are all products of PUBLIC education ?
Irony is everywhere if you know where to look......
So I guess I can assume you are all products of PUBLIC education ?
Irony is everywhere if you know where to look......
..wait..is it irony or hypocrisy...hmmm.... {ponders*}
jimpen:
I said ONLY the military SHOULD have pensions. ALL *OTHER* govt workers should have NO pensions, but should have to have 401Ks, IRAs, etc., *most especially congress*.
Virtually every senator is a millionaire -- if not before office, then definitely after *one* term of senate perks -- so why shouldn't they pay for their own retirement?
The idea that you have to pay huge pensions just to get "good" govt workers is ridiculous. The job security is so ridiculously high that will bring in people anyway.
Btw, military personnel are not "my primary constituents". I just think that with the truly *low* pay they get for the type of work they do, a pension *is* warranted. But not for sleeping half the day at the post office, whose quasi-govt workers get absurdly large pensions.
All govts must reduce spending. We are truly approaching bankrupcty as we Dems try to keep their klepotcracy in full force. The govt unions back the Dems, who give bloated benefits to govt unions, who vote back in the Dems, who give more to the govt unions, etc.. A never-ending self-enrichment circle of greed. But we can't afford that scam any more -- actually we never could but it was ignored by the press before now. Now it's gotten so big it simply can't be ignored any longer.
I said ONLY the military SHOULD have pensions. ALL *OTHER* govt workers should have NO pensions, but should have to have 401Ks, IRAs, etc., *most especially congress*.
Virtually every senator is a millionaire -- if not before office, then definitely after *one* term of senate perks -- so why shouldn't they pay for their own retirement?
The idea that you have to pay huge pensions just to get "good" govt workers is ridiculous. The job security is so ridiculously high that will bring in people anyway.
Btw, military personnel are not "my primary constituents". I just think that with the truly *low* pay they get for the type of work they do, a pension *is* warranted. But not for sleeping half the day at the post office, whose quasi-govt workers get absurdly large pensions.
All govts must reduce spending. We are truly approaching bankrupcty as we Dems try to keep their klepotcracy in full force. The govt unions back the Dems, who give bloated benefits to govt unions, who vote back in the Dems, who give more to the govt unions, etc.. A never-ending self-enrichment circle of greed. But we can't afford that scam any more -- actually we never could but it was ignored by the press before now. Now it's gotten so big it simply can't be ignored any longer.
TYPO:
obv not "bankruptcy as we Dems" but "bankruptcy as *the* Dems"
obv not "bankruptcy as we Dems" but "bankruptcy as *the* Dems"
Why should only military get pensions ?
Unions are just people...who want a liveable wage.
Attempts to make unions seem "evil", are truly laughable.
""But we can't afford that scam any more"""
...SCAM ?? ...hahah...lol... it's not a scam just because you've deemed it so.
A union negotiates with the government, or a private company. I repeat...they NEGOTIATE terms of labor contracts.
When two parties NEGOTIATE, that means the two parties agree on terms. That's not a scam, that's an amicable settlement to a dispute.
Conservatives like to make it seem as if uions have all the power and they get whatever they want, which couldn't be further from the truth. As you saw in Wis., irrespective of Walker's legislation...the unions had already agreed to a significant paycut.
It was already part of the NEGOTIATION...before Walkers' bill was introduced to take away the unions power to negotiate anything.
Attempts to make unions seem "evil", are truly laughable.
""But we can't afford that scam any more"""
...SCAM ?? ...hahah...lol... it's not a scam just because you've deemed it so.
A union negotiates with the government, or a private company. I repeat...they NEGOTIATE terms of labor contracts.
When two parties NEGOTIATE, that means the two parties agree on terms. That's not a scam, that's an amicable settlement to a dispute.
Conservatives like to make it seem as if uions have all the power and they get whatever they want, which couldn't be further from the truth. As you saw in Wis., irrespective of Walker's legislation...the unions had already agreed to a significant paycut.
It was already part of the NEGOTIATION...before Walkers' bill was introduced to take away the unions power to negotiate anything.
Why should military be the *only* ones who get pensions? I submit that the average Firefighter or Policeman has a far more dangerous job then the average military personnel (active combat not withstanding).
If you want to give military personnel special "hazzard pay" while serving in active combat - that's one thing. But what about the MP's standing around at Quantico? Do you really think they are *more* deserving of a pension than a firefighter or policeman (or teacher, or garbage man).
Firefighters and policemen have no where near as dangerous a job as military personnel. About 1 in four Veterans of the Iraq war required some type of Medical or Mental health treatment upon their return home as a result of their combat experience. Yes they are more deserving of a pension you soft, spoiled unappreciative, uninformed ....
""Firefighters and policemen have no where near as dangerous a job as military personnel"""
...uh...that depends on where you live buddy.
...uh...that depends on where you live buddy.
ASKER
I submit that the average Firefighter or Policeman has a far more dangerous job then the average military personnel (active combat not withstanding).
That may or may not be true depending on location in the U.S.
Do you really think they are *more* deserving of a pension than a firefighter or policeman (or teacher, or garbage man).
And where in the U.S. are any of those professions actively the responsibility of the federal government and not local? (I know, D.C. -- but that is because it is a separate entity.) And where should it even be the responsibility of the local government to pick up the garbage?
So I guess I can assume you are all products of PUBLIC education?
Yes. And I have been succeeding despite everything my public education got wrong.
That may or may not be true depending on location in the U.S.
Do you really think they are *more* deserving of a pension than a firefighter or policeman (or teacher, or garbage man).
And where in the U.S. are any of those professions actively the responsibility of the federal government and not local? (I know, D.C. -- but that is because it is a separate entity.) And where should it even be the responsibility of the local government to pick up the garbage?
So I guess I can assume you are all products of PUBLIC education?
Yes. And I have been succeeding despite everything my public education got wrong.
...also depends on what your job in the military is.
""Yes. And I have been succeeding despite everything my public education got wrong."""
haha..SERIOUSLY ???
..... yes you are self made i'm sure. Despite the horrible public education system you managed to teach yourself how to read/write, mathematics, history, geography, science...etc etc.
I'm sure you have an extensive collection of books on tape.
haha..SERIOUSLY ???
..... yes you are self made i'm sure. Despite the horrible public education system you managed to teach yourself how to read/write, mathematics, history, geography, science...etc etc.
I'm sure you have an extensive collection of books on tape.
btw- What exactly did they "get wrong" ???
When the two parties are corrupt, the "negotiation" itself is just a scam. It's not a valid negotiation when the govt side is giving away other peoples' money. It's a kickback scam, just like the mafia runs.
For example, locally they passed a "pension" plan that govt "workers" could retire after *12* years, with *no* age restrictions. So you could start working at 18 and begin collecting a pension at age 30, for the rest of your life. That kind of fraud would never be tolerated in a non-govt situation.
Btw, the average firefighter spends orders of magnitude more time sleeping *at "work"* than fighting fires.
The military deserves a pension because of the extremely low pay and difficult conditions. But if you want to pull their pension too, no problem, just dramatically increase their pay correspondingly.
Excellent point jimpen. The feds should have nothing to do with other pensions. In particular, they should not dictate when people can start drawing retirement pay. What is more core to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than deciding when *you* want to retire?
Instead the govt attempts to dictate when you can retire -- deliberately trying to make sure a significant percentage of the men involved die before collecting a cent.
For example, locally they passed a "pension" plan that govt "workers" could retire after *12* years, with *no* age restrictions. So you could start working at 18 and begin collecting a pension at age 30, for the rest of your life. That kind of fraud would never be tolerated in a non-govt situation.
Btw, the average firefighter spends orders of magnitude more time sleeping *at "work"* than fighting fires.
The military deserves a pension because of the extremely low pay and difficult conditions. But if you want to pull their pension too, no problem, just dramatically increase their pay correspondingly.
Excellent point jimpen. The feds should have nothing to do with other pensions. In particular, they should not dictate when people can start drawing retirement pay. What is more core to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than deciding when *you* want to retire?
Instead the govt attempts to dictate when you can retire -- deliberately trying to make sure a significant percentage of the men involved die before collecting a cent.
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Oh please....
First of all... less than 1% of all military personnel actually see any kind of combat. There are lots of jobs in the military that are nowhere near the battlefield.
What I see here is an attempt to put military service above all other kinds of service to this country, in yet another attempt to justify taking away retirement and benefits for everyone else.
It's ridiculous.....
Stop tyring to pull a "guilt trip",... I have two immediate family members in the army, in Afghanistan, right now. Their interest in the American dream ....which is a mediocre retirement.... is the same as any other American.
Sorry, but I don't think you should have to be shot at to qualify for a pension....that's idiotic.
First of all... less than 1% of all military personnel actually see any kind of combat. There are lots of jobs in the military that are nowhere near the battlefield.
What I see here is an attempt to put military service above all other kinds of service to this country, in yet another attempt to justify taking away retirement and benefits for everyone else.
It's ridiculous.....
Stop tyring to pull a "guilt trip",... I have two immediate family members in the army, in Afghanistan, right now. Their interest in the American dream ....which is a mediocre retirement.... is the same as any other American.
Sorry, but I don't think you should have to be shot at to qualify for a pension....that's idiotic.
Walker and the Republicans clearly exceeded their mandate (as indicated by the polls), and they will pay for their error. This is apparently not what the citizens of Wisconsin thought they were voting for.
The Wisconsin Democrats did what they could to prevent a bad bill. What they did was much like what Republicans have done in the US Senate to block the will of the majority, although they have done it too often and without constructive intent.
Your premise that we need smaller government is incorrect. We had too little oversight of Wall Street and look what that produced. Our problem is not too much spending. It is too little income caused by bad trade policies that have led to the export of too many American jobs. Even Alan Keyes recognized that.
Cutting spending and crushing workers is exactly the wrong thing to be doing. The Republicans and the Tea Party will send us into a death spiral if they have their way. When Americans lose their jobs and remain unemployed or are forced to take jobs at much lower wages, or when union bashing and importing cheap labor keeps wages down, many others will eventually suffer from the declining economy. Those who are unemployed or under-employed will buy fewer products (such as cars) and fewer services; they will defer whatever expenses they can. The entire economy suffers when too many people lose their jobs.
It is true that we should cut back on unnecessary expenses, such as foreign wars and tax cuts for the over-compensated, but we should not be eliminating teachers, border patrol officers, air traffic controllers, Wall Street and banking regulators, food inspectors, and the like. We need to put America back to work and stop exporting our prosperity while importing poverty.