Looking for a site/service similar to ShutterFly
I'm looking for pointers to a site/service similar to ShutterFly.com, but one that does not steal your rights to your photographic works.
Specifically, the ToS for ShutterFly says that, for anything uploaded to their site, you (meaning the person using ShutterFly):
I don't mind paying ShutterFly for their services. What I object to is them granting themselves such a license to my work. Basically, the terms of that license destroy any commercial value my photographic works may have.
I'm looking for pointers to other websites/services that are similar to ShutterFly, but which don't steal my pictures for themselves when I'm paying them to print them for me.
Specifically, the ToS for ShutterFly says that, for anything uploaded to their site, you (meaning the person using ShutterFly):
....hereby grant us and our designees a worldwide, non-exclusive, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers), assignable, royalty-free, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable right to use, reproduce, distribute (through multiple tiers), create derivative works of, and publicly display and perform (publicly or otherwise) [the pictures you upload]....
I don't mind paying ShutterFly for their services. What I object to is them granting themselves such a license to my work. Basically, the terms of that license destroy any commercial value my photographic works may have.
I'm looking for pointers to other websites/services that are similar to ShutterFly, but which don't steal my pictures for themselves when I'm paying them to print them for me.
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@Merete: The text I quoted is on there. Go to http://www.shutterfly.com/
Again, I have no issue with paying ShutterFly to take my photos and micro-publish a book of them for me.
What I do have an issue with is them granting themselves such a broad license... and one that is worldwide [...] perpetual, irrevocable
If I've paid them for their services, they have no business having a license to my works.
3. Your Submissions
In the event that you post or upload to the Service, or otherwise submit to or through Shutterfly as part of your use of the Service, any materials including, without limitation, photographs and other images, text, graphics, videos, visuals, sounds, data, files, links and other materials (collectively, "Submissions"), you will retain ownership of such Submissions, and you hereby grant us and our designees a worldwide, non-exclusive, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers), assignable, royalty-free, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable right to use, reproduce, distribute (through multiple tiers), create derivative works of, and publicly display and perform (publicly or otherwise) such Submissions, solely in connection with the Service (including without limitation for purposes of promoting the Service). Please note that, while you retain ownership of your Submissions, any template or layout in which you arrange or organize such Submissions through tools and features made available through Shutterfly are not proprietary to you, and can be used by Shutterfly and others for any purposes. You acknowledge and agree that you have no rights in any such template and/or layout, and such template or layout shall be the sole and exclusive property of Shutterfly.
In the event that you post or upload to the Service, or otherwise submit to or through Shutterfly as part of your use of the Service, any materials including, without limitation, photographs and other images, text, graphics, videos, visuals, sounds, data, files, links and other materials (collectively, "Submissions"), you will retain ownership of such Submissions, and you hereby grant us and our designees a worldwide, non-exclusive, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers), assignable, royalty-free, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable right to use, reproduce, distribute (through multiple tiers), create derivative works of, and publicly display and perform (publicly or otherwise) such Submissions, solely in connection with the Service (including without limitation for purposes of promoting the Service). Please note that, while you retain ownership of your Submissions, any template or layout in which you arrange or organize such Submissions through tools and features made available through Shutterfly are not proprietary to you, and can be used by Shutterfly and others for any purposes. You acknowledge and agree that you have no rights in any such template and/or layout, and such template or layout shall be the sole and exclusive property of Shutterfly.
Again, I have no issue with paying ShutterFly to take my photos and micro-publish a book of them for me.
What I do have an issue with is them granting themselves such a broad license... and one that is worldwide [...] perpetual, irrevocable
If I've paid them for their services, they have no business having a license to my works.
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@lherrou: Thanks for the links. I'm checking them out now. Both look more like what I want than ShutterFly - I'm going to read their Ts&Cs/ToS/etc thoroughly to be sure.
I think I'll leave the Question open a bit longer to see if anyone else has some additional sites.
I think I'll leave the Question open a bit longer to see if anyone else has some additional sites.
I have a lot of pro friends who use mpix. They are connected to Miller's which is a full pro lab. I've used mpix for prints up to poster size, and always been very happy with the results, although I also use other labs (which don't also offer some of the sharing features of mpix).
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@PsiCop: I agree with your assessment that the Shutterfly TOS are onerous. I look at this issue on two levels. The first is the fact that our system of laws is generally terrestrial and antiquated when it comes to copyright and the internet. If you publish something online you have released it into the wild, and your ability to enforce your copyright against hackers and thieves is nearly zero. In the case of Shutterfly you retain "ownership" (whatever that is) but you immunize Shutterfly. So they are free to sell copies of your images without compensation to you. That in-contract definition of their rights more or less nullifies the value of the "ownership" that you retain.
The other level is the practical usability of images on the internet. If you don't want your high-quality images stolen, don't put high-quality images on a public site. Instead you might consider displaying only highly-compressed JPG versions, or smaller copies of the images.
And if you want to have your own web site with your own images, hire a professional developer with some skills in Adobe Flash. You can have a beautiful site running in a week or two. Perhaps you can put a couple of pictures on Shutterfly with a link to your own site.
So here is my executive summary. If you don't want it copied and redistributed, don't put it on the internet. Are you listening, Congressman Wiener? Instead, use deliberately degraded copies for your internet versions. HTH, ~Ray
The other level is the practical usability of images on the internet. If you don't want your high-quality images stolen, don't put high-quality images on a public site. Instead you might consider displaying only highly-compressed JPG versions, or smaller copies of the images.
And if you want to have your own web site with your own images, hire a professional developer with some skills in Adobe Flash. You can have a beautiful site running in a week or two. Perhaps you can put a couple of pictures on Shutterfly with a link to your own site.
So here is my executive summary. If you don't want it copied and redistributed, don't put it on the internet. Are you listening, Congressman Wiener? Instead, use deliberately degraded copies for your internet versions. HTH, ~Ray
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@Ray_Paseur: I don't disagree - but my interest in ShutterFly is to get book-version and large prints of my works. I have no interest in putting it up on a "public site" - if anything, I would want my transaction with ShutterFly to be completely private.
The trouble is, their ToS are the same (as far as I can tell) regardless of the relationship. And their license doesn't terminate when the materials are deleted. They have no business retaining a license at that point.
The trouble is, their ToS are the same (as far as I can tell) regardless of the relationship. And their license doesn't terminate when the materials are deleted. They have no business retaining a license at that point.
They have no business retaining a license at that point. So complain to them? They built the site, they run the site and they get to set their own terms of service. You get to take it or leave it. That is the standard business relationship. No point arguing about it; it's not going to change.
My recommendation is to build your own replica of the Shutterfly service. You might want to consider using a high-quality print service. I have had good experiences with National Geographic (they really do a good job on large prints) and maybe you could collaborate with them to resell their services under your own brand. The books created with Apple's online app are very nice. I do not know what their T&C setup might be, but lots of people are glad to use them for photo books.
My recommendation is to build your own replica of the Shutterfly service. You might want to consider using a high-quality print service. I have had good experiences with National Geographic (they really do a good job on large prints) and maybe you could collaborate with them to resell their services under your own brand. The books created with Apple's online app are very nice. I do not know what their T&C setup might be, but lots of people are glad to use them for photo books.
If you only want lab services, mpix and their parent company (http://www.millerslab.com/) are good. I, too, hadn't realized that you were only looking for lab services, or I would have given you some other options:
Bay Photo: http://www.bayphoto.com/ (one of the better labs in the country)
White House Custom Color (http://www.whcc.com)
Bay Photo: http://www.bayphoto.com/ (one of the better labs in the country)
White House Custom Color (http://www.whcc.com)
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@Ray_Paseur: Yes, the discussion has diverged somewhat from my original Question. My initial intent was not to get down in the weeds concerning my precise objections to ShutterFly's ToS. I was mainly looking for alternatives.
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@BillDL: Yeah, I came to pretty much the same conclusion regarding mpix/Miller.
Facebook is an abomination. 'nuff said.
Facebook is an abomination. 'nuff said.
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Thanks to all who responded. I think I have enough info now.
Thank you PsiCop.
I read the Tos or their Terms of Use. And don't find anything that resembles what your saying.
These Privacy Policy and Terms of Use are pretty universal all over the world and all these sites.
There are laws.
I believe in the rule of thumb, anything posted on a web page can be copied in some form or another.
So if you dont want it stolen dont put it there. Use the paper trails.
From my reading,
I dont think they give away your stuff or sell it on to commercial ventures anywhere without your prior consent. But only other members.
And you give that consent when you read the agreement Terms of USE and signed up.
They also state that it's a public webpage and is used by other 3rd parties exposing your stuff to the public.
They do offer software to protect your stuff
extract,
(12) Access By Minors
We hereby notify you that parental control protections (such as computer hardware, software or filtering services) are commercially available that may assist you in limiting access to material
Copyright Issues
(6)Shutterfly is committed to protecting copyrights and expects users of the Service to do the same. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 (the "DMCA") provides recourse for copyright owners who believe that material appearing on the Internet infringes their rights under U.S. copyright law. If you believe in good faith that any material used or displayed on or through the Service infringes your copyright, you (or your agent) may send us a notice requesting that the material be removed, or access to it blocked.
http://www.shutterfly.com/help/terms.jsp
Extract
Privacy Policy
Dedicated to your privacy
Shutterfly, Inc. ("Shutterfly," "we," "us") respects your privacy, including the privacy of your information and your pictures. This Privacy Policy explains what information we collect through our website at www.shutterfly.com (the "Site") and our other services, and how we use this information to provide outstanding service to you.
http://www.shutterfly.com/help/privacy.jsp
Can you point to where they do show that >>hereby grant us and our designees a worldwide, non-exclusive, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers), assignable, royalty-free, etc etc
they say>
Third Party Communications.
Shutterfly also may share Personal Information with third parties for such third parties' direct marketing purposes.
Such third parties to whom we transfer Personal Information for direct marketing purposes will handle, store, retain, use, share and access Personal Information in accordance with their own privacy policies.
It is your responsibility to carefully review such terms and conditions and privacy policies, and Shutterfly disclaims any and all liability relating thereto.
If you would prefer that we do not share your Personal Information with such third parties for their direct marketing purposes, you may submit an opt-out request as described in Section 6 ("Opt-Out") below.