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asked on

Find: b(x) and a(x)...

having:

x + r = r/cos(b) + h*tan(b)
a = (r *tan(b) + h/cos(b) - h)/r - b

r and h are constants.

Find: b(x) and a(x)

you may find the link below helpful:

https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/27242530/have-x-b-to-find-b-x.html

Thank you.

Hopefully pkwan will see this and do what he did in your previous questions.

Let's step away from the general case and ask
"What is happening when the values are very small?"
We have our two equations.
a = (r *tan(b) + h/cos(b) - h)/r - b
x = h*tan(b) + r/cos(b) - r
When "b" is very small, we can use these approximations
tan(b) is approximately equal to "b"
cos(b) is approximately equal to 1
So when b is very small we have
a = 0
x = h*b
So when b is very small and h = 60 (notice r is not a factor)
x = 60*b
We can confirm this with some Java.

import java.text.DecimalFormat;
public class SmallValues {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("000.000");
      double h = 60;
      double r = 10;
      double a = 0;
      double x = 0;
      double x2 = 0;
      for(double b = 0; b < 0.1; b += 0.005){
          a = (r * Math.tan(b) + h/Math.cos(b) - h)/r - b;
          x = h*Math.tan(b) + r/Math.cos(b) -r;
          System.out.println("b = " + df.format(b) + " a = " + df.format(a) + " x = " + df.format(x));
      }
  }
}

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Output results:
b = 000.000 a = 000.000 x = 000.000
b = 000.005 a = 000.000 x = 000.300
b = 000.010 a = 000.000 x = 000.601
b = 000.015 a = 000.001 x = 000.901
b = 000.020 a = 000.001 x = 001.202
b = 000.025 a = 000.002 x = 001.503
b = 000.030 a = 000.003 x = 001.805
b = 000.035 a = 000.004 x = 002.107
b = 000.040 a = 000.005 x = 002.409
b = 000.045 a = 000.006 x = 002.712
b = 000.050 a = 000.008 x = 003.015
b = 000.055 a = 000.009 x = 003.318
b = 000.060 a = 000.011 x = 003.622
b = 000.065 a = 000.013 x = 003.927
b = 000.070 a = 000.015 x = 004.231
b = 000.075 a = 000.017 x = 004.537
b = 000.080 a = 000.019 x = 004.842
b = 000.085 a = 000.022 x = 005.149
b = 000.090 a = 000.025 x = 005.455
b = 000.095 a = 000.027 x = 005.763
This would suggest that initially we are unwrapping the rope from the drum rather than unwinding(which would cause turning of the drum).

ASKER

re:> This would suggest that initially we

It show how well your equations work.

Now, to complete the work do we need to have a(x) and b(x) or for now you can include x(b) and a(b) by incrementing b to get a and x to complete the animation?

Thanks,

Mike

ASKER CERTIFIED SOLUTION

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Correction:

a = (r *tan(b) + h/cos(b) - h)/r - b
= T + h/rC - h/r - b
= (x+r)/h - r/hC + h/rC - h/r - b
= (x+r)/h - h/r - ArcCos( [r(x+r) + h sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2]) - (r^2 - h^2)/(hr[r(x+r) + h sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2])

and

a = (r *tan(b) + h/cos(b) - h)/r - b
= T + h/rC - h/r - b
= (x+r)/h - r/hC + h/rC - h/r - b
= (x+r)/h - h/r - ArcCos( [r(x+r) - h sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2]) - (r^2 - h^2)/(hr [r(x+r) - h sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2])

pkwan, question spots on last line.
... - h sqrt((x+r) ...
should that be
- h * sqrt((x+r)
?
h^2)/(hr [r(x+r) - h sq
should that be
h^2)/(h*r [r(x+r) - h sq
?

:rrz@871311, you are correct.

ASKER

Hi pkwan,

I am not able to get => T = (x+r)/h - r/hC ..... (eq. 6)
I traced your work filling in the gaps. Could you please show me how we get from:

=> [(x+r)^2 + h^2]C^2 - 2r(x+r) C + (r^2 - h^2) = 0

to

=> T = (x+r)/h - r/hC ..... (eq. 6)
=============

I have started from:
x + r = r/cos(b) + h*tan(b) .... (eq. 1)

x + r = r/C + h*T
multipily by C

C(x + r = r/C + h*T)

Cx+Cr = r + hS

=> C(x+r) - r = hS

(C(x+r) - r)^2 = (hS)^2

(x+r)^2 C^2 - 2r(x+r) C + r^2 = h^2(S^2)

1=S^+C^2 S^2=1-C^2

=> (x+r)^2 C^2 - 2r(x+r) C + r^2 = h^2(1-C^2)

(x+r)^2 C^2 - 2r(x+r) C + r^2 = h^2 - h^2 C^2

(x+r)^2 C^2 + h^2 C^2 - 2r(x+r) C + r^2 + h^2 =0

[(x+r)^2 + h^2] C^2 - 2r(x+r) C + r^2 + h^2 =0

=> [(x+r)^2 + h^2]C^2 - 2r(x+r) C + (r^2 - h^2) = 0

[(x+r)^2C^2- 2r(x+r) C + r^2]= h^2-h^2C^2

[(x+r)C - r]^2 = h^2(1-C^2)

(x+r)C - r = h sqrt(1-C^2)

(x+r) = r/C + h sqrt(1-C^2)/C <--- please show me how I can get from here to next line,

x + r = r/C + h*T
=> T = (x+r)/h - r/hC ..... (eq. 6)

Solving for C,

I tried to convert pkwan's last line to java. It doesn't work like it should work. Here is my java code line.

a = (x+10)/60 - 60/10 -  Math.acos( (10*(x+10) - 60 * Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x+10,2) + Math.pow(60,2) - Math.pow(10,2)))/(Math.pow(x+10,2) + Math.pow(60,2)))  - (Math.pow(10,2) - Math.pow(60,2))/(60*10 *(10*(x+10) - 60 * Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x+10,2) + Math.pow(60,2) - Math.pow(10,2)))/(Math.pow(x+10,2) + Math.pow(60,2)));

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I don't know if I made a mistake in the conversion or not.

I used values r = 10 and h = 60

Actually, derivation of eq.1 and derivation of eq.6 is independent (both are from the x + r = r/cos(b) + h*tan(b) )

x + r = r/cos(b) + h*tan(b)
=> x + r = r/C + h*T
=> h * T = (x+r) - r/C
=> T = (x+r)/h - r/(h*C)

ASKER

Thank you pkwan. I envy your math ability. b(x) checks out but I have to go over it again because when I ran it for c1 and c2 to see which to accept and which to reject, I see that neither is acceptable...

rrz@871311,

Using following code I get cos(b) outside its acceptable range of -1 to 1:

arc b arc b1 x
24.03 24.03 00.00
25.28 25.28 00.25

320.83 320.83 59.25
322.08 322.08 59.50
323.33 323.33 59.75
^---------^---------------these values should be between -1 and 1

So I will check the equation again. I wonder using x(b) two times as eq.1 and again eq.6 maybe responsible for this error.

I will check the code again to see it is the source of error.

Thanks,

Mike

import java.text.DecimalFormat;
public class Data1 {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("00.00");
      double h = 30;
      double r = 5;
      double a = 0;
      double b = 0;
      double b1 = 0; 
      System.out.println("arc b\t arc b1    x");
      for(double x = 0; x < 60; x +=0.25){
//          b = Math.acos((r*(x+r)+h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow((x+r),2)+Math.pow(h,2)-Math.pow(r,2))/
//                                        (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2))));
//          b1 = Math.acos((r*(x+r)-h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow((x+r),2)+Math.pow(h,2)-Math.pow(r,2))/
//                                        (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2))));
          
          b = (r*(x+r)-h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow((x+r),2)+Math.pow(h,2)-Math.pow(r,2))/
                            (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2)));
          b1 = (r*(x+r)-h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow((x+r),2)+Math.pow(h,2)-Math.pow(r,2))/
                                        (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2)));
//        System.out.println(" " + df.format(b1*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(b*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(x));
          System.out.println(" " + df.format(b1) + "  " + df.format(b) + "  " + df.format(x));
      }
  }
}

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ASKER

FYI, The way this design works, 60 degrees > b<=0 degrees

or 0.5>ArcCos(b)<=0

ASKER

corrction...

FYI, The way this design works, 60 degrees > b>=0 degrees

or 0.5>ArcCos(b)>=0

ASKER

cos(b) b cos(b1) x
24.03 24.03 00.00
25.28 25.28 00.25
26.53 26.53 00.50
27.78 27.78 00.75
29.03 29.03 01.00
30.28 30.28 01.25
^---------^---------------these values should be between -1 and 1

ASKER

Good news. the issue with angle b is resolved.

a deg. b deg. x
-848.62 00.00 00.00
-848.73 06.02 01.00
-848.93 08.59 02.00
-849.23 10.62 03.00
-849.63 12.37 04.00
-850.13 13.94 05.00
^--- I need to debug this part.

import java.text.DecimalFormat;
public class Data1 {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("00.00");
      double h = 60;
      double r = 10;
      double a = 0;
      double b = 0;
      double b1 = 0; 
      System.out.println("a deg.\t  b deg.  x");
      for(double x = 0; x <= 60; x +=1.0){

          b1 = Math.acos((r*(x+r)+h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x,2)+Math.pow(h,2)-2*x*r))/
                     (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2)));
          
          a = (x+r)/h - h/r -  Math.acos( (r*(x+r) - h * Math.sqrt(Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2) 
                  - Math.pow(r,2)))/(Math.pow(x+r,2) + Math.pow(h,2)))  - (Math.pow(r,2) - 
                  Math.pow(h,2))/(h*r *(r*(x+r) - h * Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x+r,2) + Math.pow(h,2) - 
                  Math.pow(r,2)))/(Math.pow(x+r,2) + Math.pow(h,2)));

        System.out.println(" " + df.format(a*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(b1*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(x));

      }
  }
}

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I am working on this. I will post soon.

x = htan(b) + r/cos(b) - r
x/h = tan(b) + (r/h)/cos(b) - r/h
let j = x/h
k = r/h
C = cos(b)
Use pkwan's method:
sqrt(1 - C^2)/C = tan(b) //trig identity
j+k = sqrt(1 - C^2)/C + (r/h)/C
C(j+k) - k = sqrt(1 - C^2)
(C(j+k) - k)^2 = 1 - C^2
C^2(j+k) + k^2 - 2Ck(j+k) = 1 - C^2
0 = ((j+k)^2 + 1)C^2 - 2k(j+k)C + k^2 - 1
Use quadratic formula:
C = (2k(j+k) + sqrt((2k(j+k))^2 - 4((j+k)^2 + 1)(k^2 - 1)))/2((j+k)^2 + 1)
Rewrite for java:
C = (2*k*(j+k) + Math.sqrt(Math.pow(2*k*(j+k),2) - 4*(Math.pow(j+k,2) + 1)*(k*k - 1)))/2*(Math.pow(j+k,2) + 1)

Here is java code.

import java.text.DecimalFormat;
public class Ax {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("00.000");
      double h = 60; //height of drum from base line
      double r = 10; //drum radius
      double k = r/h;
      double j = 0;
      double a = 0;
      double C = 0; // equals cos(b) 
      for(double x = 0; x <= 1000; x += 50){
          j = x/h;
          C = (2*k*(j+k) + Math.sqrt(Math.pow(2*k*(j+k),2) - 4*(Math.pow(j+k,2) + 1)*(k*k - 1)))/(2*(Math.pow(j+k,2) + 1));
          a = (r * Math.tan(Math.acos(C)) + h/C - h)/r - Math.acos(C);
          System.out.println(" x = " + df.format(x) + " a = " + df.format(a) + " b = " + df.format(Math.acos(C)));
      }
  }
}

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The output:
x = 00.000 a = 00.000 b = 00.000
x = 50.000 a = 01.759 b = 00.667
x = 100.000 a = 05.498 b = 00.992
x = 150.000 a = 09.905 b = 01.153
x = 200.000 a = 14.571 b = 01.247
x = 250.000 a = 19.358 b = 01.307
x = 300.000 a = 24.212 b = 01.348
x = 350.000 a = 29.105 b = 01.378
x = 400.000 a = 34.023 b = 01.401
x = 450.000 a = 38.959 b = 01.420
x = 500.000 a = 43.908 b = 01.434
x = 550.000 a = 48.865 b = 01.446
x = 600.000 a = 53.830 b = 01.456
x = 650.000 a = 58.800 b = 01.465
x = 700.000 a = 63.774 b = 01.472
x = 750.000 a = 68.751 b = 01.479
x = 800.000 a = 73.731 b = 01.485
x = 850.000 a = 78.714 b = 01.490
x = 900.000 a = 83.698 b = 01.494
x = 950.000 a = 88.684 b = 01.498
x = 1000.000 a = 93.672 b = 01.502

Please check my work. I tried to plug it into
http://www.wolframalpha.com/
but it didn't work. Maybe phoffric knows how to get the plot from that site. We could use java to create graph, if you want to have it.
I will be back online in 6 hours.

ASKER

Here is the link in Java and JavaScript sections for the applet or desktop version:

https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/27245193/Animation-help-3.html

Thank you,

Mike

Did you check my code ?

ASKER

re:> Did you check my code ?

I did go through it. It is compact and less to write. But, I got different results for the b angles produced compared to pkwan's angle b(x) equation.

As you know, in the beginning, I had some problem with his equations also but after I traced my work again, the outcome seemed very good and acceptable.

I will review your equation again also to make sure I am getting the same result as his (or check his equation again to make sure there is consistency between two solutions).

Meanwhile, until I recheck your formula again, I though you may want to put your JApplet or a desktop version of it together while I am checking the equations here.

Replacing the equations shouldn't be too hard. Meanwhile, if you have any problem with your equations, you may want to consider using the one below (I still need to check a(x). Angle be looks good though. Next I will check pkwan's a(x) to make sure we have one set of reasonable equations. Then I will do your version to cross check pkwan's equations.

Regards,

Thank you

import java.text.DecimalFormat;
public class Data1 {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("00.00");
      double h = 60;
      double r = 10;
      double a = 0;
      double b = 0;
      double b1 = 0; 
      System.out.println("a deg.\t  b deg.  x");
      for(double x = 0; x <= 60; x +=1.0){

          b1 = Math.acos((r*(x+r)+h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x,2)+Math.pow(h,2)-2*x*r))/
                     (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2)));
          
          a = (x+r)/h - h/r -  Math.acos( (r*(x+r) - h * Math.sqrt(Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2) 
                  - Math.pow(r,2)))/(Math.pow(x+r,2) + Math.pow(h,2)))  - (Math.pow(r,2) - 
                  Math.pow(h,2))/(h*r *(r*(x+r) - h * Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x+r,2) + Math.pow(h,2) - 
                  Math.pow(r,2)))/(Math.pow(x+r,2) + Math.pow(h,2)));

        System.out.println(" " + df.format(a*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(b1*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(x));

      }
  }

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Did you run the code you just posted ? The output is crap. Are you learning anything here ?

ASKER

pkwan,

C = [2r(x+r) + sqrt(4r^2(x+r)^2 - 4[(x+r)^2 + h^2](r^2 - h^2))]/2[(x+r)^2 + h^2]
= [r(x+r) + h sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2] ... (eq. 2)

Isolating sqrt() portion from your eq. 2 above:

sqrt(4r^2(x+r)^2 - 4[(x+r)^2 + h^2](r^2 - h^2))]

2sqrt(r^2(x+r)^2 - [(x+r)^2 + h^2](r^2 - h^2))]

2sqrt(r^2(x^2+r^2+2xr) - [(x^2+r^2+2xr) + h^2](r^2 - h^2))])

2sqrt[(r^2x^2+r^4+2xr^3) - (x^2+r^2+2xr + h^2)(r^2 - h^2)]

2sqrt[(r^2x^2+r^4+2xr^3) - (x^2r^2+x^2h^2 + r^4-r^2h^2 + 2xr^3-2xrh^2 + h^2r^2-h^4)]

2sqrt[r^2x^2+r^4+2xr^3 - x^2r^2+x^2h^2 - r^4+r^2h^2 - 2xr^3+2xrh^2 - h^2r^2+h^4]

2sqrt[(r^2x^2-r^2r^2) + (r^4-r^4) + (2xr^3-2xr^3) + (x^2h^2+2xrh^2) + (x^2h^2 - h^2r^2 + h^4)]

2sqrt(x^2h^2 - h^2r^2 + h^4)

2sqrt(x^2h^2 - h^2r^2 + h^4)

2h*sqrt(x^2 - r^2 + h^2) <-- this is what I get unless you could spot an error to this point.

---------------now

b = ArcCos( [r(x+r) + h sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2]) ... (eq. 4)

Isolating and expanding sqrt() portion of (eq. 4), we get:

sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2) => sqrt(x^2+r^2+2xr+h^2-r^2)

or sqrt(x^2+2xr+h^2)

so sqrt(x^2+2xr+h^2) is not the same as sqrt(x^2 - r^2 + h^2)

so, your submission in eq. 4 should have been:

b = ArcCos( [r(x+r) + h sqrt(x^2 - r^2 + h^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2])

not:

b = ArcCos( [r(x+r) + h sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2])

After this change, I was able to limit cos(b) = (+/-)1

ASKER

re:> Did you run the code you just posted ?

The output for b angel looks okay after above correction:

changing:

b = ArcCos( [r(x+r) + h sqrt((x+r)^2+h^2-r^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2])

to

b = ArcCos( [r(x+r) + h sqrt(x^2 - r^2 + h^2)]/[(x+r)^2 + h^2])

Now, I will follow up with a angle.

Please note the sample output below:

a deg. b deg. x
-848.62 00.00 00.00
-848.73 06.02 01.00
-848.93 08.59 02.00
-849.23 10.62 03.00
-849.63 12.37 04.00
-850.13 13.94 05.00
^--- I need to debug this part.

b is in degrees for x=0, 1, 2, etc.

I need to work on a angel now.

Mike

Hi,

2sqrt[(r^2x^2+r^4+2xr^3) - (x^2r^2 + x^2h^2 + r^4-r^2h^2 + 2xr^3-2xrh^2 + h^2r^2-h^4)] <- This line is incorrect (should be x^2r^2 - x^2h^2, but does not matter, the next line is correct though.

The incorrect derivation is this line:

2sqrt[(r^2x^2-r^2r^2) + (r^4-r^4) + (2xr^3-2xr^3) + (x^2h^2+2xrh^2) + (x^2h^2 - h^2r^2 + h^4)]

=> 2sqrt(x^2h^2 - h^2r^2 + h^4)

You missed this term: (x^2h^2+2xrh^2)

>a deg. b deg. x
> -848.62 00.00 00.00
That doesn't make any sense. "a" has to be zero at the start.

We have developed two separate methods in our discussion.
In the first method we used these two equations
x = r/cos(b) + h*tan(b) - r
a = (r *tan(b) + h/cos(b) - h)/r - b
by incrementing "b" in each equation to calculate "x" and "a"
In the second method we solved for "b" as a function of "x" ( thanks to the method suggested by pkwan) and plugged it to the second equation. Thus we can now increment "x" and calculate "a" directly.
So you should compare the results of these two methods.

My equations are correct.

ASKER

re:> That doesn't make any sense. "a" has to be zero at the start.

I have mention number couple of times that a is being looked at. Angel a is not QC'ed. You are right, it should be zero.

Another thing I have noticed is the following I want to bring to your attention:

a=(1/r)*(h*Math.tan(b)+(r/Math.cos(b)))-b <-- our starting equation.

I have a question you may be able to help me with. If we plug b=0, a needs to be zero also:

a=(1/r)*(h*Math.tan(0)+(r/Math.cos(0)))-0 r=10, and h=60

a= (1/10)(60*0 + (10/1)

a= 0.1(10)=1

it is off by 180 degrees.

This is the offset we are getting with angel a output.

how we can explain this?

Thx

ASKER

I m done with pkwan's b(x) equation. After discussing the 180 degree problem with a(b), I will start checking your good equations.

>a=(1/r)*(h*Math.tan(b)+(r/Math.cos(b)))-b <-- our starting equation.
Where did you get that equation ?

In your question at the top above here, you have
a = (r *tan(b) + h/cos(b) - h)/r - b
That is correct.

In your new question at
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/27245193/Animation-help-3.html
eq. 2 in your graph is correct.

ASKER

sorry for confusion. I ran from 0" to 60"

The output looks good:

a deg. b deg. x
00.00 00.00 00.00
01.93 06.02 01.00
03.97 08.59 02.00
06.12 10.62 03.00

204.37 49.60 56.00
208.87 49.96 57.00
213.38 50.32 58.00
217.90 50.67 59.00
222.43 51.01 60.00

Looks good to me although a(x) is not used. Here we have used a(b).

import java.text.DecimalFormat;
public class Data1 {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("00.00");
      double h = 60;
      double r = 10;
      double a = 0;
      double b = 0;
      
      System.out.println("a deg.\t  b deg.  x");
      for(double x = 0; x <= 60; x +=1.0){

            b = Math.acos((r*(x+r)+h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x,2)+Math.pow(h,2)-2*x*r))/
             (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2)));
            a = (((r *Math.tan(b) + h/Math.cos(b) - h))/r) - b;
            
        System.out.println(" " + df.format(a*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + 
                df.format(b*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(x));

      }
  }
}

Open in new window

That last code outputs something close to what mine does. I will try to find out why they don't match.

ASKER

by the way, the first equations are also yours. pkwan only helps in manipulation of them.

ASKER

Based on the comment from pkwan, I modified the equation. see how this compares to what you have:

a deg. b deg. x
00.00 00.00 00.00
00.05 00.95 01.00
00.19 01.90 02.00
00.43 02.85 03.00
00.76 03.79 04.00

134.27 42.71 59.00
138.18 43.17 60.00

import java.text.DecimalFormat;
public class Data1 {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("00.00");
      double h = 60;
      double r = 10;
      double a = 0;
      double b = 0;
      
      System.out.println("a deg.\t  b deg.  x");
      for(double x = 0; x <= 60; x +=1.0){

            b = Math.acos((r*(x+r)+h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x,2)+Math.pow(h,2)+2*x*r))/
             (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2)));
            a = (((r *Math.tan(b) + h/Math.cos(b) - h))/r) - b;
            
        System.out.println(" " + df.format(a*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + 
                df.format(b*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(x));

      }
  }
}

Open in new window

ASKER

pkwan,

Do you ever make a mistake? I guess not.

I see that you are asking for a graph. The graph site does not allow enough chars for a(x); no problem with just b(x) though.

So, I added a graph to an excel spreadsheet (attached) that I did for an earlier question. Rope-Puller.xlsx
rope-pull.PNG

You can change the values of r and h in Excel and immediately see the effect on the graph.

I compared your last code(Data1.java) to my output. They still don't match. In fact your previous version of Data1 was a better match to my output. I am going offline. I will be back in the morning.

Thanks phoffric, that looks good.
Could you graph the results a(x) from the two separate methods on the same graph ?
In the first method we used these two equations
x = r/cos(b) + h*tan(b) - r
a = (r *tan(b) + h/cos(b) - h)/r - b
by incrementing "b" in each equation to calculate "x" and "a"
In the second method we solved for "b" as a function of "x" ( thanks to the method suggested by pkwan) and plugged it to the second equation. Thus we can now increment "x" and calculate "a" directly.
Good night.

ASKER

re> They still don't match

If in your judgment the second set of the equations produce better data, we should just use those.

Did you go through my derivation ?
From my post above here:

x = htan(b) + r/cos(b) - r
x/h = tan(b) + (r/h)/cos(b) - r/h
let j = x/h
k = r/h
C = cos(b)
Use pkwan's method:
sqrt(1 - C^2)/C = tan(b) //trig identity
j+k = sqrt(1 - C^2)/C + (r/h)/C
C(j+k) - k = sqrt(1 - C^2)
(C(j+k) - k)^2 = 1 - C^2
C^2(j+k) + k^2 - 2Ck(j+k) = 1 - C^2
0 = ((j+k)^2 + 1)C^2 - 2k(j+k)C + k^2 - 1
Use quadratic formula:
C = (2k(j+k) + sqrt((2k(j+k))^2 - 4((j+k)^2 + 1)(k^2 - 1)))/2((j+k)^2 + 1)

I used j and k to make it more readable and more concise. Where is it not clear ?
The line
0 = ((j+k)^2 + 1)C^2 - 2k(j+k)C + k^2 - 1
is my quadratic equation. Maybe it's clearer if I add brackets
0 = [[((j+k)^2 + 1)]] C^2 - [[2k(j+k)]] C + [[ k^2 - 1]]
The bracketed terms are used in the quadratic formula.
pkwan had a great idea but I don't think he followed through with the implementation.

ASKER

re:> pkwan had a great idea but I don't think he followed through with the implementation.

O guess because he had

b(x) and a(x, b)

not

b(x) and a(x)

yes?

I am through with going over working on b(x) and a(x, b), now I am starting on your new equations.

I am sure, as you have stated also, your numbers look good. I will update you shortly.

Thanks,

Mike

ASKER

rrz@871311,

As you have stated, because of j and k subs, it is more compact. I further simplified to:

C=(k(j+k) + SQRT(j^2+2jk+1))/((j+k)^2+1)

Now I will test it in code. I really don't see how this should result in something different than what pkawn had. Of course one possible source of problem could be java's conversions during the calculations.

brb

ASKER

rrz@871311,

After checking your equation, I ran it. It has identical values as pkwan's. Using his equation I get b deg. and using your equation I get C deg. listed below:

a deg. b deg. x C deg.
00.00 00.00 00.00 00.00
00.05 00.95 01.00 00.95
00.19 01.90 02.00 01.90
00.43 02.85 03.00 02.85

130.41 42.25 58.00 42.25
134.27 42.71 59.00 42.71
138.18 43.17 60.00 43.17

import java.text.DecimalFormat;
public class Data1 {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("00.00");
      double h = 60;
      double r = 10;
      double a = 0;
      double b = 0;
      double C = 0;
      double j = 0;
      double k = r/h;
      
      System.out.println("a deg.  b deg.   x     C deg.");
      for(double x = 0; x <= 60; x +=1.0){
            j=x/h;
            C=Math.acos((k*(j+k) + Math.sqrt(Math.pow(j,2)+2*j*k+1))/(Math.pow((j+k),2)+1));
            b = Math.acos((r*(x+r)+h*Math.sqrt(Math.pow(x,2)+Math.pow(h,2)+2*x*r))/
             (Math.pow((x+r),2) + Math.pow(h,2)));
            a = (((r *Math.tan(b) + h/Math.cos(b) - h))/r) - b;
            
        System.out.println(" " + df.format(a*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + 
                df.format(b*(180/Math.PI)) + "  " + df.format(x)+ "   " + df.format(C*(180/Math.PI)));

      }
  }
}

Open in new window

>> Could you graph the results a(x) from the two separate methods on the same graph ?

The data for the two separate methods are both in the attached spreadsheet. When I plotted the both results on one graph, they overlapped.

>C=(k(j+k) + SQRT(j^2+2jk+1))/((j+k)^2+1)
I don't think that is right. Could you show us how you arrived at that ?

ASKER

brb on that

Thanks proffric, I don't have Excel, so I couldn't see that.
The graph you posted is great. It is easy to see that
b=a at x=20
initial slope of b(x) (see http:#36325705 ) db/dx = 1/60

>brb
What does that mean?

>> I don't have Excel
You can get the open source version for free (using MS on one PC, and open source on other).
http://www.openoffice.org/

brb = be right back

Thanks phoffric.

ASKER

re:> Could you show us how you arrived at that ?

I responded: "brb on that". sorry for not using full sentense.

Here is how I got what you were asking for:

x = h* tan(b) +(r/cos(b) - r
(x/h)=tan(b) + (r/h)/cos(b) - (r/h)
j=x/h k=r/h C=cos(b) T=tan(b)
j= T + (k/C) -k having: T = SQRT(1-c^2)/C

j-k = SQRT(1-c^2)/C + (k/C)

(j+k)C = SQRT(1-c^2) + k

(j+k)C - k = SQRT(1-c^2)

((j+k)C - k)^2 = (1-c^2)

(j+k)^2C^2 + k^2 - 2k(j+k)C -1 + c^2 =0

((j+k)^2 +1)C^2 - 2k(j+k)C + (k^2-1) =0

delta= SQRT([]^2 - 4[])/2[]

delta= SQRT([-2k(j+k)]^2 - 4[(j+k)^2 +1)(k^2-1)])

delta= SQRT(4k^2(j+k)^2 - 4(j+k)^2 +1)(k^2-1))

delta= 2SQRT(k^2(j+k)^2 - (j+k)^2 +1)(k^2-1))

delta= 2SQRT(k^2(j^2+k^2+2jk) - (j^2 + k^2 + 2jk + 1)(k^2-1))

delta= 2SQRT(j^2k^2+k^4+2jk^3 - (j^2k^2-j^2 + k^4-k^2 + 2jk^3-2jk + k^2-1))

delta= 2SQRT(j^2k^2+k^4+2jk^3 - j^2k^2+j^2 - k^4+k^2 - 2jk^3+2jk - k^2+1)

delta= 2SQRT(j^2+2jk+1)/2(j+k)^2 +1)

C=(2k(j+k)+2SQRT(j^2+2jk+1)/2(j+k)^2 +1)

C=(k(j+k)+SQRT(j^2+2jk+1)/(j+k)^2 +1)

ASKER

correction...

C=(k(j+k)+SQRT(j^2+2jk+1))/(j+k)^2 +1)

ASKER

phoffric,

Thank you for the graph. It gives more insight on the working of the assembly. Very valuable. You are a few step ahead of the game. After the animation program, I will be focusing in that and possibly posting related questions on that.

Regards,

Mike

It is interesting to change the r and h values and verify that your intuition about what the graph should look like matches the actual graph.

The equations used for x = f(b), where b is incremented is based on results in your question. The equations for b = b(x) are not as I had done them awhile back. But they are equivalent to what you are using based on spot check verification of the data you have been posting.

ASKER

x = f(b) is not a good to function to worry about. No one would worry about the magnitude of b as input or output.

Input should be x (always) and rotation should be output.

I did it both ways in the spreadsheet so that I could compare results for verification. The results agree.

ASKER

thanks

Excellent work! Great simplification! I was being lazy.

public class Ax {
  public static void main(String args[]) {
      DecimalFormat df = new DecimalFormat("00.000");
      double h = 60; //height of drum from base line
      double r = 10; //drum radius
      double k = r/h;
      double j = 0;
      double a = 0;  // angle the drum has been rotated
      double C = 0; // equals cos(b) 
      for(double x = 0; x <= 1000; x += 50){
          j = x/h;
          C = (k*(j+k) + Math.sqrt(j*j + 2*j*k + 1))/((j+k)*(j+k) + 1);
          a = (r * Math.tan(Math.acos(C)) + h/C - h)/r - Math.acos(C);
          System.out.println(" x = " + df.format(x) + " a = " + df.format(a) + " b = " + df.format(Math.acos(C)));
      }
  }
}

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Output:
x = 00.000 a = 00.000 b = 00.000
x = 50.000 a = 01.759 b = 00.667
x = 100.000 a = 05.498 b = 00.992
x = 150.000 a = 09.905 b = 01.153
x = 200.000 a = 14.571 b = 01.247
x = 250.000 a = 19.358 b = 01.307
x = 300.000 a = 24.212 b = 01.348
x = 350.000 a = 29.105 b = 01.378
x = 400.000 a = 34.023 b = 01.401
x = 450.000 a = 38.959 b = 01.420
x = 500.000 a = 43.908 b = 01.434
x = 550.000 a = 48.865 b = 01.446
x = 600.000 a = 53.830 b = 01.456
x = 650.000 a = 58.800 b = 01.465
x = 700.000 a = 63.774 b = 01.472
x = 750.000 a = 68.751 b = 01.479
x = 800.000 a = 73.731 b = 01.485
x = 850.000 a = 78.714 b = 01.490
x = 900.000 a = 83.698 b = 01.494
x = 950.000 a = 88.684 b = 01.498
x = 1000.000 a = 93.672 b = 01.502

ASKER

Where do we go from here? Is a desktop animation or a JApplet possible at this point?

new question is at:
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/27245193/Animation-help-3.html

>Where do we go from here?
It would nice to see a graph of a = f(x) ,for x=0 to 1000
I guess if we ask real nice, proffric might post one. I tried to plug it into
http://www.wolframalpha.com/
but its about 8 characters to big(even if I cram it all together.
To make it as easy as possible, here is what is needed.
If we let h=60 r=10 k=.6 j=x/60 , then we have
C = (.16*(x/60+.16)+sqrt((x/60)^2+x/180+1))/((x/60+.6)^2+1)
plug C into
a = (tan(arccos(C))+6/C-6)-arccos(C)

I was able to get a image(see below).
>Is a desktop animation or a JApplet possible at this point?
Yes, I'll start working on it, after dinner tonight.
wolframalpha-20110809173740192.gif

oops
>If we let h=60 r=10 k=.6 j=x/60
I meant
If we let h=60 r=10 k=.1666666 j=x/60

ASKER

re:> if we ask real nice, proffric might post one.

I will post a new question to do this, hoping he has the time for it.

Also, I have to tell your contribution in developing the original equation was just amazing. I look forward to see the JApplet.

Thanks,

Mike

ASKER

Paul,

The plot question is at:

https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/27247503/plot-using-http-www-wolframalpha-com.html

Thank you,

Mike

ASKER

Thank you pkwan.