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Virtual Machines for HP Proliant DL360 G4 - Desperate Need Help !

Posted on 2011-09-18
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Last Modified: 2013-11-23
Hello,

This is my first question, ..
I am not a stranger to computers, ... but,
I am a little bit of a newbie when it comes to servers and virtualisation.

Here is my problem, ..

I am currently running :
HP Proliant DL360 G4
2 x Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.40GHz
6 GB Memory

I am painfully aware that this servers does not support hardware virtualisation, and as a result of that cannot use Hyper-V.

I should also mention that to my knowledge there are NO options for VT / virtualisation in the BIOS(Huge problem).

I am planning on creating a setup to let a few friends and family access the server to use their own Virtual desktop and a few pre installed softwares.

Please could someone suggest the following to make this possible,

1 - Ideal Operating System (windows server 2003/2008/R2 Win 764bit etc..)
2 - Best solution for creating Virtual machines (an individual desktop for about 10 users)

If some one could point me in the right direction i will be forever grateful as it has been preventing me from continuing with my project for about 2 weeks :(


Thank you in advance

Best Regards
Andy
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Question by:IMV
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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The HP DL360G4 does not support Intel-VT.

The processor, motherboard and processor do not support Intel Virtualisation Technology required by a Hypervisor. The processor may support 64 bit, but it does not have Intel-VT required for Hyper-V or VMware.

I would recommend, VMware ESXi 4.0 which although not on the HCL for VMware ESXi 4.0 (Hardware Compatibility List) does run on the DL360 G4. But you will not be able to run any 64 bit Guest VMs.

See here

 DL380 G4
Although the above is a DL380, it's the same G4 series of HP servers. Other than ESXi 4.0, it's unlikely that any other Hypervisor will function. But here is a list.

Type 1 and Type 2 Hypervisor Downloads

Type 2 Hypervisor Downloads for Windows OS

VMware Player 3.0 Free Download
http://downloads.vmware.com/d/info/desktop_downloads/vmware_player/3_0

VMware Server 2.0.2 Free Download
http://downloads.vmware.com/d/info/datacenter_downloads/vmware_server/2_0

VMware Workstation 7.1.4 (60 day trial, $199)
http://downloads.vmware.com/d/details/wkst_714_win/ZGolYnR0akBiZGh0Kg==

Oracle Virtualbox 4.0
http://www.virtualbox.org/

Parallels Desktop 4 for Windows
http://www.parallels.com/uk/products/desktop/pd4wl/


Type 1 Bare Metal Hypervisors
VMware vSphere Hypervisor (ESXi)

https://www.vmware.com/tryvmware/index.php?p=free-esxi&lp=1

Microsoft Hyper-V Server 2008 R2 with Service Pack 1 (SP1)
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/dd776191.aspx

VMware Workstation is a Type 2 Hypervisor, other Type 2 Hypervisors include, VMware Server 2, VMware Player 3.0, Virtualbox 4.0, and Parallels.

Type 2 Hypervisors are SLOW.  In most reviews and experience, they perform at roughly 30-40% hardware capability.  That means an OS in a VM run off VMWare Workstation will likely perform at best like it has an 800 MHz CPU if you have 2 GHz physical CPU. You install Type 2 hypervisors onto of an existing host operating system.

If you use a Type 1 Hypervisor, you get MUCH better performance. ESX, ESXi, are all Type 1 hypervisors - they (based on experience and reviews) typically get 80-90% hardware capability - so that same VM run off the same 2 GHz CPU should operate more like it has a 1.6 GHz CPU instead of 800 Mhz. Type 1 hypervisors are installed on the bare metal of the server.

Type 1 Hypervisors also include Hyper-V.

 
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Expert Comment

by:Luciano Patrão
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Hi

Some of the this CPU Intel(R) Xeon is not a Supported Intel® VT-x

So you can only use VMware ESX 3.5/4.0 and run VMs with 32-bit.

Even so, HP Proliant DL360 G4 have many issues regarding installing VMware. Also with the disk controller have some issues.

If you want you can install a Windows(2008 if wnated) and you can use VMware Workstation and create the VMs that you need.

Jail
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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6GB of memory is not a lot of memory for your virtual machines. 2GB is used by the Hypervisor, so you've only got 4GB to allocate to VMs.

which could be 4 x 1GB XP Desktops!
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Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE) earned 500 total points
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HP Proliant DL360 G4 runs perfect with VMware ESXi/ESX 3.5/4.0. It's a proper HP server.
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by:IMV
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Thanks guys for your time to help :)

Ok,

so in short terms im up a creek without a a paddle, nothing new there...

anyway, i have just been talking with a friend and they suggested i use a linux based OS like ubuntu, so ..

either
install Ubuntu Cloud
or
install Ubuntu Server and install Xen Cloud

does that sound logical to you guys ?

would it work ?


Thanks
Andy
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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Not, not at all.

You can use vSphere ESXi 3.5 and 4.0 on this server, we have servers in our Lab, and we use vSphere ESXi 3.5 and 4.0 installed on a USB flash drive with NO ISSUES.

No Intel-VT!

Use vSphere ESXi 3.5 and 4.0 on this server.
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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In response to your question

1 - Ideal Operating System (windows server 2003/2008/R2 Win 764bit etc..)


VMware vSphere 4.0 or 5.0.

2. Best solution for creating Virtual machines (an individual desktop for about 10 users)

I would not use virtualisation, I would install Windows 2008 on your existing server, and use 2X Application Server for FREE, 3 Concurrent Users for free if you register.

http://www.2x.com/applicationserver/

You server does not have enough memory for 10 Virtual Desktops. (PCs).

But using a Thin Client Server option, you can provide virtual desktops (sessions) for users.
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by:IMV
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ok, thanks, ..

And that would be using Windows  ?.. yes

I have been told that a linux OS would be a little faster, is this true ?




I will be testing a few different server environments and i will try this option first as you seem very certain it will work for me.

I will still try out other ways that you guys here and some other friends have mentioned so not to miss out any avenues.

I will report back here with my results and mark an answer that has proved to be most useful


Thanks again guys
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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I have been told that a linux OS would be a little faster, is this true ?

Compared to what?
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by:IMV
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Compared to windows, .. as an OS

I have only used the basic Windows up until now (XP/WIN7 etc..)
not really even thought about an alternative OS until my friend suggested it, ..

He says that it Linux faster and slightly more robust for dealing with multiple tasks, .. but as i mention all of my experience lies with Windows.
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by:paulsolov
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In the proliant series the G5 models will have Intel VT capability, DL320,360,380.
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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Windows versus Linux is a matter of debate.

Far more applications and games available for the Windows OS.
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by:aleghart
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6GB for 10 users plus the host OS...Even with vSphere, you're at ~512MB per user.  You could get better performance with Terminal Server, unless you have a lot of video streaming and audio pushed to the remote users.  For that, go with Server 2008 & Terminal Server.

The important question:  what are the users doing?

If they are knowledge workers using email, Word, Excel, etc., then TS is a good solution.  Virtualization without having sufficient RAM would be a big problem.  We supported 5 full-time users on 2GB, including a resource hungry Quickbooks install.
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by:IMV
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Hi aleghart,

Thanks for your help also

tell me, can i run terminal server on my current server (G4) as i mentioned above the server does not have the VT/Virtualization options in my bios (only available in server G5 and up)

Is Terminal server included in the winserver2008 setup or is it a separate software ?

Sorry for teh newbi questions, but alas i am when i comes to servers lol


Thanks

IMV
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by:aleghart
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TS is just a role to add.  Not separate software.

I have TS on a Server 2003 (32-bit) in production for ~4-5 years for 5 user.  I am testing TS on Server 2008 on a 64-bit box that can't do native virtualization, but will give us more RAM and resources than the older 2003 box.  I'm just as much a newbie as you, so no worries.

You can add the TS role to the server & there is a grace period for obtaining the licenses and installing the TS licensing server.  Haven't hit the end of that grace period yet.
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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Yes, the G4 supports Terminal Server, and 2X! (free).
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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You will need to purchase Terminal Server CALS (eventually after 120 days, when the trial grace period expires).
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by:IMV
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Ok guys,

thank you all for your comments regarding this,

it has been a headache to say the least lol, ...

ok, i think im going to opt for

windows server 2008 (which version standard/enterprise etc..), ..

and am deciding between these 2 for creating vm's :
VMware ESXi 4.0
or
VMWare Workstation

Ok, with that out of the way (nearly anyway), will i be able to monitor the users that are going to log into the VM's ?

What i mean is, ..

will i be able to track each users IP (so i know that a VM hasnt been hijacked by a random strangers etc..


Thanks guys
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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Monitor the Users that login into VMs - ESXi 4.0 - yes, you could issues user-ids.

VMware Workstation - no.

will i be able to track each users IP (so i know that a VM hasnt been hijacked by a random strangers etc..

No, you will have to use other remote software to do this!
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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VMWare Workstation is not likely to work because of no Intel-VT.

You have to install ESXi 4.0 on Bare Metal, so I don't know where the Windows 2008 comes in here!

So it's either VMware ESXi 4.0 (free) or Windows 2008 & VMware Workstation, you would then need TSCALs to allow users to Login to Windows 2008, WIn2k8 License, TSCALs, and VMware Workstation License, and Liicenses for VMs.

and some technology to connect this to the internet, to allow them to login.
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by:Luciano Patrão
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Hi

If you use VMware Workstation you need to install a SO before. And with a 6GB memory this will consume some of your memory.

So or you have more memory, or the best is use VMware ESXi

Then inside you can create a new VM with Windows 2008, add the Role terminal services on it, and provide to users to connect.

This can help

http://www.dabcc.com/media.aspx?id=1

http://www.windowsecurity.com/articles/configuring-windows-server-2008-terminal-services-gateway-part1.html

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc730673%28WS.10%29.aspx

Hope this can help

Jail
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by:aleghart
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Correct me if I'm wront, but VMware ESXi will only allow 32-bit guests on this hardware.  That was the limitation we ran into.  Thus prompting us to install Server 2008 (x64) natively.  We have some 32-bit guests for lower-powered things like Server 2000, ubuntu with apache server, and testing of NAS and SAN appliance packages.

If you need performance that TS can't provide, it would have to be for only 1 or 2 users to have a 32-bit guest OS running on ESXi with 6GB of RAM.  IMHO, TS2008 native on the hardware would be a better fit.
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by:Luciano Patrão
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Hi

Yes that is correct. Only run 32-bit VMs, and also version 4.0

Whit that hardware and memory, the solution must be simple.

Jail
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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That is correct ESXi 4.0 will only support 32bit Guests.

Personally, I would junk the server, in favour of better, low power servers available today.

But if that's the only resource available, TS as suggested above in 36557698, but that may not fit the brief

I am planning on creating a setup to let a few friends and family access the server to use their own Virtual desktop and a few pre installed softwares.

Please could someone suggest the following to make this possible,

1 - Ideal Operating System (windows server 2003/2008/R2 Win 764bit etc..)
2 - Best solution for creating Virtual machines (an individual desktop for about 10 users)


It depends what family and friends want to do on the virtual machines, do they not have faster computers at home for home use anyway?

or do they want to use VMs, that they do not have access to otherwise, Amazon Cloud Services, probably provides a better solution.

If they want to experiment with ISOs, and Creating VMs, and Learning VMware vSphere, new Providers are coming online as we speak, where this can be done, (obviously a cost!).
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by:IMV
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lol, it seems that if i had just purchased the G5 instead it would have solved alot of problems

The friends and family that are going to be using each VM was supposed to be using software that is licensed to me
(spent quite a while emailing each author to confirm that i was allowed to do this)
Thought that was going to be the hardest part haha.

anyway, ..

it seems no matter which way i go about this, with the current hardware im only going to be able to set up 2-3 "stable" VM's - if im lucky by the sounds of things as im sure the software each user will  be using will pretty much stall the server every ten minutes.

i will continue to try anything and everything that is suggested, ...

on, by, one ..

Anyone new reading this, please feel free to throw in your suggestion or pearl of wisdom :)

I will be trying TS next

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by:aleghart
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Money solves a lot of problems.

As hanccocka said, a new server will have more capacity for RAM, RAID storage, as well as more CPU horsepower.  But, you might drop $6-10K easy if you need to support 6 users each with a 4GB instance running.  If they are only running a 1GB instance with low CPU requirements (text-based documents, normal web browsing), then you can do it with your existing box with ESXi and 32-bit VMs.  Just balance out the RAM...if they can do with 1GB of RAM, maybe they can do fine with 784MB instead.
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by:IMV
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Ok, i have had to reconsider things as my current setup will not even do half the task i bought it for, purely down to my own fault, .. so ....

can someone please tell me if the following will be powerful enough to allow up to 10 users :
HP ProLiant ML110 G5
Dual Core 2.33Ghz
4GB Tower Server
1TB SATA RAID  
VMware Ready

I am keeping the other server mentioned in first post,
Can be linked together at one point ?

Thanks for your patience guys, i understand how annoying noobies can be lol

IMV
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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can someone please tell me if the following will be powerful enough to allow up to 10 users

Could you please confirm to perform what FUNCTION and Service?

VMware ESXi 4.1 or Terminal Services, because

1. Low Memory
2. Poor Disk specification

Yes, you can link them together, e.g. you could configure the DL380G4 and use it as a NAS, and use the storage on it if you required.
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by:IMV
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The functions they will be using will be software like scrapebox, senuke etc.. all licensed to me and have permissions from all authors to be used by a few people on my server.

I will be able to use VMWare that utilises the VT 64bit processors as the previous server didnt have that option, so with the new server i will be able to use VM hardware support.

as for the memory, yes i agreee it is a bit low, but nothing i cant upgrade when up an running.

Glad i can link them together, something else i can read up on.

Thanks hanccocka

so is it worth getting this server ?

or should i aim a bit higher (still pretty low budget)



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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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Well the ESXi Hypervisor will take up 2GB.

So that's going to leave you very little memory to create VMs for your family and friends.

But is just one family and friends member going to login one at a time, then it may just do!

But you would have to turn off their VM, it's quite low speced for what you want to do.

The problem is adding disk and memory can be costly.
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by:IMV
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So if i had say .. 16GB Ram ...

would that make a good difference ?

what would be a good "budget" server that would do what i am asking ?
(in an ideal situation)

Perhaps cheaper to rent a dedicated server ?
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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12GB - 16GB of RAM would give you the ability to present multiple VMs for friends and family.

and they could logon to different VMs at the same time, concurrently, if you are trying to play "hosting".

But then, does you incoming Bandwith to your servers, have the bandwidth to support multiple connections!

The ML110, ML115 are okay budget servers for home and lab use.

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by:IMV
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Yes i was told about having to increase my upload rate with my isp, i think that my upload speed is around 160 Kb/s (or kb/KBkB i never know which it is lol)

I suppose its not a bad speed for upload but i understand that my download speed is going to dramatically decrease :(

so the server mentioned would be sufficient if it had more Ram

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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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Yes, more ram.
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by:IMV
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Could you tell me if the ram from the DL360 G4 would be compatible with the ML115 ?

or would it completely depend on chip sets and other specs ?
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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No, it's not compatible.

Ram for ML115 is PC2-6400 DDR2 Unbuffered ECC memory, operating at 800MHz.

Ram for DL360 G4 PC2700 DDR 333 SDRAM

You need DDR2 for the ML115.

But I've just notice the max ram on DL115 is 8GB! (it's not much!)
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by:IMV
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Thought that might be the case from working with "normal pc's"

Hmmmmm thats a bit of a ****

there is no work around for that i assume

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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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No. Memory is different.

Maximum is 8GB.
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by:IMV
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Hello again guys :)

Im back with a slightly different question, ....

I am in the middle of deciding on another server as the one we are talking about here is Blatantly not good enough, ...

I am browsing around the net and i am wondering this ...

What are the main differences between servers and PC's

Do i need an actual server to do what i am looking for,

please could you tell me if the following system would do what i am asking regarding remote virtualisation :
3.4GHz Quad Core AMD Phenom2 x4
8GB DDR3 Ram

if it is not a good idea to do this on a PC, .. would the following be sufficient specs for at least 5 remote users :

HP DL380 G5
1 X QUAD CORE 2.0 GHZ XEON
 8 GB RAM
 DVDRW LIGHT SCRIBE
 P400 CONTROLLER

or even .....

HP DL380 G5 2x 3.0GHz DUAL CORE 8GB RAM
DUAL PSU/DVD DRIVE, ILO2 ADVANCED


I do know that ALL mentioned above have the VT+ feature


Thanks guys, i couldnt be doing his without your help


IMV
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by:Andrew Hancock (VMware vExpert / EE MVE)
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As this is a  new question, this question should really be closed, points awarded and a New Question posted.

It's one Question per post.
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by:IMV
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Yes of course,

my bad, i will award and proceed with new question.

Thanks all of you for your help,

but i have to hand the torch to hanccocoka as you have been very helpfull from the start

keep an eye out for the new question ;)


Thanks
IMV
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by:IMV
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Only partially due to my lack of server knowledge, but fantastic help and support
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