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Occupy Wall Street

Posted on 2011-10-07
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Here's a list of demands from the Occupy Wall Street bunch.

From Obama to Pelosi, this group is gaining support.

Good ideas or bad?  





Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.
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Question by:carsRST
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by:leonstryker
ID: 36931484
Hmm, I can possibly support two of those demands, specifically:

>Demand four:  Free college education.
As long as it applies to US citizens, or green card holders only and has other limitations such as strict entrance examinations and enforced/unbiased subject quotas.

>Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
But, not if it contains preferential treatment provisions.
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by:beetos
ID: 36931890
Where did you get this list of demands from Cars?
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by:Tlingit
ID: 36931969
>>Where did you get this list of demands from Cars?

From their leader, President Obama, who else?
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by:carsRST
ID: 36932083
>>Where did you get this list of demands from Cars?

Is this not what these deadbeats want?  I've seen interviews, and most have no clue why they're out there.  Some have been paid to carry signs.

Tea party rallies have to be held in the evenings or weekends b/c their attendees work.  


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by:beetos
ID: 36932131
Cars,

Why do you hate Americans so much?
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by:carsRST
ID: 36932180
>>Why do you hate Americans so much?

You mean US of KKKA America?

Not God bless America!  God d*mn America!

Could it be that America is a downright mean country?
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by:beetos
ID: 36932216
Not America as a nation, an idea, or a global political player, but AMERICANS - the people therein.  99% of which you accuse of being lazy, deadbeat parasites?
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by:carsRST
ID: 36932253
Beetos, what do you think this country would look like if these nuts had their way?

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by:Anthony Russo
Anthony Russo earned 32 total points
ID: 36932346
Many of the demands are just a bunch of people writing down wishlists without any realization of how it is supposed to happen or caring that it has to be paid for.

I don't believe carsRST hates Americans. I do believe he hates the way many Americans act. Many conservatives love the country and what the country once was and also the values that many American's once held. However they do not like the way American's act now. The changes and the entitlements that are now expected.

The problem is in grouping all liberals as lazy and agreeing with the 3 examples that carsRST gives above. Also liberals grouping all conservatives as fascists.

I personally am independent and have no problem, and all problems with both liberals and conservatives. I understand both their views and see both their faults. I rather think for myself than follow a group and agree with certain points of each side, and disagree with certain points on each side.

Some of the Occupy Wall Street folks are right, and some aren't. Just like in most things in life.
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by:beetos
ID: 36932359
You mean if Wall St. were held accountable?   If instead of union busting, tax laws and loopholes favoring the wealthy, and financial influence in politics we had a nation that promoted the working class? If we regulated marijuana instead of letting the cartels do it?  If we allowed immigrants to work instead of arresting them so our food is rotting on the vine?  If we respected and encouraged teachers instead of scapegoating them?  

It would probably look like the Utopian fantasy of the 1950's all conservatives seem to revere except without the racism, sexism, and ecological abuse we've worked so hard to overcome.  You may have heard of it.   A time  when one income was enough to provide for a family.
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by:Tlingit
ID: 36932483
Beetos, what are you saying?  You really want government to come in and take from one person and give it to another?  There are countries for you and people like you to live in.  Try North Korea where everything is run by the government and the people are starving.  Do you know what it takes in this day and age to start up and company, or invent a product and get that product from a blue print of someone's imagination to the production floor of some plant to the consumers who want to buy it?  You have to hire lawyers to patent the product among all the other things, marketers to market the product, a company to produce the product, and buyers to buy it if it is even sellable.  Then if by chance the products sells well, at the end of all this work by the person who brought this product that everybody loves, you want the government to come in and take whatever they want and give it to someone who didn't earn it?
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by:sbdt8631
sbdt8631 earned 8 total points
ID: 36932823
>>I personally am independent and have no problem, and all problems with both liberals and conservatives. I understand both their views and see both their faults. I rather think for myself than follow a group and agree with certain points of each side, and disagree with certain points on each side.

AAAwww, that requires Thinking.  It is so much easier just to react.:)
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by:carsRST
ID: 36932881
>>I don't believe carsRST hates Americans. I do believe he hates the way many Americans act.

Exactly.  We live in a country where 50% of the people pay 95% of the tax bill.  Time for the fairness that liberals are always calling for.



>>You mean if Wall St. were held accountable?  

How much did Obama give the banks?




Re: these deadbeats that want the world for nothing...it's funny to see them bash capitalism yet, to do it, they use tools that only exist b/c of capitalism: iphone, facebook, twitter, ipad, etc....

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by:leonstryker
ID: 36933132
Ok, I think you guys are ready for this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yipV_pK6HXw
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by:Tlingit
Tlingit earned 32 total points
ID: 36933191
U.S. innovations was fashioned under the free enterprise system.  Here are a few examples:

HP sold and made their products from the founders garage when it first started.

http://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-information/about-hp/history/history.html

Apple, in a similar fashion made and sold their first product from their garage as well.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1873486_1873491_1873530,00.html

Bill Gate (Microsoft) also had humble beginnings.  In 1975 Microsoft sold their first computer program Basic to a computer company in New Mexico.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Series/History/The-History-of-Microsoft-1975

Michael Dell (Dell Computers) started his company by selling computers out of his dorm in college.

http://www.biography.com/people/michael-dell-9542199

These are just a few examples of success in the technology field.  These people probably would have excelled if they lived in other countries.  It was the free enterprise system that gave them opportunity to do the things they wanted to do.  They all have some things in common:

            1.)  They had no government help
            2.)  They had desire to succeed
            3.)  They had good work ethic
            4.)  They had an idea and put into action
            5.)  They struggled in the beginning before they became successful
            6.)  They put their whole lives on the line in order to succeed

It is ten times harder now a days to startup a company or bring a new product to market then say back then.  Today there is a vast majority of Americans who want something for nothing and they have no idea what it takes to run a successful business or to make money, so it is easy for them to support someone who will take it from those who worked hard all their lives and give it those who don't because they simply feel they are entitled to their success and wealth.  Who says it is their right to take from those who laid it all on the line to become rich and give it to those who haven't paid that price?
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by:carsRST
ID: 36933223
>>Ok, I think you guys are ready for this:

Good post, Leon.  


>>Today there is a vast majority of Americans who want something for nothing and they have no idea what it takes to run a successful business or to make money,

Herman Cain said it best:
If you're not rich 'blame yourself'
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by:BigRat
ID: 36938834
>>Bill Gate (Microsoft) also had humble beginnings

Yes, he borrowed 100,000 dollars from his dad to start his first company.

>>These people probably would have excelled if they lived in other countries.

Is that what you wanted to say, or is there a "not" missing?

>>Occupy Wall Street

I'm going to start a campaign to occupy Luxembourg, because after FR/BE/L rescued the Dexia Bank from the Lehmann Brothers crash, we are now having to rescue them from too much Greek government bonds. Although many countries have had to pour billions into the banking system, I can't find one piece of legislation which will even attempt to prevent the same thing happening in the future. That just shows how good the money lobby is.
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by:leonstryker
ID: 36938843
>>Bill Gate (Microsoft) also had humble beginnings
>Yes, he borrowed 100,000 dollars from his dad to start his first company.

So, whats your point? He got an investor, who happened to be his father, to fund a very risky business venture. Its not like he withdrew $100K from his multi-million dollar trust.
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by:Tlingit
ID: 36938845
"Not" is supposed to be included.  Thanks.
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by:BigRat
ID: 36938870
>>So, whats your point? He got an investor, who happened to be his father, to fund a very risky business venture

My point is the "humble beginnings" quotation. If you look into the backgrounds of many of these "self made men" the myth is greater than the reality. For William Gates the Second the 100,000 dollars was chicken feed.

>>"Not" is supposed to be included.  Thanks.

Well yes, that is really taking the biscuit, since we also in Europe, as well as many Asian companies, have many companies which were started in the same way. Just take Invar Kamprad's IKEA from Sweden, which has one of the highest taxation rates in the world, or someone like Francis Bouygues in France.

The impression, which is being given here, is that there is something about the US which makes things like this, whereas there is nothing particulary special when compared to the rest of the industrialised world.
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by:leonstryker
ID: 36938880
William Gates Sr. attended the University of Washington (UW) under the G.I. Bill, where he earned a B.A. in 1949 and a law degree in 1950. He practiced law until 1998, primarily with the law firm which he co-founded as Shidler & King in 1964.

Yes, he was not poor, but hardly a man to whom $100K was chicken feed.
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by:carsRST
ID: 36941852
>>My point is the "humble beginnings" quotation. If you look into the backgrounds of many of these "self made men" the myth is greater than the reality. For William Gates the Second the 100,000 dollars was chicken feed.



Republican presidential contender Herman Cain amplified his criticism Sunday of the growing Occupy Wall Street movement, calling the protesters “jealous’ Americans who "play the victim card” and want to “take somebody else’s” Cadillac.


http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-cain-occupy-wall-street-20111009,0,972806.story
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by:BigRat
ID: 36942113
>>Where did you get this list of demands from Cars?

It seems, due to lack of real answer, that you made them up yourself cars. Well that's very inventive, but it's a pity one is not discussing the real issues.
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by:carsRST
ID: 36942174
>>It seems, due to lack of real answer, that you made them up yourself cars.

It's on their site.  http://occupywallst.org/

However, if you listen to the interviews, most give blank looks when asked why they're protesting....including the many being paid to march.

It's apparent they are anti-American, anti-capitalist, yet no one --that I've heard-- can articulate what they would put in its place.  





Herman Cain:
“When a reporter asked me the other day, well, what do you think about those demonstrations up on Wall Street, I said, first of all, Wall Street didn’t write these failed economic policies -- the White House did,” said Cain.

He then added, “Why don’t you move the demonstrations to the White House?”
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by:carsRST
ID: 36942448
Shouldn't these people be protesting the White House given their beef with the banks?

Wasn't it Obama that supported bank bailouts and prevented these banks from repaying the government?
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by:BigRat
BigRat earned 32 total points
ID: 36943449
>>It's on their site

Well thanks for the link, the only trouble is, the contents does not match your question.

I have been through your list and have compared it top how things are here :-

1) Minimum wage conditions almost completely throughout Europe
2) Satistied in most European Countries
3) The German Social Security System is based on this premise.
4) Open
5) Already started in Germany
6) Not necessary
7) Not necessary
8) Provided basically by the European Convention
9) Borders are open to all EU citizens
10) Not applicable
11)
12) Open - we ought to have a fair, independant and non-profit organisation to do this.
13) Both French and German industrial law allows for this sort of thing.

Number 11, about debt cancellation, is of course open. But their point is that if governments allow it for things like banks and other governments, it is the tax payer who piocks up the tab.

Number 4 regarding free education is a moote point, since when I was in Britain in the sixties all the students at university had effectively free education and got a grant - not a loan - in order to study. Of course us foreign students were not eligible, but basically the idea of educating the educatable with tax payers money is not a bad idea, considering the amount of tax then then pay beqause of the better job. I'm actually all for it.

6 and 7 are not necessary. In fact most countries here did that a couple of years back to avoid a recession.

The problem I see is that the AVERAGE US unemployment is 10%, which means it will pocket much higher in some places. So it is no wonder that there are a lot of discontents.
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by:carsRST
ID: 36943474
>>1) Minimum wage conditions almost completely throughout Europe


Minimum wage and "living wage" are two different things.

In fact, the term "living wage" is thrown around a lot, but no one can define it.

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by:bergertime
bergertime earned 32 total points
ID: 36950610


Don't these people have jobs?  I'm too busy working to take a trip to wall street and hang out.  It's funny (sort of) if Bush were still in office, they would be marching against him or the war in Afgan or Gitmo or the high price of gas since Bush is in bed with the oil companies, but since Obama is in office their confused as to who to march against, so they pick capitalism.  

Unemployment is 10%, how many illegals are employed in the US?  I'm not suggesting kicking out the illegals, that wouldn't be very P.C. of me, all I'm saying is it's hard to believe that someone can leave their home behind and not speak the language very well if at all,  with little education can come here and get a job, but someone living here, with our wonderful free education system, speak the langauge and can't get a job.  Oh yeah it's all a f'n conspiracy....or well, it's Bush's fault.

BigRat
"I have been through your list and have compared it top how things are here :-"
Then why do all these lazy people and nut jobs and people who don't believe in individual responsibility(or freedom for that matter) stay here?  They need to march straight to Europe.
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by:Tlingit
ID: 36950771
>>They need to march straight to Europe.

Yes, let them experience real socialism, or ship them to China, Russia, or North Korea, but then I think they would immediately start missing Mommy and Daddy and all of their fun toys like their iPhone, iPod, and iPad that Mommy and Daddy bought for them from these greedy "Capitalistic Pigs".

Here is an article from ABC news about these protestors:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/occupy-wall-street-dark-side-hacking-threats-dirt/story?id=14706311
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leonstryker earned 36 total points
ID: 36950843
Europe vs US conditions of the listed demands.

1) Minimum wage conditions almost completely throughout Europe
Minimum exist at both Federal and State levels in the US.

2) Satistied in most European Countries
Does not exist in the US, and the majority of the US citizen do not want it.

3) The German Social Security System is based on this premise.
Root of Socialism, and unlikely to happen in the US at least in our lifetimes.

4) Open
Subsidized with means testing.

5) Already started in Germany
Some efforts have been made to this, but it continues to be not desirable economically, extremely controversial, and of dubious value.

6) Not necessary
Always beneficial, but of questionable value. Economically unaffordable.

7) Not necessary
Always beneficial, but of questionable value. Economically unaffordable.

8) Provided basically by the European Convention
Provided basically by the US Constitution.

9) Borders are open to all EU citizens
Borders are open to all US citizens.

10) Not applicable
Of questionable value. No major irregularities in the election process have been reported.

11)
Yeap, nothing to say here.

12) Open - we ought to have a fair, independent and non-profit organisation to do this.
Agreed, but how would you go about setting one up?

13) Both French and German industrial law allows for this sort of thing.
Mixture of laws in the US. Some states having the 'Right to Work' laws.
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by:beetos
beetos earned 28 total points
ID: 36952559
Occupy Wall Street is a horizontally organized resistance movement employing the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to restore democracy in America. We use a tool known as a "people's assembly" to facilitate collective decision making in an open, participatory and non-binding manner. We call ours the NYC General Assembly and we welcome people from all colors, genders and beliefs to attend our daily assemblies. To learn more about how you can start a people's assembly to organize your local community to fight back against social injustice, please read this quick guide on group dynamics in people's assemblies.

http://occupywallst.org/about/

I couldn't find the list of demands on their site.   Maybe you can post a direct link to it?

Regardless - it's a real grassroots movement ( the "paid to march" bs has been debunked ) with lots of people with many different ideas, but one of the main recurring themes is the takeover of America by large corporations who's fiscal prowess gives them power over both political parties - see "Citizens United" for example.  That's what they mean by "restore Democracy".  


In other threads, a lot of the posters here have demonized workers, the unemployed, the poor, and in general 50% of all  Americans, and all the while they've revered industry and corporations that can do no wrong and need no regulation, so I'm not surprised to see them taking the side of industry over working class Americans.


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by:Tlingit
ID: 36952650
>>In other threads, a lot of the posters here have demonized workers, the unemployed, the poor, and in general 50% of all  Americans, and all the while they've revered industry and corporations that can do no wrong and need no regulation, so I'm not surprised to see them taking the side of industry over working class Americans.

So what do they want to replace capitalism with?  What system do you want?  If you want to replace capitalism, imo you should have another system, a better system, in mind to replace it with, so what is that system?  And then what do you want to do with the rich?  Are you planning to bring out the guillotine?  You have to do something with the rich like what the French or Russians did during their revolutions?  What are you to do with them.  I guess you can go by the seat of your pants and deal with these people as you take over their money.  I don't know but something to think about.
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by:Anthony Russo
ID: 36955658
I think the biggest problem with them is that they don't have a solution. They are just frustrated and upset and want change, but without knowing what to change to, nothing can happen.

I understand the frustration in their position and give them credit for making this much noise, but without a plan, it is just going to remain as noise and accomplish nothing.
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by:carsRST
ID: 36955694
>>I think the biggest problem with them is that they don't have a solution.

They don't have a solution, a message, or brains.  They're just out there having sex, doing drugs, crapping on police cars, and causing damage.

I never thought I'd say this, but we've now found a group of people that understand economics far less than B Hussein O'Carter.

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by:carsRST
ID: 36955699
Posted a new occupy wall street question.  

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Other/Politics/Q_27392773.html
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