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Access Experts: General discussion thread for Access Zone (18-OCT-2011)

This thread is intended for general discussion among Experts participating in the Access zones.  

Discussion topics can include (but are not limited to) Access and zone related issues, tips, tricks, news, events etc.

This thread is publically visible, so please keep comments professional.  If you do have topics that should be handled off-line, please contact myself, mbizup, or jimpen at our e-e.com email addresses (i.e. JDettman@e-e.com).

Thanks,
Jim Dettman
Access Zone Advisor

Previous Discussion Thread:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Microsoft/Development/MS_Access/Q_27290867.html
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)
Asked:
Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)
1 Solution
 
als315Commented:
I have answered to a question today about column from combobox and have discovered strange thing:
In Access 2010 you can't now use this property in query:
Forms!Form1!Combobox1.Column(2) gives n error now.
You can use syntax .Column(2) in VBA, in form it is now .[Column](2)
But why it is not possible in query?
It is new bug or new feature?
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"In Access 2010 you can't now use this property in query:"

You never could. You cannot reference the Column property in a query in any version of Access.

mx
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als315Commented:
May be I've never tried it? :)
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
It works in VBA and as the Control Source for say a Text box ... but that's it.  I always felt it was kind of odd about queries.  Pretty sure  Harfang (Marcus Fischer) and/or Leigh Purvis explained why one time.mx
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aikimarkCommented:
I just wrote this general purpose Fast Concatenate article for VB/VBA developers who would like to get StringBuilder performance and functionality.
http://www.experts-exchange.com/A_8311.html
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mbizupCommented:
Some good natured competition between two top database Experts here:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/blogs/EE-Team/B_5876-Expert-Showdown-Choose-Your-Champ-and-Win.html
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aikimarkCommented:
Please read my new article:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/A_8450.html
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Nick67Commented:
@aikimark
I read your article.
There was one typo/grammar thing that was incomprehensible
<where each character may is in the ("A", "B", "C") set>

As a straight-up Access guy, who doesn't mess with classes I didn't understand what the original poster who prompted your article, or your article itself, were trying to accomplish--or where I'd want or need to use it.
Maybe that's my bad, in that I don't have the right background to appreciate what you were trying to accomplish.

The article is a link in a chain of articles about using classes in Office.  I will be having a look back through the chain to see if I can grasp how classes would make my life easier.

Thanks,
Nick67
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"who doesn't mess with classes"
I understand "Don't Mess With Texas", but classes ??

mx
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:

 For the most part, I don't use classes in VBA either.  Without full inheritance, I really don't feel their worth the effort or overhead.

Jim.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
Geezzze ....
Overhead ?
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aikimarkCommented:
@Nick67

Thanks for catching the typo.

Have you used collections in your VBA code?

Have you used a user-defined-type structure in your code?  (Type...End Type)
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aikimarkCommented:
@Jim

What flavors of inheritance do you need?
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
I prefer the monetary kind !
aikimark - clearly these boys are reeeealy old school, lol.
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aikimarkCommented:
I'm old school as well, but I will use classes when they solve a problem.

After all, a class is just another type of code 'packaging', like subs/functions/modules.
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Patrick MatthewsCommented:
I find classes very convenient for any type of hierarchical data model, or anything where I need to keep track of a "parent", its "children", and potentially, "children's children".  Lack of inheritance doesn't really bother me.

As far as overhead goes for classes, I created an Excel add-in that does most of the donkey work for me:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/A_3802.html

Nowadays, for most of my class module work, all I have to do is run the add-in to create the class module shells, and then write an Import method and an Export method for the top-most "parent" class.

While the add-in is for Excel, I do use it for Access too: just use the option to output the results to *.cls files, and then import those files into your Access VBA project.

Note that if you are using MZ Tools or similar utilities, you could create templates for class modules as well.  The only problem there is that in order to get a default property set up for your class, you have to actually import a *.cls file.  My add-in takes care of that:
If you run it in Excel, the add-in actually creates the files and then imports them for you
If you use the file output option described above, the files you import into Access, Word, Project, etc already have the modifications needed to enable the default property
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aikimarkCommented:
I'm hoping that my filtering function makes it into Patrick's wizard along with another function that will accompany an article that I'm writing.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
And of course, if you put any code in a Form or Report module, then you are using  ... classes :-)

mx
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Patrick MatthewsCommented:
MX,

Yes, that is true, but I prefer to put my non-report, non-form (and, for non-Access, non-UserForm) class functionality into its own class module(s).  That makes the code more portable.

Patrick
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
@akimark,

<< What flavors of inheritance do you need? >>

<< I'm old school as well, but I will use classes when they solve a problem.

After all, a class is just another type of code 'packaging', like subs/functions/modules. >>

  VBA is object based, not object orientated.  Because of this, VBA does not provide implementation inheritance (it only provides interface inheritance).  That really robs classes in VBA of the power that classes normally command.  For example, in VFP, everything is a class and fully inheritable.

  VFP comes with base classes and I use a commercial framework, which inherit from those.  In turn, I have a “developer” layer, which inherits from that.  This allows me to control the look, feel, and functionality of all the apps I develop.   Finally, there is an app specific layer.

<< I'm old school as well, but I will use classes when they solve a problem. After all, a class is just another type of code 'packaging', like subs/functions/modules. >>

  With VBA, you can create multiple objects, have collections of objects, and parent/child relationships between objects, but this is as far as you can go with it.   I find that limiting and as a result, I find a lot of the things you can do with a class in VBA can just as easily been done with standard code and function calls.


  For example, sinking events of a control; I have code to populate the OnXXXXX event of every form with a standard function call.  As a result, I end up with the same affect as using a class, but I don’t need to waste time hooking up every textbox control to a class.  I find the code is simpler and more straight forward, which makes it easier to maintain as well.

@mx,

<<Geezzze ....
Overhead ? >> 

   I wasn’t only talking about the extra work in Access/VBA required to hook up classes, but the additional overhead classes incur in a full OOP environment where hierarchies exist.  Classes as a whole are not the panacea that every OOP supporter would like you to believe as they have problems of their own.

  First is the concept that a class is a black box and it should know nothing about the world outside of it so it’s reusable.  But that also implies then that it must check the state of everything before it can act.   Often when you get deep into a class hierarchy, you will discover that the state of something (like a flag) has often been checked three or four times.  So there is additional overhead there.

  The other issue that comes up with classes is composite classes, which many use as they are quite handy (a container class that has at least one member).  There are a couple of problems here.  First there is instantation time.  If you had a container with a label and created it 50 times, that obviously will be slower then one container with 50 labels.

  The other issue with composite classes is that you can’t delete members when sub-classing.  This leads you to build very shallow classes which don’t contain many members.  End result is you add a lot of stuff at the end as a concrete class, which is exactly what classes are supposed to avoid.  And if you mess up and add too much at a higher level, you can end up doing a LOT of re-working.

  So you build shallow, which trend towards traditional programming anyway, plus incur a lot of overhead in the process because you need to instantiate so many classes.

 Don’t get me wrong; I do like classes, but they are not all they are cracked up to be either and I just don’t find them worthwhile in VBA for the most part.

Jim.
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aikimarkCommented:
@Jim

I think we're comparing apples and oranges.  You have a GUI objects and I'm working with code-only objects.  You are working, part of the time, with VFP and I'm working entirely in VBA (or VB classic).

Classes can expose/provide events and can be used like your ONxxxx form events.

I'm not arguing with you about the limitations of VBA classes.  I was mostly curious about what you did that required an OOP inheritance that wasn't supported.
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
@aikimark,

<<I think we're comparing apples and oranges.  You have a GUI objects and I'm working with code-only objects.  You are working, part of the time, with VFP and I'm working entirely in VBA (or VB classic).>>

  To a certain extent you could say that is true I guess, but a class simply represents something. So when discussing classes, I don't think of code-only vs GUI classes as some how being two different things.  A class can end up as being code only, such as a BO (Business Object), or it may represent a GUI element with no code and just properties, or it might be a mix of both.

<<I'm not arguing with you about the limitations of VBA classes.  I was mostly curious about what you did that required an OOP inheritance that wasn't supported. >>

  Understood.

Jim.
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Nick67Commented:
<I was mostly curious about what you did that... > made the use of a class in MS Access an elegant solution to a problem.
I understand OOP from a 10000 ft. viewpoint--but I've never used it.

Before I religiously went and murdered any use of SendKeys because of what they do to NumLock in Windows 7 (randomly toggle it) I tried using a NumLockClass filled with API code that I had googled up.  It's purpose was, when called, determine the NumLock state and toggle it.
Though the code was good, timing issues made it unworkable.  SendKeys asynchronously toggled NumLock, and using the class to toggle it back without a DoEvents wait period proved fruitless.

You folks you have used classes in MS Access, can you post a sample using a class, and showing why using a class is a more elegant solution to a problem that say Public Functions and Subs and global variables.

I cannot imagine a scenario in Access where I'd want to use a class.  But that's a failure on my part.  And maybe I am missing something big and useful
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
@PM

"Yes, that is true, but I prefer to put my non-report, non-form (and, for non-Access, non-UserForm) class functionality into its own class module(s).  That makes the code more portable."
Ahhh, oook ... but I was just noting that a Form/Report module is ... a Class Module, with less known benefit that you can add custom properties to a Form because, which I find quite useful.

@JDettman:
"but the additional overhead classes incur in a full OOP environment where hierarchies exist."
Seems like a moot point when discussing VBA ....?

"Classes as a whole are not the panacea that every OOP supporter would like you to believe as they have problems of their own."

Ever since DeCompile was expose (fortunately by Michael Kaplan in A97), I have only seen it trash one db. However, I *never* execute Decompile w/o first making a quick back of a db, which is soooo quick and easy to do in Explorer ... Control C + Control V or hold Control and drag.
Likewise, I have never in 19 years seen a problem with any Class I have created and used.

mx

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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
@N67
Here is a simple example and I don't even need a sample:
You have an app that requires starting multiple independent timers, with start/pause/stop functionality.
I have a simple Class that does just this.  One Form can instantiate multiple times with ease.
Doing this w/o a class would require either a much more complicated Function or multiple copies of the same function.

I also have a Class that supports multiple instances of the Access Multi Select List box ... which I use often.

Hope that helps :-)

mx
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Dale FyeCommented:
Joe,

Can you provide a sample db that uses your class that supports multi Select list boxes?

Dale
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
@Mx,

<<"but the additional overhead classes incur in a full OOP environment where hierarchies exist."
Seems like a moot point when discussing VBA ....?>>

  I didn’t say it was, but the extra coding required to hook them up in VBA is not.  And while performance problems don't exist to the point they would with a full OOP language, I would not be shocked to see the same thing in VBA to a limited extent.  Have I ever checked that?  No.   But in general, instantiation of a class/object is always going to take longer then straight code execution. Memory consumption would be higher as well.

<<Ever since DeCompile was expose (fortunately by Michael Kaplan in A97), I have only seen it trash one db. However, I *never* execute Decompile w/o first making a quick back of a db, which is soooo quick and easy to do in Explorer ... Control C + Control V or hold Control and drag.>>

  I'm not sure who it was that initially exposed /decompile, but it certainly wasn't with A97.  It was introduced by Microsoft with Access 95 when they switched from Access Basic to VBA.   I know for certain, because I was on the beta.

  Microsoft was changing the binaries for VBA each week as they got it all hooked up.  At the time, importing into a fresh DB was not as easy as it is now, so it was a royal pain each week to get anything tested.  Because of that, Microsoft added /decompile to invalidate the compiled p-code, forcing VBA to re-compile everything again.  You could then test week to week without a lot of hassle.

<<Likewise, I have never in 19 years seen a problem with any Class I have created and used.>>

 Well then you must be talking about something other then VBA, because VBA wasn’t introduced until Access 95, which was released in the 2nd half of '95.  Access has been around since ‘92, but neither 1.1 nor 2.0 had class capabilities.

Jim.
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Nick67Commented:
<I also have a Class that supports multiple instances of the Access Multi Select List box ... which I use often.>

I like the control that multi-value fields use--despise multi-value fields, mind you--but I don't know that I like it enough to actually code up the control as a class.
and really mucking with the UI wasn't really how I meant <use of a class in MS Access an elegant solution to a problem.>

The timers are closer to what I had in mind -- and something that I might do since the OnTimer event bleeds over into the VBA IDE and mucks up Intellisense, which is highly annoying.  Anybody else want to chime in?  What problem (other than mucking, extending or patching the shortcomings of the UI) are classes useful for in MS Access?
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aikimarkCommented:
In my Better Concatenate Function article,
http:/A_7811.html
I created a high performance timing class.

You can get this class in the zip file I linked to in the article:
http://filedb.experts-exchange.com/incoming/2011/10_w43/512712/BetterConcat-Data.zip

In this case, I needed to time several different events that might overlap one another.  Packaging the code in a class made it super simple to use.  It is possible to define an array of class objects/variables.  Likewise, you can store class objects/variables in collections and dictionaries.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"  I'm not sure who it was that initially exposed /decompile, but it certainly wasn't with A97. "
I confirmed with Kaplan quite some time ago that it was officially exposed in A97.  If you don't agree, then take it up with Michael Kaplan.

" Well then you must be talking about something other then VBA, because VBA wasn’t introduced until Access 95, which was released in the 2nd half of '95.  Access has been around since ‘92, but neither 1.1 nor 2.0 had class capabilities."

LOL.  It was a finger of speech :-)  IE, Ive *never* seen an issue with Class Modules ... and I've used and have many.

mx
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"The timers are closer to what I had in mind "
btw ... I'm using the API timer functions ....

mx
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Nick67Commented:
OK, maybe I am getting it.

Now, newer digital cameras don't show up as a drive letter in Windows Explorer, which is highly annoying since you then can't use FileSystemObject or Dir to do anything with them.  So I use WIA and wiaaut.dll to do that.  But the dialog box shows up too small, and with a default selection--both bad--but I can't manipulate it directly with VBA because it's modal to Access.  VBA execution is stopped until the box is dismissed.

So, I coded up the WIA stuff in VBScript.  The VBA shells the VBScript, and then uses API calls to manipulate the resulting WIA.Dialog box and then does DoEvents while it exists.

Is this something that would have been better and more easily done in a class?
Or would the WIA.dialog still have been modal to VBA if I had done it that way?
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aikimarkCommented:
I found my local copy of the high performance timer class.  If you save this as a .cls file, you can import it into any Access project.

VERSION 1.0 CLASS
BEGIN
  MultiUse = -1  'True
END
Attribute VB_Name = "clsTimer"
Attribute VB_GlobalNameSpace = False
Attribute VB_Creatable = False
Attribute VB_PredeclaredId = False
Attribute VB_Exposed = False
Option Explicit

Private curFreq As Currency
Private curStart As Currency
Private curEnd As Currency
Private dblElapsed As Double
Private curCounter As Currency

Private Declare Function QueryPerformanceFrequency Lib "kernel32" (lpFrequency As Currency) As Long
Private Declare Function QueryPerformanceCounter Lib "kernel32" (lpPerformanceCount As Currency) As Long

Private Sub Class_Initialize()
    QueryPerformanceFrequency curFreq       'Get the timer frequency
    QueryPerformanceCounter curCounter
End Sub

Public Sub StartTimer()
    QueryPerformanceCounter curStart        'Get the start time
    curCounter = curStart
End Sub

Public Function StopTimer() As Double
    QueryPerformanceCounter curEnd      'Get the end time
    dblElapsed = (curEnd - curStart) / curFreq   'Calculate the duration (in seconds)
    StopTimer = dblElapsed
    curCounter = curEnd
End Function

Public Property Get Elapsed() As Double
    Elapsed = dblElapsed
End Property

Public Property Get Counter() As Currency
    Counter = curCounter
End Property

Open in new window

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mbizupCommented:
APD_Toronto is asking about potential Front End issues when upsizing to SQL Server:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Microsoft/Development/MS_Access/Q_27437412.html

Can someone who has more recent experience/familiarity with this jump in, please?
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
@aikimark:
So ... that looks cool. What would be a use (and how to) for it.
What do the QueryPerformanceFrequency  and QueryPerformanceCounter LIB's do?

mx
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aikimarkCommented:
They are used to time statements/events/methods/routines that might have an elapsed time that is less than a tick.  These APIs are measuring cycles.

For larger scale events, you can use the Timer() function or the GetTick() API.

QueryPerformanceFrequency is the speed of your CPU clock (think Hz) which normalizes the cycle count.
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:

 I posted this on the alert thread as well, but I thought I'd post it here as well in case some of you were not subscribed to that.

Jim.

-----------------------------
 A thread you might wish to monitor:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web_Development/Miscellaneous/Q_27438942.html

  Asker is giving the service from www.eqldata.com a try for putting an Access DB (un-modified) on the web.  

  A lot of us have been pointing this service out for the past couple of years, but this is the first I've known of anyone trying it first hand.   Results will be interesting.

Jim.
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als315Commented:
If anybody have Access 97, may be you can help with this question:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Microsoft/Development/MS_Access/Q_27425567.html#a37137281
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Nick67Commented:
I was going to write up an interesting little bug I found in my code.
A closer examination showed that
On Error Resume Next
was the bug!

The moral of the story: better remember where you used On Error Resume Next instead of real error handling, and be prepared for the bite-in-the-ass
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:

FYI Department:

  Worked a question recently where the OP wanted vertail lines running through the page of a report.  Standard ideas were tossed out; draw lines in on page, use a group footer and move it down the page, etc.

  OP however came up with something I never knew; you can address and format the entire page of a report in a group header event and then with MoveLayout = False, let the remaining sections continue down the page from the present position.

  Thread is here:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Microsoft/Development/MS_Access/Q_27491949.html

 and he's written up an article on it.

Jim.
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als315Commented:
I have strange problem with crosstab query in this question:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Microsoft/Development/MS_Access/Q_27481252.html
There are 3 sequental queries. In first (qry_HR) is reference to form's field. Query is working fine. Second - union query (qry_HR_Union) also working fine. Third is crosstab query from second and is not working with strange message. You can reproduce it pressing button in form in included file. I can eliminate error if reference to form is moved to function.
Is it Access bug or feature?
testdb-crosstab.mdb
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aikimarkCommented:
@als315

I had hoped that this problem would have been fixed by now.  Try this...create a one-row table and populate it with the value from the form.  Replace the form.control reference with the one-row table reference.
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Dale FyeCommented:
When you nest queries like this, you should always explicitly declare the parameters you are using.  In this case the reference to the combo box.  You can do this by adding the following line to the top of the SQL string of qry_HR.

PARAMETERS [Forms]![frm_Year_Selection]![cbo_Year] Text ( 255 );

But when I run this, no matter which "year" I select, I get the same results, so I assume that you need to do some modifications to the criteria of qry_HR.
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als315Commented:
@aikimark
Thanks. I like function more :). A new Access bug for me. I've tried to convert DB to accdb format and open it form Access 2010 - no success.
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als315Commented:
Thanks, fyed.
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als315Commented:
Sorry, fyed. I've published wrong source question.
This:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Microsoft/Development/MS_Access/Q_27493376.html
is correct. Please, duplicate your comment there.
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
For those of you not following the thread on the www.eqldata.com service.  OP has posted a follow on comment indicating that overall they are quite pleased with the service:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Web_Development/Miscellaneous/Q_27438942.html?cid=748#a37358980

Jim.
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aikimarkCommented:
I thought this was a great answer by vadimrapp1 (simple, elegant)
http:/Q_27531489.html
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
Nice Office developer article on what you can do in A2007 with a DB created in A2010 and what you can't:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/cc907897.aspx

Jim.
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Jim P.Commented:
I still haven't used the 07 or 10 suites much yet. The few times I have -- my time is still about twice what I could/can do with the menus in XP/03 suites.

I might get used to the ribbon some day. But doubling the screen real estate for the same functionality of someone using a net book just doesn't seem to be the path to greatness.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
ditto !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Scott McDaniel (Microsoft Access MVP - EE MVE )Infotrakker SoftwareCommented:
I think it's all in what you get used to doing. It's like anything else that's new - if you don't familiarize yourself with the new landscape, you'll have trouble using it. I used to have the same troubles, but after working in 2010 for a client project I have no trouble getting around in the Ribbon interface, and find some of the features of 2010 to be a very nice addition (like the Nav Pane search feature).

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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<I still haven't used the 07 or 10 suites much yet. The few times I have -- my time is still about twice what I could/can do with the menus in XP/03 suites.>>

 Still using Access 2000/2003 here as well.  Have done nothing to date in A2007/2010.  Just don't see or feel the need and nothing I'm doing for clients requires either.  Both have been a big yawn for me.

 And I really don't like the ribbon; worst interface element I've ever seen or used.  And "backstage" in Office 2010 only made it worse.

  I wish Microsoft would simply admit they made a huge mistake and go back to the old menu style interface.  Of course the actual problem is the number of features that are offered, which is a growing problem.

  As a result, things like the ribbon are needed, and some features which were quite handy have been removed from Office.

  I keep wondering how long feature driven marketing of software products at Microsoft (and in general) is going to go on.  Saw a piece just the other day on TV's and how "smart" they are getting.  Many don't even realize they are getting a smart TV when they buy one.

 Comment from one purchaser "I bought a 'TV', spent forty-five minutes going through seventeen  seperate steps just so I could watch six channels of TV.  I liked my old set better.  All I had to do is plug it in and hook up the cable".

Jim.
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aikimarkCommented:
@Jim

What was removed?

Someone sells an Access add-in that replaces the ribbon with the old menu/toolbar.
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<What was removed?>>

  Little features here and there.  One that comes to mind right off is the ability in a Word doc to right click and start an e-mail message.  Simple feature and loved by users.  It was removed in Office 2007.

<<Someone sells an Access add-in that replaces the ribbon with the old menu/toolbar. >>

  I am aware of it, but haven't tried it.  Ribbon aside, I have no compelling reason at present to use A2007 or 2010.

  I did get excited about triggers, until I found out that they were only available through macros.  The A2010/Sharepoint integration while nice and a step in the right direction towards the web, with it's current limitations it is un-workable.  I'm trying to enrich apps I bring to users, not dumb them down from the limitations in Access that I already live with.

  And a Enterprise license for Sharepoint?  Forget that.  Majority of my clients are in the SMB market.

  Multi-value fields, forget it.  PDF report output?  Been doing it for years and with more control.  Report View and Layout View?  Doesn't execute VBA, so it's basically worthless because any type of custom report won't look or work the same in view vs print or print preview.  

  Streamlined creation of grouping and sorting in reports?  I actually find it slower to use.

  Split forms ARE nice.  Let's see what else..hum Rich Text in memo fields, broken.

  So overall, a lot more negatives for me then positives.  

Jim.
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Dale FyeCommented:
I was forced to move to 2007 several years ago, and after the initial Ribbon Shock, got used to it.  I work in an environment for the US govt (as a contractor) and one of the down sides is that our IT systems are locked down tight, so I was unable to load the dll file to resolve mouse wheel issues.  That alone was worth the switch to 2007 for me.

Agree with Jim that 2007 and SharePoint are still not synched as well as they should be in 2007, have not had an opportunity to use 2010 and SharePoint so I don't know whether that will be any better or not.  

Hate multi-value fields, bad idea designed to make it easier for newbies.

Have actually used Rich Text a couple of times, in a search engine to highlight the selected words, which worked great.
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<Agree with Jim that 2007 and SharePoint are still not synched as well as they should be in 2007, have not had an opportunity to use 2010 and SharePoint so I don't know whether that will be any better or not.  >>

  2010 goes far beyond what 2007 does.  Consider 2007 a pre-alpha attempt.  2010 is like a first release.

<<Have actually used Rich Text a couple of times, in a search engine to highlight the selected words, which worked great. >>

 Wait until the field get's too big.  Once you get beyond 367 bytes, you can no longer edit a record as you got a lock error no matter what you do.  It's basically broken.

Jim.

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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
Well, I do actually agree with Scott overall.  My Ditto was regarding the comment ...
"But doubling the screen real estate for the same functionality of someone using a net book just doesn't seem to be the path to greatness."

Personally, I am not seeing are big advantage of Ribbons over the 'old' menu system (simple and elegant).  But I do admit that ... it will be a LOT easier to port custom Ribbons (menus) into a new/existing db than it previously was (for menu/tool/right click bars), once I start building custom Ribbons. So in the end, maybe that will balance my feelings out.

I've been working with A2010 for quite some time now, especially at work.   Everyone got O2010 last year across the enterprise. Fortunately, I was able to convince IT *not* to 'activate' A2010 at the time - in our group. So, everyone retained A2002/2003. This has allowed me to test apps on my A2010 system. I have activated A2010 on several users systems now, kind of a pseudo beta test.    

However,  IT has now mandated that at ALL users must start using A2010 (for those who use Access) ... 'soon', because IT will be deploying Win 7 circa end of Q2, they are claiming that O2003 will not work on Win 7, which of course is not true. But no matter, it is what it is. Fortunately, this does not mean I have to convert MDBs to ACCDBs, which I have not done and there is no rush or compelling reason to do so at this time.

And JD has plenty of good points about the downsides of new 'features'. Also, I am finding a LOT of subtle little things that flat ass do NOT work (or work the same way) in A2010, whereas they always have in prior versions.  

Just for example, I have a button that executes one line of code, which is a PrintPreview command, which actually does a print preview on a form.  In A2010, it does not work. Nothing happens! No print preview!  Maddening, as are several other similar kinds of things, which I am intending to bring up at the Summit.

mx



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Leigh PurvisDatabase DeveloperCommented:
We seem to be struggling to offer a valid improvement that came with the ACCDB format (i.e. 2007+)?
Image control's ControlSource property.  
Overdue it was.  Even if not a developer who has a burning need for it, it's hard to argue that it's a bad addition.
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Scott McDaniel (Microsoft Access MVP - EE MVE )Infotrakker SoftwareCommented:
< Also, I am finding a LOT of subtle little things that flat ass do NOT work (or work the same way) in A2010, whereas they always have in prior versions.  >

Agreed, but then I think a lot of those little things were things that should not have worked in earlier versions, but were never fixed - like the OpenReport issue, where you could use either the Filter or Where arguments in earlier versions, but if you add a Where value to the Filter param in 2007+ you'll get an error.

But I think we all would agree that the focus of MSFT has always been on the end user and NOT the developer. Nothing wrong with that, of course (end users outnumber us by a huge margin) but just something that we all have to realize. MSFT has never really considered Access to be a development platform, so they're not going to invest overly large amounts of resources to improve that part of the equation.
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Leigh PurvisDatabase DeveloperCommented:
I do think that there used to be a different balance.  Indeed possibly even more skewed towards the developer in some releases.
For example, I can't imagine that many end users are assigning recordsets to forms and list controls.  But that was a huge advancement in 2002/2003.  It also came with the dependency object model, again not user-centric (or massively useful IMO ;-).
Certainly, there were user niceties too and, yes, we still get developer oriented additions (multi-value fields.... <kidding>) such as the 64 bit support in VBA7.  So it's not like we're being hung out to dry.  But equally there's not the same excitement about new releases in the developer community.

Access 15 will carry a huge burden upon its shoulders.
Obviously, it will include further advancement of Web publishing/SharePoint integration.  But what else comes with that will be crucial.  Either pull the developer community back in, or alienate it further.

FWIW, I can't see the Ribbon going anywhere.  It just needs to get better.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"Agreed, but then I think a lot of those little things were things that should not have worked in earlier versions, but were never fixed "
Not in my case - for most of which I am finding. But others, yes.

"(end users outnumber us by a huge margin)"
True.  However, at the end of the day, who do most of them turn to ... :-)

The Ribbon would have *never* been an issue at all ... IF ... Microsoft had just put in that 'switch':
"Would you like to use the new Ribbon paradigm or the 'old', tried and true menu system?"  Click!
Fortunately, for an mdb running in A2010, you can make it look just like it did in <=A2003.

I'm am finding some subtle 'developer features' that appear to be useful, like intellisense appearing in places other than vba code, although the query grid intellisense is quite annoying.  Needs to be an Off/On switch (maybe there is).   I'm sure I/we will find more as I/we continue to work with it.

But really ... the really good news is ... there will be an Access 15 !

mx


 
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Patrick MatthewsCommented:
Re: that damned Ribbon...

For a long time, I resisted the migration to Office 2007 because I did not want to re-learn all of my navigations.  I had those menus down cold, dammit, and learning to navigate the Ribbon just seemed like a waste of time.

According to Microsoft, the rationale behind the Ribbon was that new and inexperienced users would find Office functionality to be much more "discoverable" in the Ribbon than in the menu, and that your intermediate and advanced users will always be able to figure out where stuff is.  I tend to agree with that viewpoint.  I really only preferred the menus because I already knew them.

Now, why not have a "classic" mode, so that people could choose whether to have the Ribbon, or the old menus?  (Bill Gates himself was reported to have suggested that that be built into the product, and he was supposedly annoyed when he was told there would be no "classic" mode.)  My guess: because it was probably hard enough to build a completely new interface, without also having to make sure you could toggle back and forth between interfaces without breaking something else.

Change is never easy, and sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and accept it.  That said, I think that Microsoft made some significant mistakes with the Ribbon:
That there was no way to modify the Ribbon in Office 2007 except by loading custom XML was inexcusable.  Microsoft fixed that in 2010
The "Home" button thing was way too confusing.  The replacement with the File tab in 2010 is better
It is still way, way too easy to lose your connection to the Ribbon object in code

So, it's here to stay.  Best be getting on with it :)
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Jim P.Commented:
My objection is the death of keyboard navigation and shortcuts that has been occurring steadily. This is not just happening in the Office suite but in Windows overall.

An annoying example, to me, is when you are creating users in AD management. If you have to add two users, it really isn't worth scripting. In 2000 you could just select user, hit <F8> to copy and navigate to create the users. Now you either have to use the mouse or hope your keyboard has the <Shortcut Menu> key.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"My objection is the death of keyboard navigation and shortcuts that has been occurring steadily. "
Yes ... for SURE.  And i posted a major issue on the MVP DL, directly specifically to the Access product team and got zero response.  Several other people have customers (MANY) that are getting this same issue. It is easily reproducible also. Has to do with ALT+SomeUnderLinedKey ... NOT working. Period.

Our (rather LARGE) company has made a substantial investment in the Dragon Naturally Speaking voice activation program ... because of the alarming number (and growing) of carpal tunnel incidents ... among ALL ages. Almost all of my apps now are 100 % keyboard driven, and many shortcuts depend on the ALT+ (hot key) to be working. Further, users are writing Dragon scripts for automation ... and Dragon depends heavily on these shortcuts to work!  

It's really a serious problem.  And the is really no clean, simple workaround per se.

mx
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<So, it's here to stay.  Best be getting on with it :) >>

 Or leave Access (and Office) entirely.

Jim.
0
 
Gustav BrockCIOCommented:
> Or leave Access (and Office) entirely.

Yep. Indeed if you have even the smallest interest in developing web or phone apps ...

/gustav
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
Phone Apps? Probably not.
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Nick67Commented:
Fads.  Sigh.  Niches.
I have a Galaxy S II X and a Motorola Xoom.
Color me not impressed.
These are reasonable devices for viewing content on.

They are piss-poor for creating it.

I used to curse at my Blackberry's tiny keys.
I am positively nostalgic for them now.

There is some of the content of the SQL Server backends that my Access apps create that I'd like to deliver to our guys via their phones.
But the phone app is never going to replace the Access front-end.
It'd be nice if the next iteration of infrastructure would not be hyped as a replacement for what we've got, instead of an adjunct to it.

Smartphones.   Superphones.  Tablets.  The Cloud.  Thin Clients.  Grid computing.  SaaS. 3G.  4G
All very nice things.
But they aren't replacing 10 Gbps backbone LAN's with client-server setups.
The PC is being supplemented, not replaced
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:

"I am positively nostalgic for them now."
Droid 4 soon.


"The PC is being supplemented, not replaced"
10-4 and COPY that.  So much marketing BS.

And whereas the Droid Razr MAXX may change the horrible battery life issue of 4G phones ... well, we'll see ...

mx
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Jim P.Commented:
I have successfully RDP'ed from a Win Mobile to a Win Server 2003 and done a reboot. Once.

Preferably never doing that again.
0
 
Dale FyeCommented:
Arghhhhh!!!!!!

Like the MS Ribbon, why to people feel the need to change something that works well?

Anybody like the new interface?

I've got 1" margins of wasted space on both sides of my screen.
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<Like the MS Ribbon, why to people feel the need to change something that works well?>>

  Problem was the old site wasn't working that well....give it some time.

Jim.
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Dale FyeCommented:
Jim,

Jim,

Really?

wasted screen realestate!

questions without topics!

email alerts that simply state "Expert Alert", with no subject or topic.  It used to be that I could screen those email alerts based on the subject, no more, now I have to open every one.

no code window
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Leigh PurvisDatabase DeveloperCommented:
>> Problem was the old site wasn't working that well

Care to elaborate on that Jim?  In what way was it not working well?
As I can't help but feel that MS would say the same thing about the pre-2007 menus. :-p

I have to say that I was trying to hang around EE a little more (as long as there are vaguely interesting questions), and at first I thought this UI might put me off.
But, upon reflection, I figure that if it throws the regulars off their more efficienct game then I am more likely to be able to pounce on the occasional question of interest before it all gets closed up. :-p

(I do like that Closed questions have made a more visible come back though - they used to be one of my favourite feeding grounds for making comments.  Hell, I'd be a Technocrat by now but for those. lol)
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mbizupCommented:
Dale,

The Expert Alert titles I believe have been fixed, so that you can filter on them.

Code blocks are still here

Open in new window


You just have to either select and format text as code...

or manually enter the code tags.

Open in new window

On the plus side - for those of us who answer questions through the zone landing page, neglected questions are being handled differently and are no longer obscurring new questions.  This is a huge improvement.

I'm also finding the new interface to be quite a bit faster.

The layout will take some getting used to as Jim suggested.  I think Joe is probably way ahead of most of us in that respect because he was using the Premium Skin before the new release.

This is similar to the Premium Skin in many respects, but better.
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Gustav BrockCIOCommented:
It doesn't render that well in IE8 but it loads faster.
Chrome is fine.

/gustav
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<Care to elaborate on that Jim?  In what way was it not working well?>>

1.  Slow page load times (EE was slower then 70% of web sites out there).
2.  Inability to implement new changes easily (brittle code base).  Changing anything meant a raft of bugs.
3.  Significant browser incompatibilites.
4.  Constant breakdown of jobs rebuilding statistics.

  and I only have gotten to see part of the picture.

  It's been a long time since EE has gotten an overhaul and the current site was just getting in the way of too many things they wanted to do, like a job board, or a better experience on phone and tablets.

  So before everyone goes off the deep end, give them a few weeks to get it sorted out.  Things like e-mail message formatting are easy fixes and will go a long way in making Expert life liveable again.

Jim.
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Leigh PurvisDatabase DeveloperCommented:
Personally, I'm absolutely willing to let bugs get worked out.   It's just the occasional decision that mystifies.
For example, the code blocks that Miriam mentions are soooo narrow.  
(I know I can open them in another window - but it spoils the flow.)

White space everywhere...  Nor any drop to drink.
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Dale FyeCommented:
Miriam,

OK, figured out how to do the code window, with tags, and insert an image, using the formatting bar.  But they are not nearly as wide when displayed on screen as they used to be.

I guess the thing that frustrates me most is the 2" of wasted screen realestate.  Why would they use fixed width pages?  I'll have to wait until this evening to see what this looks like on my wide screen monitor at home.
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
BTW, don't be shy about stating your feelings here:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Community_Support/Feedback/

and if you find something not working:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Community_Support/EE_Bugs/

Jim.
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Dale FyeCommented:
I guess I never paid too much attention to how much screen space the Expert image next to the comments takes up, but now, having already lost 2" of screen realestate, that extra 3/4" seems to make a significant difference.

I also don't care for the HTML format of the email alert messages.  I do most of my EE work while browsing my email via a web interface, and there appears to be a lot of blank space at the top of the message, so I have to scroll down quite a ways to even read the question.
0
 
Dale FyeCommented:
Jim,

Thanks for those links.  I've never been accused of being shy.

Dale

 ;-)
0
 
als315Commented:
My 5 cents:
I don't see more status of question in Participated questions (I'm very often started from this point) and don't know more who last had commented question
0
 
Dale FyeCommented:
On the up side, it does appear to render much quicker!

;-)

Dale
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GRayLCommented:
I'm running Firefox under XP Pro looking at a 22 inch Acer screen, and starting at the post http:#37530488 the posts staring jamming up,  not completely separated, big black rectangles across the page broken up by the comment box.  It is a real mess.  Did I miss out on setting any controls, or something?
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
Ray,

<<I'm running Firefox under XP Pro looking at a 22 inch Acer screen, and starting at the post http:#37530488 the posts staring jamming up,  not completely separated, big black rectangles across the page broken up by the comment box.  It is a real mess.  Did I miss out on setting any controls, or something?>>

  Please submit as a bug report at:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Community_Support/EE_Bugs/

Giving OS, browser and version, and a screenshot if possible.

Jim.
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Nick67Commented:
I am looking at the site on a 22" monitor.
The column is of text is just 7" wide with 4" of whitespace on the left and 7" of whitespace on the right.

PLEASE for goodness sake make the background something other than white!
This is like starting at a lightbulb!
0
 
Dale FyeCommented:
As JD mentioned above, post this to the Feedback section.
0
 
Dale FyeCommented:
Is anyone else experiencing difficulties embedding hyperlinks behind text?
0
 
GRayLCommented:
The hyperlink for my last post should have been http:#a37530488
0
 
DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"Anybody like the new interface?"
Jim/Miriam ... can we start a new Discussion Tread for V10 ... ?

Whereas I will give it some time, at the moment it seems analogous as to what Microsoft did with the Ribbon, and I've previous made my thoughts clear on that.

I never had an issue with page loads, and I don't see that this UI runs any faster. But, everything I have runs fast anyway, including my Verizon Wireless card I have in this laptop.

I went through the v10 UI last night ... and at this point, all I can say is <sigh> ... I'm glad I made Savant *before* v10 was deployed!   There is waaaaay too much white space everywhere.  The email Alerts are waaaaay  too big (see images).

Not to mention there are (again) tab stops at the Attach File & 3 Share On check boxes (maddening). They fixed that once, but now it's back. So, instead of tabbing from 'here' (in this text box) directly to Preview, I have to tab four additional times to get to Preview>>Submit.

I've never liked the code window and shudder every time someone posts code snippets in it. It's *much* hard to read code in the code window.  Did they add word wrap yet ?

" I think Joe is probably way ahead of most of us in that respect because he was using the Premium Skin before the new release."
That is certainly true. Oddly enough, this new UI reminds me more of the Expert Skin (I know, huh?)

WOW ... I just notice it is *not* showing my images in Preview mode (as it did before).  Showing images in preview is a *must* - to be sure you've attached what you think you did!

Anyway, at this point ... and reserving the right to change my mind later ... it appears that ... they took a perfectly good UI - from a functional standpoint - and did the 'Ribbon Thing' with it (in a manner of speaking).
EEV10-7.GIF
EEV10-6.GIF
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
It's STILL now showing the Images after Submitting ...  no way.  That was one of the BEST features ever implemented.

What is up with that?  I'm sure your gonna say it's because of 'performance' ...

mx
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<Jim/Miriam ... can we start a new Discussion Tread for V10 ... ?>>

  We certainly can, but anything you want to offer (or others) will have more direct input if you post in the feedback TA.  Feedback, Bugs, and Input are being closely monitored by both Badgers and EE folks unlike anything we would do here.

<<I never had an issue with page loads, and I don't see that this UI runs any faster. But, everything I have runs fast anyway, including my Verizon Wireless card I have in this laptop.>>

  Depends on what your running, connection, and where you are.  I still use Win XP on my main machine with IE8.0 and although I have a 25MB up/down fibre connection, this discussion thread often would take 20 - 30 seconds to load, and 15 - 20 to come back after posting a comment.  Now it's taking only a couple  seconds, so I've seen a vast improvement.

<<I went through the v10 UI last night ... and at this point, all I can say is <sigh> ... I'm glad I made Savant *before* v10 was deployed!   There is waaaaay too much white space everywhere.  The email Alerts are waaaaay  too big (see images).>>

 Already have been addressed and changes will be in the next push.

<<I've never liked the code window and shudder every time someone posts code snippets in it. It's *much* hard to read code in the code window.  Did they add word wrap yet ?>>

 Don't believe so.

<<It's STILL now showing the Images after Submitting ...  no way.  That was one of the BEST features ever implemented.

What is up with that?  I'm sure your gonna say it's because of 'performance' ...>>

  Did you link or embed?  I'll have to double check, but I've seen other posts where images to appear.  Might be a bug or just the way your doing it.  I'll try in a minute.

  As I've said, make your feelings known in the support TA's and give them a couple of weeks to sort things out.

Jim.
0
 
Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
Test of image:

screenshot
0
 
Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<I'll try in a minute.>>

 Worked fine here preview and post.  I used the Insert Image Button (last one in the post comment toolbar).

 May be a browser issue.  Using IE8 here.

Jim.
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Dale FyeCommented:
Joe,

Instead of adding the image as a file, click the image icon on the toolbar, it will show up then, although the one I uploaded earlier was about 3 times the size of the image I actually copied.

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Community_Support/EE_Bugs/Q_27564855.html#a37531158
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
Image test ... ok ... that resolves that.  Just a different approach ... whew! thx.

Yes, I will certainly post in feedback and bug area.

Inbox - before V10
Inbox - after V10
0
 
Jim P.Commented:
Worked fine here preview and post.  I used the Insert Image Button (last one in the post comment toolbar).


I've been doing it as attach file and then Embed.
0
 
Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<< Already have been addressed and changes will be in the next push.>>

 Just to clairify; the e-mails have.  As for the white space, I think you'll see some movement there as well given the number of comments they've already received, but it might not be
as quick as the e-mail changes.

 We'll have to wait and see.  One of the BIG benefits of the new site is the ability to roll out changes quickly and having a CMS (Content Management System) behind it.

 Also on the speed issue, don't forget with being in CA, round trips back to the EE servers for you is almost painless.  For someone like me on the east coast, or even worse in Europe, round trips to the servers are expensive.  In fact I'm sure reduction of those (which EE has been chided for in the past along with having "heavy" pages) is where I got my pickup.

 Considering the scope of the overall task, I think they've done a bang up job.  With some fine tuning in the weeks to follow I think we'll all be happy for the most part.

Jim.
0
 
aikimarkCommented:
(bug) Note: if you have zoomed your browser window, some links, including MONITOR, will be shoved off the screen and no scroll bar will appear.
0
 
DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
" One of the BIG benefits of the new site is the ability to roll out changes quickly and having a CMS (Content Management System) behind it."
Sure, but at what expense ... ?

" Also on the speed issue, don't forget with being in CA, round trips back to the EE servers for you is almost painless."
Good point.  At home, my DSL is only just under 3Mbits ... but page rendering was generally FAST.  I'm hoping to cut a deal with Verizon to get 7Mbits ... since FIOS is STILL NOT available in my area <sigh>

What is the purpose of ... when you tab out of THIS box, all the text in THIS box gets grayed out, making it difficult to see ?

mx
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
(see image) ... this is REALLY silly.  Please ... get them to lose the silly rankings that are not real. Yes, sure ... based on points for the 'year', C1 is a guru and I am a master, and so on. There is no point to showing this here, and it's EXTREMELY misleading.  I didn't dedicate almost 5 years ... only to be shown as a 'Master' at this point!

mx

bogus rankings ...
0
 
DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"if you have zoomed your browser window,"
I've done the opposite ... Zoomed Out ... to in a pseudo manner shrink the white space.

mx
0
 
Dale FyeCommented:
Joe,

I've already reported the bad ranks in the Top XXX Experts list, but if you want to pile on, it is in the bug zone.
0
 
Dale FyeCommented:
And for those of us that are doing freelance work, they have removed the "Hire Me" button from the profile, in favor of:

http://careers.experts-exchange.com/
0
 
Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<What is the purpose of ... when you tab out of THIS box, all the text in THIS box gets grayed out, making it difficult to see ?>>

  Got me; bugs the heck out of me to as does the whole light coloring scheme.  Everything still seems washed out to me, although it's far better then it was.  Like Ray, I'd still like to see a darker background though.

Jim.
0
 
Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
<<And for those of us that are doing freelance work, they have removed the "Hire Me" button from the profile, in favor of:

http://careers.experts-exchange.com/
>>

  I'm not happy about that either.  The job board isn't quite what I thought it would be.  Thought it was going to be both sides of the fence; people wanting to hire and people wanting to be hired.

Jim.
0
 
DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
Wash out .... yes, exactly.

Jim ... let's just start a V10 'Discussion thread' .... for ... 'discussion purposes' (or venting, lol) ... wherein we may not necessarily yet - want to report something as a bug and/or issue and/or something we don't like ...

mx
0
 
DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
I have gotten 3 side jobs from the Hire Me button, and turned down 4 more.  So, not happy bout that.  

mx
0
 
Dale FyeCommented:
I posted the Hire Me button issue in the Feedback zone, you guys might want to pile on that thread as well.

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Community_Support/Feedback/Q_27565547.html
0
 
Nick67Commented:
@mx
I personally liked the code window.
I knew that I could get a faithful copy and paste of just code--and since I used a lot of code from here, that was important.
It was also nice that you could keep your comments in the post separate from the comments in the code.
We'll see how it goes
0
 
DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
IF ... the code window had word wrap, that would make ALL the difference. Cannot believe there is no word wrap.

'Public' ... logged and noted ... it's just a discussion.

OK ... on the the new V10 thread ... see you there ...

mx
0
 
Nick67Commented:
@netminder
<the development boss threatened me with black, or even a nice shade of gray.>
Not certain if that means you like this bright, white, we're-going-for-the-near-death-experience color scheme or not.

But it is bringing my eyes near-to-death
0
 
DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
"Plus I absolutely hated the Premium skin."
I absolutely LOVED the Premium Skin ... a big part of the overall cosmetic appeal of the previous site format.

Also, you *will* eliminate the useless white space. In this case, as in many others, Less Is More.

mx
0
 
Nick67Commented:
A decent mobile experience is coming, I hope.  The site is barely usable on Galaxy S II X and won't load on the Xoom at all
0
 
Nick67Commented:
<Also, you *will* eliminate the useless white space>
That would be nice but is not necessarily required
You will have to make the 'white space' much less white.

I'm not kidding about that.  I cannot and will not be looking at this much white for long periods of time.  It's hard on the eyes and brain.

<the only thing worse came later, when the CEO of the company insisted on doing his own television commercials.>
Maybe...But Wendy's shareholders couldn't bring Dave Thomas back from the grave.  So his daughter does the commercials now after a bunch of years of floundering advertisements :)
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Dale FyeCommented:
how do we get through to them?

Anybody else wonder when <name removed> is going to get a clue?

I've been answering his questions about bad formatting of DSUM criteria strings for almost two months (and I know that joe, rey, jim, and jeff have been in on answering a bunch of those as well).  I mean, at some point, you'd think the guy would figure this out.
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aikimarkCommented:
Sometimes a little confrontation gets results.  When I encounter such questions, I go back through the OP's history and paste a link to a question where I not only answered the question, but either explained the parameters or told him to look at the (linked) MS documentation.  I ask where my explanation or the documentation failed to educate him on the use of the X function.

That usually starts a conversation about the function of EE (not rent-a-coder) and the volunteer nature of the EE experts.
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mbizupCommented:
Another angle is that if a line of questioning bugs you, you are under no obligation to answer those questions.

This member is not asking us to build his projects for him, but does have the same recurring syntactical issues.

To his credit, his posts all show a (failed) attempt at doing things himself.

My impression is that he is frequently under very tight time constraints and developing Access databases is not his primary role.  He clearly *tries* but may not have a lot of time to spend on it.
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Dale FyeCommented:
Miriam,

I'm sure it doesn't help that there are at least 5 different ways that I can think of to skin that particular cat, and we each have our favorite, and he has seen them all.  

I want to help him UNDERSTAND so badly.  For the first month or so, I did my best to explain why he should do what we all have been recommending, but he still didn't get it, so I started just making the modifications and posting the answer to the question.

I feel like a frustrated teacher, who is trying their hardest to get a student to grasp a concept rather than just teaching them the answer, or the specific method.  But no matter how hard I try, the subject matter is just over his head.
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aikimarkCommented:
@fyed

do you think the member is a student or in a corporate setting?
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Dale FyeCommented:
You know, I generally think about that before I blindly answer a question.  he/she has been working on the same general problem area for a couple of months, same database, all the way down to the same fields, so I tend to doubt he/she is a student.

As Miriam suggested, he tries, but just doesn't grasp the concept of wrapping text in quotes and how to do that inside of a longer string.  She may also be correct in assuming that they have no database experience at all and have been handed a project to accomplish, in addition to the rest of their work.

This is one of those times where I wish, like with my grandson, I could just pull a chair up to him, and sit there with a piece of paper and help him understand.  Problem is that he seems to be so focused on getting the answer to his immediate problem, that he really won't take any constructive advice on how to understand the nature of the problem and the solution.

Dale
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aikimarkCommented:
that's when I put on my software instructor hat.  If the OP pushes back and states that he is only interested in the solution, I usually state that mentoring is what I'm offering and its benefits.  If he isn't interested in learning, I politely say "goodbye" and stop monitoring the question.
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Nick67Commented:
Looking at who <name removed> is and his questions, I think he is coming from an Excel background and may be a product of "Look ma, no code!"

You can create some killer ugly Excel formulas--and if you are used to that--not break a sweat about trying to debug them when deciding to use monstrosities as control sources.

I think the only thing that may break him out is when all those Domain aggregates make something he wants to run very sssssllllllooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww and then he'll figure out why nobody would do stuff that way.

Long ago I quit banging my head on the Expression editor and either built a query or built a function to do anything that complex.  You can comment a function so when you come back to it you can remember what the h#ll you were thinking.

But then, I didn't have years and years of considering gnarly Excel cell formulas as child's play to unlearn.

To a man that owns a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Of course, I cut a 2 x 6 in half with a hammer once--so that approach can be workable, just not pretty.
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Dale FyeCommented:
Mark,

Not willing to say he has "pushed back", 'cause I've never really offered to thoroughly explain.  Maybe that's the approach I'll take with his next post, or if he doesn't get his latest problem solved overnight, maybe I'll take up that gauntlet tomorrow morning.

Now, back to work.
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mbizupCommented:
Dale,

<<
I'm sure it doesn't help that there are at least 5 different ways that I can think of to skin that particular cat, and we each have our favorite, and he has seen them all.  
>>

That's one of the really neat things about EE from my persprctive, but I'd agree that in his case it is confusing matters.  A lot of his posts have unusual and non-functional mixes of techniques that he tries to piece together from different threads.


<<
I want to help him UNDERSTAND so badly
>>
I can understand that, and also really enjoy teaching through my posts here.  But I also think it is important to recognize when that is not working or even wanted... or worse, when the desire to explain things is turning into frustration (which has a way of sneaking into posts in counter-productive ways) ... and to recognize when to ease up.
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mbizupCommented:
<<the subject matter is just over his head.>>

Thats entirely possible, or he may just not have the time/focus.

I think you and I are in similar fields of work.

This guy's posts remind me a little of Engineers I have worked with who never really grasped basic writing skills despite years of education.  But they sure can code :-)

For whatever reason they have legitimate trouble with "syntax" in a slightly different form.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
Are we referring to Right(OP,2) = 13 ?

mx
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Dale FyeCommented:
Joe,

Yes.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
He, and a few others are using EE for free Tech Support. But hey, no big deal.

mx
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aikimarkCommented:
@mx

Is it possible that the OP is sharing the EE account?  Maybe no learning is taking place because a different person is submitting questions.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
I don't think so in this case.  It's a guy back east who plays in a band and we exchanged a couple of emails as I recall ... probably more than a year ago.
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Nick67Commented:
<<This guy's posts remind me a little of Engineers I have worked with who never really grasped basic writing skills despite years of education.  But they sure can code :-)  >>

That's funny!

My mechanical engineer can speak well, can't write an English paragraph to save his life, is unable to comprehend the fundamentals of any kind of financial reckoning and worst of all, he cannot code
If Form1!Page1!Text1.Value <> Form1!Page2!Combo63.Value then
     Form4!Page3!Combo22.Value = "FUBAR"
End If

He has one Access app that has three different backends in use at the same time with this kind of lovely syntax.  There are standing orders that I do not have to touch anything he has coded.

But he can do wicked things with Excel--that they teach very well in the Engineering faculty.  Of course, when he creates files that need to print -- on 11 x 17 paper no less -- in 7 pt Arial font, we curse that too
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Nick67Commented:
@fyed

We'll see if Right(OP,2) = 13 will bite.
What he's doing is a workable, but retarded way of dragging out the values he wants.
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Dale FyeCommented:
Nick,

Based on last nights discussions, I did post a note in one of his other active questions asking if he would like to strike up a conversation about the various techniques for writing criteria strings (not even a nibble yet).

In his latest question (different results on report) I would agree that using the domain aggregate functions would generally cause a significant increase in the run-time of the report.  Although without actually seeing the query that the report is based upon, we have no way of knowing how many times that line of code would have to be evaluated.

I failed to pickup on the Print event, glad that you caught and mentioned that as well.
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GRayLCommented:
miriam:  Re:  your post at http:#a37564476  -  I too am an engineer - please don't beat us all with the same stick ;-)
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mbizupCommented:
Ray,

Lol!  That was not the intent.

I'm an engineer too :-)
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aikimarkCommented:
The CEO of one of my companies told me a story after I had to correct some code he submitted to the application code base.  When he was in electrical engineering school, he took a class on C programming.  A guest instructor, walking around with the regular teacher to look at the code they were developing, remarked about the (CEO's) code "I guess you write Fortran in any language."

After seeing my correction/rewrite, the CEO hasn't tried to contribute any more code.
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Nick67Commented:
<grin>
The running joke is that after passing second year dynamics, the engineer's brain is full.
So, they take a big needle and suck out the parts not related to engineering, so the engineering part has room to grow.  The resulting impairment of the abilities everyone else takes for granted is somewhat random--although written English skills usually take a hit.
</grin>
The University of Alberta used to require engineers to take a specific English course not open to non-Engineering students.  The focus--writing legible, grammatically correct and correctly spelled english sentences and paragraphs.  They may have gotten away from that again--because our P. Eng cannot compose to save his life.
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DatabaseMX (Joe Anderson - Microsoft MVP, Access and Data Platform)Commented:
BSEE .... yep!
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GRayLCommented:
C'mon Nick, U of  is my alma mater - albeit a few years ago - 1963.
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GRayLCommented:
In '62 they managed to get an IBM 1670 (??) and in 63' 4th year MechEng were allowed to dabble in Fortran 4 - all punch cards which had to be pre-compiled.  What a labor of love!  Needless to say, my forte was a Sun Hemi slide rule which I still have.
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Nick67Commented:
Went to U of A from '85 to '91
Minitab and Fortran on the terminals.
Had to traipse over to printing servicies to pick up your output.

A really fine-grained linear optimization run would produce 200 pages of output and chew up all your allotted shared processor time if you were a bonehead--and yes, English 210 was a full year mandatory English requirment open only to students in the engineering faculty and the entire course of study was strictly written composition.
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Jim Dettman (Microsoft MVP/ EE MVE)PresidentAuthor Commented:
Time to close this one out.  New thread is here:

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Microsoft/Development/MS_Access/Q_27592370.html

As always, thanks for your participation!

Jim Dettman
MS Access Topic Advisor
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