Higher Education
"Higher education is not luxury, it's an economic imperative that every family in America should be able to afford."
President Obama
Is it?
President Obama
Is it?
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AnthonyRusso,
"But if someone does, lack of money to afford to go is the problem."
How is it a problem? Did they cancel the Pell grant? Are they no longer offering student loans?
It's the same political filgercarb as the medical insurance stuff. The policies and procedures are there, but politicians cry out that the poor don't have access (even though they do) to get the votes.
"But if someone does, lack of money to afford to go is the problem."
How is it a problem? Did they cancel the Pell grant? Are they no longer offering student loans?
It's the same political filgercarb as the medical insurance stuff. The policies and procedures are there, but politicians cry out that the poor don't have access (even though they do) to get the votes.
Even with the loans Clif, if you graduate and you owe $100,000 and can't find a job paying more than $7.50 an hour, although you've gone to school, you really still can't afford it.
If you go to college and then, when you get out, you can only make $7.50, your college did not teach very well.
But besides that, who said a college education costs $100,000? You might have a right to a college education (that's debatable in itself), but no one says you have a right to a college education at Harvard. Spend a couple of years at a community college. You'll save $90,000 right there.
But besides that, who said a college education costs $100,000? You might have a right to a college education (that's debatable in itself), but no one says you have a right to a college education at Harvard. Spend a couple of years at a community college. You'll save $90,000 right there.
Those are some of the problems the President is talking about, and trying to address:
1). The cost of tuition is going through the roof - $100,000 != Harvard Diploma.
2). The lack of real, paying jobs for graduates.
My son is going to community college right now, and I can assure you, your $10K estimate is off.
1). The cost of tuition is going through the roof - $100,000 != Harvard Diploma.
2). The lack of real, paying jobs for graduates.
My son is going to community college right now, and I can assure you, your $10K estimate is off.
>>Spend a couple of years at a community college. You'll save $90,000 right there.
And you will come out with an Associates Degree. Not a Bachelors or better. So there is a limit there.
>>How is it a problem? Did they cancel the Pell grant? Are they no longer offering student loans?
These will help you in a community college but universities require more money than you get here. Or way more loans.
>>Higher education is not limited to college. It includes technical schools where people can be certified to work in a trade, electrical, welding, computers, construction, etc.
Agree. There is so much more you can do than just follow the 4-year college path.
>>Do you want to live in an educated or uneducated society?
The examples you give are generally things people should learn in high school, not college. Unfortunately the mass public is equivalent to a 5th grader level of education (hence the show). Most can read and write and do simple arithmetic, plus whatever their day-to-day is, but beyond that in understanding science, politics, advanced math, history in context besides facts, extra reading, those things are out of reach to most.
>>I like living in a country where most people can read.
So this would be an investment into pre-college education.
>>I think education is one of the more important things a government can supply to its populace. The more education, the better.
Agree.
>>If every person could afford to go on to college, who is going to staff our factories?
In regards to this, people complain so much that manufacturing is leaving the USA and going over seas. How many people have kids and hope they grow up to work in a factory?
And you will come out with an Associates Degree. Not a Bachelors or better. So there is a limit there.
>>How is it a problem? Did they cancel the Pell grant? Are they no longer offering student loans?
These will help you in a community college but universities require more money than you get here. Or way more loans.
>>Higher education is not limited to college. It includes technical schools where people can be certified to work in a trade, electrical, welding, computers, construction, etc.
Agree. There is so much more you can do than just follow the 4-year college path.
>>Do you want to live in an educated or uneducated society?
The examples you give are generally things people should learn in high school, not college. Unfortunately the mass public is equivalent to a 5th grader level of education (hence the show). Most can read and write and do simple arithmetic, plus whatever their day-to-day is, but beyond that in understanding science, politics, advanced math, history in context besides facts, extra reading, those things are out of reach to most.
>>I like living in a country where most people can read.
So this would be an investment into pre-college education.
>>I think education is one of the more important things a government can supply to its populace. The more education, the better.
Agree.
>>If every person could afford to go on to college, who is going to staff our factories?
In regards to this, people complain so much that manufacturing is leaving the USA and going over seas. How many people have kids and hope they grow up to work in a factory?
beetos,
"Those are some of the problems the President is talking about, and trying to address:"
I agree the cost of a higher education is ridiculous. However the answer is not to have the government take money from some people at gun point to pay for it. The answer is to try and find out why it's so high and reduce it.
As for a lack of "real, paying jobs for graduates", I don't see how the president's statement addresses that in any way, shape or form.
"My son is going to community college right now, and I can assure you, your $10K estimate is off."
You're right. Acording to CollegeBoard.com, the cost of a two-year comminuty college is more like $2,963.
Perhaps your son is scamming you?
"Those are some of the problems the President is talking about, and trying to address:"
I agree the cost of a higher education is ridiculous. However the answer is not to have the government take money from some people at gun point to pay for it. The answer is to try and find out why it's so high and reduce it.
As for a lack of "real, paying jobs for graduates", I don't see how the president's statement addresses that in any way, shape or form.
"My son is going to community college right now, and I can assure you, your $10K estimate is off."
You're right. Acording to CollegeBoard.com, the cost of a two-year comminuty college is more like $2,963.
Perhaps your son is scamming you?
AnthonyRusso
"And you will come out with an Associates Degree. Not a Bachelors or better. So there is a limit there."
And a bachelor's is not a doctorate, so there's a limitation there too.
"These will help you in a community college but universities require more money than you get here. Or way more loans."
Yes, but if you start with two years at community, you save two years at the university.
"How many people have kids and hope they grow up to work in a factory?"
And yet that was exactly what Mr. Obama was stumping for in Iowa last week.
"And you will come out with an Associates Degree. Not a Bachelors or better. So there is a limit there."
And a bachelor's is not a doctorate, so there's a limitation there too.
"These will help you in a community college but universities require more money than you get here. Or way more loans."
Yes, but if you start with two years at community, you save two years at the university.
"How many people have kids and hope they grow up to work in a factory?"
And yet that was exactly what Mr. Obama was stumping for in Iowa last week.
"However the answer is not to have the government take money from some people at gun point to pay for it. The answer is to try and find out why it's so high and reduce it."
I didn't see anything in the statement in question about that. Sounds like a right wing knee jerk reaction to the President saying anything.
"I don't see how the president's statement addresses that in any way, shape or form."
He's continually touting higher education to advance our technology and create these kind of industries which require educated workers, thus advancing the nation as a whole.
"You're right. Acording to CollegeBoard.com, the cost of a two-year comminuty college is more like $2,963."
That's an average which includes states like California that have structured their education system to allow residents to attend for extremely low rates, although that's also changing and state tuition, even at Community colleges is skyrocketing. In NJ, $2,963 covers about 1 semester not including books.
"Perhaps your son is scamming you?"
He's definitely not, and I'm going to assume you're joking because otherwise I would be offended by your insinuations.
I didn't see anything in the statement in question about that. Sounds like a right wing knee jerk reaction to the President saying anything.
"I don't see how the president's statement addresses that in any way, shape or form."
He's continually touting higher education to advance our technology and create these kind of industries which require educated workers, thus advancing the nation as a whole.
"You're right. Acording to CollegeBoard.com, the cost of a two-year comminuty college is more like $2,963."
That's an average which includes states like California that have structured their education system to allow residents to attend for extremely low rates, although that's also changing and state tuition, even at Community colleges is skyrocketing. In NJ, $2,963 covers about 1 semester not including books.
"Perhaps your son is scamming you?"
He's definitely not, and I'm going to assume you're joking because otherwise I would be offended by your insinuations.
beetos,
"I didn't see anything in the statement in question about that. Sounds like a right wing knee jerk reaction to the President saying anything."
So are you suggesting that Mr. Obama made that statement without wanting to proffer a solution? Did he suggest a solution in the context of that statement?
"He's continually touting higher education to advance our technology and create these kind of industries which require educated workers, thus advancing the nation as a whole."
All politicians tout higher education. But apparently you are allowed to read into a statement but I am not?
So, what are you paying for community college? Your post (#37520204) seemed to suggest it was far above the $10,000 I suggested off the top of my head.
You can be offended or not for all the care I have. Son's scam fathers, especially when it comes to college (sure, he needs that $100 for an emergency text book and not the beer bash that his friends are going to). Unless you are God, your son is just as human as everyone else's is. If you believe he's not, you are only lying to yourself.
"I didn't see anything in the statement in question about that. Sounds like a right wing knee jerk reaction to the President saying anything."
So are you suggesting that Mr. Obama made that statement without wanting to proffer a solution? Did he suggest a solution in the context of that statement?
"He's continually touting higher education to advance our technology and create these kind of industries which require educated workers, thus advancing the nation as a whole."
All politicians tout higher education. But apparently you are allowed to read into a statement but I am not?
So, what are you paying for community college? Your post (#37520204) seemed to suggest it was far above the $10,000 I suggested off the top of my head.
You can be offended or not for all the care I have. Son's scam fathers, especially when it comes to college (sure, he needs that $100 for an emergency text book and not the beer bash that his friends are going to). Unless you are God, your son is just as human as everyone else's is. If you believe he's not, you are only lying to yourself.
"So are you suggesting that Mr. Obama made that statement without wanting to proffer a solution? Did he suggest a solution in the context of that statement?"
I'm only saying that I hadn't heard the part about taking my money at gunpoint, which seems to be a right wing battle cry we hear far too often. I'm assuming it means that maybe Obama suggested spending money on education?
"All politicians tout higher education. But apparently you are allowed to read into a statement but I am not?"
Obama removed the middleman, making it easier and cheaper for students to get loans. Still, the skyrocketing price of education is prohibitive for a lot of potential students.
"So, what are you paying for community college? " For 2 years of tuition only it's going to be close to $25K. Your suggestion is our reality - he can save some money by going 2 years community, and then get his bachelors from a better college, but even IF they charged the same exact price ( which they don't), we're looking at $50K. Not including books or anything else.
"
You can be offended or not for all the care I have. Son's scam fathers, especially when it comes to college (sure, he needs that $100 for an emergency text book and not the beer bash that his friends are going to). Unless you are God, your son is just as human as everyone else's is. If you believe he's not, you are only lying to yourself."
Great - I give you the benefit of the doubt, and you choose to be an asshole. At least now I know what I'm dealing with. Thanks for confirming that.
I'm only saying that I hadn't heard the part about taking my money at gunpoint, which seems to be a right wing battle cry we hear far too often. I'm assuming it means that maybe Obama suggested spending money on education?
"All politicians tout higher education. But apparently you are allowed to read into a statement but I am not?"
Obama removed the middleman, making it easier and cheaper for students to get loans. Still, the skyrocketing price of education is prohibitive for a lot of potential students.
"So, what are you paying for community college? " For 2 years of tuition only it's going to be close to $25K. Your suggestion is our reality - he can save some money by going 2 years community, and then get his bachelors from a better college, but even IF they charged the same exact price ( which they don't), we're looking at $50K. Not including books or anything else.
"
You can be offended or not for all the care I have. Son's scam fathers, especially when it comes to college (sure, he needs that $100 for an emergency text book and not the beer bash that his friends are going to). Unless you are God, your son is just as human as everyone else's is. If you believe he's not, you are only lying to yourself."
Great - I give you the benefit of the doubt, and you choose to be an asshole. At least now I know what I'm dealing with. Thanks for confirming that.
beetos,
"I'm only saying that I hadn't heard the part about taking my money at gunpoint, which seems to be a right wing battle cry we hear far too often."
It means raising taxes on "the rich". But then you knew that.
"Still, the skyrocketing price of education is prohibitive for a lot of potential students."
So, what does he propose to do about it?
"For 2 years of tuition only it's going to be close to $25K."
Wow, ten times the national average? That must be some classy community college!
"Thanks for confirming that."
You're welcome. You treat me like one, I will be one.
"I'm only saying that I hadn't heard the part about taking my money at gunpoint, which seems to be a right wing battle cry we hear far too often."
It means raising taxes on "the rich". But then you knew that.
"Still, the skyrocketing price of education is prohibitive for a lot of potential students."
So, what does he propose to do about it?
"For 2 years of tuition only it's going to be close to $25K."
Wow, ten times the national average? That must be some classy community college!
"Thanks for confirming that."
You're welcome. You treat me like one, I will be one.
Clif,
On one hand you're telling me the President is going to use taxes to pay for higher education, complete with the obligatory conservative red meat "taking our money at gunpoint". On the other hand, you're using community colleges as an example of why that isn't necessary. Ironically, the reason Community college is so much more affordable, is because the gov't is "taking your money at gunpoint" to pay for it.
I would greatly prefer the government support education in this country than a lot of other things that are supported. I don't know how or why teachers and college students have suddenly become the villains holding our country back.
Now, you insulted my son calling him a scammer, and I pointed out that I found that offensive. You then doubled down on that calling him not only a scammer, but a liar and a drunk. I did not treat you like an asshole, in fact I treated you with undue respect. You act like one, you'll be treated like one, it's not the other way around.
On one hand you're telling me the President is going to use taxes to pay for higher education, complete with the obligatory conservative red meat "taking our money at gunpoint". On the other hand, you're using community colleges as an example of why that isn't necessary. Ironically, the reason Community college is so much more affordable, is because the gov't is "taking your money at gunpoint" to pay for it.
I would greatly prefer the government support education in this country than a lot of other things that are supported. I don't know how or why teachers and college students have suddenly become the villains holding our country back.
Now, you insulted my son calling him a scammer, and I pointed out that I found that offensive. You then doubled down on that calling him not only a scammer, but a liar and a drunk. I did not treat you like an asshole, in fact I treated you with undue respect. You act like one, you'll be treated like one, it's not the other way around.
>>"I'm only saying that I hadn't heard the part about taking my money at gunpoint, which seems to be a right wing battle cry we hear far too often."
>>It means raising taxes on "the rich". But then you knew that.
During the SOTU the message the president gave was about colleges reeling in the cost of their tuition or the colleges wont get subsidies as much, which the conservatives seem to favor. There was no mention about the people getting money to go to college.
>>"Still, the skyrocketing price of education is prohibitive for a lot of potential students."
So, what does he propose to do about it?
See above.
>>"For 2 years of tuition only it's going to be close to $25K."
Wow, ten times the national average? That must be some classy community college!
25K is higher than I have ever seen for 2 years of community college, but 3K per year is a lot lower too within the last 15 years or so. Currently prices I see are about 5K per year for tuition.
>>And a bachelor's is not a doctorate, so there's a limitation there too.
The majority of jobs of an upper-middle class income request a Bachelors, not a Doctorate, and good luck with an Associates.
>>Yes, but if you start with two years at community, you save two years at the university.
Right but half a year at that University level is more than 2 years at the Community level.
>>"How many people have kids and hope they grow up to work in a factory?"
>>And yet that was exactly what Mr. Obama was stumping for in Iowa last week.
That's the majority of the voting base in the area he was talking to. Usual political shoveling of what they want to hear. Those people were worried about their jobs NOW. I would assume most of them are hoping their kids don't work in the factory like they are.
>>It means raising taxes on "the rich". But then you knew that.
During the SOTU the message the president gave was about colleges reeling in the cost of their tuition or the colleges wont get subsidies as much, which the conservatives seem to favor. There was no mention about the people getting money to go to college.
>>"Still, the skyrocketing price of education is prohibitive for a lot of potential students."
So, what does he propose to do about it?
See above.
>>"For 2 years of tuition only it's going to be close to $25K."
Wow, ten times the national average? That must be some classy community college!
25K is higher than I have ever seen for 2 years of community college, but 3K per year is a lot lower too within the last 15 years or so. Currently prices I see are about 5K per year for tuition.
>>And a bachelor's is not a doctorate, so there's a limitation there too.
The majority of jobs of an upper-middle class income request a Bachelors, not a Doctorate, and good luck with an Associates.
>>Yes, but if you start with two years at community, you save two years at the university.
Right but half a year at that University level is more than 2 years at the Community level.
>>"How many people have kids and hope they grow up to work in a factory?"
>>And yet that was exactly what Mr. Obama was stumping for in Iowa last week.
That's the majority of the voting base in the area he was talking to. Usual political shoveling of what they want to hear. Those people were worried about their jobs NOW. I would assume most of them are hoping their kids don't work in the factory like they are.
ASKER
We are moving away from the main question. Why should in a Capitalist Society would higher education be something that everyone can afford?
If the cost of education is too prohibitive, we will end up with an uneducated "capatalist society".
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beetos,
"Ironically, the reason Community college is so much more affordable, is because the gov't is "taking your money at gunpoint" to pay for it."
Yes, and now (if I understand the initial statement by Mr. Obama) he want to pay for Harvard, Yale, USC, Duke, et al.
" I don't know how or why teachers and college students have suddenly become the villains holding our country back."
They are not. It is the politicians and university's boards of trustees and presidents who are causing the tuition increases and the ballyhoo surrounding them.
"Now, you insulted my son calling him a scammer, and I pointed out that I found that offensive."
I did not call him anything. I suggested the possibility, which you promply rejected. I then suggested that if you believe there is no possibility that your son might consider scamming you, then you are delusional. I stand by that statement. (As far as the reference to beer, that's far from suggesting he's a drunk and more a reference to the fact that most college students party at some point during their time at college).
AnthonyRusso,
"There was no mention about the people getting money to go to college."
So you honestly believe that the president made the comment, but had no intent of offering a solution. It was just made in passing?
Speaking of delusional!
How many times did Mr. Obama, during his State of the Union address, suggest that congress increase taxes? And you do not believe that his comment on the high cost of tuition was in any way shape or form related.
"Currently prices I see are about 5K per year for tuition."
Where do you look? According to the link I provided above, the national average is half that. Now, if you only look in California, then I can see where there is a huge difference. In that case, it might be cheaper to have your young-un stay in a studio apartment while attending college in Arizona or Nevada.
"Ironically, the reason Community college is so much more affordable, is because the gov't is "taking your money at gunpoint" to pay for it."
Yes, and now (if I understand the initial statement by Mr. Obama) he want to pay for Harvard, Yale, USC, Duke, et al.
" I don't know how or why teachers and college students have suddenly become the villains holding our country back."
They are not. It is the politicians and university's boards of trustees and presidents who are causing the tuition increases and the ballyhoo surrounding them.
"Now, you insulted my son calling him a scammer, and I pointed out that I found that offensive."
I did not call him anything. I suggested the possibility, which you promply rejected. I then suggested that if you believe there is no possibility that your son might consider scamming you, then you are delusional. I stand by that statement. (As far as the reference to beer, that's far from suggesting he's a drunk and more a reference to the fact that most college students party at some point during their time at college).
AnthonyRusso,
"There was no mention about the people getting money to go to college."
So you honestly believe that the president made the comment, but had no intent of offering a solution. It was just made in passing?
Speaking of delusional!
How many times did Mr. Obama, during his State of the Union address, suggest that congress increase taxes? And you do not believe that his comment on the high cost of tuition was in any way shape or form related.
"Currently prices I see are about 5K per year for tuition."
Where do you look? According to the link I provided above, the national average is half that. Now, if you only look in California, then I can see where there is a huge difference. In that case, it might be cheaper to have your young-un stay in a studio apartment while attending college in Arizona or Nevada.
Cliff
You've suggested my son is a scammer because you and I are debating tuition costs. You have no basis in the discussions of tuition between my son and I, yet you continue to suggest that there may be a possibility my son is lying, and I'm delusional to think he isn't.
I stand by my statement, that you are an asshole!
You've suggested my son is a scammer because you and I are debating tuition costs. You have no basis in the discussions of tuition between my son and I, yet you continue to suggest that there may be a possibility my son is lying, and I'm delusional to think he isn't.
I stand by my statement, that you are an asshole!
>>"There was no mention about the people getting money to go to college."
>>So you honestly believe that the president made the comment, but had no intent of offering a solution. It was just made in passing?
You forgot the first line of the statement you posted from me, you know the part that offered the solution he mentioned.
"During the SOTU the message the president gave was about colleges reeling in the cost of their tuition or the colleges wont get subsidies as much, which the conservatives seem to favor."
Nice job of chopping up a quote to make your point even though it changes the meaning of the quote or omits an important part. You could work on FoxNews with that skill.
>>Where do you look?
My local area. My kids are college aged now so I am aware of the prices locally around me.
>>So you honestly believe that the president made the comment, but had no intent of offering a solution. It was just made in passing?
You forgot the first line of the statement you posted from me, you know the part that offered the solution he mentioned.
"During the SOTU the message the president gave was about colleges reeling in the cost of their tuition or the colleges wont get subsidies as much, which the conservatives seem to favor."
Nice job of chopping up a quote to make your point even though it changes the meaning of the quote or omits an important part. You could work on FoxNews with that skill.
>>Where do you look?
My local area. My kids are college aged now so I am aware of the prices locally around me.
Here's the context of the original question:
Emphasis mine.
Higher education is not a luxury. It's an economic imperative that every family in America should be able to afford. And when I say higher education, I don't just mean four-year colleges and universities; I also mean our community colleges and providing lifelong learning for workers who may need to retrain for jobs when the economy shifts. All those things cost money, and it's harder and harder to afford.
Here at Michigan, you’ve done a lot to find savings in your budget. We know this is possible. So from now on, I’m telling Congress we should steer federal campus-based aid to those colleges that keep tuition affordable, provide good value, serve their students well. We are putting colleges on notice … you can't assume that you’ll just jack up tuition every single year. If you can’t stop tuition from going up, then the funding you get from taxpayers each year will go down. We should push colleges to do better. We should hold them accountable if they don’t.
The bottom line is that an economy built to last demands we keep doing everything we can to bring down the cost of college.
Emphasis mine.
I like the words.
Wow, so we have all the OWS people bitchin about having degrees and not able to get jobs and people think we need to spend MORE so MORE people can join the OWS. I guess I would feel better about myself when I stop to get gas that the person working has a masters in ball bouncing and doesn't owe a dime since the tax payers are picking up the tab.
LOL ah bergermeister, your always great for a laugh with your satirical cynicism.
Actually this is one of the OWS complaints - the soaring rate of tuition and yes, not being able to get a decent job to pay down said tuition.
Of course, you hate the OWS for whatever reason and want to imagine them in the most negative light possible. However, you can't argue with the facts that wages for most levels of workers have been stagnant for about 30 years now. Have tuition rates over that same time period been stagnant as well?
Actually this is one of the OWS complaints - the soaring rate of tuition and yes, not being able to get a decent job to pay down said tuition.
Of course, you hate the OWS for whatever reason and want to imagine them in the most negative light possible. However, you can't argue with the facts that wages for most levels of workers have been stagnant for about 30 years now. Have tuition rates over that same time period been stagnant as well?
beetos, we agree on a lot of things, but we disagree on how to get there. I truly believe that individual responsibility is the route to go, and IMO, you believe that Gov't knows best. I blame the raising cost of tuiton on the Gov't. They have a fat wallet and when they get involved, things get pricey. And you will never convince me that a degree makes a better employee. Obama is just pandering. I can hear him know......"NOW let ME be CLEAR..........every american should have blah blah blah......does it really even matter what he says anymore......I already know, we need healthcare, education, good food, clean environment,equality in the workplace, tolerance. clean energy......Do I need the Gov't to promise me this or that, Hell no, How about just life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
My favorite line in this whole thread was the first one.
"If every person could afford to go on to college, who is going to staff our factories?"
I guess people with degrees in Ufology and have 50 grand in student loans, have no drive and like to burn the flag.......Any ideas? Must be the Tea Party.
>>beetos, we agree on a lot of things, but we disagree on how to get there. I truly believe that individual responsibility is the route to go, and IMO, you believe that Gov't knows best.
We do, and you seem to think that capitalism knows best and will fix everything. I strongly disagree, and think that corporations will put profits ahead of what's best for society, which is their right but sometimes is a bad thing, and that's where the gov't needs to step in.
Somewhere in the middle of what you and I think is the best route to go, is a workable solution. Let's hope our elected officials find it.
BTW - just because college could become affordable doesn't mean everyone is going to go. Factories, if they still exist, will still get workers they need.
And while you're mocking the ufologists now, I'm sure you'll change your tune right quick when aliens come to take over earth! ;-)
We do, and you seem to think that capitalism knows best and will fix everything. I strongly disagree, and think that corporations will put profits ahead of what's best for society, which is their right but sometimes is a bad thing, and that's where the gov't needs to step in.
Somewhere in the middle of what you and I think is the best route to go, is a workable solution. Let's hope our elected officials find it.
BTW - just because college could become affordable doesn't mean everyone is going to go. Factories, if they still exist, will still get workers they need.
And while you're mocking the ufologists now, I'm sure you'll change your tune right quick when aliens come to take over earth! ;-)
The statement is not saying everyone should go to college, as not everyone should. Some people don't have the drive, or work ethic, or desire. But if someone does, lack of money to afford to go is the problem.