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Setting up SBS2011 DC on Windows Server 2012

Posted on 2012-09-02
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Hi,

  I need to setup a server system for about 10 users including Terminal Service/Exchange.
  After listening experts on this board regarding two choices (VMWare ESXi and Hyper-V), this time I have decided to go with Hyper-V that comes standard with Windows 2012. I am going to purchase Windows 2012 Server this week.
  That said, since I am not familiar with setting up Hyper-V, I would like to get some advise from experts who have setup Hyper-V using Windows 2012 Server.

  (1) Can you give me some guidelines on how to and what to expect during the installation?
  (2) Since it will take time to receive a Windows 2012 Server installation DVD from Microsoft, can I download this (trial version) from Microsoft website for now to install it and enter the license code to activate later?
  (3) Windows 2012 Server will be used for Terminal Service, Hyper-V, and Server backup. Using Hyper-V, I plan on installing SBS2011 as VM and Domain Controller. Do you see any issues with this senario?
  (4) Can I use Windows Native Backup program to backup both Windows Server 2012 and SBS2011 Virtual Machine in Hyper-V environment in single external USB hard drive or I have to have two separate external USB hard drives?
 (5)  What kind of memory/hard drive space allocation should I do (during Hyper-V setup) for both OS? I have a new server box with 32GB RAM and 2TB HD.
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Question by:sglee
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by:Manpreet SIngh Khatra
Manpreet SIngh Khatra earned 264 total points
ID: 38358964
Install the Hyper-V Role and Configure a Virtual Machine
http://technet.microsoft.com/library/hh846766.aspx

This content shows you how to install the Hyper-V role on a computer running Windows Server® 2012. It also provides basic instructions for creating and configuring a virtual machine after Hyper-V is installed. It doesn’t provide configuration instructions for specific usage scenarios, such as configuring Hyper-V to use scale-out file servers. Instead, it provides links to other documents that provide those instructions, when available.


- Rancy
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by:sglee
ID: 38358992
Where do I download Windows 2012?
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by:Manpreet SIngh Khatra
Manpreet SIngh Khatra earned 264 total points
ID: 38359006
Download Windows Server 2012 Release Candidate (RC)
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/hh670538.aspx

- Rancy
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by:sglee
ID: 38359012
Rancy
Thanks you for the download link.
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38359046
I would not download and use the RC for production purposes. In-place upgrading to RTM is not supported.

To answer your questions:

1) at is a rather broad question. So no, I can't give you guidelines. Do a few trial installs. Get used to the process. Read the deploy,ent guides on technet. If there were an easy way to sum all that up in a few sentences then the technet guides and the dozens of books being published would be unnecessary.

2) depends on how you are purchasing. Most trial versions can be activated with retail or VL codes. OEM not so much. With that said, I'd recommend buying VL, and if you go that route, you'll have immediate down,pad access via the volume licensing center. No need to wait for media.

3)  There are a few issues to be aware of. Not necessarily problems, just...issues, don't run any other roles with hyper-v. That means make a VM for your terminal services server as well. Be aware of the limitations of hyper-v with regards to device pass through. That will impact your USB backup plan as well as SBSs fax support. These need to be considered during the planning phase.

4) that depends entirely on your recovery strategy. There are pros and cons to each approach. entire books are written regarding disaster recovery. Again, I cannot summarize that topic in even a single paragraph.

5) that depends entirely on usage patterns. A site that uses sharepoint heavily and light exchange use will need different memory and hard drive requirements than a site that doesn't touch sharepoint. Properly allocating resources is as much an art as it is science and you must tap into prior experience as well as knowledge of the organization where the server is being installed. There is no easy answer here.
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by:
Lee W, MVP earned 536 total points
ID: 38359084
First, Server 2012 is NOT GENERALLY AVAILABLE YET.  The link provided by Rancy is the Release Candidate - it's not clear and Rancy did not clearly state this - but the Release candidate is not final software.  While you can use it to try things, for STABILITY and SUPPORTABILITY purposes, I would DEFINITELY NOT be building my final systems using it.

Now, on to your questions:

> (1) Can you give me some guidelines on how to and what to
> expect during the installation?

The best "guideline" I would offer to someone who has never installed it is to install it.  On a NON-PRODUCTION system.  Then WIPE IT OUT and reinstall it.  You want experience and experience is generally not sufficiently gained by doing something once.  Play with it.  If you are not experienced with Hyper-V OR VMWare, then you should be EITHER Hiring a pro with experience OR LEARNING IT for the next few days AT LEAST.  And learning through installation on a variety of systems so you know what to expect - physical, virtual, etc.  (No one ever wants to do this but it CAN make the difference between long term success and being fired or spending a LOT more money correcting mistakes later).

>  (2) Since it will take time to receive a Windows 2012 Server installation
> DVD from Microsoft, can I download this (trial version) from Microsoft
> website for now to install it and enter the license code to activate later?
Who says?  Server 2012 will be released to TechNet and MSDN (for TESTING/DEVELOPMENT purposes) on Tuesday.  It's ALREADY available on the Volume License Service Center (VLSC).  Buy a volume license for Server 2012 Standard with Software Assurance and you can download it in a few hours (mostly because of the time it takes to get the license paperwork pushed through).


>  (3) Windows 2012 Server will be used for Terminal Service, Hyper-V, and
> Server backup. Using Hyper-V, I plan on installing SBS2011 as VM and Domain
> Controller. Do you see any issues with this senario?

Kind of.  Server 2012 Standard comes with licenses to run TWO virtual instances.  I have not yet read the license agreement or asked the question of Microsoft if the "1+1" rights that came with Server 2008 R2 are essentially the same (except for being "1+2").  If they are, that means that the ONLY thing you can use on the physical install is Hyper-V and Backup.  Basically, if the rights are the same you can ONLY use the physical install to run Hyper-V and related management and backup.  RDS, for example, would be a violation.  HOWEVER, Because there are "2" virtual licenses, it MAY be possible to sacrifice one of them to run one virtual and one physical.  BUT, you shouldn't be running RDS on the physical install (security and reliability and flexibility issues).  So, in your case, what you should be doing is:
Physical Server: Windows Server 2012 running Hyper-V and Backup ONLY.
Virtual Machine 1: RDS Server ("1 of 2" VM licenses that come with Server 2012)
Virtual Machine 2: SBS 2011 (Separate license purchase)
Virtual Machine 3: Unused ("2 of 2" VM licenses that come with Server 2012, unless you have another need for something...)

And keep in mind, Since you're going to be using Server 2012, you will also need a TOTAL of 10 CALs for Server 2012 PLUS 10 CALs for SBS 2011 PLUS 10 CALs for RDS.  (CALs are Additive and ONLY apply to prior versions.  If this were SBS 2012, then you should be covered and NOT NEED 10 CALs for Server 2012 -- but SBS 2012 does not include Exchange and is also not due for a few months; RDS requires separate CALs anyway that "add-on" to the SBS/Windows CALs the right to access the RDS server).

>  (4) Can I use Windows Native Backup program to backup both Windows
> Server 2012 and SBS2011 Virtual Machine in Hyper-V environment in single
> external USB hard drive or I have to have two separate external USB hard drives?

Depends on how you setup backup.  If you setup the drive as a "native" backup drive, then it won't let you use it for anything else and then only the Hyper-V 2012 system will backup to it.  If you treat it as a data drive, then you can backup the Hyper-V system AND, through UNC share, backup the SBS 2012 system to the drive.

> (5)  What kind of memory/hard drive space allocation should I do
> (during Hyper-V setup) for both OS? I have a new server box with
> 32GB RAM and 2TB HD.

I would probably setup 100 GB for the Physical C: drive and the OS install running Hyper-V.

Then Dynamic VHDs for RDS Server, and SBS Server "C" drive and SBS Server "D" (Data) drive.  (I usually setup multiple drives in an SBS Server, one for Exchange, one for shared data, one for other data... and possibly more depending on the use; to me, the partitions act as "hard" quotas - it's definitely not a requirements and other experts may well disagree with me on this point).  One thing to keep in mind with multiple VHDs of a dynamic type - you run the risk of fragmenting the VHDs.  Your server more ideally would have multiple spindle sets and you'd split up the VHDs onto those spindles.  In your case, I probably setup the RDS VHD as a 200 GB Dynamic VHD and I create a separate PHYSICAL 220 GB partition on the Hyper-V system.  Then I setup another 140 GB Partition for the SBS "C" drive VHD on the physical system and then more partitions with a 20 GB buffer for each additional VHD.  Why not use Fixed VHDs?  If you have to (or want to) copy the VHDs off, a dynamic VHD will be FAR smaller and copy FAR faster than a dynamic VHD.  By using ONE partition PER VHD, you ensure that the VHDs CANNOT fragment because they are the only file on an allocated block of disk space.  They can always grow into contiguous space.  It can make for easier adjustments later in server life (when you add more disks or otherwise move the servers off).

As for RAM, I would setup the SBS Server with 16 GB of RAM STATICALLY - do NOT use Dynamic RAM on it.  Then I would setup the RDS server with 14 GB of DYNAMIC RAM.  Why the different RAM settings?  Exchange will use as much RAM as it can get.  If you set the SBS Server to use 30 GB of RAM in a Dynamically assigned VM, it will likely grab ALL the RAM it can get, costing the RDS server.  RDS on the other hand, since it doesn't use Exchange or a full SQL install, will only take the RAM it needs and grow into using more up to the maximum assigned.  My servers (not running Exchange and SQL) use 600 MB to 2.5 GB of RAM each even though each is granted 4 GB as a maximum.  This leaves more RAM for the Hyper-V server so it can be very responsive as you use it.  The one thing I do is leave 2 GB available for the physical Hyper-V system.

And as a final point, Server 2012 Standard has a 4 TB RAM limit - in Server 2008 R2, the limit was 32 GB.
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38368760
@cgaliher, @leew

Thanks for your comments and I appreciate it. I like to revisit item#3 - setting up multiple server software in one box.

1. Install Windows 2012 Standard first.
2. Install Hyper-V on W2012 to install two VMs -
    (1st VM) Install SBS2011 as DC, File/Exchange/Print Server.
    (2nd VM) Windows 2008R2 - Terminal Server / Quickbooks Multi-User Version Server.

Do you forsee any issues with this setup?
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38368906
Actually yes. In keeping with the theme of other comments above, here is a simple rule:

Servers are servers and desktops are desktops. Don't ever try to do both on the same machine. This even applies to remote desktop services/terminal services (which hosts desktop environments.)

In short, you will have problems if you try to host the QuickBooks database server component on your remote desktop services VM.

Also, while not necessarily a problem, from a budgetary point of view, keep in mind that the only edition that Intuit supports on RDS is QuickBooks Enterprise. Not even Premiere is supported.  That may a significant jump in costs in a multi-user/multi-license scenario.

-Cliff
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38368947
"Intuit supports on RDS is QuickBooks Enterprise" ---> Thank you for that.
Now if you see a problem with the senario that I laid out, how would you set things up then?
I have 10 users who are going to connect the terminal server to access their email, quickbooks, word, excel. I wish I could do it all in one server install like SBS2011, but it does not provide Terminal Service, so I need to create VM for that unless I buy another server box.
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38369123
"In short, you will have problems if you try to host the QuickBooks database server component on your remote desktop services VM."  ---> Can you tell me why it would be a problem to run Terminal Service and Quickbook database from the same Virutial serfver?
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38369289
To answer the two questions you asked (in reverse order), first I'll address the why. RDS does some interesting things with files to allow multiple users on the same server. This is all well and good, but server apps are usually not designed with simultaneous logged in sessions in mind. They expect a single-instance environment, and any multi-user support is usually done at the remote connection level. Hosting a server app on an RDS server opens significant risk to data loss due to file contention, one session overwriting data that another session had placed in cached memory, file locks, and performance issues. An RDS server should strictly be used for client applications, never server applications.

QuickBooks multi-user support is done via a client app and a separate server component. As such, the server component should not be on an RDS server in keeping with the above advice. So as far as how I'd set things up, Server 2012 offers 1+2 licensing on up to 2 processors. So assuming you have a dual processor server, you could buy SBS 2011 and one copy of Server 2012 Standard. With those two licenses (and appropriately matching CALs) you can perform the following setup:

Physical: 2012 with the Hyper-V role.
VM1: SBS 2011
VM2: An Application server running Server 2012. Install the QuickBooks server component here.
VM3: Server 2012 with the RDS role. You can install the QuickBooks client application and other client applications here.

You will be fully utilizing the 2012 1+2 licensing, have a clean Hyper-V host with no other roles, and have SBS. Such a virtualization setup will take some beefy hardware, but nothing out of reach for the SMB space. You'd get many of the benefits of the 2012 platform, most notably RemoteFX improvements, and still have the separation and security boundaries of the separate servers. If I were the consultant on such a project, this would be my proposed solution.

-Cliff
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by:Lee W, MVP
Lee W, MVP earned 536 total points
ID: 38369317
I agree - if you go back to my original comment, I said:
Physical Server: Windows Server 2012 running Hyper-V and Backup ONLY.
Virtual Machine 1: RDS Server ("1 of 2" VM licenses that come with Server 2012)
Virtual Machine 2: SBS 2011 (Separate license purchase)
Virtual Machine 3: Unused ("2 of 2" VM licenses that come with Server 2012, unless you have another need for something...)

However, since you have now added Quickbooks to the mix, that "Unused" server can be used at no additional Windows license cost.

As for hardware, I would expect any decent Quad core server with that original 32 GB of RAM should be fine.  Again, SBS should not be set to use Dynamic RAM, but the other two (RDS and Quickbooks) can be.  I'd set RDS to that 14 GB and I'd set the Quickbooks server to (probably 4 GB) maximums and start them both with 1 GB while SBS gets 16 GB dedicated.
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38369411
I thought that you can create only TWO VMs in 2012 Hyper-V and I see three VMs in your senario.

I just discovered a new twist. My customer runs Quick Books Enterprise software (they are tax accounts) and Intuit support just told me that Quick Books Enterprise version is NOT compatible with W2012,  though it is compatible with W2008 R2.

So revised setup senario would be then:

Physical: 2012 with the Hyper-V role.
VM1: SBS 2011
VM2: An Application server running Server 2008 R2. Install the QuickBooks Enterprise
VM3: Server 2012 with the RDS role. QuickBooks client application and other client applications such as OUTLOOK, WORD, EXCEL
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by:Lee W, MVP
Lee W, MVP earned 536 total points
ID: 38369451
Server 2012 VMs should provide you with Downgrade rights so you still don't need any additional Windows licenses to run a VM with Server 2008 R2.

As for VMs, Hyper-V supports as many VMs as you want to run and the hardware can support based on your "specifications" of VM hardware... The "two" we are speaking of is LICENSES INCLUDED to run Windows.  You can run UP TO two VMs running Windows Server Standard WITHOUT the need to purchase additional Windows Server licenses.  You can run those two VMs and then 50 Linux VMs if you want.  If your hardware is capable enough to provide the resources.  If you want to run 10 VMs with a Windows Server operating system, then you need 5 Windows server 2012 standard licenses.  Or a single Datacenter license (which would likely be cheaper).

Same sentiment, slightly different words:
Hyper-V has no licensing requirements or licensing limitations.  The OSs you run in the VMs you create may - and Server 2012 Standard grants you TWO with each copy.
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38369593
Thanks for thorough explanation about Hyper-V licensing. I have a better understanding.
I spoke to Quickbook Support again just now about the installation of Quickbook Enterprise and this is what they told me.
I can install  Quickbook Enterprise on SBS2011 because it is essentially 2008 R2.
For terminal server installation, I just put the same program CD in the Terminal Server and choose "Program Only". That is it.

So it looks like 3rd VM may not be necessary. Below is revised setup senario:

Physical: 2012 with the Hyper-V role.
VM1: SBS 2011 with  Quickbook Enterprise w/ database management (something like that)
VM2: Server 2012 with the RDS role. QuickBooks client application and other client applications such as OUTLOOK, WORD, EXCEL WORD, EXCEL
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38369597
Agreed. However I want to clarify something. The Windows license is very specifically 1+2, which is to say you can run one host and two guests *on that host.* It does not grant you two licenses to run on different hosts. I've seen this become an issue and be a misunderstanding when a business grows and they decide to buy a new server and keep one of the VMs on an old server to maximize resources. For every windows license, there are rights to 2 VMs and both VMs must reside on the same host.

So if you were to purchase 2 copies of 2012, you'd have the rights to run 4 VMs. You could run all four on one server, as leew explained, there isn't a limitation there, or you could run 2 VMs on one physical server and 2 VMs on another. But you could *not* run 3 VMs on one server and only 1 on another. Even though you are licensed for 4 VMs, you are restricted where they can run to an extent as outlined here.

Hope that makes sense.

-Cliff
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38369612
I was typing my last reply when you typed yours. So here is my follow-up response to your new scenario:

1) SBS 2011 already has a lot of work to do. Exchange and SQL, notably, eat up all available memory. I can tell you from first-hand experience that putting Quickbooks on SBS will cause SBS to have performance issues, and in many cases, actually lock up and freeze requiring a reboot.  DON'T DO IT.

2) The 2012 license *gives* you 2 VMs. Since you can use them, I strongly urge you to do so. The price difference between the 2VM scenario you propose and the 3VM leew and I have suggested is exactly $0. The benefits, however, are vast. From a security standpoint, performance standpoint, usability standpoint, and even a disaster recovery standpoint, the 3VM solution is more managable.

-Cliff
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38369622
@cgaliher
Thanks for additional explanation on licensing.
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38369676
@cgaliher

I got you. I don't want performance issue or lockup issues either. I have installed SBS2003 and SBS2011 for multiple customer network and never had a problem. Of course none of them ran SQL server either, Just Exchange.
In this particular situation, I just  wanted to set up as few VMs as possible from management standpoint and I wanted all the data files in one place (SBS2011). Besides they will have about 5 con-current users using WORD/EXCEL/OUTLOOK/QUICKBOOKS.

If you still believe SBS2011 (w/o SQL Server)  would definately cause problems, I will following the originally suggested senario with 3 VMs.

Physical: 2012 with the Hyper-V role.
VM1: SBS 2011
VM2: An Application server running Server 2008 R2. Install the QuickBooks Enterprise
VM3: Server 2008R2 with the RDS role. QuickBooks client application and other client applications such as OUTLOOK, WORD, EXCEL
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38369693
SBS uses SQL for WSUS and the monitoring reports. So yes, SQL will be on SBS 2011, even if you don't explicitly put it on there. And yes, adding a quickbooks database engine on top of all of that just causes SBS to fall over. The number of users isn't the issue. It is simply how databases use memory, and Quickbooks is not memory-friendly.

-Cliff
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by:Lee W, MVP
Lee W, MVP earned 536 total points
ID: 38369708
Personally, I don't have as much concern over this.  It's ALMOST ALWAYS better to separate out services and creating an "app server" and starting with Quickbooks is as good a place as any to start.  Especially if you have the Windows software license. And you can put your AV administration console there too.  (Consider what happens if you call Intuit on a problem and they tell you to reboot the server... how much of a disruption would that be to everyone on SBS to reboot the SBS server... or would it be better to say "Quickbooks will be down for 5 minutes" instead of e-mail, quickbooks, file sharing, and internet will be down for 20 minutes"

BUT, at the end of the day, running QuickBooks on the SBS server shouldn't pose a significant issue during normal operations.
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38369899
@cgaliher
It is good to know that Quickbooks is not memory-friendly.

@leew
"Quickbooks will be down for 5 minutes" instead of e-mail, quickbooks, file sharing, and internet will be down for 20 minutes" ---> great example.

Why don't we put anything on "Physical: 2012 with the Hyper-V role"?
Is that because we can utilize other VMs for APPs and TS service w/o additiona cost?

Another thing is that it is too bad that users don't get to enjoy TS 2012 due to Quickbooks incompatibility; therefore settle for W2008 R2 - old technology.
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38369936
Short answer is it is part of the license. 1+2 is only valid if the physical instance is only used for hyper-v. If other roles and services are installed then you are no longer licensed to run 2 windows VMs. It is a legal thing and is designed to prevent people from abusing the license agreement to get three application servers from a single license.

There are also technical reasons why running roles and services on a hyper-v host are bad, but considering you basically get the hyper-v host for free when you purchase a windows license, but since it'd be illegal to do so anyways, it is probably not worth delving into. It'd be a book...

-Cliff
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38369985
@cgaliher
"1+2 is only valid if the physical instance is only used for hyper-v" --> I got it now.

Regarding backups .... now I have one Physical 2012 with hyper-V and three VMs. Do I need 4 external USB drives for each OS?

Another question about TS licensing ... I have setup TS licensing server and had to call Microsoft to activate it. My question is if I buy & activate  a "5 User RDS license" and 6th person try to log on to the TS, what happens?
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38370021
Regarding backups, disaster recovery is a very complex topic. do you need four drives per OS? That depends on what programs you choose to use, how you choose to back up, retention period, rotation schedule, and other factors. And those factors may even be different for each OS. Does the terminal server need to be backed up as often as the SBS server? How often do user profiles change? These are things you need to ask yourself, and then make a plan accordingly. Plan first, them implement. Not the other way around.

Regarding RDS: User CALs are *NOT* concurrent. They are assigned to a user. If you add a user to the security group that is allowed to log into the RDS server then you had better have purchased a CAL for them. In short, your scenario should never occur because if you only have 5 CALs, there should only be 5 users in the security group that is allowed to log onto the RDS server. If you add a 6th user...even if they don't log in...you are in an illegal state. Don't do it.

-Cliff
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38370097
@cgaliher
Thanks for RDS licensing information.
As to the backup, I have trditionalled used Backup Exec. Recently with SBS2011s, I started using Windows Native Backup and I like it.But my question is how do you back up VMs? Other than backing up SBS2011(data house) daily - I personally see the reason to backup all other VMs more than once a week.
However since I have not seen Hyper-V, I am not quite sure how you back up VMs.
Can I use Windows backup program to backup one physical 2012 and 3 VMs on a SINGLE external USB drive or do I need 4 external USB backup drives?
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38375898
Can I use Windows backup program to backup one physical 2012 and 3 VMs on a SINGLE external USB drive or do I need 4 external USB backup drives?
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by:Cliff Galiher
Cliff Galiher earned 1200 total points
ID: 38377129
You can back up on the physical level, but restores can be tricky. And/or you can back up from within the VMs. Again, DR planning is a significant undertaking
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Author Comment

by:sglee
ID: 38377252
Ok. I will just have to try to see what works the best.  Thanks.
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