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CHI-LTD
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Avaya vs Shortel

A decision will be made on either of the following systems (not yet had comparative quotes yet), but I'd like to know if there are any positive/negatives from the experts???

2 sites.
40 phones
need failover
sip, isdn, efm option and recommendations
voicemail
voicerecording

Cheers
Voice Over IPTelecommunicationsIP Telephony

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CHI-LTD

8/22/2022 - Mon
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Gary Dewrell

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Mohammed Hamada

We are using Snom, cheap, effective and have all these features however, if I you'd stick to those two then I'd suggest Shoretel as well.
CHI-LTD

ASKER
Sorry, snom phones with a shoretel system?
Mohammed Hamada

Yes Snom phones work on Shoretel system. however some codec issues might rise and need additional configuration to this applies on other regular phones.
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CHI-LTD

ASKER
If were installing a new shoretel surely its wise to use the shoretel phones?
Mohammed Hamada

Well to be honest I think the only thing that would get people to buy snom phones rather than Shoretel is the cost.

Other than that if you're buying a shoretel system then I'd get shoretel phones too.
CHI-LTD

ASKER
Anyone used the shoretel sky offering (cloud) and is it available in the uk?
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Gary Dewrell

I have not. Sorry.
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JRSCGI

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getzjd

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CHI-LTD

ASKER
How are the sites connected?  Ethernet?  MPLS?  
What is in place should your line or shoretel switch go down?  Resilience?
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getzjd

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ArneLovius

I prefer Avaya CM systems, but I've been working with them since they were Lucent.

I still manage a Prologix system that was installed in 1995, granted its TDM only, but it (and its handsets) are still working very happily for ~120 users.

I've never used Lucent/Avaya Audix (apart from on the IP600), but always used CallXpress voicemail which has also been rock solid, the Prologix system is connected to a CX system that is still running on OS/2...

I also manage a 5 site CM5.2 system with CX8, it has an LSP at 2 of remote sites with local ISDN30. The sites have L2L IPSec VPN connectivity over a WISP and failover inbound routing via the telco, so have "digger/back hoe" continuity
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James Murphy
CHI-LTD

ASKER
getzjd: are you routing in & outbound calls over the MPLS for all sites?  What happens if your line fails or the cloud/datacentre has an issue?  Can you route calls over ISDN as a backup?  This is something one provider has mentioned for redundancy..
CHI-LTD

ASKER
getzjd: a sip trunk is essentially a connection (IP) from the internal phone system out over the internet connection?
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CHI-LTD

ASKER
sip carrier?
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getzjd

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CHI-LTD

ASKER
PRI is?
Mohammed Hamada

Primary Rate Interface
The Primary Rate Interface (PRI) is a standardized telecommunications service level within the Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN) specification for carrying multiple DS0 voice and data transmissions between a network and a user.

It usually exists in VoIP gateways mostly like UX for NET, Patton ..etc
JRSCGI

However, ISDN PRI circuits have been around for over 30 years and are a legacy technology delivering up to 23 simultaneous voice calls (North America) or 30 simultaneous voice calls (Europe) over a T1/E1 circuit.  They were in use long before VoIP systems hit the market and a staple of large digital phone systems' connection to the public telephone network.  VoIP systems needed to adapt to this initial reality and thus had to have a PRI gateway.  Only lately have VoIP system had the option to connect in native IP mode to a carrier for dial-tone - the SIP Trunks discussed earlier.
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CHI-LTD

ASKER
Update:

Seen a few partners/resellers of systems now.  Seem to be getting conflicting information from these in terms of QOS.  Some saying avoid using ethernet and use ISDN for voice...
Whereas others deploying MPLS say its not an issue...
getzjd

MPLS between sites is the way to go.  You can then prioritize your voice packets.
CHI-LTD

ASKER
Do you mean the MPLS provider can?
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Mohammed Hamada

I think you can do if you have control over the QoS. but MPLS network is managed by ISP or ITSP so it most likely the provider will do it.
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CHI-LTD

ASKER
Ok, we have nearly got all proposals in, just wanted techies views on the options and any potential issues:

Solution:
1. Single Avaya system @ our new site that doesnt integrate with our remote site, using SIP over an existing shared with day-to-day traffic  10/100 single pipe.  Site to site VPN in place.
2. 2x integrated avaya systems @ HQ and Remote site over an mpls site wuth ISDN @ both sites and a seprate site to site VPN over ethernet (HQ) & ADSL (remote)
3. Fully hosted voice using C&W over mpls.  1x line per site for voice and data.
4. 2x shoretels @ HQ and remote site with HA.  Oasis voicerecording.  SIP @ HQ shared with data traffic, ISDN used @ remoet site.

Clearly the costs are key here, but what option would you for for?  Integration of systems is very important and QOS must be guaranteed?
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ArneLovius

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CHI-LTD

ASKER
Thanks for the input.  The shoretel does look better than the avaya but costs a little bit more generally (not sure if it is in this case).
Like the look of the hosted solution and will save on capex, and think hosted solution will be a number of years to become more expensive in the long run.

yes - oaisys..

decisions.
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ArneLovius

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CHI-LTD

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Worrying..
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getzjd

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CHI-LTD

ASKER
Does their HA ability work?
JRSCGI

ShoreTel HA works very well, it is built into the firmware of the ShoreGear boxes and our clients using it have been very pleased.  A long time ago we had clients with the IP Office that experienced many problems, but the product has been greatly improved since it was introduced.  Industry surveys have repeatedly put ShoreTel at the top in customer satisfaction.  

I had my staff do a check on the number of hosted telephony providers in North America last fall as input for a speech I was giving and we identified almost 800 different vendors.  This is a clear indication of the dangers of choosing the wrong hosted vendor - there are far too many players and financially the industry can not support but a small fraction of them.
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CHI-LTD

ASKER
I have now been told by another ISP that their hosted voice (based on horizon) doesn't need MPLS connections and can guarantee QOS over a typical EFM connection prioritising traffic at the router level.
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CHI-LTD

ASKER
So ISDN still then????

Still no nearer to deciding on how best to proceed!!!!
CHI-LTD

ASKER
I see that the ingate siperator (some recommend and some suppliers do not) has a built in security...
Would this be an issue with a traditional router - firewall - setup?  

Where would the ingate sit?  
Can it run codec 711?
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rwheeler23
getzjd

Unfortunately, I cannot add much about the Ingate in regards to an external SIP trunk in terms of necessity, however, I have read that there are many not using it as ShoreTel expanded their SIP capabilities, especially in V13.   I can say though that I donot need a Siperator for a SIP trunk between an Avaya IP Office and Shoretel on V10.2 or V12.2.  I was able to configure a direct trunk.  

This has a demo interface http://www.ingate.com/ 

See this document here for placement options http://www.ingate.com/files/Ingate_SIParator_General_20120809.pdf
CHI-LTD

ASKER
ok, the quoted shortel solution we have:

Both sites connected over 10mb LL with SIP, using cisco asa5505 firewalls & routers with site to site vpn.  adsl backup.

HQ:
ingate siperator
POE switch (probably HP)
Utilise existing HP switches for computers/servers
2x SG90's
Shoreware director client
hq tower server
oaisys voice recording
communicator client software
25x ip230

remote site a:
poe switch
sg90
shoreware director
10xip230's
isdn2 backup

remote:
number of remote users using 230's over vpn or ip565 for those without site vpn.
app for blackberry voice recording..

how does that look...?
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CHI-LTD

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I was told it simply handles the traffic and converts/compresses using the codec 729 for the SIP traffic?
I have a feeling Site A is going out via ISDN though...
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JRSCGI

If you are going to use ISDN connections instead of a SIP trunk, then an SBC is not needed.

An SBC provides security and can help defend against UDP attacks.  It also provides conversion for unlike implementations of the SIP options and can support both G.729 and G.711 codecs.  These are not issues with an ISDN circuit, but and SBC does more than what you were told.
CHI-LTD

ASKER
I believe we are only using ISDN as a backup for site A.

Ok , thanks
CHI-LTD

ASKER
Update.  I might now be going hosted.

The providers of the connectivity cannot guarantee compatibility, performance, quality etc when a shoretel system is to be deployed onsite....
Slightly worrying...
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fblack61
getzjd

You referring to the provider of the SIP trunk?  If you use the Siparator then you should not have any issues. Going direct to shoretel should still work, but no guarantees there.
CHI-LTD

ASKER
Yes, well i think so.

I have Supplier A proposing the connectivity for all sites, this will be a managed firewall and router at each site.
Then Supplier B install the phone system in site A and B.

i think the issue is that the ISP cant guarantee the SIP side of things...

But just spoken to another provider and they said there is a number of ways to deploy.  Bandwidth being key...

Why do salesman make things difficult?
CHI-LTD

ASKER
Thanks for the help, we are going shoretel....
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