Vertical Lines on Monitor for about 30 minutes
A set of vertical lines appear onscreen for about the first 30 minutes after the PC/monitor are turned on. The attached JPGs show the complete screen and a close-up of the lines. Ignore the greenish horizontal band - that is an artifact of taking a picture of the computer screen. After about a half hour the lines disappear for as long as the PC is left on. (It is turned off each night.)
The lines occur at about 89.9% across the screen from the left edge or about horizontal pixel 1725 of 1900.
I'd like to figure out how to eliminate the vertical lines.
Background:
The lines do NOT show up in a screen capture. They must be generated in the hardware. The attached images were taken with a camera.
The PC is a Dell Precision Work Station 370 running Windows XP SP3. The monitor is a Dell 2709W active matrix TFT LCD. The monitor runs at its native 1900x1200 32-bit color mode.
I think it is something inside the PC. I've seen similar bars using the same PC with two different graphics cards (one ATI and one nVidia) and two different Dell monitors.
I have tried resetting the monitor to its factory defaults - no effect.
Thanks,
Pete
PC-Screen-with-Lines.jpg
PC-Screen-with-Lines---Close-up.jpg
The lines occur at about 89.9% across the screen from the left edge or about horizontal pixel 1725 of 1900.
I'd like to figure out how to eliminate the vertical lines.
Background:
The lines do NOT show up in a screen capture. They must be generated in the hardware. The attached images were taken with a camera.
The PC is a Dell Precision Work Station 370 running Windows XP SP3. The monitor is a Dell 2709W active matrix TFT LCD. The monitor runs at its native 1900x1200 32-bit color mode.
I think it is something inside the PC. I've seen similar bars using the same PC with two different graphics cards (one ATI and one nVidia) and two different Dell monitors.
I have tried resetting the monitor to its factory defaults - no effect.
Thanks,
Pete
PC-Screen-with-Lines.jpg
PC-Screen-with-Lines---Close-up.jpg
tjc123
Have you taken the same monitor to different PCs and had the same problem? How about using different monitors on the same PC to eliminate the PC as the culprit?
ASKER
Same monitor on a different PC works fine with no lines.
Have used two different Dell monitors with this PC and seen the same problem.
Have used two different Dell monitors with this PC and seen the same problem.
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ASKER
It's well beyond even the extended warranty at this point. Good idea about the integrated video although there is none on this machine.
The motherboard does seem a logical candidate. Any idea, though, why the lines would go away after a half hour? Anything to look for or try to fix on the motherboard? Or is it just something to be accepted and lived with until the entire PC is replaced?
The motherboard does seem a logical candidate. Any idea, though, why the lines would go away after a half hour? Anything to look for or try to fix on the motherboard? Or is it just something to be accepted and lived with until the entire PC is replaced?
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Hi dbrunton,
Some good suggestions, thanks.
Probably not the PSU. That was replaced a couple of years ago and this problem has been hanging around longer than that. (Yeah - it took a while to get up to the "front burner.")
I'll definitely give the cleaning tips a try. For some reason that PC does gather dust a lot. By the way - something that works better than a paper tissue, especially on gold contacts, is a soft pencil eraser. Erasing the leads removes dirt film. Just wipe or air blow off the eraser residue after erasing. I learned this early in my engineering days.
It will probably take some days for me to get to this. I'll do an update with the findings.
Given the age of the PC it probably is within a year of complete replacement so that is a more likely path than finding a new motherboard.
Pete
Some good suggestions, thanks.
Probably not the PSU. That was replaced a couple of years ago and this problem has been hanging around longer than that. (Yeah - it took a while to get up to the "front burner.")
I'll definitely give the cleaning tips a try. For some reason that PC does gather dust a lot. By the way - something that works better than a paper tissue, especially on gold contacts, is a soft pencil eraser. Erasing the leads removes dirt film. Just wipe or air blow off the eraser residue after erasing. I learned this early in my engineering days.
It will probably take some days for me to get to this. I'll do an update with the findings.
Given the age of the PC it probably is within a year of complete replacement so that is a more likely path than finding a new motherboard.
Pete
SOLUTION
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Hello Pete2009 y et al,
Wow, this is an interesting one.
Given that time is the determining factor, then hardware is a very good bet. Heat related problems fall into two general classifications:
1. Capacitors
2. Expansion
CAPACITORS:
If this system was built between 2005 and 2008, then you could be facing the 'bad caps' symptom (Just Google ‘capacitor plague’). This is where the top of the capacitors are popped up and not flat as they should be; most of time the ‘pop up’ is pretty noticeable, but if they are not FLAT, then you have a problem. May I suggest that you inspect all of the caps on the motherboard and make sure they all have 'flat tops'.
EXPANSION:
Next on the list would be weak soldering connections with the GPU. Heat also causes 'expansion', thus better connections and the symptom goes away. Senior Nobus has a very nice setup for re-soldering the GPU chip to the mobo - so that you know, this process is not for the 'faint of heart', but Nobus' solution is pretty simple to use.
MOTHERBOARD:
I have had very good luck buying used motherboards for Dell computers, so weight the factors and see if the cost of a used mobo floats to the top.
Please keep us posted.
Rojosho
Wow, this is an interesting one.
Given that time is the determining factor, then hardware is a very good bet. Heat related problems fall into two general classifications:
1. Capacitors
2. Expansion
CAPACITORS:
If this system was built between 2005 and 2008, then you could be facing the 'bad caps' symptom (Just Google ‘capacitor plague’). This is where the top of the capacitors are popped up and not flat as they should be; most of time the ‘pop up’ is pretty noticeable, but if they are not FLAT, then you have a problem. May I suggest that you inspect all of the caps on the motherboard and make sure they all have 'flat tops'.
EXPANSION:
Next on the list would be weak soldering connections with the GPU. Heat also causes 'expansion', thus better connections and the symptom goes away. Senior Nobus has a very nice setup for re-soldering the GPU chip to the mobo - so that you know, this process is not for the 'faint of heart', but Nobus' solution is pretty simple to use.
MOTHERBOARD:
I have had very good luck buying used motherboards for Dell computers, so weight the factors and see if the cost of a used mobo floats to the top.
Please keep us posted.
Rojosho
Pete2009,
I forgot to mention, Memory DIMMs or Memory Slots. I would suggest using only ONE DIMM and try moving it around the different DIMMs slots to remove this variable; with one DIMM, you should be able to boot normally.
Finally, since 'cold' creates the problem, have you considered using a compressed can, turning it upside down and use it to cool down the CPU, Memory and GPU after the problem goes away - you know, to see if you can bring it back.... something to think about.
BTW, at HP, we use to use the eraser method for many years, until the gold contacts came out. Our Repair Facility in Roseville proved with their electron microscopes that this method actually removes the gold plating.... just an FYI.
Rojosho
I forgot to mention, Memory DIMMs or Memory Slots. I would suggest using only ONE DIMM and try moving it around the different DIMMs slots to remove this variable; with one DIMM, you should be able to boot normally.
Finally, since 'cold' creates the problem, have you considered using a compressed can, turning it upside down and use it to cool down the CPU, Memory and GPU after the problem goes away - you know, to see if you can bring it back.... something to think about.
BTW, at HP, we use to use the eraser method for many years, until the gold contacts came out. Our Repair Facility in Roseville proved with their electron microscopes that this method actually removes the gold plating.... just an FYI.
Rojosho
ASKER
An update! The PC is now the cleanest inside that it has been in years; I did:
* R&R graphics card, cleaned fan & contacts (with photo lens paper!) & connector
* R&R all four memory DIMMs, cleaned as above
* blew and vacuumed CPU heat sink, Power Supply, rest of PC
* inspected caps on motherboard. All seem fine except for one cap near the memory DIMM slots whose top has a slight bulge although no leakage.
No change. Lines appear when PC turns on and disappear after about 30 minutes.
The other troubleshooting ideas make sense if I would do something about it - e.g. replace a motherboard or re-solder components.
The PC was purchased in September 2004 so it is 8+ years old now. I see that motherboards may be available for about $60 used to $150 new. But I'm not too inclined to do that at this point.
If anyone has more ideas about cleaning or R&R or other similar types of steps, please let me know. But if we've narrowed it down to a motherboard needing replacement, it will probably be the entire PC that gets replaced.
Pete
* R&R graphics card, cleaned fan & contacts (with photo lens paper!) & connector
* R&R all four memory DIMMs, cleaned as above
* blew and vacuumed CPU heat sink, Power Supply, rest of PC
* inspected caps on motherboard. All seem fine except for one cap near the memory DIMM slots whose top has a slight bulge although no leakage.
No change. Lines appear when PC turns on and disappear after about 30 minutes.
The other troubleshooting ideas make sense if I would do something about it - e.g. replace a motherboard or re-solder components.
The PC was purchased in September 2004 so it is 8+ years old now. I see that motherboards may be available for about $60 used to $150 new. But I'm not too inclined to do that at this point.
If anyone has more ideas about cleaning or R&R or other similar types of steps, please let me know. But if we've narrowed it down to a motherboard needing replacement, it will probably be the entire PC that gets replaced.
Pete
>> whose top has a slight bulge although no leakage << then you have bad caps, and they need to be repalced ALL,
if you can solder, the cost is about 10-15$
what mobo model is it?
also look for bad caps on the video card !
if you can solder, the cost is about 10-15$
what mobo model is it?
also look for bad caps on the video card !
Hey Pete2009,
Here are some interesting URLs on the topic of 'bad caps'.
The begining of this one gives you a pretty good idea of what to look for in marginal looking bad caps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDGjWOabJ2E
And here is a URL for the 'Bad Caps' home front. It is pretty good if you are new to the idea of replacing components:
http://www.badcaps.net/
Good Luck,
Rojosho...
Here are some interesting URLs on the topic of 'bad caps'.
The begining of this one gives you a pretty good idea of what to look for in marginal looking bad caps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDGjWOabJ2E
And here is a URL for the 'Bad Caps' home front. It is pretty good if you are new to the idea of replacing components:
http://www.badcaps.net/
Good Luck,
Rojosho...
ASKER
Hi everyone,
This is fantastic input. I understand about the capacitors and the videos with the pix was really useful.
Realizing that the PC is within a year or less of being replaced due to age, speed, capability, one immediate question is whether the one apparently defective capacitor on the motherboard could be causing the lines on the monitor display for the first half hour of on-time?
I realize the caps themselves are inexpensive although it will take a fair bit of time to remove and replace the motherboard. The soldering is not much of an issue. I started my career as a hardware/software design engineer. I just don't know that it's worth the time/effort given that the PC is so close to replacement. But if the cap is likely to be causing the lines then it might be worth trying it. (Or calling Dell sooner rather than later...)
The caps on the graphics card seem fine. And as I mentioned initially this problem has been present through two different graphics cards.
This is fantastic input. I understand about the capacitors and the videos with the pix was really useful.
Realizing that the PC is within a year or less of being replaced due to age, speed, capability, one immediate question is whether the one apparently defective capacitor on the motherboard could be causing the lines on the monitor display for the first half hour of on-time?
I realize the caps themselves are inexpensive although it will take a fair bit of time to remove and replace the motherboard. The soldering is not much of an issue. I started my career as a hardware/software design engineer. I just don't know that it's worth the time/effort given that the PC is so close to replacement. But if the cap is likely to be causing the lines then it might be worth trying it. (Or calling Dell sooner rather than later...)
The caps on the graphics card seem fine. And as I mentioned initially this problem has been present through two different graphics cards.
>> is whether the one apparently defective capacitor on the motherboard could be causing the lines on the monitor display for the first half hour of on-time?
Won't know until you try. It may be worth doing as an experiment but I'd wait until you buy the new machine. Note if you replace one cap, replace the lot.
Won't know until you try. It may be worth doing as an experiment but I'd wait until you buy the new machine. Note if you replace one cap, replace the lot.
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ASKER
Hi guys,
I'm curious about something. Two of you have mentioned that if one cap is replaced then all need to be replaced. It seems that if one is defective and no longer serving its filtering function then only that one needs to be replaced. Or is there precedent with these cap problems that the other caps probably aren't too far behind the one that is presently bulging?
Rojosho - being trained as a design and systems engineer and now being a business person I resonate extremely strongly with your technical vs. business solution. The time includes the time to R&R the mobo and R&R the caps. I'll read up on Dell's instructions about R&R the motherboard. I'm leaning towards business solution and will think about it over the next day as I plow snow here in the northeastern USA.
Pete
I'm curious about something. Two of you have mentioned that if one cap is replaced then all need to be replaced. It seems that if one is defective and no longer serving its filtering function then only that one needs to be replaced. Or is there precedent with these cap problems that the other caps probably aren't too far behind the one that is presently bulging?
Rojosho - being trained as a design and systems engineer and now being a business person I resonate extremely strongly with your technical vs. business solution. The time includes the time to R&R the mobo and R&R the caps. I'll read up on Dell's instructions about R&R the motherboard. I'm leaning towards business solution and will think about it over the next day as I plow snow here in the northeastern USA.
Pete
>> Or is there precedent with these cap problems that the other caps probably aren't too far behind the one that is presently bulging?
Yep. Dell Optiplex had these problems. If one went the others weren't too far behind. See http://www.monkey.org/~blandoon/gfx/caps/ for some pics. If you really want lots of information then badcaps.net has it all.
Yep. Dell Optiplex had these problems. If one went the others weren't too far behind. See http://www.monkey.org/~blandoon/gfx/caps/ for some pics. If you really want lots of information then badcaps.net has it all.
for many models, the capacitor kits were even sold on the net
as for replacing the board - note that probably you buy the same capacitors, but they may run till the PC is replaced
and you can find several shops on the net offering to replace them for a standard fee
as for replacing the board - note that probably you buy the same capacitors, but they may run till the PC is replaced
and you can find several shops on the net offering to replace them for a standard fee
ASKER
Hi everyone,
You all have been extremely helpful in looking for causes of the monitor lines and considering the options. And educating me about the capacitor issues!
Ultimately two factors heavily influenced my decision. (1) The age of the unit, 8+ years, and that the primary user already comments about slowness especially when recalculating very large spreadsheets. (2) While the cap or mobo replacement job is well within my technical capabilities I've never done it so it would be time consuming and we're not sure it would solve the specific monitor lines problem.
I've decided to take what rojosho called the business solution - replace the PC with a new Dell machine. I'll have to look into their current lines, and probably open some other questions about that.
Now is when I wish I had more than 500 points available. All four of you have been very helpful so I plan to pick one response from each of you and share the points.
Pete
You all have been extremely helpful in looking for causes of the monitor lines and considering the options. And educating me about the capacitor issues!
Ultimately two factors heavily influenced my decision. (1) The age of the unit, 8+ years, and that the primary user already comments about slowness especially when recalculating very large spreadsheets. (2) While the cap or mobo replacement job is well within my technical capabilities I've never done it so it would be time consuming and we're not sure it would solve the specific monitor lines problem.
I've decided to take what rojosho called the business solution - replace the PC with a new Dell machine. I'll have to look into their current lines, and probably open some other questions about that.
Now is when I wish I had more than 500 points available. All four of you have been very helpful so I plan to pick one response from each of you and share the points.
Pete
Hey Pete2009,
Thank you for the update.
BTW, 4 goes into 500 very nicely :)
Work forward to working you in the future.
Rojosho...
Thank you for the update.
BTW, 4 goes into 500 very nicely :)
Work forward to working you in the future.
Rojosho...