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Zero Point Energy

Posted on 2014-01-19
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Hi to everyone,

I would like to know your opinion about a real device which produces energy from vacuum.
I know there are thousands of articles and claims on the subject, but I am talking about the real made device, free to be re-made, re-tested by everyone who can reproduce it. Even if it implies some technical knowledge, does not seem so difficult to be replicated.
More difficult is to understand the physics behind, even if it is well described by a university teacher. The theory behind is also free for the public.

It is about Claus W. Turtur from Germany (University of Applied Sciences Braunschweig-Wolfenbuettel).

Please have a look and let me have your comments. It is not a hoax.

http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=219
http://www.gsjournal.net/old/physics/turtur1e.pdf
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:_Claus_W._Turtur:_Zero_Point_Energy_Converter_in_the_Kilowatt_Range
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Question by:viki2000
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by:nobus
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hi viki - very interesting theory; i'd like to see it proven in the field
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by:ozo
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While the concept of vacuum energy is real enough, the suggested methods of extracting useful work out of it seem speculative and confused.
It seems likely that the results depicted are due to conventional effects and that claims of net energy gain are erroneous.
If someone wants to try it and does does manage to produce useful results, that would be incredibly awesome, both practically and theoretically,
but I'm not holding my breath for it.
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by:tliotta
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The PESWiki article is now almost three years old, and it features a description of a 'machine' that appears simple enough to build for an average machinist. Yet it seems that no one has actually managed to do it.

Tom
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by:d-glitch
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It may not be a hoax if Prof Turtur believes what he is saying.
But it can still be an honest (and stubborn) mistake.

Apparently, his university has told him to spend his time elsewhere.
     http://www.ostfalia.de/cms/de/pws/turtur/FundE/English/
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by:dhsindy
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Some interesting reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_point_energy

under the History section the second equation indicates there exists +hv/2 energy between thermodynamic zero and absolute zero.  But, it is so small as to be impractical it seems.  Seems real enough in theory but is probably far in the future.
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aburr earned 300 total points
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There is just too much information showing that free energy is not possible to believe the contrary without proof.
As a physicist I can say that unfortunately some physicists are wrong. if you suggest something really new unusually persuasive proof is needed,. That is not the case here.
Note that the plans for a 1KW generator have been available for years yet none actually built. If one were, the world would be full of them by now.
Below are some (edited) Internet comments on this subject
(My comment in bold italicd)

ZPE_Turtur kW Project Forum
·      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ZPE_Turtur/ - A forum to discuss the open sourcing of Prof. Dr. Claus W. Turtur's proposed 1 kilowatt range zero point energy technology which links mechanical and magnetic oscillation into synchronicity. The objective will be to build, replicate, characterize, optimize, improve, and eventually commercialize this technology. (Launched by PES, Feb. 9, 2011)
·      note: "Proposed".    Note: no example has been constructed after years of open source effort

Other Discussions on this Topic
·      Vacuum Energy Source- [mostly mindless chatter] (Reject the Herd; June 29, 2009)

Progam calculating 1 KW output
On February 15, 2011 11:21 AM MST, Andrzej Pruszynski of Switzerland wrote:
I did check Professor Turtur progam calculating 1 KW output from a rotating magnet / coil setup. I had to convert it first from Pasca (found in one of PDF documents he produced) to Lua in order to be able to play with parameters. Alas his program contains a flaw in integration of results. This is why when you lower the integration step (dt) to 10, 100 or 1000 smaller value, the effect of energy generation vanishes.
He did post today his own compiled program and parameter sheet:
http://www.ostfalia.de/cms/de/pws/turtur/FundE/English/New_DFEM-Algo.html
You can try by yourself and play with 'dt' value, but it seems that there is no easy way to get this ZPE strait-on.
I alerted professor Turtur about it, but he said he has no time to look into there before end of March. This is a way too late, for potential experimenter loosing his time and money.

note: "Program" not model   note: no time for correction

Contact
Prof. Dr. Claus W. Turtur
Email: c-w.turtur@ostfalia.de (doesn't check very often, and now that it's getting innundated, he doesn't respond at all, per the following message.
Received March 04, 2011 1:18 AM in response to an email sent February 13, 2011 2:48 PM
"Dear colleagues, Dear friends, I am very sorry that I have to ask you for indulgence: Due to massive overload, I am not able to read or to answer Emails since January 2011. There are too many Emails, and I do not have anybody to help me. In this situation I have no other choice, I must beg your pardon that I cannot write an answer for you.
"Cordial greetings, Claus Turtur"
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by:viki2000
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Unfortunately I could not find recent news in English.
On 24.Nov.2012 Dr. Prof. Claus W. Turtur presented a lecture about his work at AZK (Anti Zensur Konferenz = anti censorship conference). It is only in German language.

http://www.anti-zensur.info/index.php?page=azk8#

Did you think at the implications of everyone having free energy devices home?
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by:aburr
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"Unfortunately I could not find recent news in English.
On 24.Nov.2012 Dr. Prof. Claus W. Turtur presented a lecture about his work at AZK (Anti Zensur Konferenz = anti censorship conference). It is only in German language."

There are several reasons for that. Note: the "anti-censorship" in the title. One implication is that he is having a hard time being heard. (for good reason)

http://www.anti-zensur.info/index.php?page=azk8#

"Did you think at the implications of everyone having free energy devices home? "

Certainly. If true, it will change the economy of the world greatly, immediately and in unimaginable ways.
If true.   But it has not been shown to be true.
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by:tliotta
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Assuming it could be made to work, I'm not convinced it should be considered "free energy". Why can't it simply be extracting from an energy source?

Tom
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by:viki2000
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The words "free energy" are used not in the sense of perpetual motion against the known laws of thermodynamics, about which everyone is aware or should be. Definitely is not the case of the university physics teacher.

The collocation "free energy" is used with the next sense: free of conventional sources used to transform/produce energy, to not be dependent of grid or expensive sources as gas, petrol, or special expensive equipment with special locations: water, wind, even solar energy, which is not everywhere available, not the entire day, year, and has to be stored.

The idea of "free energy" is to have a device, if is possible portable or easy to be moved for low power, somehow independent of any conventional sources.
Many have tried unsuccessful all kind of devices, since hundreds of years ago , but starting with electromagnetic era there is an explosion of trials, sometimes using a mix of forces: electromagnetic most of the time, then also gravity and also the forces inside the atoms: weak or strong force.

Of course is not about energy coming from nowhere. It has a source and the source is everywhere around, even in vacuum, that's why is free.

There are other expensive projects since good years, based for instance on fusion:
https://life.llnl.gov/what_is_life/index.php
https://lasers.llnl.gov/science_technology/fusion_science/
https://lasers.llnl.gov/programs/nic/icf/

When is "free", a device easy to be made and affordable for each person, there are no investors interested to your idea.
Remember Tesla with his tower?
He wanted the same: free energy to everyone. Then the investments stopped and the tower was demolished.
The idea is the same here.

If we think generally about any "free energy" device, not particularly about Turtur and his device, not being dependent by grid will not make some important people happy.
That's why there is no interest about such ideas. That's why there is no investor to brand and patent such ideas.
Do you see any other good reason?
Normally should be Noble Prise for such discovery.

The fusion project, also in France, with huge investments, makes sense because everyone will be dependent by grid again.

Or at smaller scale in Germany (Wendelstein 7-X):
http://www.iter.org/doc/www/content/com/Lists/Stories/Attachments/680/ITER_W7X.pdf
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by:tliotta
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I was not thinking of "free" in the sense of no consumer purchase necessary for energy usage, but rather in the apparent sense of a statement such as this one:
There is just too much information showing that free energy is not possible to believe the contrary without proof.
Energy usage is already "free" for consumers through means such as solar cells. A century ago, those were not "conventional".

So, I'm interested in why a physicist (rather than an economist) would resist the idea. I understand well enough that apparent violations of the laws of thermodynamics are necessarily suspect. But I'm not at all clear why they are not enthusiastically investigated as long as we know our current models are incomplete.

Tom
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by:viki2000
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by:viki2000
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I posed these information because I felt that I miss something.
If you look at http://peswiki.com website, seems like a race.
Not all the info from there may be real, true, but some are incredible, at least as effort, money.

For instance look at.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:RAR_Energia_Ltda_Gravity_Motor

especially here:
http://www.rarenergia.com.br/

Or this one:
http://pesn.com/2014/01/22/9602427_Platinum-Invests_presents_worlds-first_free-energy-car_and_plane/

People meet to put their  the ideas together:
http://globalbem.com/stream/
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by:aburr
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At the end of the paper he says that he has not had time to build a demonstration of his ideas.

Note that at the beginning of his paper he says that the, then new idea, of a vacuum was accepted because the originator gave an impressive public demonstration of the new idea (yet he is too busy to repeat that process)
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by:viki2000
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What thrills me is not Turtur or other guy in particular, but this race, brainstorming of ideas and trials, which will change our world in the next 25-50 years for sure.
Just look at the next one for instance, a Turkish inventor, has a patent, a real device, goes to the exhibitions...and lately are many like him in different countries.
It is like a door was open for human kind. The ideas are ready to become reality.

Look here, this time a pure magnetic motor:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Muammer_Yildiz_Magnet_Motor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOyuZSzkWRU
http://www.bsmhturk.com/gallery/documents/documents.html
http://www.bsmhturk.com/gallery/videos/videos.html
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by:aburr
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"What thrills me is not Turtur or other guy in particular, but this race, brainstorming of ideas and trials, which will change our world in the next 25-50 years for sure.
Just look at the next one for instance, a Turkish inventor, has a patent, a real device, goes to the exhibitions...and lately are many like him in different countries.
It is like a door was open for human kind. The ideas are ready to become reality"
-
There is a question here?
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by:viki2000
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The question is the same as in the beginning:
- how do you see these things which seem to transform our future, our world in the next 25-50 years?
Actually I asked first: what is your opinion about them?
I started with Turtur, but that is only one example among many.

Is anybody here giving credit to at least some of these trials?
Did you notice that the world is about to change again from technological point of view, which will affect our simply daily life regarding the energy?
Of course you can say is a continuous change with scientific discoveries and new technologies, but this is different.

How do you see the impact over the common person, simple citizen, of being independent of the electrical grid?
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by:nobus
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the impact would be enormous, even if they were not completely independent imo.
if every house has a 1-10 Kw generator like this...+ an energy independent house ...wow..
i simply can't imagine the way things would evolve
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by:aburr
aburr earned 300 total points
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- how do you see these things which seem to transform our future, our world in the next 25-50 years?
"Actually I asked first: what is your opinion about them?"
That they are overstated and basically not true   (That is, all the scientific evidence shows that they should not be believed)

I started with Turtur, but that is only one example among many.

"Is anybody here giving credit to at least some of these trials?"
You will always find some people who believe,
-

"Did you notice that the world is about to change again from technological point of view, which will affect our simply daily life regarding the energy?"
The world may be about to change (indeed it has) but not because of free energy

"Of course you can say is a continuous change with scientific discoveries and new technologies, but this is different."
It is indeed different   Another set of unreproducible experiments of which there are a large number in this and other fields

-
"How do you see the impact over the common person, simple citizen, of being independent of the electrical grid?"
  It would indeed be a world shaking change. But do not hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

Cheap energy would make a lot of people rich. Why is it not (because it is not cheap)
You think there is an industrial conspiracy preventing development? No industry is that strong. You think the China would not develop it to put the west out of business?!?
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by:viki2000
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Actually I do not believe this time in a conspiracy, even if  will be a big impact over the electricity industrial sector, which means somebody will try to do something to protect that interest.

I rather think we do not see the real products on the market soon only because is that relation: inventor-investor with the profit behind.
A patented device, so not the technology, protects somehow the producer, the investor, up to a certain extent, but as you said, in China or other cheap labor countries will be copied and so far there is no international legislation to protect the investor.
The money that the investor wants to gain, to become reach, will be only based on local markets where he is protected by local laws. Eventually a small fee may be obtained in the future from maintenance.
Other than that the investor makes money only by selling the product mostly one time to certain person or group of persons, because it supposed to be a long lasting product with very low maintenance.
 

China will not necessarily put the west out of the business. I can see that today with different products. It is a question of quality vs. quantity. For many products which come from China, when you see quality, then most probably behind is a company from west.

I am just thinking: if you would be the investor with 10 mil USD in the pocket and you are ready to invest in such future design, why would you do it?
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by:Herman D'Hondt
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I'm afraid this will turn out to be another scam like Rossi's E-Cat. Free energy is usually anything but free.

Yes, zero point energy (or vacuum energy) does exist. While we do not yet have any good answer to the amount of it that is available, indications are that it will be very small, and very difficult to access. See Casimir effect for some details.

I do hope I'm wrong on this. It would be nice to be able to extract non-polluting energy straight from the vacuum. It would be even nicer if we could extract it in space, in a form that's usable for propulsion. I don't hold out much hope though.
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by:Herman D'Hondt
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I had a look at the article that gives "definite proof of the conversion of vacuum energy". The abstract states:

This proof was brought with the experiment reported here, whereby an electrical power loss of (2.87+/-0.89)nanowatts is seen in comparison with a produced mechanical engine power of approx.(150+/-50)nanowatts, so that at least the difference is taken from vacuum-energy for sure.
Measuring such incredibly small amounts of power is very difficult, and I would not be the least surprised that there are unaccounted errors there.

The statement that "at least the difference is taken from vacuum-energy for sure" is not qualified in any way. It is no better than saying "I couldn't think of anything else".

As I said in my earlier comment, I'm not very hopeful on this...
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by:nobus
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hope is the only thing left now  :-((
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by:viki2000
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by:Herman D'Hondt
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The JR prize is not for this type of frauds. It is specifically for people claiming supernatural powers. He has included perpetual motion machines (PMM), as per your first link, but Claus Turtur's machine is not a PMM.

PMMs claim to generate energy from nothing. Turtur's system claims to extract energy from the vacuum. We know that vacuum energy is real, but we're uncertain about the amount of it. It is almost certain that it amounts to very little - but that might be very wrong. Either way, it is extremely unlikely that a simple gadget like Turtur's can extract anything from the vacuum.

It would be good if someone could set up a similar prize for these kind of clowns, but it presents problems. The JR prize is safe: nobody has ever been able to demonstrate any supernatural powers, and PMMs are against the most basic laws of physics. A prize for this type of claims is much trickier. You need to really think about the physics of the claim before you can make your prize available
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by:viki2000
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Well pointed, but your observations rise new philosophical and physics questions.
As a simple view I see first a whole world of possibilities open for the new technologies of producing/transforming energy, particular electrical energy.
A deepest view, considering such tricky prize, challenges the words used, the concepts beyond the common accepted definitions.

When you say "PMMs claim to generate energy from nothing." what is "nothing"? Where is "nothing"?
People used to think at vacuum as "nothing" and now we know about energy from that "nothing", which is vacuum.
If you look at some links as:
http://arstechnica.com/science/2010/08/reexamining-the-nature-of-nothing/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/something-from-nothing-vacuum-can-yield-flashes-of-light/
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/6464/does-vacuum-empty-space-exist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_argument

and we read what Einstein said:
"People before me believed that if all the matter in the universe were removed, only space and time would exist. My theory proves that space and time would disappear along with matter."

then the concept of PPM has to be redefined or maybe make no sense and the prize is a nonsense.

On the other hand if we consider a border between what we know and understand now and the unknown which may be discovered in future, applied at different historical moments, then a jury with technical observers may declare PMM valid and real in case the science and technology that they face is beyond what they know.
Imagine the Turtur's machine made and functional at bigger scale and presented to such jury 200 years ago. For them it would be a PMM.
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by:Herman D'Hondt
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PMMs claim to generate energy from nothing
What it means is that energy cannot be created, it can only be converted from one form into another. Motion can be converted into electrical power, mass can be converted into energy, and even the energy of the vacuum may well be extractable - but it may not be worth the effort.

A contraption that extracts energy from the vacuum is not a PMM, because it extracts energy that already exists.
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by:viki2000
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Indeed, but that is a general for any technology which transform energy from one type to another.
Not knowing/detecting the initial source makes the technology for the viewer (and not for the designer) to be a kind of PMM.
For the designer is clear an open system, while for "uninitiated" viewer seems like a close system.
Out of these understanding makes no sense PMM and James Randi prize.
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by:Herman D'Hondt
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A true PMM is one that effectively creates energy. A classic example is the very old idea of water falling onto a wheel, which drives a pump that pushes the water back up. This is impossible because it needs to create new energy.

I know that sometimes it it difficult to see where the energy is coming from. If you know nothing about nuclear energy, then a nuclear reactor creates energy from nothing. Systems like Rossi's E-Cat almost certainly fall into this category. Turtur's machine does not, it claims to use vacuum energy which does exist. However, it is most likely either a mistake or a hoax like Rossi's.

Because it can be difficult to decide whether a system is really a PMM or not, I feel that James Randi should reserve his prize to the supernatural.
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by:viki2000
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Thank you for your input.
I will keep an eye on http://peswiki.com
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