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Spare the rod, spoil the child

Posted on 2014-09-15
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Disciplining children.
Children need to learn discipline.

Spare the rod, spoil the child?

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Question by:SunBow
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by:Paul Sauvé
ID: 40324605
You have been watching too much NFL!
 :-(
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 11 total points
ID: 40325027
Proverbs 22:15
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Do you have children?
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by:SunBow
ID: 40326801
Hmm, how long do they remain children .... when do they begin the heart of the rod?
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by:Paul Sauvé
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ID: 40326838
Luke 6:31  And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Matthew 7:12 So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 11 total points
ID: 40327324
The above refer to relation between adults in society.
The previous refer to relation parents-child, education-corrections.

When the child becomes adult?
Along the history, in different societies, it was a different age.
Today, in most of the societies, the age of 18 is considered a threshold.
Physically, that is an early age, after puberty. For the girls comes sooner than for boys.
In the past people used to marry people even before 18, which now is considered not proper.
I would say, when the person is able to detach from parents, the girls are married, having a husband and presumptive also children then they change from child to adult. The boys when they able to detach from parents and gain their own bread, able to sustain themselves and ready to start a family, that would be a threshold.
That is a rough appreciation, mostly used in the past, but still good enough.
The problem is  a bit more complex.
There are steps in becoming adult: with your body, then emotional and mental.
For example, at Jews, in the past, the age of 30 was considered a man adult mental, able to say a word among the other in the society. That means started to be wise, with a bit of experience, to be able to put in balance situations and judge things.
This is one of reasons why Jesus started His work at the age of 30.
Nowadays, in western society, is a mess.
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by:Paul Sauvé
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ID: 40328325
yes - BUT a shepherd uses a rod to herd his sheep, to guide them.

He does NOT beat the sheep with his rod.

Here is an interesting discussion on the subject: Biblical passages about the spanking of children
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 11 total points
ID: 40329680
"yes - BUT a shepherd uses a rod to herd his sheep, to guide them.
He does NOT beat the sheep with his rod."

Again, that refers to adults, which are able to understand and be responsible of their actions.
It has nothing to do with education.
Then opposite, when parents use only that method, then is totally wrong.
Usually there is a discussion, explanations, repeated in several ways...but there are moments when the child do not understand or does not want to understand, because is testing the border of who is in charge; it is a way of showing and building personality. Then some limits must be imposed and sometimes the physical force must be used. For example the child goes towards the hot oven or towards a precipice, then in advance you tell the child that is wrong, you watch the child, but sometimes does not listen to you and if you care of his/her life then you grab him with your adult force and do not let him/her to die. The same is with education. There must be limits, otherwise when they grow up they will judge you: why did not spank me when I was child, so now I will not suffer due to my bad behavior?
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by:Paul Sauvé
Paul Sauvé earned 10 total points
ID: 40330790
How can anyone say that a shepherd not beating his sheep with his rod only refers to adults. Methinks you are only trying to justify using physical force against children!

Sorry - I was beaten as a child and the only thing I learned from it was to lie so I wouldn't get another beating.

You can teach a child limits without using physical force.

I really can't agree with or condone the beating of children. There is really nothing the Bible or any other Holy Book or anyone else can say that will convince me to change my mind!

I will not make further comments, since I seem to be too intransigent on this matter.
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 11 total points
ID: 40332232
"Sorry - I was beaten as a child and the only thing I learned from it was to lie so I wouldn't get another beating."

Sorry for your bad experience. As a child I got some too...but I do not complain now...some of them were deserved...
The problem is that the parents needs to explain things, they have to trust the children when serious matters are discussed.
Beating the children can have serious bad effects, and should be avoided.
But comes a moment when they want to become the "masters" with no matter what price and then the rules change.
That depends from personality to personality and from parents to parents.
It is true that children learn to lie in order to avoid beating and is "normal". But that shows that only or mostly only beating is the correction method, which is totally wrong.
You, as parent, are not allowed to show anger, force of any type, unless you do not charge the emotional tank of the child with love and kindness, then to explain things repeatedly.
When all good things are tried and the child is stubborn in his/bad behavior, then physical corrections  may be applied.
And never directly from body to body.
The opinions among specialists is even today split.

"You can teach a child limits without using physical force."

Most of the time yes and it should be like that. A child learns a lot better and is educated better when receive love and kindness. When are neglected, especially because the mother has a long job and the father too, then they react and the behavior is not what parents expect. The parents are tired after a long day of work, have no more patience, show no more love and the tension appears. That's why at least one parent, preferably the mother, should stay home with the children and should try all her best to educate them with love.

I really can't agree with or condone the beating of children. There is really nothing the Bible or any other Holy Book or anyone else can say that will convince me to change my mind!

You do not need a Holy Book for that.
You will suddenly change your mind after you have 6-8 children...
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by:tliotta
tliotta earned 19 total points
ID: 40332572
The parents are tired after a long day of work, have no more patience, show no more love and the tension appears.
And that pretty much sums up why physical violence against a child should never be needed. Don't put so much into work that the proper upbringing of a child suffers. If excess attention to work is actually necessary, then having children should be delayed until time is possible. My wife and I both worked, but I made sure we both cut back at least during the first five years of upbringing.  (I probably averaged 20/hrs a week working, and we had a few years of financial hardship. But it was well worth it.)

If pressures of life cause poor upbringing, then the life is being lived wrong. You can't justify poor parenting by saying "But I'm tired from working hard."

Tom
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by:SunBow
ID: 40332795
An 'NFL' example, four year old:
Peterson’s son had pushed another one of Peterson’s children off of a motorbike video game. As punishment, Peterson grabbed a tree branch – which he consistently referred to as a “switch” – removed the leaves and struck the child repeatedly. Peterson also admitted that he administered two different “whoopings” to his son during the visit to Texas. Peterson also expressed regret that his son did not cry – because then, Peterson said, he would have known that the switch was doing more damage than intended. Peterson estimated he “swatted” his son “10 to 15” times, but he’s not sure because he doesn’t “ever count how many pops I give my kids.” I know how being spanked has helped me in my life

The beating allegedly resulted in numerous injuries to the child, including cuts and bruises to the child’s back, buttocks, ankles, legs and scrotum, along with defensive wounds to the child’s hands.

 the child told authorities that “Daddy Peterson hit me on my face.” The child also expressed worry that Peterson would punch him in the face if the child reported the incident to authorities. He also said that he had been hit by a belt and that “there are a lot of belts in Daddy’s closet.” He added that Peterson put leaves in his mouth when he was being hit with the switch while his pants were down. The child told his mother that Peterson “likes belts and switches” and “has a whooping room.”

From: http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/12/exclusive-details-on-adrian-peterson-indictment-charges/ - for story, not the graphics published of wounds

Younger Child
24-year-old unemployed dad Cody Wygant was playing "Aliens Extermination" on his X-box when his son Daymeon started crying. The game requires players to wear a headset.
Wygant told investigators that his 16-month-old son was crying uncontrollably. According to a statement filed in the case, Wygant shared how he placed his hand over his baby's mouth for about three to four minutes until the child looked "exhausted" and "lethargic."
http://www.fashiontimes.com/articles/5399/20140421/dad-killed-infant-son-baby-s-crying-hindered-playing-video.htm
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tliotta earned 19 total points
ID: 40351469
My sister and I, and our younger half brother, had our shares of paddlings, etc., administered with whatever seemed available. Mother seemed to prefer an electric cord, but was rare to give physical punishment. Dad's favorite seemed to be a board from his wood-working area. His method often involved having us go out to select the board we wanted used on us.

I swatted my daughter's behind a few times. My method was to flick my forearm and wrist so that the back of my fingertips kind of snapped in a whiplike fashion. It was always more for a startling effect when I came up behind her as she was doing something that needed to be stopped. I'm not sure if it ever got through the cloth to actually affect the skin, but it almost always made a small snapping sound that had a mental effect from the surprise. I don't think anything like it ever was done by me after diapers were no longer used.

My wife would commonly use a wooden kitchen spoon, also against a diaper and whatever else was worn over it. Not as a "spanking" exactly; but rather only as a noisy swat. She has no violent tendencies; it mostly made a distinct 'popping' sound from the spoon shape that provided nearly all of the actual effect. Her method was used until one accidental application after diapers were no longer worn. She didn't think fast enough and made the mistake. Stung pretty good, I suppose, and that was the end of any physical punishment or deterrence at all. By that time, non-physical punishment, e.g., removal of privileges or assignment of chores, was fully effective anyway.

Tom
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by:dhsindy
dhsindy earned 10 total points
ID: 40355897
Kids are like wild animals that have to be trained - use methods that work, not methods that make the parent feel better.
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by:SunBow
ID: 40360969
Abandoned (3 Days) - > 'good'(?) time to close?

Looks like there's more to be done yet to better define tools, ages, relationships, body parts & injuries, severity, use of alternatives - but it looks like time can begin quite young, but not last throughout life.

4 participants, I for one cannot conclude/summarize that which any well agree to. So it looks like topic with pursuing again at some other date.

Exception, the last two sentences seem similar enough to indicate a form of agreement (help for selecting 'best')(else, min 10 pt ea participant for 13 comments)

fully effective
 methods that work
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by:SunBow
ID: 40360977
Perhaps for one to ask another day:

- examples (more/other)
What are body positions - against wall, table, across lap....
What parts of body struck
What is dress code - bare skin?
Who gets to do it: parents, uncle, nephew, cousin, husband/fiance, grandparent
 - teacher, preacher, coach (sports), officer (ex truant), neighbor, therapist, ...
What is cause: manners, homework (undone), sports, abuse, language, lies, disobedience, theft, ...
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