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"No God Condones This?"

Posted on 2014-09-24
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Concerning ISIL, whatever your own belief or not, what

"No God Condones This??"


(UN quote today)

- or -

Does any God Condone This form of terrorism & brutality?
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Question by:SunBow
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by:ProfessorJimJam
ProfessorJimJam earned 10 total points
ID: 40343570
No Matter what religion you believe in, in simple words. God does not Condone this form of Terrorism and Brutality.
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by:PaulHews
PaulHews earned 10 total points
ID: 40343868
I would suggest that modern religions do not condone genocide. Old time religions, which were little more than tribal scribblings, are full of it.

So God in the Bible in Samuel 15 says:
And Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” So Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand men on foot, and ten thousand men of Judah. And Saul came to the city of Amalek and lay in wait in the valley.

It isn't really until the new testament that we start getting suggestions that we should treat our enemies like people of our own tribe. In my eyes, this is a progression from a tribal morality to something a little more universal. I think the people of ISIL are stuck in the older, tribal modality.

When people question what God is up to, allowing people to commit genocide, we're told God doesn't like to intervene. The Nazis, with the slogan "Gott mit uns" put to death millions of God's "chosen people" for the crime of belonging to the wrong tribe. God works in mysterious ways, or more likely, doesn't work at all.
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by:Herman D'Hondt
ID: 40349070
Indeed, modern religions do not condone violence. However...

Fundamentalist muslims and christians believe in a literal interpretation of their books, the Quran and the Bible. If you do that, you will find dozens of examples where god not only condones, but actively commands his followers to commit murder, rape and genocide. PaulHews has already given an example, but here is another one. God ordered Moses to kill the male Midianites, as well as the non-virgin women. The virgins, however, they were to "keep for themselves:

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

The Abrahamic god (the god of both Bible and Quran) is not a gentle god. He is cruel, brutal and extremely jealous. In his eyes, believing in another god is the worst offence you can commit. It fully deserves extermination.

So I'm afraid that Obama was wrong on this. It's our modern, secular morality that objects to such acts, not god.
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Author Comment

by:SunBow
ID: 40351165
hmm, interestingly the UN Security Council concurred unanimously. Nations agreeing:

UN Security Council
http://www.un.org/en/sc/members/
The Council is composed of 15 Members:

five permanent members: China, France, Russian
Federation, the United Kingdom, and the United States,
and ten non-permanent members elected for two-year terms
by the General Assembly (with end of term date):
Argentina (2014)
Australia (2014)
Chad (2015)
Chile (2015)
Jordan (2015)
Lithuania (2015)
Luxembourg (2014)
Nigeria (2015)
Republic of Korea (2014)
Rwanda (2014)
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LVL 38

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by:Herman D'Hondt
Herman D'Hondt earned 10 total points
ID: 40353678
I suspect they were all considering modern, mainstream religions, which indeed do not condone violence. And, they do not get those newfangled ideas from their holy books, they get them from modern, secular ideas.

Interestingly in the current context, from my very limited knowledge of the Quran it would appear that it contains less violence than the Bible.
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LVL 16

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by:dhsindy
dhsindy earned 10 total points
ID: 40355865
It all comes down to who has the power and the where with all to enforce their will - it's my way or the highway - seems to be everyone's motto. Those in power enforce the laws as they see fit. It seems mankind has always been able to find a way to justify what they want to do, or at least the leaders and politicians have.
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LVL 27

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by:tliotta
tliotta earned 10 total points
ID: 40372493
IMO, God doesn't care much one way or the other. He/She already fully understands that {this} life is briefly temporary and a vanishingly tiny part of eternity. All forms of human activity are expected and potentially even 'necessary' for His/Her "plan" to unfold.

For 'soldiers' of ISIL (or ISIS or whatever it is at the moment), many, perhaps most, sincerely believe they are acting on behalf of 'the one true God' and that they are honoring Him/Her by doing so. They are taught in relative isolation by Imams and others who are the real problem for Westerners; there are differences between the teachers and the students. The 'soldiers' have nothing but a heritage of generations of misery to base their world view on. They believe that the West is within the heart of evil. How could God condemn them if they're sincere in their beliefs?

IMO, God not only condones it but also encourages it. The whole situation could be cleared up by God if God wanted things to change.

Tom
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by:Herman D'Hondt
Herman D'Hondt earned 10 total points
ID: 40372560
@tliotta

If there is a god, s/he created a universe so large that there are more than a trillion stars for every human alive at present. It will take more than a little convincing to make me believe that such a god would be interested in the behaviour of individual humans!

Add to that the fact that Sunnis and Shiites (or for that matter, Catholics and Protestants) cannot agree about the exact will of god, and what do you have left? Just what we have been doing for millennia: making each other's life a misery, instead of getting together and improve everyone's life.
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LVL 38

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by:PaulHews
PaulHews earned 10 total points
ID: 40373763
It may be worth mentioning that Obama's message was a call for tolerance of moderate Muslims. Bush's rhetoric led many to view the war on terror as a Christian crusade (by using the word crusade over and over.) Probably the current administration wants some distance from that POV.
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Accepted Solution

by:
tliotta earned 10 total points
ID: 40379023
For most of the current conflict and apparently more so as more time passes, moderate Muslims have been our best allies in whatever it is that we're trying to do. It seems best to encourage tolerance for them, not to mention some rational support (while minimizing things that have been causes of the problem; I don't know how to tell how well we've backed off from making things worse).

Tom
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Expert Comment

by:tliotta
ID: 40379035
@hdhondt: I pretty much agree. To make it more unlikely, the essential confirmations of "dark matter/energy" puts us even farther down the scale by showing that what we perceive and experience is only about as much as 5% of what the universe actually is. All those galaxies with all of their stars are just a minor bunch of dust in the corners, and we're one of the tiniest bits of that dust.

Tom
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LVL 38

Expert Comment

by:Herman D'Hondt
ID: 40379044
@tliotta

Islam is no better or worse than any other religion: most of the followers are normal, decent people but you get the odd nut case who thinks his (it's usually a he) book is the literal truth and must be followed to the letter of his interpretation.

Muslims need to be treated like any other person, be they catholic, protestant, gay, black, brown etc. I expect them to treat me in the same way. We're all just people and we need to learn to live together.
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Author Comment

by:SunBow
ID: 40401018
[Abandoned (14 Days)]
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Author Closing Comment

by:SunBow
ID: 40508131
Nice, lively discussion, TY

It/there appears concurrence that
No God Condones This
 - or
No God (currently, actively) Condones This
 5-0 tally

All comments , contributions seem equal enough, 10 pt ea participant

Now am caught up, in this TA, none open, fixing that
Observation, only Christmas thread - off to Lounge
Footnote: do make no conclusion for no pts on last comment, it only due to nature of speading points, 5 ea comment or 10 ea expert; I consider it of high value
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