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review on gaming machine...

Posted on 2014-10-15
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can you help me review between these 2 gaming machines:

(both give free tablet.. hence a bias to consider now before thanksgiving holiday sale)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883227580&cm_re=i7-4790K-_-83-227-580-_-Product

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883227579&cm_re=iBUYPOWER_ssd-_-83-227-579-_-Product

would you say the addition 120GB ssd is worth it for the additional money?

overall, is this a decent purchase (value for money). my main thought was if this would be worth waiting till nov holidays.

i would appreciate your input.

(should i also look in dell and other name brands for gaming machine.. do they specialize enough in gaming machines as much as consumer regular workstations?)
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Question by:25112
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by:akb
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ID: 40383598
I would definitely get one with a SSD. This will make a fantastic improvement to the speed and performance of the machine.
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by:25112
ID: 40383613
ok. as long as the program installed does not use more than 100GB of drive space, then the 120GB SSD should be OK, right?
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by:Frosty555
Frosty555 earned 39 total points
ID: 40383616
Both systems are very good value-for-money but the Phantom Series one is a no brainer.  The video card is MUCH faster, almost 300% faster, and that SSD will be important for speed.

On a modern gaming computer, you usually do not have to even consider the CPU or Memory. While they are important, most modern computers like these ones already have those specs jacked up so high that they will not be a bottleneck or any major cause for concern for years to come.

Instead, on a modern gaming computer the main things you need to look at are video card, and hard disk performance.

 - A better video card translates directly into better FPS in games.
 - A better hard drive translates into a quicker more responsive overall experience when using the computer for non-gaming tasks, and faster loading times.

You will need to ask yourself how much data you need to store, and is 120GB enough for your needs. 120GB is enough for an operating system, a few programs like MS Office, maybe one or two games, and personal documents. Not much else. Games and movies take up a lot of room and you will very quickly discover you are out of space and you ahve to store some of your data on the slower 500GB drive. Juggling the data on the two drives might be cumbersome and annoying.

If 120GB is really insufficient you need to ask yourself if THIS system is worth it, or if it would be better to splurge on a bigger hard drive, or buy something else entirely. The IDEAL system, imho, is the Phantom Series computer with the 120GB+500GB hard drives removed, and instead replaced with a Samsung Evo 500GB SSD, but that is of course more expensive and you'll have these extra hard disks floating around that were a waste of money. You'll need to decide if that's worth it.
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 383 total points
ID: 40383691
Take the SSD.
It is a lot faster, especially used with WIN8 64bits.
Few words about SSD:
- higher capacity for SSD gives slightly better speed.
- if it is too expensive for you 500GB as proposed above, then instead of 120GB you may purchase 250GB, the price difference is not so high compared with 120GB.
- When you buy Samsung 840 series, then are 3 models: SAMSUNG 840, then SAMSUNG 840 PRO and SAMSUNG 840 EVO.
For specs and benchmarks use next site and choose Samsung for Manufacturer, then you can compare what models you want to see the differences:
http://www.ssdreview.com/review/solid-state-ssd/


If you really want to improve the speed of your machine, then buy more RAM. Instead of 8GB take 16GB or more if you can. Then use a software named RAMDisk (http://memory.dataram.com/products-and-services/software/ramdisk/ramdisk-gaming ). You will then use a part of the RAM as a disk, lot's faster than SSD. Will help a lot.
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by:nobus
ID: 40383737
i suggest for SSD drives to buy Intel, or Crucial
they have very good reviews on EE, and good support
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by:viki2000
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by:viki2000
ID: 40383933
@ 25112
You should ask about the type of hard disk and the type of SSD  (manufacturer, model).
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by:nobus
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ID: 40383957
the specs maybe better, but not the support (i hope you don't need it)
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by:25112
ID: 40384797
>> 120GB+500GB hard drives removed, and instead replaced with a Samsung Evo 500GB SSD

that is only if 120GB is not enough on the SSD, right?
and you can always add the Evo500Gb later, too, right (say, after 6 months)
~~~
>>You will then use a part of the RAM as a disk, lot's faster than SSD. Will help a lot.
thanks- good thought; will definitely consider it.
~~~
>>i suggest for SSD drives to buy Intel, or Crucial
do you mean samsung is not on par on support? nobus, have you had personal experience with issue on samsung?
~~~
>>You should ask about the type of hard disk and the type of SSD  (manufacturer, model).
do you mean intel vs samsung. and by model you mean 840 vs  840 PRO?
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by:nobus
ID: 40384815
>>  You will then use a part of the RAM as a disk, lot's faster than SSD  << this is strange singe SSD = memory chips
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by:25112
ID: 40384826
I don't understand how 16GB RAM is converted to SSD.. can you tell what will be the equivalent of SSD GB that can be derived from running 16GB RAM?
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by:nobus
ID: 40384857
i don't understand this question, best ask it to the person that posted it
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by:25112
ID: 40384953
nobus, from your perspective you'd go with intel/crucial over Samsung? you feel all their specs are equally good, but support wise, one is lagging? just want to make sure I understood you completely.
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by:25112
ID: 40384954
Can you help compare these two? first is $1150 and next $1480. No, newegg is not offering 250GB SSD.

*as far as I can see the only difference between the below two is 'turbo'- what difference does it make practically.. do you see any other difference?)
*Do these support 4k monitors?

1)
iBUYPOWER PHANTOM SERIES NE734i Desktop PC Intel Core i7 4790K (4.0GHz) 16GB DDR3 1TB HDD 120GB SSD Windows 8.1 64-Bit  
Graphics: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 760 2 GB
Processor: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0 GHz  
----------
2)
iBUYPOWER Phantom Series NE733D3 Desktop PC Intel Core i7 4790K (4.0GHz) 16GB DDR3 1TB HDD + 120G SSD HDD Windows 8.1 64-Bit  
Graphics: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 770 2GB  
Processor: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz (Max Turbo frequency 4.4GHz)
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 383 total points
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@25112
>> 120GB+500GB hard drives removed, and instead replaced with a Samsung Evo 500GB SSD

that is only if 120GB is not enough on the SSD, right?
and you can always add the Evo500Gb later, too, right (say, after 6 months)


Yes, you can add or/and upgrade later anytime.


>>You should ask about the type of hard disk and the type of SSD  (manufacturer, model).
do you mean intel vs samsung. and by model you mean 840 vs  840 PRO?


Exactly.

@nobus
>>  You will then use a part of the RAM as a disk, lot's faster than SSD  << this is strange since SSD = memory chips

Not all the Pizza is the same.
When we look from distance, from outside, as a black box, then we may simple say indeed RAM=memory chips and SSD=memory chips, but that is similar with “french fries chips” vs “potato chips”.
When we look closer with a “magnifying glass” for memory chips then we may notice several things:
- SSD have 3 types of memory chips: SLC, MLC, TLC. Most of them today are MLC. The SLC are better, faster, higher endurance, but too expensive. TLC chips for SSD will come soon on the market.
http://www.micron.com/products/nand-flash/tlc-mlc-and-slc-devices
http://www.supertalent.com/datasheets/SLC_vs_MLC%20whitepaper.pdf
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/ssd-value-performance,review-1455-5.html
http://www.computerweekly.com/feature/MLC-vs-SLC-Which-flash-SSD-is-right-for-you
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7173/samsung-ssd-840-evo-review-120gb-250gb-500gb-750gb-1tb-models-tested/3
- Also RAM memory chips are different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR_SDRAM
DDRAM memory chips are a lot faster than SSD memory chips. Actually as they are today you cannot compare them.
Somehow is logic, because one hand MLC chips must store a value after the power is removed and DDRAM no. You can see it as a capacity which must be charged and that takes time.
There are drives made with DDRAM memory and additional power supply, battery, super capacitors to keep the information after power off.
Then they made some i-RAM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-RAM , but was not so popular.
Then the idea came again:
http://www.all1.com.tw/12product101.htm
http://www.thessdreview.com/our-reviews/allone-cloud-disk-drive-101-ramdisk-review-500k-iops-ddr3-storage/2/
Then there is also:
http://www.geek.com/chips/sandisks-ulltradimm-is-an-ssd-on-a-ram-stick-1582908/
http://storageioblog.com/nand-flash-sata-ssd-ddr3-dimm-slot/

But speaking about the fastest, then you have to think at price and capacity and technology, in other words for what application is needed.
The fastest that I know since few years, forgetting about the impossible high price, is FusioIO:
http://www.fusionio.com/
www.fusionio.com/data-sheets/iomemory-px600-atomic-series/

Here are some other benchmark links:
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssd-fastest.html
http://ssd.userbenchmark.com/
http://www.fastestssd.com/featured/ssd-rankings-the-fastest-solid-state-drives/
http://www.storagerealm.com/the-fastest-best-solid-state-drives-ssd/

I think is enough information to explore the difference between different types of RAM disks based on different technology and different type of chips.
Besides that there is also the controller and the bus limitation for speed.
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 383 total points
ID: 40385264
PC1 = iBUYPOWER PHANTOM SERIES NE734 – 1149$
PC2 = iBUYPOWER Phantom Series NE733D3 – 1479$

So, why is it PC2 more expensive than PC1? Is it better for gaming, faster?
YES.

Here are the differences that I see:
1) Graphical card for PC2 is NVIDIA Geforce GTX 770 2GB and for PC1 is NVIDIA Geforce GTX 760 2 GB.
The 770 is with approx. 20% better than 760 say these guys:
http://www.steamgifts.com/forum/Y4tva/geforce-gtx-760-or-770-help-me-decide
But here are some benchmarks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McMuS67wNwk
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/reviews/pc-components/3500795/gtx-760-vs-gtx-770-graphics-card-comparison-review/
http://gpuboss.com/gpus/GeForce-GTX-770-vs-GeForce-GTX-760
http://www.hwcompare.com/14793/geforce-gtx-760-vs-geforce-gtx-770/
http://www.illgaming.in/2013/08/geforce-gtx-760-and-gtx-770-benchmarked-and-reviewed/
We notice that takes even more power, 770: 230W peak power vs. 760: 170W peak power.
2) Then comes that “turbo”, which is in fact the overclocking of the CPU.
CPU from PC2 can go up to 4.4GHz and CPU from PC1 goes only to 4.0GHz.
More speed, higher frequency, more switching for transitors inside the CPU = more electrical power = more heat.
3) Because of more power needed in turbo for PC2, the cooling system of the CPU from PC3 must be better. PC2 “Special Features:  Liquid Cooling System”.
It seems that a simple ventilator on top of the heat sink of the same CPU used in PC1 is not enough when the CPU is overclocked to 4.4GHz. So the 3rd difference is that liquid cooling system with higher efficiency.
4) More electrical power for graphical card and for CPU overclocked and its liquid cooling system implies a higher wattage power supply. Here is the 4th difference: 600W power supply for PC2 and 500W for PC1.
I guess no is clear why is more expensive PC2 than PC1.
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 383 total points
ID: 40385315
@ 25112
I don't understand how 16GB RAM is converted to SSD.. can you tell what will be the equivalent of SSD GB that can be derived from running 16GB RAM?

Let’s see first some explanations:
http://superuser.com/questions/686378/can-ssd-raid-be-faster-than-ramdisk
http://lifehacker.com/5969767/add-a-ram-disk-to-your-computer-for-faster-than-ssd-performance
And some youtube videos with benchmarks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4wJlg53hlQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdzEMVBQhwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYO3iKHHxkU
And some games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVpSZCwmtvE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5G8bk3XUCc

But I guess it depends also by PC configuration, motherboard, bus speed, CPU frequency.
Nevertheless RAMDisk is a lot faster and of course more expensive. The software RAMDisk is not expensive, but the RAM chips DDR3 are expensive compared with SSD.
Here is how you setup the RAMDisk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgYMPCAKNao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWPaYDmC2Kk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcrjpog0g3k
And  some tutorials:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amLCDNYDIkk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA0L_Q1ayUg
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by:viki2000
ID: 40385359
Here are additional reviews and explanations about RAM Disk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN0mjtEuV04
http://dimmdrive.com/

And a free version with full speed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oM92pmBF5g
https://www.softperfect.com/products/ramdisk/
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by:nobus
ID: 40386061
too much info for my little brain
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 383 total points
ID: 40386288
OK, the I will summarize it in few words:
- Buy a SSD MLC SATA III with capacity as bis as you can afford, Samsung, Intel...or any other good brands according with the benchmarks above.
- Buy RAM as much as you can afford and as much as your motherboard lets you install on it. Then use RAMDisk software on WIN8.1 and you have a fast PC, considering the configurations above with CPU i7 and NVIDIA 770.
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by:nobus
ID: 40386356
tx viki but the lifehacker link is from 2012, when SSD's were little in size (they talk about 60 Gb)
i doubt it is still useful nowadays with the faster SSD's (6 GB on sata)
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 383 total points
ID: 40386377
Today you do not have patience.
If that is old then take the following links. There are many from which you can choose. That's why I provided many,
And in fact it really does not matter. Just look at some youtube videos above done with CrystalDiskMark software.
Here we go:
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA - The 6GB/s mentioned by you are in fact 600MB/s and coresponds to SATA 3, which is valid for most of the SSD and the motherboards.
 Only the new SATA 3.2 will have 16 Gbit/s - 1969 MB/s

The RAMDisk benchmark shows speeds between 4000MB/s up to 9000MB/s.
SSD nowadays cannot reach it, unless is something very expensive with thousands of dollars, special applications, but definitely not the existing commercial types no matter what brand you choose.
Maybe SATA 5 or 6... in following years?
I guess 25112 is not going to wait so long...
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 383 total points
ID: 40386389
In the end is a equation of the memory manufacturing technology/design.
For example there are next SSD in a DIMM format, you plug them directly in RAM slots.
The bus speed is high enough, but the chips cannot perform as fast as DDRAM:
http://www.vikingtechnology.com/satadimm-ssd#overviewContainer
http://www.vikingtechnology.com/uploads/satadimm_productbrief.pdf
http://www.vikingtechnology.com/uploads/datasheets/PSFSDXXXXGXXXX.pdf

http://www.sandisk.com/enterprise/ulltradimm-ssd/
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by:nobus
ID: 40386799
>>  Today you do not have patience.  <<  why do you think that?  i'v got lots of time
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by:viki2000
ID: 40386842
You said:
too much info for my little brain
Is too much info only when you have not enough time or you have no patience.
I cannot believe even 1s that nobus the expert with over 15.000.000 points have a little brain. In fact nobus is very good and appreciated at many.
So I concluded that today you do not have patience, or maybe you are not in the mood to dig it.
Sorry if I am guessing wrong.
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by:nobus
ID: 40387065
i'm in the mood allright, but occupied with other things (laptop)
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by:25112
ID: 40389560
viki2000- thanks much for your detail analysis and links.

we are talking so far only for faster processing of data, right? the storage (capacity) of course will remain the same. (120 or 250 or 500 GB of SSD and so forth)?

Can you help put in bullet points: Case A where budget is not an issue, and Case B where it is budget conscious. Can you give priority/reco #1, priority/reco #2 (if need be #3 also) for each case, in order, for consideration.

many thanks again!
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by:viki2000
viki2000 earned 383 total points
ID: 40391373
we are talking so far only for faster processing of data, right? the storage (capacity) of course will remain the same. (120 or 250 or 500 GB of SSD and so forth)?
YES, with the mention that higher capacity SSD performs slightly better.

Can you help put in bullet points: Case A where budget is not an issue, and Case B where it is budget conscious. Can you give priority/reco #1, priority/reco #2 (if need be #3 also) for each case, in order, for consideration.

I am not so sure I understand clear your question.
Do yu speak in general?
or do you refer specific to:
PC1 = iBUYPOWER PHANTOM SERIES NE734 – 1149$
PC2 = iBUYPOWER Phantom Series NE733D3 – 1479$
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by:25112
ID: 40394632
thanks viki.

I meant

Case A
low budget (<$1000)
try to go for CPU like this intel or that non-intel
try to go for at least __ GB RAM
try to go for at least __ GB SSD Or ___ GB 7200 or combo...

and likewise for higher budget (1500$ or little higher)

Thank you-
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viki2000 earned 383 total points
ID: 40396682
Is hard to tell this or the other one.
It reduces at price and availability to a certain store.
If you pick up a store then you have to see what they offer as ready made systems, usually they are cheaper.
The best would be of you could customize your system, but then is usually a more expensive.

I would say next order is important: CPU+Motherboard, RAM, Video card, SSD, cooling system.
I would start with the CPU.
Some CPU's cost as much as your wanted desktop system.
You may compare their parameters here:
Intel: http://ark.intel.com/
AMD: http://products.amd.com/en-us/DesktopCPUResult.aspx

I incline to go with Intel i7 4 cores, but also AMD have some fast CPUs:
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/processors/desktop
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/processors/desktop/a-series-apu#
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/processors/desktop/fx#
Here are some prices for processors and desktop systems with AMD:
http://shop.amd.com/en-us/components/processors
http://shop.amd.com/en-us/computers/desktop?k=r9+OR+r7

Then you need the motherboard which is good for your CPU. Assuming that you buy a ready made system, then you should not worry about that.
Just look at what ready made system they offer on a certain store, see if they allow customizing, maybe you can choose another processor with higher speed for that specific motherboard, then compare 2 things: the price versus additional performance, speed. If it is a ready made system which does not allow customization then just compare the processors based on the above links as performance and see what price is convenient for you for entire system.

Then next thing as importance is the RAM.
I would take minimum 8GB FOR Case A and minimum 16GB for Case B.

The video card 2GB as proposed is OK. If you can 4GB is even better.
There are 2 main video cards manufacturers:
NVIDIA with GeForce: http://www.nvidia.com/page/home.html, http://www.geforce.com/hardware
AMD with Radeon: http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/graphics/desktop

Then comes the SSD.
I would take minimum 256GB for Case A and minimum 500GB for Case B. When is combo then 500GB HDD minimum, or 1TB better, to which add minimum 120-128GB SSD.

The cooling system is important because it may give you th possibility to over clock your CPU and therefore to run faster.
When CPU runs faster, higher speed, then produces more heat. A CPU maintained at low temperature is able to run at its fastest speed.
Simple fan on CPU heat sink will never have the efficiency of a liquid cooling system, which are indeed more expensive but better.
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by:25112
ID: 40396910
this is very helpful. thanks for the details spec and different things to compare and check. will be very helpful for  a while as reference. appreciate it much, viki.
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