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Toyota introduced a hydrogen car

Looks like Toyota aimed for the hydrogen cars technology.  No wonder they never invested too much into the EV.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2015/01/05/how-badly-does-toyota-want-to-push-hydrogen-cars-its-giving-away-its-patents-for-free/

There are several fuel stations already in US.  First car Mirai will be released this year.  

Some people believe hydrogen cars and fueling stations are more dangerous in the event of the accident.  I wonder what other people think.  How is it different a danger than gasoline cars and gasoline stations?
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Tiras25
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Tiras25
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David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
I've driven cars with natural gas and propane fuels, so I don't think it is any more dangerous than gasoline.  The limitations of the ng/propane fueled vehicles was lack of range (propane 200KM, NG 100KM)
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John HurstBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
In the information I have seen, the hydrogen fuel cells are filled with material to help generate hydrogen.  See:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/fuel-cell.htm

The outer tanks are designed to withstand severe impact.

I believe the overall intent is to make hydrogen vehicles as safe as gasoline vehicles (which are safe but not perfectly safe)
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Nick RhodeIT DirectorCommented:
When the discussion was brought up on the dangers of hydrogen fuel cells to run cars back when I believe Germany developed a car than ran on 3 hydrogen fuel cells they most likely had to squash it somehow and give it a negative review because more investments would be made and it would have driven prices of oil down.  I am not getting patriotic or anything and getting into politics but at that time gas prices were at high levels and when something came along in that day in age to counter the high prices, you better believe those involved in the oil business wanted to slander that as much as possible and perhaps try and get a ban on it in the US.  

Todays date is about energy conservation and alternative fuels to keep the expenses at a reasonable level because if we have more money as a consumer, we will more likely put that money back into the economy in which businesses will gain ground and keep the doors open + hire new employees because there is more money circulating. Yay!

So with this being in the energy conservation and alternative fuels age, more studies were done and as it turns out, hydrogen and gasoline are pretty much the same when it comes to being flammable.  But in comparison to which one is more safe, hydrogen is the winner.  

I came across an article late last year which was pretty interesting.  It basically touches on the subject of hydrogen vs gasoline and how hydrogen was given the bad name or associated with the Hindenburg to spread the negativity when it consisted in all actuality of diesel fuel.

Here is the Link:  Hydrogen-Fueled Cars
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viki2000Commented:
Each important manufacturer of the cars have already prepared the electrical car model. They just wait.
I do not think the hydrogen car is a real future.
There is a new technology which I believe may come, the nano flow cell:
http://mediacenter.nanoflowcell.com/en/mediacenter/press-release/news-detail/2014-01-29-nanoflowcell-ag-stages-world-premiere-at-geneva-motor-show-the-new-quant-the-first-e-sportlimousine-with-nanoflowcellR-drive/
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BillDLCommented:
It's such a logical step that it surely is the only way forward.  The only thing that has held back such a development is those who profit from petroleum production and sale and from manufacture and import of standard cars.

I remember seeing YouTube videos quite a number of years ago by an inventive guy who demonstrated how he broke down water to hydrogen and oxygen and used a cutting torch that produced water again as the only by-product.  The flame was hot enough to slice through metal, but the torch ran cool enough to handle.  He had also built an engine for his car that ran on the same principle.  He was trying to get the US military interested but had apparently been threatened into silence by oil companies, car manufacturers, and government officials who were heavily invested in oil.  What I DIDN'T do was check snopes.com or other sites to see if it was a hoax.

OK, I looked it up before posting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu-Hg6ntgqI

I suppose the next step will be for governments throughout the world to figure out how to levy a duty on water, oxygen, hydrogen, the electricity used for the electrolysis of the water, or the chemicals used to break the water into its separate chemical elements.
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viki2000Commented:
If you ask me, I strongly believe on another technology.
That's the magnetic motor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9d2VKXhcgs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHW6b1aFPfU

And generally you may see different non conventional attempts, some successful and not very known, here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
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viki2000Commented:
For example here is another try, this time Italian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M89QnJaPY8
http://www.nemokamaenergija.net/download/Ispanu%20proverzis.pdf
http://platinum-invests.eu/palladium-green-energy/
http://platinum-invests.eu/galeria-palladium/
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:E-MAG_Magnetic_Propulsion_Engine_by_Platinum_Invests_Group_Corporation_S.A.
http://pesn.com/2014/01/10/9602419_Platinum-Invests_E-Mag_assembly-photos/


But we speak about cars, so:
http://pesn.com/2014/05/13/9602490_Video--Platinum-Invests_Building_Palladium-Magnetic-Generators/
http://platinum-invests.eu/galeria-titanium/

The world will change fast when the people will be let free to express their ideas to the others, but they were and are not let free.
I think, thanks to internet and social media, some developments cannot be stopped anymore as before. There are too many small independent developers.
Personally, since few years, I have the perception of a pressure, as something boils and will burst soon and the world will be changed a lot due to what is called improper "free energy", better said cheap electrical energy.
And it is logical and expected. We go exponential in the direction of the controlling the second known force. We developed and we will continue to develop our technological society wrapping our knowledge around the electromagnetic force. When we will master it enough then additional knowledge will be for the other known forces, which now are in infant state. I speak about the first force, the gravitational force, the third and the fourth force at the atomic scale, and the story will continue with new forces not yet discovered in scientific circles.
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hdhondtCommented:
Maybe I'm missing something, but from the (very uninformative) data sheet for the Palladium Green Energy thingo, it looks like a generator driven by an electric motor. Not exactly free!

Actually the motor is called a "propulsed magnetic engine", which sounds like wishful thinking to me. If they expect free energy that way, I'll guarantee it is indeed wishful thinking. In fact, "free energy" is more than wishful thinking, it's a hoax. Some of your other links support my thinking. For example, your last link is from a guy who was getting a unit to power his house, 1 year ago. Where is it now??

But, as I said, there is very little real data on the data sheet, so I will be generous and admit that maybe it's not a hoax, just implying more than it can deliver.
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David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
if you have a battery running generator to charge the battery your battery will become fully discharged since a generator is not 100% efficient, nor is battery charging 100% efficient.  A typical by-product is heat. Even the wiring connecting the pieces is not 100% efficient there is some (however small) resistance to the flow of energy. Remember the saying from 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" TNSTASFL  (There's no such thing as a free lunch)
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_Commented:
It's:
TANSTAAFL  (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch)

Sorry, I don't mean to be picky, but that is one of my favorite reads.   ; )
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viki2000Commented:
As I mentioned above, it is "called improper "free energy", better said cheap electrical energy."
The idea behind is to use strong neodymium magnets to make a magnetic motor which will drive an electrical generator.
It is not perpetuum mobile and not infinite. Will come a moment when the magnets do not have the same strong magnetic force and when the motor itself will have mechanical problems. The advantage is that will take a long time for that.
The Turkish guy has patents on it:
http://www.google.com/patents/WO2009019001A3?cl=en
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2GRHIhjQGBlRDNFUGRWdFpwZlE/edit?pli=1

@hdhondt
Don't be so skeptical with the new technology of producing electrical energy. The motor inside has its role beside the magnetic one. Maybe is the generator according with the sketch from page 5. The system is not externally powered. It produces electricity using as source a magnetic motor similar as the one used by the Turkish guy.
"Palladium Green Energy is a propulsed magnetic engine that powers a generator of continuous electricity 24/7."

The only thing that I do not like is the price. It is like you pay the electrical energy bill in advance:
Price
Will take a while until will be copied in China, to get cheap models...
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hdhondtCommented:
@viki2000
magnetic motor which will drive an electrical generator.
That's exactly the problem: no motor or generator is 100% efficient. As a result, you will ALWAYS put in more energy than you get out. There might be systems that seem to bypass that, such as nuclear energy where mass is converted into energy, but there is still no energy created. I suppose it's possible these guys run a nuclear power plant inside the thing, but before I believe in that I require a LOT more detail than they are showing in their data sheet or website.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a scam, pure and simple.
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viki2000Commented:
"no motor or generator is 100% efficient."
Who said that is not like that?
There is a magnetic motor, which runs only based on magnets, no additional electrical energy. It has a certain power.
Then it is attached to an electrical motor with lower power.
Then we lose energy between them. We have low efficiency, heat, frictions....and finally we have electrical energy from the electrical generator which goes to the user as output of the system. It is lower efficiency than 100%, nobody said different.
We do not speak here about a self loop system which is "over unity".
You miss understood.
The magnetic motor, at least in the case of the Turkish guy, and I just suppose is similar for the italian guys, runs based only on magnetic filed without electricity.

A pure magnetic motor will be the best engine for a car. No electrical cars with batteries or hydrogen, just magnetic motors.

There are all kind of new trials regarding the electrical energy.
Even if does not apply to the cars, here is another attempt.
I remain perplexed looking at the investment and hard work of these Brazilians guys:
http://www.rarenergia.com.br/
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BillDLCommented:
I don't know why we can't just rein up a team of children or illegal immigrants and have them pull our cars around.  They will be quite light after you remove the redundant engine.  As long as you feed them slow-release carbohydrates and make them wear hi-viz clothing it's safe enough.
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viki2000Commented:
Are you from South and your grandfather was a slave owner?
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tliottaCommented:
"Magnetic motor"? Not likely. (Probably not possible.) Near as I could tell from the video, he just spun up a kind of flywheel and perhaps jumped up the voltage. Even so, at 110v, it wouldn't put out anywhere near enough wattage to move a car for more than maybe a minute or so, assuming it had enough power actually to get it moving from a standing start. The flywheel would slow quickly if that kind of load was put on it. The video simply shows nothing useful.

As for hydrogen, it's only been recently that it seems safely possible to use as a power source for cars. ('Possible' while not yet proven.) It's also most likely that existing energy companies, most especially those involved in petroleum products, will be among the first to fund the most successful implementations. There's essentially no reason to think they wouldn't jump at every chance to share in the huge potential revenue sources from cheap, safe hydrogen power. All that's really needed is a real demonstration of the combination of "cheap" with "safe" which isn't quite available yet.

An aspect of "cheap" that is still needed is "profitable", most immediately in terms of investment capitalization. It's going to take a huge investment to create the necessary infrastructure. There doesn't seem to be any companies large enough to provide such investment. Most likely sources would be national governments, but few taxpayers are likely to support paying that much.

Then, it currently costs more to get the required energy into a fuel cell than what the energy coming out is worth.  On a large scale, no one will want to pay higher rates than what gasoline currently costs. It's not the biggest concern for the limited uses today, but that would quickly change if it was scaled up to include a significant fraction of cars on the road. Some municipal buses? Some fleets of cars for companies that want the publicity? A few car models for individuals with enough disposable income to stand the risk? Those and some others are fine, and they provide good data for future plans; but they hardly touch average car buyers.

Secondary question: Of those here who truly believe in the technologies, how much stock have you bought in any of the experimenting companies? A basic block of stock in any of them isn't that expensive and the frontrunners have had some impressive rises in stock values (and some corresponding crashes back to reality). So, how much have you bought? If not in particular companies, what about mutual funds specializing in alternative energy sources? (By implication, how much faith do you really have in them? How much do you really think they're on the right tracks?)

Tom
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viki2000Commented:
"Magnetic motor"? Not likely.
Did you really check these 2 videos?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9d2VKXhcgs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHW6b1aFPfU

And do you really think the people in that room, from the 2nd link above, having the same doubts as you did not ask all the questions that you have and took in their hands the parts of the motor disassembled in front of their eyes?
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Tiras25Author Commented:
Great discussion.  Thanks guys.
Better suited for the lounge probably.
Thanks!
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hdhondtCommented:
Thanks for the points, Tiras25

@viki2000
There is a magnetic motor, which runs only based on magnets, no additional electrical energy
You're talking about creating energy out of nothing ("no electrical energy"). That is a scam.
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viki2000Commented:
"You're talking about creating energy out of nothing ("no electrical energy"). That is a scam. "

Why you do not want to understand it?
It is nothing like that. It is not electrical energy out of nothing. It has a generator. The driver is a pure magnetic motor. That's all. The force used to put in motion the rotor of the magnetic motor is pure magnetic force. And during last years that is possible due to strong magnets with strong magnetic fields.
Neodymium magnet =  Nd2Fe14B compound, discovered in 1982 by General Motors (GM) and Sumitomo Special Metals
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David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
an electric motor uses magnetism, a generator also uses magnetism .. Electricity in is a motor, electricity out is a generator.  In order to create motion (energy) you must use energy (conservation of energy)
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viki2000Commented:
Agree.
But the idea behind is this: the magnetic force in the magnetic motor is stronger than the friction and allows rotation. The electrical generator attached to the magnetic motor  it is not the same power as the motor, it is lower. We lose energy through transformation magnetic-mechanic-electric, but in the end we still get a value, enough.
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David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
do you understand how a magnetic motor works? it works on the attraction / repulsion of similar poles of magnetic field  but once it has moved then in order for it to move more you have to reverse the polarity so the previously attracted is now being repulsed.
I will say it again a generator and an electric motor are exactly the same the only difference is where the energy is being applied. the input of one is the output of the other and vice versa.
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viki2000Commented:
Maybe the new generators which will appear on the market during the next years, not more than 5-10 years, will change your understanding.
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hdhondtCommented:
No matter how you twist it, that magnetic motor cannot drive a generator to create more energy than the motor uses. Nothing is 100% efficient - let alone more than 100% as required by this system.
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BillDLCommented:
Thank you Tiras25.

Perhaps just a couple of children reined up to pull the car along would be sufficient to offset the kinetic energy from the magnets that is lost to friction and heat?  ;-)
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