Live events displayed on hdtv

Hello All-

We are looking for a good solution for displaying live events in our gymnasium to two different HDTV's in two different rooms.  Of course we are a small public school and have a very limited budget but I would think there is a viable solution out there that won't break the bank.   The capability we are looking for is to have some sort of camera hooked up in our gymnasium which in turn could feed its output to two separate tv's.  So people in our foyer and concessions area can still watch whatever game or event is going on in the gymnasium.  When there are no events going on in the gym we would like to be able to push a scrolling announcements information page to the tv's to be displayed, just basically to show important announcements for the day or start times for games etc etc.  We are also considering hooking up a low cost video security system on the outside of the building, it would be nice if all of this could be tied together over our network in some way.  I would love to hear how others have addressed projects similar to this on a limited budget.  Thanks!

PlainsSchools
plainsschoolsAsked:
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Hi.

Do you want the cameras in the gym to function as stationary security cameras when there is no event or will they only be in use during an event?  In the same topic area, would you also like to have the ability to plug in a handheld quality camera for use during events so that, for instance, the camera could follow the movement of a basketball up and down the court?

What is your current network hardware?  Mac or PC or  both?  Servers?  Processors?  RAM?  Firewall?  ISP type and speed?

Does the school already own any cameras for video broadcast classes that could be used for events?  Or do you prefer a simple IP camera that is fixed and stationary with wide angle lens?

Is the school wired for Category 5e?  In the gym or nearby?  In the concession area or nearby?
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plainsschoolsAuthor Commented:
Christopher-

Thanks for the response, I will try to address your questions as much as possible.  The cameras would not need to act as security cameras when the events are not in use, its not a high problem area, we are mainly concerned with security cameras capturing activity outside the building ie parking lots.  We are a small school, problems we have with behavior/vandalism generally happens outside.  It could be nice to attach a handheld camera to follow action but not really necessary, we would be happy with a stationary wide angle view probably.  

We are a PC environment exclusively.  We have 5 different servers, mostly mid-range poweredge dell equipment 8-16 gigs of ram, 2TB hard drives etc.  There is more capability available than we use, they generally are overpowered for our needs.  

We use a sonicwall for our firewall.  We have a 50m up and down fiber connection from our ISP.  

We currently do not own any high end video cameras, we have still photography classes, a few projects using video editing but nothing that has dictated that we purchase high end video cameras.  We would probably prefer a fixed ip camera.

The school is wired cat5e everywhere with fiber between buildings.  There is cabling/switching near by and not terribly far from the concessions area, the runs would not be terrible to pull new cable for cameras.  

Thanks!
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JohnnyCanuckCommented:
This is not that simple.  Camcorders do not have ethernet ports so you need another way to get the video onto your network.  One way is to have a computer (probably a laptop) connected to the camera's HDMI port (or other port).  Another way is to use a video encoder.  Here's a site that has a pretty good description of what is needed to get you started.

http://www.simplerna.com/2011/05/how-to-connect-camcorder-to-internet.html

This particularly refers to internet video but the process is similar to send it over your network.  I send video to 90 TVs in my building using a low end WDTV Live streaming video device connected to our satellite receiver which is plugged into our cable system.  Your situation is different so I'd suggest using the camera attached video encoders to send the data over your network and then use something like the WDTV at the television end (or the TV's built in ethernet if it has it) to send the data to the TV.
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Alrighty then.

I'm putting together some stuff with help from Honeywell who is getting me through a CAT5e installation.

Basic numbers for storage are about

9 security cameras outside
1.3 Mp
10 fps
6TB HDD
about every 30 days will start overwrite

Based on that data, I wonder how you're planning your outdoor options.

I'll figure one gym IP cam as you described.  Planning on live feed to HDTVs during games with no audio.  Will the coach and kids want a recording of the game including audio, buffered in the background to some device?  Or will that be handled by others unrelated to this issue possibly with analog handheld since this is for entertainment value at the two HDTVs?

Any idea yet?

It is important for almost all these IP Cams to use the same manufacturer for both IP Cam and NVR.  Here is a recommendation for example.  NVR has 4 channels, so  figure one in the gym that gets switched to live feed on game nights (probably require another PC, may be able to access by browser to NVR IP address) and 3 outside for security.

cam
http://adiglobal.us/pages/product.aspx?pid=HX-OD32V&Category=0000

NVR
http://adiglobal.us/pages/product.aspx?pid=HX-N7604EP2T&Category=0000

If you want more cams get same NVR with more channels accordingly.

More on your info scroll in a bit.  Sure hope this is what you're looking for.
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Hi Johnnycanuck.

The cam I linked to has Ethernet.  I understood plainsschools did not want video camcorders.  Simply a fixed IP cam.  The NVR would give HDMI output to HDTVs up to 30 foot distance.  If this is not doable then we can rethink.  HDMI out from NVR would split to two TVs.  May require boosters.

Might achieve 25 fps during game.

NVR for security really should be dedicated, so something else like another NVR for game recordings unless no recordings of games required.
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plainsschoolsAuthor Commented:
Christopher-

I think you're in the right track for the most part. We will not require any recording of the games, the managers for each particular team can handle that. 30 feet won't get us from the gym, say center court, to the concessions area and foyer. Probably closer to 100 feet so I'm guessing hdmi for that part is out? Thanks for all your info!
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
You're quite welcome.  Sounds good.  Will be meeting with engineers that specialize in this next Tuesday.  If you keep the question open until after that, I will get back to you.  There is a bit to the VMS.  And also options to go analog cam with coax in the gym.  More later if you're willing.  Maybe someone else here can answer before then.

Also, for the record, I erred above.  It is not Honeywell, it is a large distributor of theirs which is ADI Global.
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plainsschoolsAuthor Commented:
Hello Christopher-

Have you come up with any ideas as far as pushing our announcements to those tv's while there are no events taking place in the gymnasium?  Thank you!
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Haven't been able to think about it yet as tomorrow will be an entire day of about 12 hours devoted to this subject and the above.  As I hope to have all helpful info with me while I'm meeting with these people I wonder if it is any trouble for you to provide a rudimentary diagram of the buildings with approximately accurate aspect ratios and feet of wall lengths and heights (at least for the gym).  If distances aren't known guesses will work.  Stepping it off at 3 feet per step works too.  Mental guesses may be just fine also.  Have the school administrators thought about how many cameras they might want outside and at what locations?

Will your info scroll be from a URL of a school internet site, or a file, or you don't care or know yet?
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Hi.

Got a load of info yesterday.  Camera guide and a primer on video basics are attached and useful for understanding and seeing the difference in technologies employed today.  When picking cameras a dome style may be  useful if kids want to throw basketballs or other things at a protruding style camera that could break more easily.

There are thousands of Camera brands from which to choose.  Some that sounded good based on feedback are Honeywell, Speco, Axis, Bosch, FLIR, Arecount, and many others.  Most reps confirmed that today all the cameras are very good.  They also confirm you're going to want to get the correct VMS.  Saw some demos of powerline products from Axis that were certainly noteworthy.  In less than a minute the camera was plugged into an AC outlet in the seminar room and was available to view on the presenter's phone or computer.  Some kits are available now from Honeywell and the like that include 4 IP cams and an NVR for I think just over $1000.  Also was advised if hardware is purchased out of approved channel to obtain better pricing that warranties and support are often void.  Hmmm.

If it were me, I would pick a dome PTZ for the gymnasium and connect it via Cat5e to your switch.  Get a dedicated PC on which to run the VMS,  If you need PoE there are injectors you can introduce to your CAT5e lines.  Have to watch specs to ensure your power requirements are met and your PC has the horsepower to send your live streams.  Your NVR would be on the LAN also.  The VMS needs to be able to locate your cams and the NVR and adjust your P, T, and Z for game nights and also send the cameras RTSP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Time_Streaming_Protocol


output to your VMS I believe, to be forwarded to the two HDTVs.  Would probably not get HDTVs but HD computer monitors instead that have RJ45s.  Haven't had time to look into that part.  Then I'm told it is up to the VMS to have the features to play a powerpoint file or scroll a URL but that is more vague.  Some VMS are so feature rich they appear to be beyond what I would want.  I would also probably want my VMS to be able to send full screen video to the monitors without a title bar across the top and also without the security info about the image stamped across it.

Am following up with some VMS companies and hope to have confirming info on this for you in a few hours or tomorrow.

You can also get IP cams that have SD and micro SD card slots that record themselves and can go up to a few days before overwriting.  No NVR required if you choose a secondary recording to be done over some host service on the internet.  Some monthly fees are very low.  Hardened refers to products designed to perform in outdoor environments.
video-thebasics.pdf
CameraTechnologyGuide.pdf
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Also wanted you to know of products like these wireless multi-condition panic buttons from Inovonics for schools that signal different levels of security needs.  Inovonics is out of Louisville, CO and their phone number is (303) 939-8977.

Page from Inovonics brochure on wireless panic buttons for schools.
And this audio monitoring company, Louroe Electronics, has done work for schools.  They are at Louroe.com and (818) 994-6498.  Their mikes can be plugged into IP cams, if cam has an inlet, and the cam can sometimes synch audio and video before packetizing I'm told.

Audio Monitoring example for schools.
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Hi again.

The consensus seems to be there is no consensus.   With thousands of IP cameras it is a little difficult to guarantee when the software companies don't sell the cameras.  Apparently the IP cam must be checked out.  When accessing the IP cam by browser many times the settings you need are configurable in the firmware like for live feed sometimes.  Other times the cam manufacturer will supply a software tool to configure the IP cam.  Yesterday someone at Honeywell support told me I can't do a live feed to HD monitor with any of their IP cameras and I have to use a streaming IP cam (a webcam).  Others believe it is quite possible to do what you want with a security cam setup.  What I was trying to avoid is having one expenditure for basketball entertainment live stream, and a whole separate expenditure for a security cam setup right next to it.

The people at Blackbox.com were great.  Know their stuff and know your education market and how to advise.  It seems a perfect fit for you but may be a little pricey.  One school set up their signage and left it that way for 3 years while doing almost daily updates for signage by uploading new files via FTP.  If you already have Powerpoint people you can even "Save As" .MOV and upload via FTP and your done.  A potential time saver.

Blackbox.com has the iCompel line for signage.
http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/Digital-Signage/Digital-Signage-Platforms-amp-Players/iCOMPEL/n-4294957319


QNAP was recommended to me by an IT guy at the show that took time to listen to your needs.  They have a signage solution that they believe will do what you want combined with basketball live feed and security cams.  Very helpful on the phone.
QNAP has their line for signage and security.
https://www.qnap.com/event/station/en/signage.php

Of course if you're into coding there is open source VLM.  So many details to look into.
http://www.wikihow.com/Stream-Your-Webcam

Please let us know what you think.
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
AVI also got back to me.  They sound very capable and have a business model to charge for the design of your complete system.  But I didn't press them about the security side.


signage is described here
https://www.avisystems.com/choose-right-digital-signage-solution/
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plainsschoolsAuthor Commented:
Christopher-

Thanks so much for all the effort and information. I am going to work through some of that and try to figure some things out. I think for now we are going to just focus on the camera in the gym and the information displays in the lobby and concessions area. We will tackle the security system separate at another juncture. It's been a very busy few days sorry i didn't get back to you earlier! I am hoping we will just be able to select a separate input on the monitors/TV's and select between the gym stream and the information. PowerPoint would work well I think. Thanks!
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
You're welcome.  Glad to do it as I need to know.

I finally found what I was trying to confirm by someone who did it and wrote it up.  Previously, my searches ended up with wireless.  So we know that works with things like the "Allshare" app for Samsung devices, but I wanted to know about the Ethernet that I haven't finished hooking up yet.

I messed around with a Sony 4K TV Bravia XBR-49X850B with my Microsoft Surface RT and made some progress displaying images from my RT,  This Sony has ethernet, and built-in WiFi and more.  That allowed me to do more informed searches tonight.  For Windows 8, this is how a helpful person set up playing video files from a device to his smart TV.

http://mywindows8.org/connect-samsung-dlna-enabled-smart-tv/

That ability should allow you to run your signage as a powerpoint presentation saved as a movie.  Have to try it,

The same type of instruction if using Windows 7 is here.
http://mywindows8.org/stream-videos-from-windows-7-pc-to-tv/

I believe the smart IP webcams are going to be about that easy too.  More later.
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Hi.

Wonder how it goes.  Been waaayyy too busy.  Haven't gotten to this.  It is now looking like next week because of holiday and family visit.  I hope to succeed with test run on the Sony TV with some kind of configuration.  Do you have a deadline?
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plainsschoolsAuthor Commented:
Christopher-

My deadline on the project is I have to have a proposal by the end of this month as the money has to be encumbered before the end of June.  I like where you are going and using powerpoint to save as a video, I think that is a viable solution with the signage portion.  I am not at all apposed to having a couple camera set up and a dedicated pc which could then push to the tv's.  I am happy to hear what you would think could be the best solution.  So which do you think would be better, smart tv's or hd monitors? Thanks again!
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Alrighty then.  I will see if I can allocate some more time toward this sooner.  In the meantime here is a link to see how different cameras look.  It is from the largest manufacturer Axis.

http://www.axis.com/us/en/camerademo/index.htm
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Christopher Jay WolffWiggle My Legs, OwnerCommented:
Hi again.

Will have new NAP wired in the next few days.  One of the seven rooms has the Sony 4K with the RJ45 to try out.  Now have NetGear 8 port Gigabit switch that will be part of the setup.

Will be looking to get an IP cam on order to try out on PoE.  Looking at GeoVision.  For info go to usavisionsys.com.  It was reported to me today I should get the GeoVision  (GV) and it will have the DVD with their VMS included in the box for free.  The demos on the site seem to make me think they will charge a fee.  The focal length of the lens you want will be somewhere between 3 to 7 mm.  The cameras that will save you money will have an adjustable focal length that you set by hand, and focus by hand.  There is a reliability increase with these cameras as there are no motors and fewer moving parts.   I would suggest a dome camera so that accidents or mischievous kids have a difficult time breaking the mounting situation.  A dome should deflect objects and basketballs better.

Some people think you should buy an NVR just to get the software capabilities but I'm not sold on that idea yet.  If GV includes the VMS with the camera maybe that is all that is required.  Please see the GV link.  If you go to usavisionsys.com then click Video Tutorials on the right, the click the first heading of VMS, then try out the first three videos listed.  I believe the second one is an hour and 11 minutes.  At 21 minutes is the video stitching from two cameras.  It seems like such overkill for your needs but you may grow into it if you purchase outdoor security and / or like the idea of stitching the video from two cams together for the games.

A basketball court is supposed to be 94 by 50 feet.  So if the wall at mid-court might be 45 feet to the edge of court, and if the cam is 30 feet high, its about 54 or so to the near edge of the court, and the far edge would  be about 100 feet from the cam.  You'll have to take a look at your gym and planned cam locations.  I just used center court at  77 (154/2) feet depth and 100 feet wide viewing angle (length of court) and got 3.8 mm lens with this calculator, figuring a 1/3 CCD.

http://www.securitycameraking.com/calculator-lens-field-of-view.html

Also looking at this camera, but the specs don't concur with what they told me about it.  He must have meant a different cam.  Have to call them again.
http://mavlontech.com/p-1144-20-megapixel-dome-ip-camera-1-3-sony-cmos1080p-28-12mm-vandal-proof-ir-led-ip66-poe.aspx


For your budget:

$350 2Mp 1080p 30 fps IP cam  They're ranging from $85 to about $300 and up.  I plan on $85 and will let you know.
$70-100 for 1000 feet of cable and connectors etc.
$???  for PoE switch or you already have one with unused ports, or a PoE Injector if your switch is not PoE.
$400-500 dedicated laptop to run VMS and could also dedicate it for Powerpoint usage.
$2600 for two HD monitors since I'm testing the Sony 4k.  In the end, you should be able to land two large 1080p RJ45 monitors for $600-900 to end up under budget.

As you know, there are often incidentals but that is supposed to be pretty much it, unless you have to get an NVR.  I'm looking at an HDMI to Ethernet to take the HDMI out from the laptop to the monitors.  It looks like this.
HDMI to Ethernet
 The VMS is supposed to be able to use your dedicated laptop as the NVR, if that route is necessary to get a live feed to the monitors.  That way you don't have to purchase a dedicated NVR.  The VMS may have to use "record mode" to get a live stream.

I made a powerpoint info sample for a school.  My save options in Office 2013 do not include MOV.  I can save as MP4 and did so.  It played but the powerpoint repeat loop did not translate as we'd guess.  The Sony plays MP4s and maybe has a repeat loop feature.  I figure you want it over the Cat5 not a flash drive.  We'll see.

Sorry to be up against your deadline like this.
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