Patch panel installed vertically – Comms cabinet in tight space – Any issues?

Hi,

I have a client with which we basically need to be forced to build a comms cabinet into a very tight space.

It only has:

Depth of 50cm
Width 200cm.
Height about 200cms

It needs to support about 50 Cat 6 ports that will be available on this network.

The client has an onsite electrician and carpenter team who are adamant they can build the case around and the request has been that we make the patch panel so that it is vertical position. They have already laid the cables converging to the point where this small cabinet is going to go, so we have to make it work.

So the proposal is, then patch panels will actually positioned vertically, therefore facing upwards. The switch and routers would be attached to the wall facing the patches panels. In theory we have accepted, there is no reason why this cannot work, it’s unusual, but it’s just cables and the network is a basic one.


Has anyone seen anything like this before? Any problems I’m not seeing, and does anyone know of any equipment that would make patch panel vertical installation easier?

Any input appreciated.
IT Man200Asked:
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asavenerCommented:
The biggest obstacle is going to be visibility and access.  Technically, it will work.  Operationally, you need to make sure that you can make changes without disruption.
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saam117Commented:
Hello,

On the Telecom Room perspective I've never seen anything like this and it is also NOT recommended due to visibility and troubleshoot. On this such small space you can have a Wall Rack which will not need to have a required "space" you can put it anywhere and it will accommodate 1 or 2 routes, 1 switch, and 3 Patch Panels (50 drops, each Patch Panel has 24 Ports) and you will actually have expansion if needed. A Wall Rack has 12 U Size and you will be able to do everything, have a nice look, and be within structured cabling standards.

Please below the Wall Rack Proposal from a vendor (Black Box):
http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Detail.aspx/Open-Frame-Rack-12-D-8U/RMT990A
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Craig BeckCommented:
Is the cabinet really 2m wide?

I've seen vertically-mounted patch panels.  They were basically mounted correctly in a cabinet which was installed on its back.  It'll work just like a cabinet that's mounted against a wall.

As others say, as long as you can work on it later and make changes, etc, there's no reason why it won't work.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
Thanks for all the input. Note the dimensions given were those of the current empty space at present. It's not actually a cabinet of that size. This is the space we have to work with.
As it's a building firm they are happy to build anything custom around the space.
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asavenerCommented:
I agree that a wall-mounted rack would be a better solution.  There are also wall-mounted rack-mount cabinets with doors, locks, etc. if you need more physical security.

Make sure you mount them on studs, or a well-anchored mounting board, because they'll rip drywall to shreds.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
I've been looking at Cable money and they have these shallow wall mounted simple cabinets

http://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/patching-brackets-frames/136-350mm-deep-wall-mounted-19-frame.html#/usize-3u/topbottomcover-withoutplates

They even do ones with 200mm depth.

We have 480mm in total, and we have to leave room to be able to plug the actual cables in. The switch itself is still likely to be mounted vertically, but we do people thing about using a 200mm depth version of the above?
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saam117Commented:
Hi IT Man200,

This guy will not fulfill your solution, it only has 3 U, this guy is commonly used in top of 44 U Racks to assist on cable interconnection. You would need more of those to supply your equipment demand and the switch will not fit in this guy.

The best Idea is a Closed Wall Mount Rack so you will keep your equipment safe (as mentioned by "asavener") and will be able to resolve future issues, not to say stay in Comply with Cable Management Standards.
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asavenerCommented:
Looks good to me....

Can you explain why it won't fit 60 patch ports?  3 24-port patch panels should fit.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
Note quite sure what you mean by "guy" .

Note I would only put the patch panel into the wall mount that I linked to. So I would maybe have two of those side by side. Put the patch pane into them

The actual switch and router would still be vertically mounted. But at least the patch panels would be their intended orientation.
Actually Cable monkey told me you can get shallow switches, but as we need POE maybe avoid and just go vertically installed.

Any other input opinions welcome.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
If the questions
"Can you explain why it won't fit 60 patch ports?  3 24-port patch panels should fit. "

was aimed at saam117

I was too thinking the same thing. As mentioned above I would not put the actual switch into this.
Thanks!
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Craig BeckCommented:
What switches are you using?  I'd say unless they're more than 330mm deep you should mount everything in a proper cab, wall-mounted.
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saam117Commented:
Hi,

By guy I meant the Rack you listed. I meant that it wont fit if you were planning to put the switch and router and patch panels, since you are not putting the switch/router on this mount then you are ok, the patch panels only will fit.

I still believe that spend a little more money for a Wall Rack to fit everything would be better but this is your call.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
Hi guys,
Money is not particularly an issue in this case. It's just the space, therefore 48cm. Are there may switches that, with the cable plugged in and power in the back, are going to fit where we have only this amount of space?

I was thinking by having the patch panels at least the right way, that is much better than having everything vertical?

Feel free to suggest shallow switches that are also POE. We need to accommodate 50 sockets, so we could have say, two 24 /25 port switches id better (The router will have 4 LAN ports as well)
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Craig BeckCommented:
Cisco WS-C2960X-48FPD-L is 368mm deep.  They'll fit in a 480mm cab with 110mm to spare.  That's ample to get the [angled] power lead in the back and cables in the front.  You can even get the stack cables in there at the back too.

That switch will give you 48x 802.3af POE ports (15.4W) or 24x 802.3at POE ports (30W).  You also get 2 uplink SFP+ slots so you can connect the router using a fiber or copper transceiver.

You could also use the WS-C2960X-24PD-L if you want 24-port versions.  That'll do the same as the 48FPD-L but obviously only has 24 ports.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
Thanks for this. Although money is no main object, Something a little cheaper that £2500k would be preferable if anyone knows.

Also the 48cm is the very max. and that may even need to include the door width, so I probably should be saying 46cm
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Craig BeckCommented:
Have a look at the Juniper EX2200-24P-4G.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
OK, I've been looking at options and I'm thinking of combining these items.

GS728TP: 24-port
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/16680-netgear-gs728tp-100eus/

this "rack":
http://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/patching-brackets-frames/136-350mm-deep-wall-mounted-19-frame.html

and maybe this patch panel

http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Data%C2%AE-installation-EIA-568-B-2-requirements/dp/B005Y37I76/ref=pd_sim_computers_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=16BQGGAARG8ZX586MXQ1

I'm going to get two of each and put them side by side (remember I have lots of width, just not much depth)

In theory this should work as the Netgear switch is 257mm.

Am I missing something, or is everything going to fit in quite easily?

Thanks again for all the input
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Craig BeckCommented:
Careful with that switch...

If you want to provide PoE through all ports at the same time, you're out of luck.  The power budget is 192W.  That means you can't even power ports 1-8 simultaneously at 802.3at (30W per-port).

The first 8 ports can deliver up-to 30W each.  Ports 9-16 can deliver up-to 15.4W each.  If you wanted to supply 802.3af PoE (15.4W) to each device, you could only power 12 devices across the whole switch simultaneously.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
OK noted. We were thinking voip phones only. Snom ones. The literature lead me to think it would be fine to do so.

Also note in actual practise overall about 15 phones, but we want to make all ports live because we don't want to have to repatch because of the small space. Just set it up and leave it.
But I'd rather have a switch that can actually handle more so open to other suggestions.
Thanks
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Craig BeckCommented:
The switch should be able to power 24 IP Phones providing they're class 2, however they might not all boot if you power them all at the same time if they pull 15.4W before the bootloader starts.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
I have looked a bit more and we are going for the SNOM range of phones which state

• Power over Ethernet (PoE):
IEEE 802.3af, Class 2

Regarding POE

We also think we are going to get a single 48port switch rather then 2 * 24 next to each other as originally planned:

http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/products/17233-netgear-gs752tp-100eus/

Either way 24 port or 48, do you really think there would be a problem powering even 48 phones at once. The switch says it's designed for VoIP environments so I'd be surprised if they sold it and it was not going to work (or maybe I should not be surprised)

Grateful for any input.
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Craig BeckCommented:
The switch may be suitable for VoIP environments but don't take that to mean powering all 48 ports at the same time is a guarantee.

Class 2 devices use roughly 7.7W PoE.  That means you need at least 370W power available to PoE devices.  However, during the initial powering phase, before CDP or LLDP, the device may draw more than 7W so the 48th device may fail to boot.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
Thanks again. Can I clarify. So are you saying just the 48th device may not start if we have 48 phones attached, but if we had 47 it would be OK.

As it happens the final decision we are going for it to actually go for 2 * 24 port devices which are better as all ports are POE+ (Rather then just 8 on the 48 port model)
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Craig BeckCommented:
Again, be careful.

A PoE switch has a power budget.  That is set by the PSU in the device.  When a switch says it can deliver PoE on all ports that may be correct, but it may not mean that it can deliver PoE on all ports simultaneously.

For example, a switch with a PoE budget of 370W can supply 7.7W per port on 24 ports simultaneously.  Now, consider that statement.  That implies that the switch can provide PoE on all ports, and that is correct.  What it doesn't say, though, is that the switch can't provide FULL PoE on all ports simultaneously.  That's the issue.

Cisco, for example, will offer switches with different sized PSUs.  This enables switches to provide power in different configurations, such as a 48-port switch providing full PoE on up-to 24 ports or all 48 ports.

Have a look at table 8, here...

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/switches/catalyst-2960-x-series-switches/data_sheet_c78-728232.html

...it explains the different scenarios (using PoE+, etc).

What I'm saying is, you need to ensure that ALL ports can supply PoE+ (30W) simultaneously.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
OK good explanation.

In our case (looking again) the netgear has

GS728TP - 192W total (8 POE+ ports, all POE)
GS728TPP 384W total all POE + (up to 720W with EPS)

So  I assume the TPP would definitely be fine, in our case, without actual 12 handsets likely max, even the TP will easily handle it

(and remember we have two switches)
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Craig BeckCommented:
You really need to work out what devices you will have connected, and to which ports, with that switch.

If you connect 12 phones only you're absolutely fine.
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IT Man200Author Commented:
Thanks all for the input. We went for shallow racks and switches in the end and kept it all within the space and it seems to of worked!
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