VM Overkill Redux

I have some more details on a proposed system, and would greatly appreciate feedback on whether we are being maneuvered into a situation with limited options. We are a fairly small, single location company with 20 users on a domain with 1 server hosting primarily Visual Foxpro apps. EMail is handled by Outlook, with .pst's and Documents stored on the server. Only other shared needs are a barcode license app and 1printer used for special jobs.
Our longtime vendor and network maintenance co. is proposing
4 VMs under Hyper-V on:
Windows 2012R2
Intel 4U Tower, s2600CP4 mb, with dual 750 w power
Dual Xeon E5-2620 6 cores LGA 2011 2 Ghz 15 mb
64 g Server Ram
SSD for boot drive
3 3 tb RAID-1 Data Drives

Their plan is to put everything, including  all users desktops into VMs.
One concern is that they seem to want to move us out of Barracuda backup, which they talked us into 2 years ago, and into VEEAM for backup which, I believe, only handles backups of virtual machines. Simply stuff, like the license server, would need to be in a VM.
I don't mind having a system somewhat more powerful than current needs, but I do need a little more confidence that we're getting a system that fits our needs, not theirs.
Thanks!
terrypba1Asked:
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Zephyr ICTCloud ArchitectCommented:
Their plan is to put everything, including  all users desktops into VMs.

On the hardware you posted?? Or other hardware??

20 virtual desktops will need quite the hardware, especially storage because that's always the bottleneck. Maybe they were thinking Citrix??

VEEAM is a wonderful product, it's mostly geared towards VM backups, that is true ... If that would be enough, I cannot tell from the info here, if it also backups all the files and folders from the clients maybe...

The 4 VMs on the hardware posted probably will not be a problem ...
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terrypba1Author Commented:
I asking for clarification on the desktops--he may have just meant backing up their desktops into one VM.
But if I have their eMail and Documents backed up, I'm not sure I'm too concerned about getting their desktops as well.
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Zephyr ICTCloud ArchitectCommented:
No, that seems overkill, a desktop can be re-installed and the backup restored, you could take images of the desktops and place them somewhere but you'd have to have the same hardware (or nearly the same) for that to make sense ... So if you have the users' files and such I don't see a need to backup the desktops themselves.

I would add more disks in the system though, 4 virtual servers isn't much but the more spindles (disks) in the array the faster they'll be, if the space is available I'd rather go for 6x 2TB than 3x 3TB and place them in RAID 10 for extra performance.
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tncodeCommented:
I have tried VMs as desktops and it was somewhat problematic for me. There was latency and lag time noticed, especially with graphics and video. And if the server goes down, several desktops are also down.
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David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
EMail is handled by Outlook, with .pst's on server you realize that this is a not supported configuration.

According to an iops calculator you need 491 IOPS which means 12 x 7KSAS in Raid-5 or Raid 10
vdi iops calculator http://www.unidesk.com/resources/iops-calculator
raid iops calculator http://www.thecloudcalculator.com/calculators/disk-raid-and-iops.html
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Zephyr ICTCloud ArchitectCommented:
Veeam now has a product to backup end-clients as well, so that might be something to look into.
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terrypba1Author Commented:
Looks like the vendor is talking about 'folder redirection' for each desktop, so that each user is actually saving to a folder in a VM on the server. (All users to the same VM). Not sure how or if this differs from a virtual desktop. Seems me me that in both the user is running desktop files from the VM?

If all PST are on local machines, my understanding is that VEEAM can't back up physical files. Is storing them in a VM on the server supported?
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Zephyr ICTCloud ArchitectCommented:
I don't read it that way...

It's clearly stated that you can backup to internal or external hard drives, a NAS share or a Veeam Backup Repository. The last one is their cloud solution I believe, so that one you can ignore... So you could backup to a server share or external disk ... If you backup to a server share, and this server is in backup via Veeam than you have 2 backups, 1 for quick access and another with more retention for example.
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terrypba1Author Commented:
Sorry- I meant you can't select files on a physical device to backup. But your link does point to a separate version of Veeam that can.
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David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
Looks like the vendor is talking about 'folder redirection' for each desktop, so that each user is actually saving to a folder in a VM on the server. (All users to the same VM). Not sure how or if this differs from a virtual desktop. Seems me me that in both the user is running desktop files from the VM? Microsoft has 3 different types of VDI, Session Based, Common Virtual Machine with or without user profile disks, and Personal Virtual Machines.(sorted from lowest to highest overhead and maintenance).  It is all about the user experience and customization.  Cheapest licensing.

Session based: everyone works on the server and all of the workload (memory/disk/network) is on the server .. if one user crashes then it could take down everyone until the server is rebooted. Easiest to maintain and uses the least resources.

In the common virtual machine it really isn't the same virtual machine it is many virtual machines using the SAME virtual disk(s).. This allows you to use different disk subsystems and increases isolation (if a vm goes down only 1 user is affected).. You only have to maintain the server and the base virtual machine.. if you want users to be able so save their own personal copies of items i.e. outlook.pst then you would use this with a user personal disk otherwise unless they save to the network they will lose everything on next reboot. each VM/user must have its own client license.

personal virtual machines is just that every user has their own fully customizable machine just like a physical desktop except their 'desktop' could be a cheap intel NUC
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terrypba1Author Commented:
I'm going to have to get clarification from the vendor. If 20 users of physical desktops each have a folder inside the same virtual machine on the server, and each of their desktops is redirected to their own folder in the one VM, is that considered a virtual desktop?
We hadn't discussed saving desktops at all, so I was surprised when this came up. If we have each user's documents and .pst backed up separately from their physical station to off-site storage, and the database running in a VM on the server, backed up separately, I think I'm happy?
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David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
. If 20 users of physical desktops each have a folder inside the same virtual machine on the server, and each of their desktops is redirected to their own folder in the one VM, is that considered a virtual desktop? in this scenario you have a base.vhd when each user connects they get a differencing vhd that is created on login from the base.vhd.. when they save anything to this machine it goes to the differencing.vhd which is destroyed when they logout.. unless they have a personal vhd associated with their useraccount.  every virtual machine requires its own license.
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