Boot from DVD on unbootable Windows 10 Lenovo laptop

This question is about Lenovo but other brands are of interest.

What I want to do is the following:
1) Turn off Secure Boot so that DVD will boot OR boot from DVD anyway starting with Windows running.  That much is OK as long as Windows is still working.
OR get into the UEFI settings to turn of Secure Boot.  (how?)
2) Boot from DVD and create a hard drive image on an external USB hard drive for safe keeping.
..... then later:
We will assume that the internal hard drive has failed entirely or that I just want to wipe it out.
3) Boot from DVD and write the image from above onto the internal hard drive.

My concern is that one might not be able to boot from the DVD drive in order to do Step 3.

How can I force a Lenovo laptop to let me select the boot device when the hard drive or Windows isn't bootable?  And, maybe Safe Boot is still turned on?  Or, should I be asking a slightly different question?
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAsked:
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
I have a Lenovo ThinkPad X230 that came with Windows 8, was upgraded to Windows 8.1 and UEFI enabled and Secure Boot turned on at that time (late 2013), and was upgraded to Windows 10 - UEFI remains enabled and Secure Boot is still turned on.

Windows 10 is working fine.

If I shut down (power right off), wait 10 seconds, and press the power button, F1 (BIOS) and F12 (Boot order) do not take effect. This is what you are asking about.

If I restart (do not shut down), then right at the point of restart, I can press F1 which now interrupts the startup and BIOS comes up. I can turn Secure Boot OFF if I wish.

My guess (I do not have a blank hard drive for this machine) is that attempting to start without a system will also allow F1 to interrupt the startup (and if F1 can interrupt the startup, so also can F12).

Have you been able to test with a blank hard drive to test this idea?  I think it might work. Certainly if Windows is working, I can boot to BIOS outside of Windows (no Windows setting required).
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
John:  Thank you.  This is an X240.  The manual says you can start the "Setup program" by pressing F1 when the ThinkPad logo is displayed.  But, I take it that this doesn't work for you.  This implies that the Windows 10 installation has something to do with that.

I'm not sure how to "restart" if there's not a viable Windows installation.

But, you also say that you can boot to BIOS outside of Windows with no Windows setting required.
So, I'm a little confused.

The main thing I'm trying to ascertain is how to get into both the BOOT menu and the BIOS Setup program without starting the process while Windows is up and running.  The manual says it's simply the F1 and F12 keys at startup.

Since you're very familiar with these computers, here's what I'm trying to do:
Boot to a DVD with a program that will create an image of the HDD on the laptop on an external USB HD.  The program could be Clonezilla, Acronis, etc.
Later, boot to the same DVD and write the image onto the internal HDD.

I prefer this method because it's generic.  It doesn't matter much which manufacturer the computer comes from.  Then I don't have to dig into manuals and end up using unfamiliar processes to get HDD images for system backup.  In that sense it's reliable and robust.
I see that BitLocker will have to be turned off to do this.

But, I also see that there's a method for Lenovo/Windows.  So in the case of a ThinkPad X240 that's been upgraded to Windows 10, would you suggest a different process?
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
The ThinkPad logo does not appear when booting to Windows 10 from a cold start on my X230 (I am going from recall right this moment because my X230 is running to post this).

It does appear for a short time on restart and that is how I get into BIOS. I did this and reviewed BIOS before posting here.

I think Windows 8.1 reacted the same way as above - that is when Secure Boot was enforced.

From a business perspective, what would be the point of Secure Boot if you could just boot off any DVD? My thinking is that Secure Boot is enforced at cold start (machine stolen, whatever) but can be used on restart (the assumption being that the rightful owner had started the machine).

So I am not sure you can do what you want with Windows 10 at least not with X230 / X240.

Going forward, I am waiting for a version of Symantec System Recovery for Windows 10 (due out this current quarter). They must be dealing with the same thing. Ghost (also Symantec) assumes you boot from a USB key and then create a backup image on a hard drive. I cannot imagine this exact methodology working on Windows 10. So I am waiting for Symantec to update their product.

Did you try a blank hard drive?  I think that might allow you into BIOS.

It may be we have to boot, restart, go into BIOS and turn Secure Boot OFF to do what we wish. This is for a working system. If the system won't boot, I expect you will see the ThinkPad logo and can get into BIOS.
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nobusCommented:
here an article showing how to disable secure boot :  http://www.windowspasswordsrecovery.com/win8-tips/how-to-disable-uefi-secure-boot-in-windows-8-1-8.html

for booting from DVD, use the change boot order  as shown :  https://askleo.com/how_do_i_boot_from_cddvdusb_in_windows_8/

if you do these steps before wiping your OS -  you should have no problems
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Fred - I also found just now that if I press F1 (for my Lenovo) immediately after the power button grabs, I CAN get into BIOS from a cold start (or set the Boot Device). If I wait for the Power on Password request, that is too long.

So it does not matter:  cold start or restart - I can get into BIOS or change the setup on my ThinkPad X230 with Windows 10.

This should work on your X240 as well. You just need to be quick.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
John Hurst:  Yes, with our older machines this seems to be the way to do it.

I remain concerned about newer machines as they start appearing for support.  
I can do the simple (if convoluted) things IF Windows boots.
And, if I were working with my own machines (only) then I could disable Secure Boot from the outset.
But I'm going to get machines thrown in "over the transom".  Then what? .. that's my concern.

nobus: AskLeo page is pretty good..
One suggestion was, if Windows does not boot, to go to the mfr.  OMG!!
Another suggestion was, it will revert to the desired settings if Windows fails to boot twice.

I could be happy to know that this "boot fails twice" situation is at all reliable.  Anyone know?
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
My machine is quite new and I have found I can force it to BIOS so I am thinking any ThinkPad can be so forced. I am going to try on a brand new X250 tomorrow at a client.

Also, I am not disabling Secure Boot - just working around it.
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nobusCommented:
try also removing the bios battery - if you can reach it - with AC cord disconnected
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Fred:  In addition to all the above, you can do the following.

Control Panel, Power Options, Click on "Choose what closing the lid does" and a new dialogue window opens.

At the top (near the top) click on "Change settings that are unavailable"  

Scroll down and Uncheck (Disable) Fast Start (does not affect restart).

This works - I tried it and a colleague tried it and it explains why I can get into BIOS / F12 after restart.

For sure however: 2 things:

1. You CAN get into BIOS with Windows 10. Several ways and completely doable.
2. This is not Windows 7, unsecured boot and not UEFI and we must change our ways.

I hope this helps.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
John,  Thanks.  What I meant was that these computers started out with Windows 7 and likely don't have a "modern" UEFI if at all.....  I'll see one of these today.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
The issues are (as I see it):

1. Secure Boot (not UEFI) is the device that prevents easy boot to BIOS or Boot list.
2. EUFI changes from version to version (Windows 8 to Windows 10) is what causes headaches for backup routines.
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nobusCommented:
are you sure the pc is powered off?  on most systems, windows 8 and later puts them to sleep - no real power off
tot test, remove the AC from the PC, wait a minute, reconnect and restart
do you see a bios message (hit Del key) ?
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Another thing to try with your X240 (nothing much older) and Windows 10, right click on Start and put your mouse on but do not click Restart. Now hold down the shift key and now click Restart. See what happens.

My X230 is older so not all the options are there, but it is how new machines will deal with "BIOS"
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
I have  non-UEFI computer with Windows 8.1 installed.  If I do a SHIFT-Restart from within Windows then the menu that comes up doesn't have the UEFI tweaking menu item that newer computers do show.  Of course, on this one I can use the typical F2 (or ....) to get at the BIOS during boot.  Just FYI.

I believe the answer to my original question is:
"You can't do that Fred!"
The existence of Live CD tools has become an issue with the  concurrent release of UEFI and GPT boot disks (which is actually part of the UEFI specs I understand).

I have posted another question about this.

Thanks for the help with Lenovo!
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Boot from DVD on unbootable Windows 10 Lenovo laptop  

Take the hard drive out and start. It should go to BIOS. Turn Secure Boot OFF.

I think there are a couple of ways to get into your machine, just not the old way.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
We just created a System Image with Windows 10 Pro 64 onto an external USB HD on the Lenovo X240.  This for future restoration.  This machine came originally with Windows 8.x
We then created a Recovery Disk on a CD using an external DVD writer on the X240 (as Windows 10 automatically suggests be done when you make a System Image).

We then tried to boot from the CD using SHIFT-Restart / Start from Device / USB DVD.
The disk wasn't recognized - I believe this must mean the CD itself wasn't recognized as a boot device.
(Secure Boot is off).
I was a little surprised because this CD was written on the system it's intended to be used on.

(It appears that the X240 has NO boot order settings in the UEFI.  I was going to try to make the external USB CD drive the first boot device.  But, no luck there. )

Anyway, it appears the boot Recovery CD isn't going to work anyway as it's not recognized.
I was hoping to boot from the Recovery CD as if the Windows system were dead.
Since we can't, at least we seem to be able to use the Recovery option in the Restart Menu System Options to get at the USB HD with the System Image.  I'll know better later today.
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nobusCommented:
test with a known good bootable cd, or DVD ( you can test it on another system) -  to be sure it's a good , bootable media you created
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
That sounds like a good idea but we'd have to be really careful what kind of system we test it on, no?
UEFI, CSM, old BIOS .....
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
OK.  I got my hands on one of the Lenovo laptops, a ThinkPad L440 from the same owner as the X240 I mentioned earlier.  Now, this one has  UEFI but did come originally with Windows 7.  So the UEFI settings are pretty flexible and it appears it can boot in just about any mode in that regard.

Parentethically, I'm pretty sure that the X240 is a 64-bit machine with 64-bit Windows 10 Pro.  
The L440 *is*.
The other day I was on site and created a restore CD on the X240 myself.  This was done using:
Control Panel | Backup and Restore (WIndows 7) | Create a System Repair Disk
Then, I tried to boot the X240 from this same CD and it couldn't find a bootable CD...
The same computer will boot from an Acronis live CD so I know it works (boots) that way.

Next, I did the same thing with the L4440.
Same result.
So, I tried to boot other computers with the same CD and they also couldn't find a bootable CD.
So, my tentative conclusion was that the CDs being burned on the WIN 10 Pro 64 Lenovo laptops are no good.  Whether it's WIN 10 Pro 64 or Lenovo would remain a question....

So, I burned a System Repair Disk from a 32-bit Windows 10 Pro old BIOS Dell computer.
The L440 will boot from this disk just fine - although I understand it would not be useful for image recovery (being 32-bit).  (See below).

[It's my understanding that the System Repair Disks are generic except there are 32-bit and 64-bit versions.  That is, one can build a 64-bit version and then use it on any Windows 10 64-bit system PLAIN OR PRO.  And 32-bit, same thing.  But, it may not be that way and there may be more restrictive rules.]

Next, I upgraded a Windows 7 Pro 64 system to Windows 10 Pro - so I'd have another one available here.
I burned a System Repair Disk here.  So this one is Windows 10 Pro 64.
I booted the L440 with this disk just fine.
Since this is a 64-bit version, I initiated the image recovery process.
The recovery process found the correct image *for this computer* on the external USB hard drive that we're using to store the images.

I selected to NOT format the drive but to restore the system volume.
It didn't work.  This time there's an error message:
Windows cannot restore system image to a computer that has different firmware.  The system image was created using EFI and this computer is using BIOS.

I don't know what to make of this exactly.  The image *is* labeled that it is EFI.  It came from this self-same computer just two days ago and it's been sitting here in my office since.  I see the following just before the failure:

EFI System partition
C:, \\?\Volume(97ac9210-504a-4084-bd30-d985c58fb170), Q:

Some hypotheses:
1) the CD was burned on a BIOS system.  But that's not what the complaint seems to be about.....
2) the CD is booting in a "BIOS mode" on the L440 perhaps - so it makes the "system" look like a BIOS system??

It appears that we could just go to Acronis or Clonezilla but the Windows approach appears to be the easiest for amateurs to use.  So, I'd like to solve this Windows problem and not get convolved with other approaches right now.  At least now I have the L440 in hand to experiment with.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
So, my tentative conclusion was that the CDs being burned on the WIN 10 Pro 64 Lenovo laptops are no good.  Whether it's WIN 10 Pro 64 or Lenovo would remain a question....

I have had varying success with DVD's made from the OS. I generally procure and rely upon Lenovo-supplied recovery DVD's
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nobusCommented:
on some systems - you can disable uefi in the bios, so it may look like bios

in general, i download the iso file of the windows install disk i need from MS
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10

then i make the DVD - or usb stick from it
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
nobus:  I have Windows install disks.  What I want to do is restore an image.  How are they related?
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
John Hurst:  Would the Lenovo supplied recovery disks restore from a Windows image?
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
It could. It depends on the state of the backup. By the time I am ready for Lenovo DVD's I have backed up and ready to reinstall to factory settings.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
This is a "UEFI BIOS" it says.
The Boot order can be UEFI first or Legacy first.  It was set to Legacy first.
I changed it to see if UEFI first would matter.  It didn't help with THIS problem but it stopped booting from other "normal" boot cds.  So, after testing, I set it back.  (see below).

I presume that the boot process looks for boot sources and, if EFI first, then it boots from one of the EFI sources.  If Legacy first then it boots from one of the Legacy sources.  If the HD is EFI and if EFI is first then a Legacy CD would not be in consideration.  If the HD is EFI and if Legacy is first then a Legacy CD would be bootable just as aboe.  So it's both the setting here AND the combination of sources that determine what is bootable.  That's my interpretation of what I've seen here.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
John Hurst:  I understand.  Thanks.  This little adventure is to save the work in configuring "minimally configured" computers.  The current practice is to start from scratch as you describe.  I'm trying to streamline the process a bit by using images.  Surely data and OS updates, etc. will have to be brought up to date in either case.  But, OS updates can be substantial if starting from the OEM recovery and much less if starting from an image.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
I get the impression that this isn't so much a UEFI / "BIOS" issue but can't tell for sure.

I did an image using and Acronis live CD on the L440.  It was a plain old live CD built on a Windows 7 system.
Then, using the same live CD, I restored from the image.
When restoring, Acronis warned that the system being restored was EFI and would not work on a BIOS system.  Since that wasn't a worry, I did the restore while formatting the target system.  
It worked fine.

So the fundamental questions remain:
Can one use the Windows 10 Control Panel Item "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)" to create a System Repair Disk that will boot from the same system?
- if the computer originated UEFI with Windows 8.1?
- if the computer is a Lenovo
- if the computer is running Windows 10 64-bit?
- if the computer is running Windows 10 Pro 64-bit?
- if the computer is a Lenovo running Windows 1- 32-bit?
and such things....
I have experience with 2 Lenovo Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, a ThinkPad L440 and an X240 and both created System Repair Disks as above that are not bootable.
So, answers like:
- I have a Dell, HP, Toshiba, Lenovo, ASUS, Windows 10 64-bit that came with Windows 8.1 (thus UEFI) and System Repair Disks created on this one are bootable.
- I have one of those and System Repair Disks created on it are NOT bootable.

I believe there's value in determining if there's a common thread in this anomaly.
Is it Lenovo only?  Consistently?
Is it Windows 10 64-bit only?  Consistently?
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David Johnson, CD, MVPOwnerCommented:
When you select the boot options to boot  from optical media / USB if the media is dual boot you will see the same exact device twice.. i.e. SANDISK16G and UEFI SANDISK16G if the hard drive is GPT then you MUST use the EFI boot and not the normal MBR boot..
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Davis McCarnOwnerCommented:
Boy, there's a lot going on here!  But; what the heck, I'll throw my two cents in.....

First is the fact that each manufacturer has different methods for getting into the BIOS and different methods for various models.  There is no universal method to get to a boot menu or into the BIOS.  It doesn't take much Googling to find that answer; but, sometimes, it takes several tries to get it to work!

Second; for me at least, the overriding concern is the health of the hard disk drive and the client's files so I, almost always, yank the drive and connect it to one of 3 PC's I have setup for data recovery, cloning, or forensics and check the health of the hard disk drive immediately.  If its OK, I can then inspect why it isn't booting with Event Log Explorer; but, more often, it is not so I start the process of a sector-by-sector copy to a good hard disk.  Since all of this takes about 15 minutes to get going (except when the drive is buried deep in the guts of the PC), I can't see a more efficient way of getting the job done.

Once cloning has started, I can call the client to discuss their problem and whether they want their data or not.

I have also regularly encountered PC's where malware has corrupted the recovery partition so I'm not surprised when the recovery disks are not bootable.  Its happened on Lenovo's, Dell's, Toshiba's, and HP's so I can't really blame one manufacturer.  In that case, or, if the PC is older, I prefer to use genuine Microsoft DVD's.  Windows 7 has become harder to find; but this tool will let you download and create USB's or ISO's of every flavor of 8, 8.1, or 10: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/media-creation-tool-install

BTW, and in closing, once Windows 10 has activated, it receives a license from an M$ computer and will reactivate if you start with Windows 10.
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Jackie ManCommented:
My two cents are as follows:

Is the hdd encrypted and corrupted that it is beyond normal routines to repair?

Is the system board having some kinds of errors?

I remember that Lenovo should have a usb bootable utility to run hardware diagnosis and if I were you, I will seek assistance from Lenovo first.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
I'm not trying to fix one computer here.  
I'm trying to provide guidance for reasonably-capable users who can make their own images.
Making images to avoid reconfiguration vs. a Windows install from scratch.
They are mostly using Lenovo right now so it's been the focus and will remain so.
Yet, it seems like there's an issue with them .. or the OS .. or ......

The purpose of wanting to boot cold from a CD instead of directing that boot starting within Windows is: What if Windows isn't running?  But no, again this isn't a particular computer.  So, just assume that the hard drive crashed and was replaced with a new one [blank].  Now I want to restore the image....  I hope that's clear.
So, the reason the old hard drive may have gone bad isn't of interest.  We can always decide on a case basis how to fix a computer.  This is about a particular fix *approach*.

Both Lenovo laptops that I've tried would not create bootable CDs.  These CDs are not bootable on any computer it appears.  And, they aren't bootable on the computer that generated them.  
So, I'm trying to figure out "why?" to see if there's a fix using the Windows System Repair Disk approach.

David Johnson:  I'll check to see if there are boot choices that I've missed....

I've pretty much gotten past the issues of UEFI peculiarities from computer to computer (I think, I hope).
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Davis McCarnOwnerCommented:
Creating an image after the system is gescrewdefay is a day late and a dollar short, if you ask me.  I also put an icon on their desktop to create the recovery media and tell them that, if they wait until they need it, its too late.......
We can only do so much to protect folks and what they do with our advice is only effective when they heed it.

After that, the solution to each problem depends on what caused it.  90% of the time, cloning a failing hard disk allows Windows to fix the rest of the problem and, poof, they're back in business.  Removing adware/scumware/ Trojans has become rather mundane; but, all too often, fixing the damage done to Windows may be impossible.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
Davis McCarn:  I surely agree.  Why would anyone image a flaky system?  That's not what I'm talking about here...... I rather thought that would be obvious.  Perhaps not.  The images would be made pre-deployment.  The question of frequency of updates comes to mind though.
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Davis McCarnOwnerCommented:
If you were to install all of the Windows and Office updates, leaving out Adobe Reader and Flash Player, I would feel safe with that image.  I might; though, use a partition or drive small enough for conversion to an SSD as they are getting much less expensive (I just got a Newegg ad with a 240G SSD for $69.00)
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
Davis McCarn:  I understand you to mean that an image with versions of Adobe Reader and Flash Player might be an immediate security risk for lack up current updates.   Is that right?  Then I'd probably include Java in that list.

The process in this case is to take the computer out of service, restore the image and then, presumably get all the updates before putting it back into service.  Might that suffice?

How would one use an SSD?  I think of them being internal devices.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
Can we get back to on 2015-10-25 at 23:06:14ID: 41115824 ??

By this I mean:
Does anyone have a rather new computer (let's say one that was delivered from one of the major OEMs with Windows 8.1 or Windows 10) that is NOW RUNNING Windows 10, that might be willing to try this:
1) Control Panel | Backup and Restore (Windows 7) > Create a system repair disc.
2) Boot any computer (including the computer that burned the disk) from that disc.
Is the disc recognized as bootable?
So far, I've not been able to get this to work on a Windows 10 64 UEFI Lenovo system.
I have been able to get this to work on a Windows 10 32 "BIOS" old Dell system.

I presume you will turn off Secure Boot in order to use the CD for booting as I have done ...
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Davis McCarnOwnerCommented:
OK, its more work than I usually do for an EE question; but, on a Lenovo G500 which had been upgraded from 8 to 10, I created the system repair disk, and it booted right up.  All I had to do was to change the boot order to CD first.  I left the UEFI, secure boot, and legacy options alone.  There was an almost minute long delay after I pressed any key to boot from CD; but, it did boot and work.
Since all it did was to give me a limited set of the options which would have been on a regular Windows 10 DVD, I'll probably use the ISO's of 10 rather than a "repair disk".
The repair disk; though, did have System Image Recovery as one of its options.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
Davis McCarn:  Thanks for that!  Was that one 32 or 64-bit?  All of the ones I have available (that didn't work) are 64-bit.

You make a good point that the Windows 10 DVD should work.  So, I tried that.  

In order to expedite the process, I started from within a Windows boot with a SHIFT-Restart.
(I have yet to remember how to get the thing to boot to a CD on a cold start).

Anyway, it all went well to a point:
The image was recognized on the external USB drive.
But when I tried to recover (formatted), I got this message:

"The system image restore failed.
Windows cannot restore a system image to a computer that has different firmware.  The system image was created on a computer using EFI and the computer is using BIOS."

That seems odd as the computer is supposed to be using EFI.

Next, I checked the UEFI settings and it was set to boot: BOTH, Legacy First.
I switched that to BOTH, UEFI First.
Interesting that CSM is Yes and not settable in this mode.
It looks like that worked and the image was usable.

Next I will check two other things:
- in UEFI First, will the System Repair Disks now boot?
- in UEFI First, will the system still boot from a vanilla live CD like Acronis?

But, back to the beginning, you did answer my question.  I still wonder about 32 vs. 64....
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Davis McCarnOwnerCommented:
It was 64 bit as that was the Windows 8 originally supplied by Lenovo.
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
Davis McCarn:  OK, well that seems to shoot one hypothesis that it's 64-bit causing this.  It didn't seem too likely but it wouldn't be the first time that it's happened.

Because of all the messing about, the user has decided to forego  preserving the post-installation configuration and to just use the Lenovo recovery disks to get back to a good Windows+Drivers situation.  

Thanks everyone for your inputs!
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Fred MarshallPrincipalAuthor Commented:
Thanks everyone!  I realized that the question really changed half way through so I rather split the points between them.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Thanks for the update and I was happy to help.
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