Majed Alanazi
asked on
History Civilization 1
The assignment description is below this text.
regmigrant
Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it.
Simply "Big Bang Theory Theme".
Actually, "In the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth.." Gen 1:1. Man disobeyed in an act of treason against His government; sin entered the world; man fail from paradise; creation was subjected to frustration as a result. The world was completely destroyed by a world-wide flood which buried the dinosaurs that died under deep sediment, giving, atheists the "idea" that it must have taken billions of years to cover them with all that dirt. After that people still ignored God and He knowing that people being able to communicate easily on everything would bring about quicker destruction, and demoralization of people, gave people different languages and they spread out all over the earth to form different people groups--with those with whom they could communicate (Tower of Babel). Then God chose Abraham out of the the land of UR (apparently near or in modern IRAQ and said go where I'll show you. He brought about a promised miracle son through him in his old age. Out of him came two twins, Jacob (later named Israel) and Esau (land of Edom). Jacob had 12 sons that became 12 tribes of Israel. God gave them His law and wanted them to be different from all the world so people would see Him. They missed it, but God brought about His anointed messiah through them--Jesus Christ--His only Son, that man's criminal, treasonous, sin problem might be dealt with and his corrupt heart changed by receiving the gift of eternal life offered through Jesus which in the end will lead those who do to a new immortal body in the next life--forever with God without the enmity brought about by that disobedience. The rest is just time, events and details.
But like the rest I have no idea what you are asking for.
But like the rest I have no idea what you are asking for.
- please provide a concrete example in which human endeavour has had a better outcome as a result of poor communication?
@regmigrant
God was just worried that they would get into heaven without a pass.
I assume the Tower of Babel was going to be a lot taller than the Burj Khalifa, as he had no objection to that - or at least none that he made public. And, any stories of people in space must be nothing but myths: nobody should be allowed to get that close to heaven!
Or maybe heaven has been moved since biblical times, when god realised that it would be easier to move heaven a few billion kilometres, than to stop people from getting into space.
God was just worried that they would get into heaven without a pass.
I assume the Tower of Babel was going to be a lot taller than the Burj Khalifa, as he had no objection to that - or at least none that he made public. And, any stories of people in space must be nothing but myths: nobody should be allowed to get that close to heaven!
Or maybe heaven has been moved since biblical times, when god realised that it would be easier to move heaven a few billion kilometres, than to stop people from getting into space.
@hdhondt: No one will get into heaven without a pass and there is ONLY ONE. Jesus said “...I amTHE WAY, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14: 6 ESV (emphasis and capitalization mine)
He's not a way among many, but the only.
He also said:
The way to heaven is through Jesus. At Babel, they were trying to build their own way to heaven. It is a ludicrous and impossible task to mask it on your own merit and strength to heaven. God's original command was to FILL the earth and subdue it. You can't do that if you congregate in one plain in one place to do your own thing. So He gave them different languages so they would separate to various parts of the globe and obey the original command.
He's not a way among many, but the only.
He also said:
7So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.John 10:7-9ESV
The way to heaven is through Jesus. At Babel, they were trying to build their own way to heaven. It is a ludicrous and impossible task to mask it on your own merit and strength to heaven. God's original command was to FILL the earth and subdue it. You can't do that if you congregate in one plain in one place to do your own thing. So He gave them different languages so they would separate to various parts of the globe and obey the original command.
"The answer to life the universe and everything IS..... 42" Deep Thought, book 1, chapter 7 (maybe)
@regmigrant
Douglas Adams' answer makes a lot more sense than SStory's. Although the Bible's stories are (almost) as much fun as The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
And I object to being called a sheep!
Douglas Adams' answer makes a lot more sense than SStory's. Although the Bible's stories are (almost) as much fun as The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
And I object to being called a sheep!
He's not a way among many, but the only.In your opinion. Tao is also "The Way". Muhammad says Jesus is not the way, though he was the Messiah for the Jews. Zoroastrians don't need Jesus to get to paradise (heaven). Hindus, Buddhists, and many others have ways to heaven/paradise/nirvana/wh
It may indeed be that Jesus actually is The Way for the Children of Israel. It's a matter of personal belief anywhere else.
But it's mostly irrelevant for this question. It's only a side topic about any role religion in general has in "Civilization". For any given "civilization", Jesus might not even matter.
@hdhondt: "And I object to being called a sheep!" If you object that means you are not a sheep, but a goat.
The Bible says Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats at the end of the world. Tao is not "the way" but it claims to be. Muhammad died and is still in his grave. Jesus did and arose. You will never find His body in the grave. The proof was in the pudding. Man has invented many ways to get to God. But if God says there is only one, there is only one. We could make up a new one today that says you must gargle peanut butter, stand on your head three times a week and you will for sure go to heaven...but it would be lie. There are many lies about how to get there, but they won't get you there. Like God or not...like His word or not...it doesn't change the fact that He is in charge and His word will stand. In the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. It is a fact. He will reject those that didn't try to come to God through Him (figuratively the gate). The analogy is that only thieves and robbers try to get in over the fence or under it and not through the gate. The true "sheep" belong to their Shepherd, hear his voice and enter the gate. That is what the parable is about. It is a choice to believe or not. I can choose to not believe in gravity but it won't change the truth of it if I jump from an 80 story building without a parashoot. The truth of gravity will shortly impact me in a negative way just like once a person dies, the truth of Jesus being the only way will forever impact those who do not know Him and reject His government, His gift and His love.
I disagree. The is a war on right now by so called radical Islam to destroy all of western "civilization" and subjugate the world to slavery and forced conversions, etc. We see evidence of this almost daily. What you believe and in Whom you trust really does matter and really does affect civilization. In India, people have their potential dinner walking down the road (cows); and rats eating their food. They won't eat the cows of kill the rats because they believe Uncle Abib might be living in one of them or for some other reason. The rats eat the grain. So people starve in India because of faulty religious beliefs. Also the caste system takes away all hope from certain classes and there is even a classesless (casteless) people who are considered good only to be bathroom cleaners and such all of their existence and their children. By religious belief, in Calcutta and other places if a baby is born with a cleft palate he/she is considered cursed by the gods and the father takes the baby, puts a sheet or blanket over its head and stomps its head on the porch to kill it. Or they abandon them in the dumps or on the street corner. They abandon blind and disabled on the corners as well. This is uncivilized and a result of faulty religious beliefs and not knowing Jesus who teaches the worth of each individual person who is made in God's image. In America, people who serve the "god" of "self" or humanism/selfishness, abort/murder babies all of the time for similar reasons. This comes from not knowing Jesus and having a heart transformation. So it is very relevant to society. I could give countless examples. What we believe, matters and affects all of life for us and those around us. These people blowing themselves up, do so because of what they believe. They are sincere, convinced, dedicated...but wrong.
The Bible says Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats at the end of the world. Tao is not "the way" but it claims to be. Muhammad died and is still in his grave. Jesus did and arose. You will never find His body in the grave. The proof was in the pudding. Man has invented many ways to get to God. But if God says there is only one, there is only one. We could make up a new one today that says you must gargle peanut butter, stand on your head three times a week and you will for sure go to heaven...but it would be lie. There are many lies about how to get there, but they won't get you there. Like God or not...like His word or not...it doesn't change the fact that He is in charge and His word will stand. In the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. It is a fact. He will reject those that didn't try to come to God through Him (figuratively the gate). The analogy is that only thieves and robbers try to get in over the fence or under it and not through the gate. The true "sheep" belong to their Shepherd, hear his voice and enter the gate. That is what the parable is about. It is a choice to believe or not. I can choose to not believe in gravity but it won't change the truth of it if I jump from an 80 story building without a parashoot. The truth of gravity will shortly impact me in a negative way just like once a person dies, the truth of Jesus being the only way will forever impact those who do not know Him and reject His government, His gift and His love.
I disagree. The is a war on right now by so called radical Islam to destroy all of western "civilization" and subjugate the world to slavery and forced conversions, etc. We see evidence of this almost daily. What you believe and in Whom you trust really does matter and really does affect civilization. In India, people have their potential dinner walking down the road (cows); and rats eating their food. They won't eat the cows of kill the rats because they believe Uncle Abib might be living in one of them or for some other reason. The rats eat the grain. So people starve in India because of faulty religious beliefs. Also the caste system takes away all hope from certain classes and there is even a classesless (casteless) people who are considered good only to be bathroom cleaners and such all of their existence and their children. By religious belief, in Calcutta and other places if a baby is born with a cleft palate he/she is considered cursed by the gods and the father takes the baby, puts a sheet or blanket over its head and stomps its head on the porch to kill it. Or they abandon them in the dumps or on the street corner. They abandon blind and disabled on the corners as well. This is uncivilized and a result of faulty religious beliefs and not knowing Jesus who teaches the worth of each individual person who is made in God's image. In America, people who serve the "god" of "self" or humanism/selfishness, abort/murder babies all of the time for similar reasons. This comes from not knowing Jesus and having a heart transformation. So it is very relevant to society. I could give countless examples. What we believe, matters and affects all of life for us and those around us. These people blowing themselves up, do so because of what they believe. They are sincere, convinced, dedicated...but wrong.
@SStory
Need I remind you of the Inquisition, the fact that Martin Luther wanted to exterminate Jews, etc? All done in the name of Jesus. And, as we discussed in another question, what about genocide, stoning, etc, all demanded by your god, clearly stated in your Bible.
Give me secular morality any day, it beats the hell out of any religious mumbo-jumbo. It is the reason why Christian morality is better than most other religions, and heaps better than Christian morality was 500 years ago. Secular morality learns from observation and experience, not from a millennia old book.
Need I remind you of the Inquisition, the fact that Martin Luther wanted to exterminate Jews, etc? All done in the name of Jesus. And, as we discussed in another question, what about genocide, stoning, etc, all demanded by your god, clearly stated in your Bible.
Give me secular morality any day, it beats the hell out of any religious mumbo-jumbo. It is the reason why Christian morality is better than most other religions, and heaps better than Christian morality was 500 years ago. Secular morality learns from observation and experience, not from a millennia old book.
You will never find His body in the grave.Which is pretty meaningless. ImHoTep's body apparently will also never be found, and he (allegedly) raised a dead person, and was deified, and... Well, in any case, not finding the bodies of perhaps the vast majority of persons from 2000 or more years ago is... well,... meaningless.
There has been a "war" with radical Islamists for 1400 years, not just between western Christianity and them but with many non-Muslims, e.g., Hindus/Buddhists. The major modern issue in our ("western") case comes out of 'our' political and economic meddling in their part of the world. Oddly enough, some of them decided to fight back after a good part of a century's worth of profiting at their expense.
I usually avoid debate about religious belief because it's pointless but....
what did the goat's do to generate such ire? - I'm sure there are many well meaning goats who deserve redemption
If God only wants sheep to be redeemed why bother giving anyone the intelligence to question anything; leave it all to instinct and we'd be 'happier' anyway - does he need worship? If so then by definition he/she/it can't be omnipotent as well
There have been genocides and atrocities by and on all the major religions both within their own ranks and more commonly against each other because all men are imperfect, all religions are created by men, therefore all religions are imperfect. Saying any one is better than any other is one example of imperfection because it excludes the idea that god might speak to an Indian differently than how he might speak to an American - when clearly they have very different needs. Ask the Inca's, the Native Americans, the Aborogines about the 'righteous' Christians and forgive the muslims some of their anger after reading about the crusades.
If gargling peanut butter isn't a way into heaven how do you know that Jesus *is* the way ? because he said so? what if he also said 'gargle peanut butter' would you do that too? On this argument then 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess' is very much the same as 'stand on your head'.
And what does 'confess' mean in this context anyway? If I confess something then it means I did something I'm ashamed of so if I confess Jesus is the Lord then presumably I'm ashamed of not believing that Jesus is the lord but, having never met him, I haven't expressed such an opinion so what do I have to be ashamed of?
what did the goat's do to generate such ire? - I'm sure there are many well meaning goats who deserve redemption
If God only wants sheep to be redeemed why bother giving anyone the intelligence to question anything; leave it all to instinct and we'd be 'happier' anyway - does he need worship? If so then by definition he/she/it can't be omnipotent as well
There have been genocides and atrocities by and on all the major religions both within their own ranks and more commonly against each other because all men are imperfect, all religions are created by men, therefore all religions are imperfect. Saying any one is better than any other is one example of imperfection because it excludes the idea that god might speak to an Indian differently than how he might speak to an American - when clearly they have very different needs. Ask the Inca's, the Native Americans, the Aborogines about the 'righteous' Christians and forgive the muslims some of their anger after reading about the crusades.
If gargling peanut butter isn't a way into heaven how do you know that Jesus *is* the way ? because he said so? what if he also said 'gargle peanut butter' would you do that too? On this argument then 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess' is very much the same as 'stand on your head'.
And what does 'confess' mean in this context anyway? If I confess something then it means I did something I'm ashamed of so if I confess Jesus is the Lord then presumably I'm ashamed of not believing that Jesus is the lord but, having never met him, I haven't expressed such an opinion so what do I have to be ashamed of?
@hdhondt:
>Need I remind you of the Inquisition, the fact that Martin Luther wanted to exterminate Jews, etc? All done in >the >name of Jesus.
A lot of evil has been done in the name of Jesus by the Catholic church. That does not mean they were practicing Biblical Christianity. In fact they persecuted and martyred many true Christians. They were largely the enemy of God's true church during that time. See Foxes Book of the Martyrs. Martin Luther was a great reformer. I have not personally read the book you mention in order to comment. However, the God the Jesus serve (old testament called them a whore many times. In fact He said they were worse than a whore because they didn't demand payment but rather payed their "lovers" See Isaiah, Ezekiel and many other books of the prophets. This is figurative because God considered Israel--the Jews to be His covenant people and spiritually speaking, His bride. She (Israel) had become unfaithful in seeking out every vile practice and false god of surrounding nations and turning her back on her spiritual husband in gross unfaithfulness and played the harlot. Very graphic language is used by the prophets to convey this. Any Jew who is honest about those scriptures would have to admit this unfaithfulness and the resulting Babylonian captivity and later destruction of Jerusalem around AD70. If Martin Luther was referring to these things, it would sound awful to a non-believer who wouldn't understand the meaning and in fact what they did was awful. They did turn their back on God. Has He written them of as a people forever? No. He wants to see them turn again to Him as a people. I am not against the Jews. We Christians and Jews have the same roots. We just know that Jesus is the Messiah and they either are still waiting for one or have decided to reinterpret scripture to no longer need one. I could see Martin Luther writing about what took place. Speaking the truth about what Israel did, doesn't make one anti-Semitic, but a simple, honest historian. I don't want to see a single Jew harmed. I am NOT for the holocaust that took place. Or the hatred of the Jewish people that many have. I love the Jewish people and pray God will open their eyes to Jesus as the Messiah.
>Give me secular morality any day....its the reason why Christian morality is better than most other religions, >and heaps better than Christian morality was 500 years ago.
No it is not. You are comparing what the Catholic Church did at a time when it as NOT following Christ--for sure, to the true Christian Church which brought about America as a nation, our laws and the freedoms we now endure was well. Secular morality is an oxymoron. There is NO morality apart from God. Whatever morality you know of has been placed in your heart by God or you have observed through true Christianity or its teachings.
@tliotta: If they were to win, you won't be having these conversations any more.
>Need I remind you of the Inquisition, the fact that Martin Luther wanted to exterminate Jews, etc? All done in >the >name of Jesus.
A lot of evil has been done in the name of Jesus by the Catholic church. That does not mean they were practicing Biblical Christianity. In fact they persecuted and martyred many true Christians. They were largely the enemy of God's true church during that time. See Foxes Book of the Martyrs. Martin Luther was a great reformer. I have not personally read the book you mention in order to comment. However, the God the Jesus serve (old testament called them a whore many times. In fact He said they were worse than a whore because they didn't demand payment but rather payed their "lovers" See Isaiah, Ezekiel and many other books of the prophets. This is figurative because God considered Israel--the Jews to be His covenant people and spiritually speaking, His bride. She (Israel) had become unfaithful in seeking out every vile practice and false god of surrounding nations and turning her back on her spiritual husband in gross unfaithfulness and played the harlot. Very graphic language is used by the prophets to convey this. Any Jew who is honest about those scriptures would have to admit this unfaithfulness and the resulting Babylonian captivity and later destruction of Jerusalem around AD70. If Martin Luther was referring to these things, it would sound awful to a non-believer who wouldn't understand the meaning and in fact what they did was awful. They did turn their back on God. Has He written them of as a people forever? No. He wants to see them turn again to Him as a people. I am not against the Jews. We Christians and Jews have the same roots. We just know that Jesus is the Messiah and they either are still waiting for one or have decided to reinterpret scripture to no longer need one. I could see Martin Luther writing about what took place. Speaking the truth about what Israel did, doesn't make one anti-Semitic, but a simple, honest historian. I don't want to see a single Jew harmed. I am NOT for the holocaust that took place. Or the hatred of the Jewish people that many have. I love the Jewish people and pray God will open their eyes to Jesus as the Messiah.
>Give me secular morality any day....its the reason why Christian morality is better than most other religions, >and heaps better than Christian morality was 500 years ago.
No it is not. You are comparing what the Catholic Church did at a time when it as NOT following Christ--for sure, to the true Christian Church which brought about America as a nation, our laws and the freedoms we now endure was well. Secular morality is an oxymoron. There is NO morality apart from God. Whatever morality you know of has been placed in your heart by God or you have observed through true Christianity or its teachings.
@tliotta: If they were to win, you won't be having these conversations any more.
@regmigrant:
These are great questions and I will try to answer them honestly as possible.
If a person is truly seeking to know God, God will reveal Himself through Christ, through the Bible and other people. These appear to be genuine questions. May He show you His truth.
>what did the goat's do to generate such ire? - I'm sure there are many well meaning goats who deserve >redemption
Romans chapter 1 explains it all in great detail. But you are starting with a false presupposition that people are basically good. And that good you come up with is in comparing one person to another. Only God determines what is truly good and only the first two people, who were perfect were capable of that goodness. You see He made perfect, flawless people, with His Spirit dwelling within them and absolute perfect harmony with Him, Creation and each other. With free will they could obey or not. They were deceived and chose to disobey. This was treason against the Universal King. They punishment of an offense against and eternal being by a finite being is eternal punishment without ever being able to pay. So all born after Adam and Eve were born under this curse. Creation was subjected to futility. Death, sickness, sorrow, crime, etc entered into the now fallen world. Man became self-centered, self-worshipping, self-ish, perverse, and spiritually dead and without God and at enmity with Him. Man cannot redeem as it is written:
Romans 1:1-18 says:
10 and 11 state that no one is good and none seek after God. We are all in a pickle. Our only hope was for someone else who is perfect to live perfectly and die as a substitute for us, paying the debt we owe and crediting our account with His righteousness. The good news (gospel) is that Jesus did just that. Being God, He was righteous, perfect and able to measure up, pay the penalty and offer His righteousness to our account. Receiving Him clears our criminal record in Heaven and make us a new creation on earth and destines us to Heaven when death comes. This body is fallen and most die, but after death a new immortal perfect body will be given.
>If God only wants sheep to be redeemed why bother giving anyone the intelligence to question anything; leave >it all to instinct and we'd be 'happier' anyway - does he need worship? If so then by definition he/she/it can't be >omnipotent as well
God doesn't need ANYTHING. "The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." He knows that whatever we worship we will become like. Since He is the most valuable, most Holy, most perfect, greatest "thing" in the universe to worship, then worshiping Him, is what we become like and it for our greatest good. He wants this for us for our benefit. He doesn't lack anything or need anything but out of great love made a way through the cross with Christ. He made hell for the devil and the fallen angels and doesn't want us to go there. So there is a way. The way, Jesus, requires: 100% total surrender, inviting Him into our hearts, turning from our sins, following Him as the boss, the King, the Lord that He is. In exchange...abundant life and eternal life and more...
It is the best deal any human will ever get on this world.
>all men are imperfect, all religions are created by men, therefore all religions are imperfect.
All religions ARE created by men. Christianity is not about a "religion" It is about a relationship with Holy God, brought about through the only means He made available--Jesus....not the Catholic Church or any other church, but Jesus Himself. See Romans 3:23; 6:23; 10:9; 10:13 and John 3:16 for more information.
> how do you know that Jesus *is* the way
By inviting Him to rule in my heart, His Spirit now lives within me and He's changed my life. I see the world through His eyes more so that before and love people I couldn't love before and know in Whom I have placed my faith. He has been the most faithful friend I've ever known.
>And what does 'confess' mean in this context anyway? If I confess something then it means I did something I'm >ashamed of so if I confess Jesus is the Lord then presumably I'm ashamed of not believing that Jesus is the >lord but, having never met him, I haven't expressed such an opinion so what do I have to be ashamed of?
If you arrive at the point in the afterlife without knowing Him, you WILL bow and confess that He is who He says He is and King, but it will not save you and will be too late. Confessing Him as King and Lord and Savior in this life is what is required (inviting Him into your heart, spiritually to transform your life). It is not up to us to change our lives...we can't do that... He does a work in us and we become a new creation on the inside. Our desires are changed so that we no longer desire the evil things we once did. As He said in the old testament...I will write my laws on their hearts.
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:33ESV Jesus...salvation is the new covenant offered to Israel and all of us
He gives us a heart change and makes us a new creation on the inside. The Holy Spirit comes to live in us and guides, convicts, and changes us to be like Christ.
All man made religions teach works. You must do a bunch of stuff to measure up. Biblical Christianity teaches that you can't measure up--you are hopeless and need a Saviour who could do what you can't. He measures up and if you receive Him into your heart your criminal debt in heaven is marked "PAID IN FULL", and your heart on earth is changed and you are made brand new.
These are great questions and I will try to answer them honestly as possible.
If a person is truly seeking to know God, God will reveal Himself through Christ, through the Bible and other people. These appear to be genuine questions. May He show you His truth.
>what did the goat's do to generate such ire? - I'm sure there are many well meaning goats who deserve >redemption
Romans chapter 1 explains it all in great detail. But you are starting with a false presupposition that people are basically good. And that good you come up with is in comparing one person to another. Only God determines what is truly good and only the first two people, who were perfect were capable of that goodness. You see He made perfect, flawless people, with His Spirit dwelling within them and absolute perfect harmony with Him, Creation and each other. With free will they could obey or not. They were deceived and chose to disobey. This was treason against the Universal King. They punishment of an offense against and eternal being by a finite being is eternal punishment without ever being able to pay. So all born after Adam and Eve were born under this curse. Creation was subjected to futility. Death, sickness, sorrow, crime, etc entered into the now fallen world. Man became self-centered, self-worshipping, self-ish, perverse, and spiritually dead and without God and at enmity with Him. Man cannot redeem as it is written:
Romans 1:1-18 says:
“10 None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16
in their paths are ruin and misery,
17
and the way of peace they have not known.”
18
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”Himself.
10 and 11 state that no one is good and none seek after God. We are all in a pickle. Our only hope was for someone else who is perfect to live perfectly and die as a substitute for us, paying the debt we owe and crediting our account with His righteousness. The good news (gospel) is that Jesus did just that. Being God, He was righteous, perfect and able to measure up, pay the penalty and offer His righteousness to our account. Receiving Him clears our criminal record in Heaven and make us a new creation on earth and destines us to Heaven when death comes. This body is fallen and most die, but after death a new immortal perfect body will be given.
>If God only wants sheep to be redeemed why bother giving anyone the intelligence to question anything; leave >it all to instinct and we'd be 'happier' anyway - does he need worship? If so then by definition he/she/it can't be >omnipotent as well
God doesn't need ANYTHING. "The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." He knows that whatever we worship we will become like. Since He is the most valuable, most Holy, most perfect, greatest "thing" in the universe to worship, then worshiping Him, is what we become like and it for our greatest good. He wants this for us for our benefit. He doesn't lack anything or need anything but out of great love made a way through the cross with Christ. He made hell for the devil and the fallen angels and doesn't want us to go there. So there is a way. The way, Jesus, requires: 100% total surrender, inviting Him into our hearts, turning from our sins, following Him as the boss, the King, the Lord that He is. In exchange...abundant life and eternal life and more...
It is the best deal any human will ever get on this world.
>all men are imperfect, all religions are created by men, therefore all religions are imperfect.
All religions ARE created by men. Christianity is not about a "religion" It is about a relationship with Holy God, brought about through the only means He made available--Jesus....not the Catholic Church or any other church, but Jesus Himself. See Romans 3:23; 6:23; 10:9; 10:13 and John 3:16 for more information.
> how do you know that Jesus *is* the way
By inviting Him to rule in my heart, His Spirit now lives within me and He's changed my life. I see the world through His eyes more so that before and love people I couldn't love before and know in Whom I have placed my faith. He has been the most faithful friend I've ever known.
>And what does 'confess' mean in this context anyway? If I confess something then it means I did something I'm >ashamed of so if I confess Jesus is the Lord then presumably I'm ashamed of not believing that Jesus is the >lord but, having never met him, I haven't expressed such an opinion so what do I have to be ashamed of?
If you arrive at the point in the afterlife without knowing Him, you WILL bow and confess that He is who He says He is and King, but it will not save you and will be too late. Confessing Him as King and Lord and Savior in this life is what is required (inviting Him into your heart, spiritually to transform your life). It is not up to us to change our lives...we can't do that... He does a work in us and we become a new creation on the inside. Our desires are changed so that we no longer desire the evil things we once did. As He said in the old testament...I will write my laws on their hearts.
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:33ESV Jesus...salvation is the new covenant offered to Israel and all of us
He gives us a heart change and makes us a new creation on the inside. The Holy Spirit comes to live in us and guides, convicts, and changes us to be like Christ.
All man made religions teach works. You must do a bunch of stuff to measure up. Biblical Christianity teaches that you can't measure up--you are hopeless and need a Saviour who could do what you can't. He measures up and if you receive Him into your heart your criminal debt in heaven is marked "PAID IN FULL", and your heart on earth is changed and you are made brand new.
@SStory
What particular flavour of Christianity are you? Catholics have done awful things (e.g. Inquisition), Protestants have done awful things (e.g. Luther, Salem Witch hunt), fundamentalists have done awful things (e.g. murdering abortion doctors, trying to keep science - evolution - out of schools, hoping for WWIII as it would mean the return of Christ). Yet they all did it in the name of their interpretation of god and the Bible. All of them were dead sure that they were right.
So, are you saying that your particular interpretation of god and the Bible is the only correct one? I suppose you have the Bible to prove it?
Give us a break, mate.
What particular flavour of Christianity are you? Catholics have done awful things (e.g. Inquisition), Protestants have done awful things (e.g. Luther, Salem Witch hunt), fundamentalists have done awful things (e.g. murdering abortion doctors, trying to keep science - evolution - out of schools, hoping for WWIII as it would mean the return of Christ). Yet they all did it in the name of their interpretation of god and the Bible. All of them were dead sure that they were right.
So, are you saying that your particular interpretation of god and the Bible is the only correct one? I suppose you have the Bible to prove it?
Give us a break, mate.
@hdhondt I am just an actual Christian..which means a follower of Christ. Jesus NEVER taught to blow up abortion clinics. Although the I am sure he hates the murder of abortion. He never taught to kill abortion doctors. Evolution is a theory. Originally all that was in school was the teaching of creationism. Evloutionists just wanted to be able to teach the theory. Now those who wanted a little tolerance to teach their theory, teach it as fact and tolerate no dissension. (It's pretty sad and hypocritical)
I'm not sure what evil you think Martin Luther did. He protested the things that were wrong with the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church, burned, tortured and murdered the followers of Christ all because of the following:
* The bible teaches that Jesus is the head of His church.....true followers always believe this. The Catholics said, nope...it's the pope. (Not biblical)
* The Catholic Church teaches that the Lord's supper actually becomes the body and blood of Jesus. Christ's followers know that it is only a symbolism and reminder for followers of His sacrifice and renewal of convenient commitment
The Catholics I've had any dealings with seem more dedicated to praying to Mary and "the saints" than to God through Jesus.
The bible never advocates praying to any of them. In the bible, saints are not someone nominated by the church, but every person who is truly born again in Jesus Christ is a saint by virtue of what He did and not what they do or did. When Jesus walked the earth, someone tried to elevate his mother and brothers and He said that his mother and brothers---I.e. His family--were those that did the will of God the Father. Someone said blessed is she have breast fed you.....Jesus didn't reciprocate that but said something similar.
The only command Mary ever gave in the Bible was at the wedding feast when Jesus turned the water into wine. She told the servant, WHATEVER HE [Jesus] tells you to do, do it. The water became wine.
Jesus, in the NEW TESTAMENT teaches us of God's love and grace and that we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Of course this is as individual believers. When it gets to the governmental level, governments have wars and defend themselves and execute judgement on murderes and the like since those positions of authority were establish by God.
I agree that a lot of deranged and deceived people who didn't know their Bible we'll have claimed to know Christ and done some bad things. Those who truly know Him are different. Consider Jim Elliot and his companions who were martyred by savages in Ecuador. They had guns and could have killed them, but they didn't. They died in hopes of bringing them the good news. Later their wives, in an incredible act of forgiveness went to live with those tribes and saw them converted to genuine Christianity which loves enemies and prays for them and overcomes evil with good.
People who hope for WWIII are also deceived into a relatively new premillennialism teaching. I do not share that view. I do know that in the end God will destroy and recreate this earth and that in the end a severe judgment will finally come upon the inhabitants of the earth...which although horrid beyond belief, fails to compare to the eternity in hell that awaits unbelievers.
I'm sure that we all make mistakes in interpretation and need correcting by the Holy Spirit, however, the people you are mentioning failed to get even the fundamentals---the essentials--correct. So they do not represent true, biblical Christianity. Many have taken a verse of two out of context and done some really awful things. No one at my church has out blowing up people, or killing people. Instead, they are reaching out to the poor, the undesirable, those that the world has thrown away and pointing them to love and life in Jesus Christ. This is true Christianity. The God of the bible is the Father of the Fatherless. He looks after widows, orphans, etc.
Am I the perfect Christian? No. Do I know the basics? Yes. Would I kill an abortionist? No? Would I shoot someone who broke into my house in order to defend my family? Yes, if that was the only way. Do I believe in capital punishment? Yes. Do I worship anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? No, and if I find my heart in any sort of idolatry--which is exalting anything above God--could be anything--then I repent of that sin. As to the witch hunt, those folks took an Old Testament verse that says "suffer not a witch to live" and went with it. This was written to the people of Israel before the time of Christ and the sending of the Holy Spirit, to keep from corrupting the people of Israel. Again, immature people, or possibly immature believers, led astray by someone. Now, if it were the government and there were a law against witchcraft that carried the death penalty, that might be a different story, but the way those people went about coercion of people of drowning them to confess and killing them when they did was absolutely ridiculous.
I agree with you in that people can be very sincere and very wrong about anything. However, true Christians who have matured in the word of God and become more Christ like will be more like the actual Christ. Who did Christ kill? Who did He beat up? Name one bad thing that He did. He is the example....the pattern for all believers. Obviously none of us are perfect, and compared to Him we will always fall short.
Jesus said at the end of time MANY will stand before Him...here's the accounting:
21) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On) that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" - Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
So here we have Jesus saying that many will stand before Him and call Him Lord and list their works....some pretty good seeming works at that--but all counterfeit works that are done without Christ by people claiming to know Him. The issue of all issues is stated in verse 23. It is not about works and not about what you do or don't do, it is about WHO you know. He says, "I never knew you." That means you never had a personal, saving, relationship with Me. In this one verse Jesus shows that the teachings of many religions about a whole bunch of works is not the actual thing that gains eternal life and entrance into Heaven. Verse 23 shows that one needs a genuine personal relationship Jesus to be saved (Romans 10:9, 13), and other parts of the Bible teach that those who really know Jesus will evidence that reality of relationship by doing the good works that He prepared in advance for them to do. So good works don't save us, but they do follow the saved as an indication of genuine relationship...there should be real fruit.
Blessings to you.
I'm not sure what evil you think Martin Luther did. He protested the things that were wrong with the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church, burned, tortured and murdered the followers of Christ all because of the following:
* The bible teaches that Jesus is the head of His church.....true followers always believe this. The Catholics said, nope...it's the pope. (Not biblical)
* The Catholic Church teaches that the Lord's supper actually becomes the body and blood of Jesus. Christ's followers know that it is only a symbolism and reminder for followers of His sacrifice and renewal of convenient commitment
The Catholics I've had any dealings with seem more dedicated to praying to Mary and "the saints" than to God through Jesus.
The bible never advocates praying to any of them. In the bible, saints are not someone nominated by the church, but every person who is truly born again in Jesus Christ is a saint by virtue of what He did and not what they do or did. When Jesus walked the earth, someone tried to elevate his mother and brothers and He said that his mother and brothers---I.e. His family--were those that did the will of God the Father. Someone said blessed is she have breast fed you.....Jesus didn't reciprocate that but said something similar.
The only command Mary ever gave in the Bible was at the wedding feast when Jesus turned the water into wine. She told the servant, WHATEVER HE [Jesus] tells you to do, do it. The water became wine.
Jesus, in the NEW TESTAMENT teaches us of God's love and grace and that we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Of course this is as individual believers. When it gets to the governmental level, governments have wars and defend themselves and execute judgement on murderes and the like since those positions of authority were establish by God.
I agree that a lot of deranged and deceived people who didn't know their Bible we'll have claimed to know Christ and done some bad things. Those who truly know Him are different. Consider Jim Elliot and his companions who were martyred by savages in Ecuador. They had guns and could have killed them, but they didn't. They died in hopes of bringing them the good news. Later their wives, in an incredible act of forgiveness went to live with those tribes and saw them converted to genuine Christianity which loves enemies and prays for them and overcomes evil with good.
People who hope for WWIII are also deceived into a relatively new premillennialism teaching. I do not share that view. I do know that in the end God will destroy and recreate this earth and that in the end a severe judgment will finally come upon the inhabitants of the earth...which although horrid beyond belief, fails to compare to the eternity in hell that awaits unbelievers.
I'm sure that we all make mistakes in interpretation and need correcting by the Holy Spirit, however, the people you are mentioning failed to get even the fundamentals---the essentials--correct. So they do not represent true, biblical Christianity. Many have taken a verse of two out of context and done some really awful things. No one at my church has out blowing up people, or killing people. Instead, they are reaching out to the poor, the undesirable, those that the world has thrown away and pointing them to love and life in Jesus Christ. This is true Christianity. The God of the bible is the Father of the Fatherless. He looks after widows, orphans, etc.
Am I the perfect Christian? No. Do I know the basics? Yes. Would I kill an abortionist? No? Would I shoot someone who broke into my house in order to defend my family? Yes, if that was the only way. Do I believe in capital punishment? Yes. Do I worship anyone other than the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? No, and if I find my heart in any sort of idolatry--which is exalting anything above God--could be anything--then I repent of that sin. As to the witch hunt, those folks took an Old Testament verse that says "suffer not a witch to live" and went with it. This was written to the people of Israel before the time of Christ and the sending of the Holy Spirit, to keep from corrupting the people of Israel. Again, immature people, or possibly immature believers, led astray by someone. Now, if it were the government and there were a law against witchcraft that carried the death penalty, that might be a different story, but the way those people went about coercion of people of drowning them to confess and killing them when they did was absolutely ridiculous.
I agree with you in that people can be very sincere and very wrong about anything. However, true Christians who have matured in the word of God and become more Christ like will be more like the actual Christ. Who did Christ kill? Who did He beat up? Name one bad thing that He did. He is the example....the pattern for all believers. Obviously none of us are perfect, and compared to Him we will always fall short.
Jesus said at the end of time MANY will stand before Him...here's the accounting:
21) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On) that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" - Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
So here we have Jesus saying that many will stand before Him and call Him Lord and list their works....some pretty good seeming works at that--but all counterfeit works that are done without Christ by people claiming to know Him. The issue of all issues is stated in verse 23. It is not about works and not about what you do or don't do, it is about WHO you know. He says, "I never knew you." That means you never had a personal, saving, relationship with Me. In this one verse Jesus shows that the teachings of many religions about a whole bunch of works is not the actual thing that gains eternal life and entrance into Heaven. Verse 23 shows that one needs a genuine personal relationship Jesus to be saved (Romans 10:9, 13), and other parts of the Bible teach that those who really know Jesus will evidence that reality of relationship by doing the good works that He prepared in advance for them to do. So good works don't save us, but they do follow the saved as an indication of genuine relationship...there should be real fruit.
Blessings to you.
I am just an actual Christian..which means a follower of Christ.And so were all the others I mentioned. In their opinion they followed Christ, because that was the way they interpreted the Bible - the same book you are using to get "the answer to life, the universe and everything". (In case you did not know, the answer is 42.)
I'm not saying that you are not a good person, but I am saying that following the Bible will not make you one. I'll admit that Jesus' teachings were a lot better than those of the Old Testament, but modern, secular morality outperforms even his teachings.
You believe in capital punishment (as did Jesus). Have you ever considered the number of people who were wrongfully executed, and their families shattered, by the wrong conviction. It happens a lot more often than you would think - especially if you are black. This is one area of secular morality that is still in flux, but around the world it is shifting away from execution. I applaud that movement. And, not that morality changes, it is not static.
If I read you correctly, you approve of the killing of witches under state sanction. Witches are no more than innocent women (very rarely men) who may have some unusual habits and who fall under the suspicion of their superstitious neighbours. I suppose you know that the Catholic church still exorcises demons - rather than sending the sufferer to a psychiatrist. This is the kind of mumbo-jumbo behaviour that I can not condone in a modern, moral country. Fortunately, most countries have laws against killing witches - if not against exorcism.
You also talk about idolatry. That is the one crime that is punished by genocide in the Old Testament. Yet, if your god is the only one, why would he be worried if someone believes in a non-existing god? That totally baffles me. If someone believes in some superstition I feel sorry for their silliness, but I feel no inclination at all to wipe them from the face of the earth, along with their wives, children and animals, the way your god did. If I acted like him, I would go around killing everyone who believes in any religion. I suppose I could write my own set of myths to justify it - I wonder how it would stand up in court?
@hdhondt: >And so were all the others I mentioned. In their opinion they followed Christ,
I think I've already made an attempt to answer that. The Bible itself says that it is foolishness to those who are perishing and that it can only be understood through illumination by God's Spirit because it is not just an ordinary book. So, an unbeliever cannot understand it. Many people take it and do awful things with it without understanding it. Jesus was and is a real person. He is alive. Those who follow Him, don't commit the atrocities that you seem to think they do. Those who commit them prove that they aren't His followers; although any one can stumble; but a true Christian won't consistently live an un-Christ-like life. In this world where words lose their meaning entirely, one has to be careful. The word Christian, unfortunately has largely lost its real meaning. For some people, Grandma was a Christian and they figure, well I'm not Jewish, not Muslim, not Hindus, so since Grandma was a Christian, so am I. The problem is that God has no grandchildren. You are either His child through a one on one personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or a rebel, criminal in His universal kingdom with a sure day in His court coming at the end of the age.
>. I suppose you know that the Catholic church still exorcises demons - rather than sending the sufferer to a psychiatrist.
A psychiatrist can't help a demon possessed man. Demons for your information are part of the fallen angels that rebelled against God with the Devil and were cast out of Heaven. Hell was created for the devil and those fallen angels, but all who refuse Christ will also wind up in the terrible place. There are people who just have mental problems, but there are also those with demons. I have personally encountered them.
There is nothing innocent about witchcraft, aka, devil worship and attempt to use evil, supernatural power, to use fear, manipulation and domination in order to attempt to obtain the selfish interests of the one attempting such an exercise.
>but modern, secular morality outperforms even his teachings.
Sorry, but not even close. However, you are convinced of that view and no point in arguing about it.
I don't have time to try to address all of this now, but may try to at a later time.
I think I've already made an attempt to answer that. The Bible itself says that it is foolishness to those who are perishing and that it can only be understood through illumination by God's Spirit because it is not just an ordinary book. So, an unbeliever cannot understand it. Many people take it and do awful things with it without understanding it. Jesus was and is a real person. He is alive. Those who follow Him, don't commit the atrocities that you seem to think they do. Those who commit them prove that they aren't His followers; although any one can stumble; but a true Christian won't consistently live an un-Christ-like life. In this world where words lose their meaning entirely, one has to be careful. The word Christian, unfortunately has largely lost its real meaning. For some people, Grandma was a Christian and they figure, well I'm not Jewish, not Muslim, not Hindus, so since Grandma was a Christian, so am I. The problem is that God has no grandchildren. You are either His child through a one on one personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or a rebel, criminal in His universal kingdom with a sure day in His court coming at the end of the age.
>. I suppose you know that the Catholic church still exorcises demons - rather than sending the sufferer to a psychiatrist.
A psychiatrist can't help a demon possessed man. Demons for your information are part of the fallen angels that rebelled against God with the Devil and were cast out of Heaven. Hell was created for the devil and those fallen angels, but all who refuse Christ will also wind up in the terrible place. There are people who just have mental problems, but there are also those with demons. I have personally encountered them.
There is nothing innocent about witchcraft, aka, devil worship and attempt to use evil, supernatural power, to use fear, manipulation and domination in order to attempt to obtain the selfish interests of the one attempting such an exercise.
>but modern, secular morality outperforms even his teachings.
Sorry, but not even close. However, you are convinced of that view and no point in arguing about it.
I don't have time to try to address all of this now, but may try to at a later time.
I think I've already made an attempt to answer that.No, you have not.
You've given me your interpretation of the Bible, but no reason why we should prefer yours over anyone else's. There are dozens (hundreds?) of interpretations for every verse in it, every one of them claiming to be the one and only correct one. Your interpretation is just one of those dozens.
The problem is that you want to believe in the literal truth of a book, in the face of all available evidence. For example, you believe in Noah's flood. If that really happened as written, then all geologists, astronomers, biologists, physicists, etc have been wrong for the last couple of hundred years. Chemists and physicians are also basing their theories on completely false assumptions. The first ideas about a very old earth date back to long before Darwin, and, until well into the 20th century, nearly all scientists were religious. A large proportion of them, in the US as elsewhere, still firmly believe in god. However, they also believe that, if god endowed them with intelligence, they should use it.
It's quite obvious that, if the flood happened as per your beliefs, then your mobile phone could not possibly work, as both quantum mechanics and general relativity would have to be complete bunkum. Do you use a mobile phone?
You may as well believe the earth is flat. The Bible is quite clear about that, contrary to all available evidence. Do you believe in the Bible? And in a flat earth?
In Islamic teaching the Quran is also considered the word of god but their translation differences are far less common and the content more strictly controlled.
This sort of data hygiene results in a text which is more likely to be accurate than one which has been allowed to filter through the agenda's of various (man-made) churches. For example: The Catholics removed all teaching about Jesus having siblings to maintain the concept of Mary being a virgin which is more than a 'minor' adjustment and no doubt you would tell me they were wrong to do so.
Which version of the bible are you quoting here and how can you be sure it hasn't been similarly adjusted?
This statement really made me question your morality:-
There is nothing innocent about witchcraft, aka, devil worship and attempt to use evil, supernatural power, to use fear, manipulation and domination in order to attempt to obtain the selfish interests of the one attempting such an exercise.
Please explain in what we you are *not* using fear, manipulation and domination in telling me that I am dammed, have fallen from the true path (which, by the way, Christianity holds I was never on in the first place due to 'original sin' being visited upon the children) and if god exists and is omniscient and omnipresent then he must be supernatural by definition. I suspect that you will now argue you are not doing this for selfish gain - yet, like all churches, the intention is to convert people to a belief system that supports and maintains their power.
Creationist vs Evolution debate:- Creationism (or Intelligent Design or whatever it's being marketed as these days) has *no* supporting evidence so can't be considered a theory and should therefore be taught on the basis of what it is:- a religious interpretation of the supernatural by well meaning people with no stronger call on being the truth than any of the other thousands of well meaning interpretations since people worshipped the sun.
Evolution has sufficient proof to be considered true by reasoning people but remains a 'theory' because those same people recognise that there is always room to find new evidence and it's the Creationists who are unwilling to accept the same level of criticism about their own thoughts.
This sort of data hygiene results in a text which is more likely to be accurate than one which has been allowed to filter through the agenda's of various (man-made) churches. For example: The Catholics removed all teaching about Jesus having siblings to maintain the concept of Mary being a virgin which is more than a 'minor' adjustment and no doubt you would tell me they were wrong to do so.
Which version of the bible are you quoting here and how can you be sure it hasn't been similarly adjusted?
This statement really made me question your morality:-
There is nothing innocent about witchcraft, aka, devil worship and attempt to use evil, supernatural power, to use fear, manipulation and domination in order to attempt to obtain the selfish interests of the one attempting such an exercise.
Please explain in what we you are *not* using fear, manipulation and domination in telling me that I am dammed, have fallen from the true path (which, by the way, Christianity holds I was never on in the first place due to 'original sin' being visited upon the children) and if god exists and is omniscient and omnipresent then he must be supernatural by definition. I suspect that you will now argue you are not doing this for selfish gain - yet, like all churches, the intention is to convert people to a belief system that supports and maintains their power.
Creationist vs Evolution debate:- Creationism (or Intelligent Design or whatever it's being marketed as these days) has *no* supporting evidence so can't be considered a theory and should therefore be taught on the basis of what it is:- a religious interpretation of the supernatural by well meaning people with no stronger call on being the truth than any of the other thousands of well meaning interpretations since people worshipped the sun.
Evolution has sufficient proof to be considered true by reasoning people but remains a 'theory' because those same people recognise that there is always room to find new evidence and it's the Creationists who are unwilling to accept the same level of criticism about their own thoughts.
Thanks, regmigrant. Creationists and the IDiots have never come up with one single scrap of evidence for their ideas. All they can do is point out things that science has not yet explained - or which they think are not yet explained, such as the evolution of blood clotting. They are also very good at lying about the truth and about what scientists have actually said - quote mining must have been invented for them.
Yes, evolution is true - as true as gravity. In both cases we may still be arguing about the fine details, but you had better not step out of a top floor window to test it.
I can respect someone who believes that god created the world 13.8 billion years ago, perhaps started life on earth, and even, if you insist, gave humans a soul. But to insist that the world was created 6000 years ago, and destroyed by god 2000 years later (without the Egyptians noticing that their buildings were flooded), is just sheer bloody-minded stupidity.
Yes, evolution is true - as true as gravity. In both cases we may still be arguing about the fine details, but you had better not step out of a top floor window to test it.
I can respect someone who believes that god created the world 13.8 billion years ago, perhaps started life on earth, and even, if you insist, gave humans a soul. But to insist that the world was created 6000 years ago, and destroyed by god 2000 years later (without the Egyptians noticing that their buildings were flooded), is just sheer bloody-minded stupidity.
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