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PC will not stay shut down

Posted on 2016-08-18
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Last Modified: 2016-08-31
Hi PC hardware experts,

I use an old HP Compaq DC7700 Small Form Factor desktop PC running WinXP Pro, and for years it has had this problem where, if I do a shutdown, it will shut down and completely stop, but about 1-2 secs later it will start up again.  So, I have to quickly power it off at the wall as soon as I hear it stop, to avoid it restarting.  After that, if I come back later that day, and turn it on at the wall, it will usually require me to press the power button for it to start up, but if it's been off overnight, and I turn it on at the wall the next day, it will always start up (after about 1-2 secs) without me having to press the power button.

Is this likely to be a problem with the power button (micro switch?), or what?  (I don't think it's the power supply, because I've just replaced that (the old one died) and the problem still happens.)

Thanks.
tel2
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Question by:tel2
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by:John Hurst
John Hurst earned 110 total points
ID: 41761710
Go into the BIOS and see if Wake on LAN, Wake on Ring, Wake on any such setting is enabled. Disable wake on anything, exit BIOS, restart, and when fully started, shut down properly.

Does that work?
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by:tel2
ID: 41761736
Thanks for your lightning-fast response, John.

I pressed F10 at startup to see the BIOS and here are the settings which looks most relevant.  I have NOT changed any yet.
Power

  OS Power Management
    Runtime Power Management        Enable
    ACPI S3 Hard Disk Reset         Disable
    ACPI S3 PS2 Mouse Wake Up       Disable
    USB Wake on Device Insertion    Disable
    Unique Sleep State Blink Rates  Disable

  Hardware Power Management
    SATA Power Management           Enable


Advanced

  Power-On Options
    ...etc...
    WOL After Power Loss            Disable               [I assume this is what you're talking about?]
    Rewrite Wake Up Boot Source     Local Hard Drive
    After Power Loss                Off

  BIOS Power On
    Sunday                          Disable
    ...etc...
    Saturday                        Disable
    Time (hh:mm)                    00:00

  Device Options
    ...etc...
    S5 Wake on LAN                  Disable               [I assume this is what you're talking about?]
    ...etc...

Open in new window

Anything there that you'd like me to try changing?

TRS
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by:John Hurst
John Hurst earned 110 total points
ID: 41761799
The BIOS settings look fine.

Is this likely to be a problem with the power button (micro switch?),  <-- That is a possibility if it is sticking. Can you replace it? They are not expensive.
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by:tel2
ID: 41761804
I may be able to, John.

Can anyone else confirm whether the power button (micro switch?) is the likely cause?

tel2
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by:tel2
ID: 41761807
Can you recommend a cheap source of this part, John?  And how will I identify it?  Part number?

I'm in New Zealand but sometimes I buy from eBay.
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41761809
I use my local electronic walk in shops in Toronto for this.
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by:tel2
ID: 41761812
Well pop in and get one for me, could ya John?   8)

Is this what I'd need, if the the power button is the culprit?
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41761815
That looks like it.

There are other kinds (retrofit) from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=pc+power+microswitch
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by:tel2
ID: 41761818
Yes, but if you pick one of those, how do you know which ones will be compatible (size, etc)?
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41761819
They need a 240 Volt rating (insulation and contacts) and about 3 Amp capacity.

Do you have a local PC repair shop. That is probably the best place to go.
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41761828
Another reason to visit your PC shop is that the switch may be very low voltage and current, just making contact for the circuitry in the power supply.
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by:tel2
ID: 41761829
Yes, we have PC repair shops here.

But if I was to buy from the Amazon link you gave me, how do I know if it will be the right size?  That's what I was asking before.
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41761830
I got thinking and the Amazon stuff is for operating the circuit. This is probably not what you want. Your photo above is the right part.
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by:tel2
ID: 41761836
OK John.

Let's see what others say about whether the power switch is the likely culprit.
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41761837
I cannot be sure it is the switch, but it does not appear to be the BIOS, so switch is the next likely candidate.
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by:nobus
nobus earned 80 total points
ID: 41762014
take a picture of the motherboard and post it here
it is usually due to bad capacitors - so look for bulging and leaking ones
this week there was another  of these with that problem

**sometimes a low bios battery can cause this too - check it -it should read 3V and is a CR2032 type about 1$ to replace
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by:tel2
ID: 41762066
Thanks for that, nobus.

> "take a picture of the motherboard and post it here
> it is usually due to bad capacitors - so look for bulging and leaking ones"

The PC does have 2 dodgy looking caps.  I noticed them when I took it apart because of a dead power supply.  Then rindi pointed it out, and you did too, about a day ago, but feel free to have another look if you like.
If you go to this question you will see the mother board at DSCF1956.JPG which is at the bottom of my original post.
Would you know if faulty caps in those locations are likely to cause this problem, nobus?

> "this week there was another  of these with that problem"
Could you link me to that question, please?

> "**sometimes a low bios battery can cause this too - check it -it should read 3V and is a CR2032 type about 1$ to replace"
OK - I must check that sometime.

tel2
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by:nobus
ID: 41762282
they cause problems everywhere
and when you have a couple bad ones - best procedure is to replace them all
here all the info :  http://www.badcaps.net/
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by:William Fulks
ID: 41762940
I see a couple of puffed out caps in the middle of the board. Given the age of this PC, if I were you I wouldn't put much money into trying to fix it up because you might break something else. If ALL it does is not shut down, it's almost not worth worrying about.

Make sure you are backing up any data that is on there, in case you need it.
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by:tel2
ID: 41763179
Hi nobus,
Thanks for that.

Hi William,
> "I see a couple of puffed out caps in the middle of the board"
Yes, I noticed them too, then rindi did, then nobus did, and now that you have I guess it's confirmed.  8)
Thanks for your other tips.
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by:tel2
ID: 41763375
I checked the voltage on the BIOS battery and it was 2.93V, so I replaced it (the new one read 3.33V).  Didn't solve the restarting problem, though.

If I ever do decide to replace the caps, I'd like to know how to remove the mother board.  I see the steps listed here in the HP Compaq dc7700 Business Desktop PC Service Reference Guide, 1st Edition, in section 7.19, but there's nothing quite like a video showing how to do it.  I can't yet find anything on YouTube about HP DC7700 SFF mother board removal.  Any suggestions on videos for this, or very similar machines?

tel2
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by:nobus
nobus earned 80 total points
ID: 41763401
normally, it consiosts of :
-disconnecting all power plugs from the board + all device plugs (sata  - front panel, usb
-remove the screws that fix the mobo

that's about it
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by:dbrunton
dbrunton earned 40 total points
ID: 41763578
For these things if they are anything like an Optiplex SFF you remove all drives and clutter inside the box.

Then unscrew the motherboard fixing screws.  You will probably find the board comes out with a metal plate attached to the bottom of it and this may include the backplate or part of it as well.
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by:joinaunion
ID: 41764587
Does disabling automatic restart solve the issue? Uncheck automatically restart.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/320299

Can you also post event logs.
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by:tel2
ID: 41764648
Thanks for that, joinaunion.

I'll try that and see how it goes over a few days perhaps.

If that fails, we might talk about event logs.
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by:tel2
ID: 41764748
Hi joinaunion,

I unticked that "Automatically restart" option, but the PC still sometimes restarts when I hybernate it.  Haven't tried a full shut down yet, but don't think I need to, do I?

Do you still want to see event logs?  What do you want exactly, and how should I generate it?

tel2
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by:nobus
ID: 41764828
did you replace the caps yet?  even if they are not the cause ( which i doubt) they still need to be replaced
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by:joinaunion
ID: 41765941
Does it do a full restart or just goes back to windows?

To view events. Click Start, click Control Panel, double-click Administrative Tools, and then double-click Event Viewer.

Take a look  under system and application for anything that may stand out critical errors.
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41765955
From all the descriptions so far it looks more like a hardware issue than software.
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by:tel2
ID: 41766106
Hi dbrunton,
Thanks for the tips on mother board removal.

Hi nobus,
Thanks for the tips on mother board removal.
> "did you replace the caps yet?  even if they are not the cause ( which i doubt) they still need to be replaced"
No, I don't yet want to take the risk of taking the mother board out, etc, lest I cause some other problem.  I'm just checking off other options at this stage.  Probably the cap issue will wait until I have a more serious problem (e.g. a cap explodes and stops the PC from working completely), then I'll have less to lose if I screw up.

Hi joinaunion,
> "Does it do a full restart or just goes back to windows?"
I'm not sure what you mean.  When I shut down or hibernate it, about 1-2 secs after it completely stops, it starts up again, and goes back to Windows...sometimes.  Other times it stays shut down.
> "Take a look  under system and application for anything that may stand out critical errors."
I checked both System and Application and both have only "Information" events for the last few days, but the restarting problem has happened even yesterday.

Dear John (don't worry, this is not a traditional "dear John" letter),
> "From all the descriptions so far it looks more like a hardware issue than software."
I agree.  For starters, it's not consistent, so I think it's more likely to be to do with capacitor charge levels or similar.  That doesn't mean I won't entertain other (save & easy to check) options, though.

tel2
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by:nobus
ID: 41766406
>>  No, I don't yet want to take the risk   <<   it seems you don't understand
repairing windows on bad hardware will only result in more trouble
imo -it's the first thing to do, and it is fairly easy
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by:tel2
ID: 41766540
Hi nobus,

> "it seems you don't understand repairing windows on bad hardware will only result in more trouble"
You're absolutely right that I don't understand it, nobus.  I don't know if there's a software problem causing this issue yet (I think it's unlikely), but if there is, how would fixing it cause any more trouble than I already have?  Please describe a scenario that demonstrates what you're trying to say.

> "imo -it's the first thing to do, and it is fairly easy"
A lot of things seem easy to those who have done them many times.  I haven't ever removed a mother board.  A lot could go wrong for a newbie, and I could find it very hard to find and fix any problems I might cause, which could leave me without a machine.  Which is why I'd rather leave it until it dies and I've got little to lose in attempting to fix it.
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by:nobus
ID: 41766721
if a disk, or disk controller is bad - and you do a disk check -  the result is an unusable disk drive in most cases
if the caps make your cpu output corrupt - what will be the result?  i don't know, but i know it won't be good

if you're afraid of removing the mother board - ask somebody with experience, and assist him to learn what and how

or have a shop remove it
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by:William Fulks
ID: 41767010
Is there any particular reason you need a Windows XP machine?

I am of the opinion that when a PC reaches a certain age, it's better AND cheaper to just replace it if problems arise. You've already got a motherboard failure in the works, and since it is a Compaq the Windows license is tied to the hardware meaning you will have to buy a replacement MB from Compaq (at top dollar, I am sure) or buy an off-brand MB and then have to buy a new Windows license. Plus you still have to install it in with all the other old hardware.

Given that Microsoft no longer supports XP and it's generally considered a security risk if used online, I would go ahead and just buy a whole new PC and be done with it UNLESS you are stuck using some kind of legacy application that only works in XP.
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by:joinaunion
joinaunion earned 270 total points
ID: 41767666
Can you open up your command prompt and copy and paste this command hit enter.
powercfg -devicequery wake_armed

What is on the list?
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by:tel2
ID: 41767816
Hi nobus,

In that case, I think this statement of yours:
> "repairing windows on bad hardware will only result in more trouble"
is a bit overstated, and could probably be more accurately be worded something like this:
  "repairing windows when you have some bad hardware could possibly result in more trouble, if that hardware is stressed by the software change that you make".
But if, for example, the problem was the "Automatically restart" check box that joinaunion suggested, then I hardly think that is going to add any extra stress to the caps.  I expect things like watching a video clip would add a lot more stress, depending on where the caps are in the circuit, but I do that almost every day anyway.

Hi William,
I don't think I have any WinXP specific software, and I know new Windows versions can (often) run old software in a compatibility mode anyway.  This PC was given to me 2nd hand, when someone was upgrading.  I don't want to spend on a replacement PC at this stage, because in general it runs well.  If I'm not given another, I may have to buy one someday, but in general, the less often I change PCs, the less often I have to buy one, and the less it costs me.  I won't be paying for a new MB for it.  If I can't sort the problems myself (e.g. replacing caps when they die), I will look for a different PC.  I am aware there are WinXP security issues, and I know that has the potential of resulting in cost, thanks.

Hi joinaquery,
The output of:
    powercfg -devicequery wake_armed
is:
    Intel(R) 82566DM Gigabit Network Connection
Would you like me to try disconnecting the Ethernet cable, and then shut down to see if it restarts?

tel2
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41767820
Having the Ethernet connected or not should not affect shut down (at least it never has for me or clients).
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by:tel2
ID: 41767824
But could it affect start up after shut down, John?  For example, isn't that how Wake On LAN works?
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41767827
Only if packets are being sent out.

Try unplugging the cable for sure. It cannot hurt to try.
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by:tel2
ID: 41767840
Sent out by what?  The PC when it's in the shut down state???
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41767842
Once shut down, the PC won't send, but Wake on LAN packets must come from a distinct server.

Try disconnecting the cable.
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by:tel2
ID: 41767913
The problem is, John, the restart issue is not currently very consistently reproducible.  Some days ago when I was testing it, it stayed shut down when I did a few tests, but the next day the problem recurred.  Most days I don't even get to know whether it will stay shut down, because I power it off at the wall before it gets a chance to restart.  Anyway, I'll try it sometime, but I'd like to see what joinaunion has to say about the results of that command I ran for him.
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41767921
The problem  ...  restart issue is not currently very consistently reproducible  <-- Almost for sure hardware (which can be intermittent).

Is the machine worth saving?
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by:tel2
ID: 41767925
Hi John,

> "The problem  ...  restart issue is not currently very consistently reproducible  <-- Almost for sure hardware (which can be intermittent)."

I know.  We've been through that, in a post above where you said:

> "From all the descriptions so far it looks more like a hardware issue than software."

And I responded:

"I agree.  For starters, it's not consistent, so I think it's more likely to be to do with capacitor charge levels or similar.  That doesn't mean I won't entertain other (safe & easy to check) options, though."

> "Is the machine worth saving?"
From my perspective, yes.  It is currently working fine except it restarts by itself 1-2 secs after shut down OR power on at the wall, sometimes.  That is a minor inconvenience for me, but I thought I'd ask EE to see if there was an easy fix.

Now if we can just wait to see what joinaunion has to say, that would be great.

tel2
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by:nobus
ID: 41768238
since you don't seem to follow my suggestions - i won't continue - this is a waste of time
good luck!
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by:
joinaunion earned 270 total points
ID: 41769374
Can you go to device manager and select network adapters then the  intel device and right click select properties then select power management tab and uncheck any wake on lan function.

If you don't see this on power management tab select advanced tab and under property select each wake on function and on the right under value select to disable.

You also may need to disable wake on functions in your bios also.

After you have disabled all wake on functions reboot and re run above command.
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by:joinaunion
ID: 41769401
Forgot to ask. What are your power options set to? Go to contol panel and select power options. On the hibernate tab what is selected?
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by:tel2
ID: 41769508
Hi nobus,
As stated above, I followed your battery change suggestion, and I'm bearing in mind your other suggestions, but before I follow anyone's advice, I need to decide what makes sense to me, plus the time, risks & costs that may be involved, (and that includes the option of getting someone else to remove & reinstall my mother board while I watch).  Your analysis of these (i.e. what makes sense, time, risks & costs) will be different from mine.  I haven't followed my own suggestion of a faulty power button (which John agreed is a possible cause), either.  I appreciate your time & advice, and thank you for your help, nobus.  I'm not asking or expecting any more input from you for this question.


Hi joinaunion,
I found 2 options that were checked under Power Management for the Gigabit Connection:
    - Wake on Detected Packet
    - Wake on Magic Packet
(See screen shot attached, from before I made any changes.)
After unchecking both of those, the command you gave me now gives this output:
    NONE

The Hibernate tab just has one option, i.e. "Enable hibernation", and it was checked already, and I've left it that way.
(See screen shot attached.)
But note that this problem occurs whether I shut down, hibernate or sleep the PC, so I doubt any hibernation options are relevant.

The most relevant looking BIOS settings are listed in post #41761736 above, but I posted that list before I changed the 3V battery.  The BIOS settings seem to have been cleared/defaulted immediately after I changed the battery, so I'll have to review these.

And I'll also do some testing and get back to you.

Thanks.
tel2
EE-HP-DC7700-SFF-Network-Power-Manag.png
EE-HP-DC7700-SFF-Hibernate.png
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by:joinaunion
joinaunion earned 270 total points
ID: 41770870
You may also want to daownload Hp diagnostics iso. You will need to burn the image to cd then boot from the cd to run diagnostics. Let us know the results.
http://h20564.www2.hp.com/hpsc/swd/public/detail?sp4ts.oid=3232101&swItemId=ir_45591_1&swEnvOid=1093#tab1
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by:tel2
ID: 41775498
Hi joinaunion,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

After unchecking "Wake on Detected Packet" & "Wake on Magic Packet" by your suggestion, I noticed that the problem of the PC starting by itself seemed to stop happening, thank you!  But I wanted to allow a good amount of time to see if this was consistent.

In all those days there is only 1 time where I noticed the problem, and that was during one of the many times I left it in Stand By mode.  I was not even using the PC, but I was close to it, and then it started up by itself.

Today I had another look at the BIOS settings, and noticed 2 settings had changed from those listed in my post #41761736 (above), presumably due to the battery removal.  They were:
Power

  OS Power Management
    ACPI S3 PS2 Mouse Wake Up       Enable  (I've now changed this back to Disable)

Advanced

  Power-On Options
  Device Options
    ...etc...
    S5 Wake on LAN                  Enable  (I've now changed this back to Disable)
    ...etc...

Open in new window

So I'm hoping that one of those BIOS settings was responsible for the 1 exception to the otherwise perfect record.  Thanks for the diagnostics link.  I don't think I'll bother with it at this stage though, because the problem is possibly fixed already.

BTW, I know BIOS settings can be backed up, and I see the option for that in the menus, but for my future reference, if the battery is changed quickly enough does BIOS generally retain its settings (e.g. is there a capacitor which feeds power to the BIOS for a while)?  I probably had the battery out for about 2 mins.

tel2
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by:John Hurst
ID: 41775499
BIOS settings were one of the first things mentioned here. Please let us know if they have fixed your problem.
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by:tel2
ID: 41775533
> "BIOS settings were one of the first things mentioned here."
I know they were, John.  You suggested checking them.  Allow me to summarise the above posts for you:

As I have indicated in 2 posts above, BIOS settings seem to have gone back to defaults when I changed the 3V battery as per nobus's suggestion.  (I know this because of the messages which came up when I started the PC after replacing the battery.)
The automatic start problem continued to happen after that, until I unchecked the WinXP settings: "Wake on Detected Packet" & "Wake on Magic Packet" as per joinaunion's suggestion.
There's been only 1 exception to the perfect record since then, and I'm hoping that that is now fixed by my returning the BIOS settings to what they were before I opened this ticket.
(Also yesterday I tried temporarily re-checking those 2 settings, and testing again with Stand By mode, and it failed all 3 tests, so I unchecked them again and now my tests succeed again.)

> "Please let us know if they have fixed your problem."
Now that the problem occurs so rarely, it will be extremely difficult for me to confirm whether today's BIOS changes (back to what they used to be) have at all contributed to resolving this problem.  But what we do know is, I still had the problem when I listed the BIOS settings for you in post #41761736, and you have confirmed that those settings were OK.

I suggest you have a careful read through the history of this question if that's still not clear, or ask me if you still aren't clear on something after that.

Meanwhile, I'll wait to see if anyone can answer the question at the bottom of my previous post about changing batteries.

tel2
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by:John Hurst
John Hurst earned 110 total points
ID: 41775536
is there a capacitor which feeds power to the BIOS for a while)?  I probably had the battery out for about 2 mins.

I cannot say for sure without a circuit diagram but probably not. Why? You can change the battery on any machine without losing BIOS because it is largely or all firmware. A battery is low impedance and a capacitor feeding that would drain quite quickly.
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by:joinaunion
joinaunion earned 270 total points
ID: 41776894
As per the technical guide if the battery is removed the cmos settings will be cleared and you will have to either back up before removing or change the settings back to the way they were before removal. As stated in technical guide on page 6-29 (battery removal)
http://h20566.www2.hp.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?sp4ts.oid=3232028&docLocale=en_US&docId=emr_na-c00771559

I'm glad that things are working better for you now.
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Author Closing Comment

by:tel2
ID: 41777492
Thanks very much for all your help, guys, especially joinaunion who seems to have found the cause (or at least the main cause).  And your last post was the nicest way I've been told to RTFM for a while, joinaunion.  Sorry - it didn't cross my mind that it would be in there, but it should have.

I've tried to allocate points in proportion to how useful/educational each post was for me.

Thanks.
tel2
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by:joinaunion
ID: 41778724
Glad to have helped you :)
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