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PowerPoint not providing access to all installed fonts within a family

Posted on 2016-08-30
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Last Modified: 2016-10-02
I received a PowerPoint deck which uses some custom fonts. The fonts in question are part of a family called Titillium Web which is available from Google Fonts.

So I downloaded the TTF font pack and installed it in Windows 10 as per this screenshot:
Font family installed in Windows Control PanelBut when I opened the provided deck in PowerPoint 2016 (PC), I can only see that "Titillium" is installed and none of the sub-fonts of the family appear in the PowerPoint UI:
Font family not available in PowerPointThis then causes the text on the slide with one of the sub-fonts (Titillium Web SemiBold) set to be replaced with Arial.

Why is PowerPoint not providing access to the full set of fonts within the family?
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Question by:Jamie Garroch
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by:xtermie
xtermie earned 125 total points
ID: 41776363
The Italic, Bold etc will be applied once you select the Titillium Web font and apply a bold effect on it.
These wont show in your drop down list in powerpoint as they are variations of the main font (Titillium Web for example), plus some effect your apply to it.
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by:Jamie Garroch
ID: 41776481
Thanks xtermie. I'm not sure that is the complete picture. For example, if I look at the font drop down in PowerPoint, I see 8 sub-fonts listed in the Sego UI family:
Segoe font family in PowerPointI'm then not sure your answer addresses the second screenshot I provided in my original question whereby the deck I received has some text set to use the SemiBold variant yet the text is not being rendered on the slide with the font family at all but Arial and the absence of the "TT" icon in the list would indicate that the SemiBold font is missing, which it's not. Finally, if I use VBA to check the name property of the text that is not rendering correctly, I get this:
?ActiveWindow.Selection.ShapeRange(1).TextFrame2.TextRange.Font.Name
Titillium Web SemiBold

Open in new window

It seems that there is more to this than meets the eye?
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by:xtermie
ID: 41776531
Can you check and see if these are all TrueType (TT) fonts?  

You can also try to clear the Font  caches and check the results:

To do this:

1.       Quit all Office applications.

2.       Click Go then choose Home.

3.       Open Library\Preferences\Microsoft\Office 2011 folder and click the Office Font Cache for 2011 files.
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by:Jamie Garroch
ID: 41776568
Yes, all TTF files as per this screenshot in Windows 10 File Explorer, licensed under the SIL Open Font License:
Titillium font files in Windows 10 File ExplorerI can't clear font caches as described on the PC platform (Windows 10 x64 + MSO 2016 x32).
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by:xtermie
ID: 41777640
Also another method would be to opened Word as that rebuilds the Font list. Exit Word, Open PowerPoint...All fonts should show show up in Powerpoint now
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by:xtermie
ID: 41777644
Can you please try this for Windows 10:

  1. Press and hold the "Windows" key (located between the left "Ctrl" and "Alt" keys), then tap the "E" key to open Windows Explorer.
  2. Double-click on your local hard drive, where the operating system is installed in the left pane, then double-click to expand the "Windows" directory. Double-click on the "System32" folder.
  3. Right-click on "Fntcache.dat" in the right pane of the Windows Explorer window and choose "Delete." Click the "Yes" button to confirm the deletion.
  4. Close the Windows Explorer window and restart your computer.

I've tried it on my Windows 10 x64 + MSO 2016 x32 device and the instructions work.
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by:Jamie Garroch
ID: 41777804
I tried both the Word and FNTCACHE.DAT removal methods (the cache file was rebuilt and remaind the same size as the one I removed) and I still only see one font in the PowerPoint and Word UIs for the Titillium family. Even more curious is that Word shows the single Titillium font with the "O" icon whilst PowerPoint shows it with the "TT" icon!

I have attached a test deck showing the issue and a link to the font pack as EE won't allow me to upload a zip file containing ttf files.

Titillium-font-test.pptx
https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Titillium+Web
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by:DansDadUK
ID: 41777962
I agree with the comment from @xtermie that "... Italic, Bold etc will be applied once you select the ... font and apply ... effect on it ...".

The difficulty is that Word (and I assume other Office applications) only "know about" Regular, Italic, Bold and BoldItalic variants of a particular font "family".

So where a family has more than the four variants, how does Word decide how to choose four out of those on offer - I don't yet know the answer to this question.

There is obviously some sort of algorithm, since the Arial font family has more than four variants, but (even though they all have the same "family" name) Word manages to group these nine fonts (on my Windows 10 Pro 64-bit system with Office 2013) as:

Arial - Regular, Italic, Bold and BoldItalic variants
Arial Narrow - Regular, Italic, Bold and BoldItalic variants
Arial Black - Regular only

Also shown separately (as different "families", with only one variant each) are: - Arial Rounded MT Bold, Arial Unicode MS, Arial_Mono

But Word doesn't appear to "group" the eleven variants of the fonts with family name Titillium Web into separate groups, so how is it supposed to select four to match its standard set of four style variants?
... and why doesn't it do a similar "grouping" to that with Arial - is it to do with the 'root' of the "full font name", or what?


As regards OpenType versus TrueType: OpenType is the modern 'packaging' of a font - it can contain a font which uses TrueType outlines, or a font which uses (PostScript) Type 1 outlines.
I guess that Word and Excel are only interested in fonts with TrueType rendering, and Excel still shows it as such, whilst Word shows the 'packaging' name?
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by:Echo_S
Echo_S earned 125 total points
ID: 41778265
Not sure what I can contribute here, but I do know that with some fonts, when you apply bold and/or italic via the B/I buttons, some fonts will then use the bold or italic or bold italic font face. (Georgia does this.)

With other fonts, the program applies a fake machine bold or machine slant rather than using the bold/italic etc font face. This is because of how the font was constructed -- it's apparently an assignment in the font code. With these fonts, you have to manually select the fonts from the font dropdown.

I'm trying to ping one of my contacts to possibly learn more. I don't know why the other Titillium fonts aren't showing in your dropdown or why they're being substituted.
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by:Echo_S
ID: 41778272
Jamie, clarification needed.

"This then causes the text on the slide with one of the sub-fonts (Titillium Web SemiBold) set to be replaced with Arial."

So you're receiving the deck from someone, yes? And it's as though Titillium is embedded but the subfonts are not, correct? That could again be how the font itself is constructed.

Also, if the other subfonts weren't used in the deck, then they wouldn't show up in the dropdown.
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by:Jamie Garroch
ID: 41778426
Hi Echo.

I am receiving the deck from a third party - yes. When checking the Save Options, the Embed fonts in the file option is not checked. Based on the client's brand guide, I downloaded and installed the full family of Titillium Web fonts. When I then rebooted Windows and opened the deck in question, the sub title of the first slide shows that the font is set to Titillium Web SemiBold (in the PowerPoint font drop down combo box) but the TT icon isn't present for it and the text in the placeholder is rendered with the theme font which is Arial.

What's odd is that I assume the third party isn't having this issue as I've also got a video export of the same deck where the SemiBold font is rendering as expected. I need to check this assumption.

Let me also go dig out one of my ancient font tools to see if I can see anything in the way the family is built.
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by:Echo_S
ID: 41778636
> What's odd is that I assume the third party isn't having this issue as I've also got a video export of the same deck where the SemiBold font is rendering as expected.

Yeah, that's weird.
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by:DansDadUK
ID: 41779868
No idea about how "embedded fonts" may or may not contribute to the issue, just a bit more research on the naming and "grouping" of fonts:

The Microsoft Typography web site includes a specification (not for the faint-hearted) of the OpenType / TrueType format.

This includes a page describing the name table, which details the Name IDs and their uses; it states that "... Up to four fonts can share the Font Family name, forming a font style linking group (regular, italic, bold, bold italic - as defined by OS/2.fsSelection bit settings) ...".

That page links to another page which gives an example (for the Arial font) of how those Identifiers should be used:

Extract from name ID example
I've looked at the various fonts in the TitilliumWeb set, and constructed a similar table of the identifiers used (for Windows/Unicode-BMP (platform/encoding 3/1):

name IDs for Titillium fonts
As you can see, all of the Titillium fonts have the same ID=1 value, which contravenes the guidance (whereas the Arial family has one value for the base set of four, a different value for the 'Narrow' set, and a third value for the 'Black' variant).

This may explain why Office applications find it difficult to select a set of four (regular, italic, bold, bold italic) fonts from the Titillium set, and don't show the font with separate 'subsets' (as happens with Arial).
 
I haven't yet looked at the flag values in the OS/2 and head tables, as per the second part of the Arial example.
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by:Jamie Garroch
ID: 41779897
[posted before I saw the most recent comment from DansDadUK above]

This might start to shed some light. I used FontCreator (for the PC) to look at some of the properties of Segoe Semibold (which does show multiple fonts in the PowerPoint UI) and Titillium SemiBold (which only shows the 'master' regular font in the UI). The Typographic Family field in the second pair of  screenshots below might be something to do with it. Not sure if I can write properties to the fonts and retest but will have a try next.

ID Font Properties for Segoe Semibold Regular:
ID Font Properties for Segoe Semibold Regular
ID Font Properties for Titillium Web Semibold:
ID Font Properties for Titillium Web Semibold
Extended Font Properties for Segoe Semibold Regular:
Extended Font Properties for Segoe Semibold Regular
Extended Font Properties for Titillium Web Semibold: (note Typographic Family field is empty)
Extended Font Properties for Titillium Web Semibold
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by:DansDadUK
ID: 41779916
@Jamie Garroch - I think that you're on the right track trying to perhaps change the ID values via a font editor.

If you do this and get things working, it would be a good idea to then feed this back to the Google fonts support team, perhaps?

I have an old (but probably not up-to-date version) of FontCreator - a very useful tool.

What I'm not sure about (perhaps because my version of the application is not the latest) is how the 'text box names' (as used in various FontCreator forms) map to the entries within the various relevant OpenType tables.
[My version (7.5.0 build 519) shows the "Typographic Family/SubFamily" as "Preferred Family/SubFamily" entries (on the Extended tab)].
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by:DansDadUK
ID: 41781560
... if i was changing the properties, this would be my starting point:

Suggested revised ID values
I've changed the list order (compared with the original table) to 'group' the suggested subsets.

I haven't looked in to the settings of the fsSelection tags (Italic, Bold, Regular) in the OS/2 table - I assume that these probably map to the settings of the Bold and Italic check-boxes on the Identification tab of the FontCreator Properties dialogue.
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Accepted Solution

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DansDadUK earned 250 total points
ID: 41783689
To satisfy my curiosity, I created copies of the Titillium font files, then modified their 'name identifier' properties as per my previous response (except that I changed the 'root' name to "TitilliumX Web" instead of "Titillium Web").

After 'installing' the new fonts, in my Word 2013 application, the font drop-down box now shows:

Word 2013 font drop-down box
Excel 2013 and PowerPoint 2013 also show the same fonts.

If I also install the original "Titillium Web" fonts, the drop-down box only shows one extra (OpenType) entry named "Titillium Web".
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by:Echo_S
ID: 41783817
Nicely done, DansDadUK.
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Author Closing Comment

by:Jamie Garroch
ID: 41783828
You beat me to it DansDadUK! Thanks everyone for spending time on this one.
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by:DansDadUK
ID: 41784570
I've reported the issue to Google Fonts, via the GitHub bug system: see https://github.com/google/fonts/issues/369
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by:Neutron Lively
ID: 41824795
@DansDadUK Hello! Can you upload a modified font and post us a link? I've tried modifying font properties myself but I keep having various issues. Thanx in advance!
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by:DansDadUK
ID: 41825302
Modified fonts sent privately.
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