Good SSD

I was looking at the Intel 545s as it seems to perform well in tests, but only 2.5 inch models seem to be available. It's meant to go into a desktop machine.
a. not sure about the connectors - is that likely to be a problem?
b. can you direct me to any other highly regarded SSDs? Smaller size is better as it's just for the OS
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CEHJAsked:
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dbruntonCommented:
SATA connector so no problem connecting it.  If you've got a 3.5 inch bay you can get a 2.5" caddy to take the SSD and fit in the 3.5" bay.  For example  https://www.amazon.com/2-5-3-5-Bay-SSD-Bracket/dp/B00AYJFXIQ something like this would do the job.

If you want an alternative look at the Samsung range of SSDs.  Especially the 850 ones.
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KimputerCommented:
SATA connectors are standard for the 2.5". I don't even use bays, just strong double sided tape, and a flat surface in the desktop inside. (The SSD is light enough to never move, even with frantic shaking of the desktop).

Alternatives are Intel, Samsung, but also Sandisk, Kingston, Mushkin. OCZ are good and sometimes more budget-conscience (though the price range is quite close these days).
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
I have a Samsung 950 or 960 NVM-e 1 TB SSD drive in my Lenovo ThinkPad and it has proven to be a very good drive.
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Jackie ManCommented:
There should be no problem in attached a 2.5" SSD in a 3.5" HDD slot. Just use screws and the mounting plate which comes with the SSD package and you should be fine.
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pgm554Commented:
Well ,there are Pcie m.2 adapters that plug director into a pcie slot on your mother board.
They are actually faster because of the use of the pcie buss.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIABMK5VM9045&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Connectors-_-9SIABMK5VM9045&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIo-nQleWd1wIVRbXACh0YDQ2bEAQYAyABEgJ2FfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Jackie ManCommented:
"Alternatives are Intel, Samsung, but also Sandisk, Kingston, Mushkin. OCZ are good and sometimes more budget-conscience (though the price range is quite close these days)."

I select Transcend SSD370s.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
I select Transcend SSD370s.
Have to confess i'm finding it tricky to compare benchmarks of that and the Intel SSD
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dbruntonCommented:
Review of the Transcend  https://www.anandtech.com/show/8792/transcend-ssd370-128gb-256gb-512gb-review

Probably any of the SSDs you can get now from the well known firms are pretty reasonable.

Jackie Man gave a list above.  I'd throw Crucial into that mix as well (I do run a Crucial SSD so I'd better stick up for them).

If you want performance you'd go with a Samsung.  Intel used to be known for performance but no so now.  Now they're just another SSD manufacturer.
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Jackie ManCommented:
It depends on your usage.

If your use case is only for a secondary storage, you can rely on benchmark solely.

However, if your use case is for primary storage for the OS, you need to read extensive reviews, and not just rely on benchmark as you need to dig out more on the possible problems in this use case.
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
dbrunton said "If you want performance you'd go with a Samsung"

My Samsung (having looked it up) is a model 961 and is for use as the primary operating system and programs. Very fast and very good.
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Jackie ManCommented:
Review of the Transcend  https://www.anandtech.com/show/8792/transcend-ssd370-128gb-256gb-512gb-review

Transcend SSD370 and SSD370s are different models and the difference is the CPU inside the SSD.
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nobusCommented:
i have used intel, Kingston, and samsung SSD's - all perform well, and some are even sold with the bay size adapter (kingston)
regarding the sata or m.2 solution - what system should it go on ?
for many m.2 drives, you need a special driver also
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Jackie ManCommented:
Agreed.

But m.2 SSD is much much faster.
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nobusCommented:
jackie - can you specify "much faster" ? Always good to know
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Jackie ManCommented:
SATA3 = 6Gb/s

m.2 SSD = 10Gb/s

m.2 SSD connects directly to the motherboard and is much much faster than SATA3 SSD.
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KimputerCommented:
Please note those are the max bandwidth and will NOT BE REACHED by the SSD chips itself (most consumer SSD's are rated around 500MB/s, which they themselves won't reach most of the time)
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nobusCommented:
and are the chips on SSD and m.2 drives the same? or different too ?
just trying to get it correct in my mind
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KimputerCommented:
With the rated speeds almost equal (as said, all current consumer SSD products are around the 500MB/s range), I'd say, they're not exactly the same, but very similar.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
So we're saying that PCIe SSDs potential extra bandwidth is academic, since the limit is the SSD chips themselves?
Also (connected), is the best SATA speed below or above the SSD chip speed?
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Jackie ManCommented:
Please note those are the max bandwidth and will NOT BE REACHED by the SSD chips itself (most consumer SSD's are rated around 500MB/s, which they themselves won't reach most of the time)

Agreed. But not totally agreed.

Why?

Technology changes very fast. Have a look at the M.2 SSD below and its Speeds are up to 1400MB/s read and 600MB/s write.

https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-HyperX-Predator-SHPM2280P2-240G/dp/B00V01C376

"SATA3 = 6Gb/s" means that its maximum speed will be around 750MB/s.

So we're saying that PCIe SSDs potential extra bandwidth is academic since the limit is the SSD chips themselves?

The limit is theoretical but you will feel the difference if money is not a problem. The bottleneck can be from the SSD or its connection and you need to look up the figures first.

Also (connected), is the best SATA speed below or above the SSD chip speed?

It depends whether your motherboard supports SATA Express or not.

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-3071709/ssd-sata-express-10gb-connector.html

For SATA Express, the connection is 10Gb/s (1250MB/s) instead of 6Gb/s (750MB/s) and it is the same speed for M.2 connection.

In short, if your M.2 SSD is a "consumer" level one, the best SATA speed (if you are using SATA Express) will be above the SSD chip speed.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
A bit more background: the idea is to run Debian as the OS on the SSD in THIS, leaving the original HD in place and using part of it for storage. Not quite sure exactly what buses we're dealing with here yet.
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KimputerCommented:
Any cheaper SSD will do for this case (an older PC). The cheaper ones are still quality (as long as it's a brand that's been mentioned here), and fast enough for you to see the speed increase.
Focusing on the best money can buy (extra fast and expensive SSD) is definitely a waste of money in this case.
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nobusCommented:
look for the kingston series - i bought several - and got the bay adapter with it
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Since it's an SFF case, it looks like a PCIe SSD might be more convenient

IH81M
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
My Samsung is both PCI-e and NVM-e
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Trouble is, that's about ten times the capacity i need
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
I never seem to have too much space, so perhaps that is not a huge issue
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
I never seem to have too much space, so perhaps that is not a huge issue
Well if you'd like to contribute to the client's budget, then it won't be an issue ;)
then you mount this drive on it....
That would increase the cost, wouldn't it?
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Jackie ManCommented:
Well if you'd like to contribute to the client's budget, then it won't be an issue ;)

Definitely agree.

Clients always want to do more with less.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Given that motherboard, i need to choose a good but cheap SSD that will fit. Contrary to what i was told, a normally SATA SSD won't really fit
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dbruntonCommented:
Why can't you use a 2.5" SSD?  Adapters are available to fit into a 3.5"  caddy.  Or you can fit into a 3.5" floppy drive bay.  Might need a bit of fiddling and gluing but it can be done.
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nobusCommented:
what about my suggestion above? is that what you want?
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Why can't you use a 2.5" SSD?  Adapters are available to fit into a 3.5"  caddy.  Or you can fit into a 3.5" floppy drive bay.  Might need a bit of fiddling and gluing but it can be done.
I possibly could, but it would be trickier and less practicable. I'll try to get a photo of the connected board later
what about my suggestion above? is that what you want?
A 128GB drive would be about the budget limit
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Jackie ManCommented:
What is the budget of your client (including your fee)?

Unless you waive your own fee, I will not recommend to go with 128gb SSD.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Don't forget the SSD is only for the OS (per the end of my question), not general storage
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nobusCommented:
yes, but he'lll want to install other applications as well
128 GB disk is already a rather low size for an os + installs - unless you start trimming everything down
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
I've got quite a lot of apps installed - probably many more than he'll installed. My usage on that:

goose@t410:/tmp$ du -hs /usr
4.7G	/usr

Open in new window

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nobusCommented:
that's chines to me  - english please?
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
All apps take up 4.7G
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Jackie ManCommented:
SSD Samsung NVMe SM951 128GB M.2 PCIe 3.0, 2000/650MBs, IOPS 300k/83K https://www.amazon.com/dp/B014FYUPVU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_2VZ.zbCZZPB42

Will the above one fit into the budget?
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
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Jackie ManCommented:
Agreed.

But you will have a problem to setup Debian OS on it without a workaround.

It is better to buy PM951 instead.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B01EOLHHJ2/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1509902789&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=SSD+Samsung++pm951&dpPl=1&dpID=412f4BO4nEL&ref=plSrch

I am not a Linux expert but I know setting a Linux OS needs to check about hardware compatibility first.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
But you will have a problem to setup Debian OS on it without a workaround.
Why so?
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Jackie ManCommented:
Why so?

If money and time is not a problem, try to find out whether your computer and the Debian distro can detect the m.2 SSD on boot after you have installed the OS.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Well i'm not sure why it wouldn't. I have a NUC with two m.2 SSDs here running Debian. If there's any problem at all, then i would have thought it would be a BIOS one but i didn't consider that likely either. That would be a worry
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Jackie ManCommented:
Agreed.

But there is always something we do not know until we have tried it.

If you have plenty of time to do troubleshooting, you can buy any one without checking compatibility.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
A prior problem is where it's going to go ;)
Here's the connected board
Connected board
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Gerald ConnollyCommented:
Jackie, you quoted these numbers for SATA

"For SATA Express, the connection is 10Gb/s (1250MB/s) instead of 6Gb/s (750MB/s) and it is the same speed for M.2 connection."

My understanding is that SATA uses 8b10b coding so bytes actually consume 10 bits on the bus, therefor 10Gb/s = 1000MB/s and 6Gb/s = 600MB/s
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Jackie ManCommented:
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Gerald ConnollyCommented:
But my quote was from an earlier post by you in this thread!

And your numbers are just the same as mine and i didnt need a calculator to work them out!
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Jackie ManCommented:
"But my quote was from an earlier post by you in this thread!

And your numbers are just the same as mine and i didnt need a calculator to work them out!"

You are correct. I just told you how I got the number.

Thanks for your correction.
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nobusCommented:
there's free space after the PS to fix it to the bottom with duct tape
m
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Thanks Nobus. I'm wondering where i'm going to connect it to though. Apologies for being so dim (not sodimm) but i'm more used to there being redundant cables that are already connected
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Jackie ManCommented:
You have a big CPU fan.

Under the fan, it is where a PCIe xi slot resides.

Can you take a photo showing the space under the fan?
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Well i think i might go normal SSD since i already have a 60GB Kingston 'SSDNow 300V'
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nobusCommented:
that's a nice one - i have used them too - and still use it
they use normal sata cables and power connecter; so all you need is a sata port and a normal sata power cable
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Yes, data connection is no problem. You can probably see the free orange (why?) SATA data connection in the bottom right of the board. Not so sure about the SATA power though
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nobusCommented:
what power connectors do you have?
you can Always install splitters, or adapter cables :
here they dare ask more than 5$ for    https://www.amazon.com/Molex-Power-SATA-Female-Adapter/dp/B000YJMB5Y
sata splitter :    https://www.startech.com/be/nl/Kabels/Voeding/Intern/4x-SATA-Voedingskabel-Splitter-Adapter~PYO4SATA
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
what power connectors do you have?
I'll have to have a closer look inside the case
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Looks like none spare. As you'll see below, the optical and hard drives are already using a SATA power splitter. Can i split again?

SATA power splittingHigher res mobo view
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Jackie ManCommented:
What is the watt of the PSU?
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nobusCommented:
sure you can split it further, or just buy a four way splitter
i'm sorry - but you never told me what power connectors you have - molex?  or sata?
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
What is the watt of the PSU?
I'll have to tell you when i'm next forced to open the case again. Opening it makes me nervous - there are 3 plastic tabs (which i just know will break off [one day]) fastening the cover for the control panel and then that panel just hangs (unless you support it carefully) by a think wire to the power button. Cheap
What's your motivation for asking if i may ask?

but you never told me what power connectors you have - molex?  or sata?
Have where? In the SATA storage devices, you can see at the top left of the first image of my last posting the SATA power connector. No molex anywhere afaics.  If i could find a male molex, i think i've got a female molex to SATA power cable here
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
sure you can split it further
If you look at what's going into the hard drive, can i, instead of plugging it into that hard drive, plug it into the 'Y' body of THIS and then use the Y arms to connect to that hard drive and my additional hard drive?
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nobusCommented:
so you have sata connectors why did'nt you say that?  from the image i can deduce it, but at best it's not sure
may i ask what's the difference with the cables i posted?
and the reason for asking the wattage of the power supply is that you must know how much power it can deliver, if you keep adding devcies, like disk drives

what SFF model is this?
***i have never broken plastic covers from SFF PC's up to now -  so i don't understand your remark
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
so you have sata connectors why did'nt you say that?
Sorry - i don't understand the question. We've been talking about SATA connections all along, but please say what you mean by your question

may i ask what's the difference with the cables i posted?
Again, i don't understand the question. Obviously, i need to buy in a particular market, so i need to establish whether the ones i can buy are suitable

and the reason for asking the wattage of the power supply is that you must know how much power it can deliver, if you keep adding devcies, like disk drives
Yes, i guessed so. I'm hoping the the addition of the Kingston SSDNow will not send the PSU over the edge, but i will check the rating later

what SFF model is this?
It's one of these: https://www.laptopsdirect.co.uk/lenovo_thinkstation_e73_sff_intel_core_i5-4460s_65w_2.90ghz_turbo_6mb_cache_10aw008quk/version.asp
***i have never broken plastic covers from SFF PC's up to now -  so i don't understand your remark
I'm not saying i'm a mechanical genius but i know a cheap and bad design when i see one. If the clips were metal, it might be different
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Thank you. The problem is that i'm no further forward
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Jackie ManCommented:
Normally, get the HDD out and put the SSD in is the way forward.
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nobusCommented:
or calculate the power you need here :  http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp      
you have a small power supply; but i assume it still will be able to handle it
if you have problems with the calculator -shoot!
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Normally, get the HDD out and put the SSD in is the way forward.
That's staying - to provide mainly archiving space

It occurs to me that there's info missing from my question: (i thought i'd linked another question to it) - namely that the SSD is an additional disk for the OS and apps only. The original HDD will stay, containing a largely unused Windows 10 plus a lot of other storage
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KimputerCommented:
I don't see what the problem is, if you have a free SATA port on the main board, just split power. Add disk (just stick it with double sided tape to where ever you can) and be done with it.
An SSD drive uses little energy, and a PSU from HP is over specified by many many watts. Only before adding a GPU do you have to take the PSU into account.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
I don't see what the problem is, if you have a free SATA port on the main board, just split power.
Yes, thank you. I'm looking for this kind of simple advice that doesn't raise other (and probably redundant) questions
THIS is what i just ordered. Should work shouldn't it?
An SSD drive uses little energy, and a PSU from HP is over specified by many many watts. Only before adding a GPU do you have to take the PSU into account.
Yes, that's what i thought - hence my comment above:
I'm hoping the the addition of the Kingston SSDNow will not send the PSU over the edge, but i will check the rating later
You must forgive my doubt and caution. This is relatively unfamiliar territory for me
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Jackie ManCommented:
Watt
The above is the results using the link for power calculator from nobus.

You can try it on yourself.

Anyway, assuming your mini pc is out of warranty, it is ok to try as normally you will not use all devices at the same time.
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KimputerCommented:
The cable you ordered should work just fine.
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
I think it would have done had i got one with right-angled connectors instead. Doh! Just not enough space in this case. I'm getting fed up with trying to squeeze things. I think i'm going to go for mini-pcie storage. At least i think that's what should go in the connectors on the bottom left of THIS picture
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Jackie ManCommented:
It is my earlier suggestion.

"Under the fan, it is where a PCIe x8 slot resides."
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Well i don't really want to have to go under anything at all. Actually, by the side of the fan, there's a PCIe16X and by the side of that are two PCIe1X
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
I'm wondering whether to close this question and reopen a continuation. I feel this has got stale and i'm getting increasingly concerned about not coming up with a solution.  Each way i turn i seem to have got .. erm .. boxed in
There's also the question of (if i ever do come up with an SSD that i can get into this case) whether the bios will boot from it - something i'm not going to find out until after i've bought one! Or maybe there is a way to find out.
Under the fan, it is where a PCIe xi slot resides.
What kind of SSD can i get in that? Will it boot?
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Jackie ManCommented:
Good question.

It depends on the BIOS.

"That is not the question. An add-in adaptor card has zero to do with being able to boot from a device. That is entirely down to UEFI* support, and any OROM present on the device you're trying to boot.

An adaptor will not magically allow you to boot an NVMe SSD on a system without NVMe support in UEFI, and any PCIe-to-M.2 adaptor will allow you to boot on a system with NVMe support. It is simply a passive electrical adaptor.

*No legacy BIOS to my knowledge is able to boot from an NVMe device."

Source: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/what-pcie-add-in-cards-can-boot-a-nvme-m-2-ssd.2498673/
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CEHJAuthor Commented:
Hope that's everyone in the split
I finally got a right angled sata power splitter and this worked find with the Kingston SSDNow. Just need to find some double-sided sticky pads from somewhere now. Thanks all
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JohnBusiness Consultant (Owner)Commented:
Thanks for the update and I am glad you have a drive you want.
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